Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?

[Double_Deuce]

Have you had the same problem with other nations's infantry? I've been playing some PBeM's and have been able to rout infantry in trenches, even those in woods hexes. It takes some concentrated fire but I have done it without artillery or armor support. I occasionally have a stubborn squad that hangs on but I can usually surpress him enough to get in close and take him out.

[DRG]

As Narwan said the issue of too Tough ( we've never had them called "Immortals" before ......) infantry comes up every now and again and every time we do we go back and runs some tests and in the end decide everything is exactly the way we wanted it to be. There will ALWAYS be cases where infantry holds on longer than what a player thinks is "normal" but if the game was simply BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead ) BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead ) BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead )

etc etc

the game would be predicatable and boring

I also fully agree with Narwan that..... "I think this is just a mater of tactics used". A Kv-1.... even 6 of them, are hardly big threats with their 76mm guns to dug in infantry. This is NOT "SP1". This is not a game set up to make the tank "king" where it destroys everything it it's path. You didn't include a save game for anyone to look so I have NO idea what your exact situation was but I have simuated it in tests ( Finn Infantry in woods with shell holes with 6 KV-1's) and I really don't see a problem. I ALSO do not see a problem with turning Infantry toughness down if you think they are too strong now. That option is NOT "useless" I just tested it and it works just fine.

I'm curious though. How many times have you played WinSPww2 so far ?

Don

[Nikolay_P_I]

have NO idea what your exact situation was but I have simuated it in tests ( Finn Infantry in woods with shell holes with 6 KV-1's) and I really don't see a problem. I ALSO do not see a problem with turning Infantry toughness down if you think they are too strong now. That option is NOT "useless" I just tested it and it works just fine.

I`m may send you my saves for each turn as examples. All thing exactly as first post says. SPWW2 with latest path. And yes, i`m save, set "inf.touch" in 30, play turn, load, set "inf. touch" in 250, play again - nothing changed. Only small reaction at 30 "inf.tough" as i`m may see - if infantry get hit and take losses - his losses heavier. IF it take hit, IF.

I'm curious though. How many times have you played WinSPww2 so far ?

Hmmm... It`s long, long story.

Long, long ago i`m played many campains with SP1 and SP2.
(And instantly threw in trash can SP3).

After this - i`m played several campain in MatrixGames SPWAW v7-v8. After several situation such as fired 2-3 152mm shell from KV-2 at germ.inf in 300m and infantry get NO ONE loses - i`m erase this game too.

Now i`m hear about windows version of SP1 and SP2. Download and play. After i`m get described situation - 6 KV-1 about ten turn don`t kill any finn.inf - i`m think - may be original SP1 forever ? :-)

[dlazov]

Nikolay,

I have been playing SPWW2 since version 5 and WinSPWW2 since it came out. Infantry are not immortal.

Just to prove a point do this.

Set Preferences to:
Battle Points 225
Map size 20x20

Do a One up Battle:
January 1940

Player 1: Soviet (Human, Human, Human)
Player 2: Finland (Computer, Human, Computer)
(the parens are the buttons top to bottom)

Soviet purchase 1 Heavy Tank Platoon and 1 Heavy Tank (Kv-1)
Finland purchase 1 Kivaari Joukkue (Infantry last, Heavy Infantry middle button) and just to be fair if you wish buy 2 Pst Miehet /Ski units with satchel charges.

That was a scary battle. I lost 3 of my KV-1's to imbolization and one lost it's main gun, but other then the damage I lost no tanks (of my 4 KV-1's) and only 3 men, where as I killed 33 Finns.

No uber Infantry here, Infantry is not immortal.

It's all about how you play the game.

[DRG]

Nikolay_P_I said:
I`m may send you my saves for each turn as examples. All thing exactly as first post says. SPWW2 with latest path. And yes, i`m save, set "inf.touch" in 30, play turn, load, set "inf. touch" in 250, play again - nothing changed.

Well that's very interesting. When I set infantry thoughness to 30 they die like flies in comparision to the standard 100% setting but you seem to suggest the same thing.........

Nikolay_P_I said:
Only small reaction at 30 "inf.tough" as i`m may see - if infantry get hit and take losses - his losses heavier. IF it take hit, IF.

So you DO see a change when it's turned down to 30. So why say "nothing changed"?

Just what exactly to you think you should be seeing ?

I'm curious ..... are you basing all of your opinions on what you think the game is doing or not doing by the "Hit chance" message reports that appear at the top of the screen?

Don

[Nikolay_P_I]

DRG said:
Well that's very interesting. When I set infantry thoughness to 30 they die like flies in comparision to the standard 100% setting but you seem to suggest the same thing.........

So you DO see a change when it's turned down to 30. So why say "nothing changed"?

Just what exactly to you think you should be seeing ?

I'm curious ..... are you basing all of your opinions on what you think the game is doing or not doing by the "Hit chance" message reports that appear at the top of the screen?

Yes, "inf. touch" DO changes. But i`m say this first - changes, which "inf.touch" do - not effective about this situation. Yes, witch "inf.touch" 30 infantry "dies as flies". On plain terrain. Or road. But witch any small entrechment - hit chance quite low.

May be add new preferences regulator for casual players ?

About "hit chance" - it no label "XX%" on screen in targeting time. It is "weapon fired"/"target hit" percentage.

And i`m have questions - is "hit chance report message" apply also for "splash" damage such as 152mm from KV-2 fired at digged infantry squadr or digged AT-gun ?

[MajorDisaster]

OO I like this discussion :-) I've been trying the last few battles of a German long campaign with inf now on 70% toughness on both sides, cos I got so bored with hammering 200 man Russian infantry charges across open ground, with tanks, MG's and heavy mortars and they're losing 3 men a turn. I ran out of HE trying to kill them off and theyre still taking pot shots at my guys who are in cover, while they're supposedly pinned or retreating, and have several tonnes of lead falling on them. I guess my guys were greener to start with and that might explain a bit of it, but now most of them arent and even at 70%, infantry are still pretty tough cookies, especially from close range, high calibre HE. Stationnary Stug42 fires 3 rounds with 105mm at Russian infantry section moving at full speed at 50mtrs which pins them and that's it. Surely someone would have at least got wounded? At least now they dont charge full tilt across a field, taking no casualties and still managing to surpress tanks at 300 metre + ranges.
I'm sure it varies a helluva lot depending on nation, time of combat, experience etc... Absolutely agree that no-one(?) wants a "Tank V Inf= Inf Wiped Out" game, so 30% would be going way too far - they'd all be dying out having a few rude words shouted at them. But as said, even at 70% they are still well hard :-) Right, that's my tupenny worth...

[DRG]

MajorDisaster said:
OO I like this discussion :-) I've been trying the last few battles of a German long campaign with inf now on 70% toughness on both sides, cos I got so bored with hammering 200 man Russian infantry charges across open ground, with tanks, MG's and heavy mortars and they're losing 3 men a turn. I ran out of HE trying to kill them off and theyre still taking pot shots at my guys who are in cover, while they're supposedly pinned or retreating, and have several tonnes of lead falling on them. I guess my guys were greener to start with and that might explain a bit of it, but now most of them arent and even at 70%, infantry are still pretty tough cookies, especially from close range, high calibre HE. Stationnary Stug42 fires 3 rounds with 105mm at Russian infantry section moving at full speed at 50mtrs which pins them and that's it. Surely someone would have at least got wounded? At least now they dont charge full tilt across a field, taking no casualties and still managing to surpress tanks at 300 metre + ranges.
I'm sure it varies a helluva lot depending on nation, time of combat, experience etc... Absolutely agree that no-one(?) wants a "Tank V Inf= Inf Wiped Out" game, so 30% would be going way too far - they'd all be dying out having a few rude words shouted at them. But as said, even at 70% they are still well hard :-) Right, that's my tupenny worth...

Yes, we see reports like this from people new to the game every once in awhile and on the rare occasion we see a save game demonstrating this we test it and don't see what the fuss was about or it's the result of too many of one type of defence. Seriously, don't you think as designers if we tested the game and couldn't deal with the situations as described we wouldn't make changes ? We don't just code and toss things out "hoping for the best"

The preferences screen is there so people CAN change the character of the game by lowering or raising things like infantry toughness. You will even find people on this forum who have played fo some time who are playing at higher than normal infantry toughness settings. TRY a game at 30 toughness. It might suit your style of play better. Don't just assume that because it's "30" it's too low without at least playing 1 game that way.

Don

[RVPERTVS]

MajorDisaster said:
I ran out of HE trying to kill them off and theyre still taking pot shots at my guys who are in cover, while they're supposedly pinned or retreating, and have several tonnes of lead falling on them.

This is something I find hard to figure. I know is a matter of morale but I´ve learned that even when pinned or retreating, enemy infantry can still take shots at you, sometimes they even have an amazing high hit chance for their status, so my conclusion is that status report could be misleading, a lot of times I´ve seen a pinned/retreating squad inflicting casualties among my advancing troops.

Keep Cool
Roberto

[serg3d]

In my experience direct fire from tank or MG is effective enough to fix infantry in place. After that mortars or artillery can route it. At least in early Long Campaign Russia vs German experienced German infantry could be dealt with that way. It seems to me indirect fire is more effective vs infantry in the game engine.