Carry Capacity for Jeep, Kuebelwagen, etc.

[DRG]

OK then Chuck, I'll try to explain it to you. You won't like the answer but we're all used to that by now. I will say upfront I am not the least bit interested in "debating" this issue with you so you can accept the answer or not.

I'm so glad you "like the game to be authentic wherever possible." and this is one of those cases where we have a different idea of where the "wherever possible" line is.

Let's use the German OOB as an example. There are 6 vehicles that fall into the "Utility Vehicle" category in that OOB.........

156 - Kettenkraftrad
183 - Schwimmwagen
195 - Kuebelwagen
453 - Kfz 69
454 - Kfz 15
802 - Schlepper UE

..........and all have a carry capacity of 6 even though it's a stretch to say the Kettenkraftrad or the Schlepper UE could carry 6 men. One way around that which was used in the past ( and still do for some of the light amphib Weasels )is to call these (2)Kettenkraftrad or (2) Schlepper UE and then just "assume" that these "two" vehicles always moved together and were destroyed together. This brings complaints from other people, also terribly concerned with keeping the game "authentic wherever possible" , that this is "Unrealistic". The REASON they all have a carry capacity of 6 is because people expect when they buy a formation that includes these vehicles that they can actually load the troops into them and if an formation is built with a half dozen vehicles that all have different carry capacities ( let's call that the "authentic carry capacity" ) they get quite rightly pissed at us and send us "bug" reports that such-and-such formation cannot be loaded in into this-or-that vehicle when they try to use those "authentic" units. There are limited number of unit classes and not every specialty vehicle can rate it's own special class

Is everyone with me on this so far???

So if it will help try thinking about this a little less literally. Maybe, try thinking of the obvious examples as being (2) vehicles since you are well aware that the game does not allow splitting a unit and loading them into two vehicles and if that doesn't work then try this......The world record for cramming people into a Volkswagen Beetle is 24. 6 in a Kublewagen wouldn't really be that big a deal would it? We only allow 13 men to be carried on a T-34 but it won't take anyone concerned with "accuracy" long to find photos with considerably more than 13 Russians on a T-34. We have no intention of changing the carry capacity of the T-34. It's a game design decision to allow these "utility" vehicles a , perhaps, higher than "normal" carry capacity .

OK?

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, a very fluid answer indeed.
I see your problem with the unit classes. I think there are none left? but no problem heres the solution, continuing with the German OOB as an example only the schwimmwagen, Kuebelwagen and Kfz 15 are real utility vehicles. The remaining three vehicles can simply be removed from the utility unit class (026). Kfz 69 is a light truck, Unit class 183, Kettenkraftrad is an artillery prime mover, unit class 180. Schlepper UE has any number of roles but doesnt appear to have provision to carry any passengers whatsoever, and appears in unit classes 056 and 180 anyway. Only 4 German formations use the utlity vehicles, two contain only utility vehicles so no problems for them. That leaves only two formations, 235 PzAufklKp (sw) and 285, FJg Spaehtrp[G] assuming we are going to use "authentic" carrying capacities (say 4 but I prefer 3) PzAufklKp needs no change, only FJg Spaehtrp[G] needs work, currently it is one kubelwagon, one 4 man scout group and two snipers so we have to lose the snipers. Thats Germany done.
Without providing any detail I have also had a look at USA and again this OOB doesnt seem to pose any problems.
I am of course willing to work out for you and test what needs to be done in every OOB in order to give utility class vehicles "authentic" carrying capacities.
I do think it is a problem squeezing 6 men into a kubelwagon, as it depends on what gear they have if its the heavy MG and ammo then they probably weight as much as 10 men, six regular infantry with full kit is also unlikely. Six small slim university students perhaps.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Chuck, here's the short, polite answer

NO

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
I do think it is a problem squeezing 6 men into a kubelwagon, as it depends on what gear they have if its the heavy MG and ammo then they probably weight as much as 10 men, six regular infantry with full kit is also unlikely. Six small slim university students perhaps.

The default size of the headquarters happens to be 6, so there needs to be the ability to carry them.

Note Andy doesn't speak of MG teams or infantry with full kit. And if you don't like the idea of MG teams or full kit infantry being carried in Jeeps and kübelwagens, there's a simple way to avoid it: don't do that. Works for me so far.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
Look its fine by me if the powers dont care about this its their call.
But its a little bit more than kubelwagons. Its more about vehicles such as the Schlepper UE. Note this vehicle cannot carry -any- passengers but is classed as a utility vehicle clearly wrong.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Yeah lets REALLY sweat the small crap.....that'll make the game "better"

The Schlepper UE may not be designed to carry infantry but neither were most tanks yet they still can and do. Infantry will find a way to ride on something if there are flat surfaces to sit on so at some point in the past this was added to the utility class for whatever reason( and that Schlepper UE's been there awhile now as a "utility vehicle" ) Maybe it shouldn't but looking at the photo it's not hard to image six infantrymen finding a place to ride if need be and it's NOT like we called it a infantry carrier. It's just a small totally insignificant vehicle that someone thought in a pinch could carry infanrty so it was made a utility vehicle. I'm surprised you haven't noticed that the Artillery prime mover version can carry NINE men or that the "Feldwagen" can carry 20.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
OK then maybe we should sweat some slightly bigger crap, Something closely related to carrying capacity, maybe you noticed the tests I did on your behalf in the "more newbie ??'s" in the Winspww2 forum, Do you think thats its realistic that your 13 men packed on the back of a stationary T34 receive just one casualtie when an unseen MG42 opens up at them at 150m?
Best Chuck.

[blitzkreig]

Chuck,

One of the things I've noticed and actually really like about this game is that sometimes weird stuff happens. I don't know how the code works to nake it thus but it does seem to convey the "fog of war" quite well. What may in fact seem "strange" such as only one casualty in this case seems to model a hundred and one posibilites such as "ops I missed" or the "the bloody guns jammed!"

On the reverse side this works to the players advantage when "incredabile" results benefit the player. I recently had a very brave SS 3 man 50mm mortar team defend a victory hex (after the rest of the pltoon ran away) for 5 turns all on its own. It managed to fight off a polish infanrty coy with nothing but an smg, a few He rounds and some harsh language! Needless to say I was most impressed!

It works both ways

Regards

Ian

[Imp]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Hi Don
OK then maybe we should sweat some slightly bigger crap, Something closely related to carrying capacity, maybe you noticed the tests I did on your behalf in the "more newbie ??'s" in the Winspww2 forum, Do you think thats its realistic that your 13 men packed on the back of a stationary T34 receive just one casualtie when an unseen MG42 opens up at them at 150m?
Best Chuck.

I just ran a test but did with moving tanks because moving makes you more vulnerable.
Vision set to 150m 8 man squads on 30 tanks.
Casulties get worse the faster you move just like foot infantry.
Average loss 2 men but if MG got a chance to fire second MG weapon slot losing half a squad is not uncommon. If an RPG team was riding to can get messy.
Applies obviosly to op fire as well.
So loss is 1/4-1/2 of the riders.
If you think some will be in front & some behind turret sounds reasonable, think about it.
If I was manning the MG would I really open up at 150ms versus a tank. Quick burst maybe but I would actualy be more intreasted in planning my exit route afterwards before the tank opens up than hitting anything.