German Motorcycles and their Units

blitzkreig · #1 May 15th, 2007, 11:34 AM

Shan,

Have a look at the above link. Go into the OOB section, then the KsTN section. KsTN are the offical German TOE for WW2. If you check the Panzertruppen section there's info on the TOE of MC units among many others.

It can be found under the kraftradeschutzen Kompanie for the early war mech infanrty type units mounted on bikes and in the Panzer-AufklarungsKompanie formations. Ie the recce coys of the recce btl. All in German though, but still useful!

Getting info on armoured car TOE, well good luck! as with most German units every foramtion seems to be diferent!

Though normally there were one or if very lucky 2 coys per reecce btl. Armoured cars were actually quite scarce in Pz Divisions even the SS late war elite units.

You can find info on the Sdfz 250 coys that replace the Krad coys on the site as well. Though the support or heavy coys of the recce units aren't in yet. Again these varied widely but typically had a anti-tank plt, inf gun plt and engineer/pionner plt.

A realism point though. Win Steel Panthers works on a core of 200 units, a reinforeced btl sized foramtion or kampfgruppen in German terms. The amount of recce assets the Div could or would assign them would be a fairly small part of the Kampfgruppe, espically late war. More than likley a Aufklarungs Gruppe or a recce group built from various units with the recce btl. Early war krad companies were availbable in greater numbers though from the Kraftradeschutzen btls and the Krad kompanie in each Schutzen or mot inf btl.

Good hunting!

Shan · #2 May 15th, 2007, 12:52 PM

You mean this one, posted by Popski - http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstnpanzermain.htm - yeah, my dreams come true... I am already adapting my Kradschuetzen according to this...

PanzerBob · #3 May 16th, 2007, 04:54 AM

Well, Gentlemen,

More ideas, and a great Orbat resource, (I'm surprised I've never run into this one, the German probally threw me off the scent.) I think between us we should be able to come up a workable Aufklarungs Gruppe for attachment to our KG's.

http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

http://www.fireandfury.com/faq/faqGermans.shtml

These two references, may help as well especially with the Kraftrad/Panzerspahwagen combo question, and I beleive Ian had some German Org. questions these may help with. Combined with the German Lang. OOB and the above Refs, just a quick look clarified how the Kradschuetzen, were idealy formed, My refs aren't always as detailed as needed to cobble to together our units.

I like the idea you have for dismountable Kraftrad truppen, please send sitreps on how they work.

My Boys have finished their second battle, advancing on Cannuks in Normandy. They did well, but at a heavy toll. They saved many of my Panzers from PIAT ambushes. I've always have problems with those Canuk PIAT teams, shades of Smokey Smith I surpose. All that being said, my concept is bearing some positve results. However, we shall see. My plan is the try Shan's idea when I load my CD version when it arrives. Then I shall begin testing in earnst.

Cheers, Bob

The Boys catchin a few Z's before their next battle.

blitzkreig · #4 May 16th, 2007, 10:16 AM

Panzerbob,

Interesting links, though the TOE is not bang on for some units and not as relaible as going by KsTN charts (though actually field units always varied quite widley of course) It answered my question about who operated the flamethrower tanks though so cheers!

Having done some more digging around in various books I'd argue that the German oob (oob16) may need some tweaking for the German recce units to be historically a bit more accurate, ie weapons/vehilces and troop numbers/type but hey thats what modhack's for I guess.

I have been trying out scout/kublewagon combinations late war. As the kubelwagon companies had thier own KsTN and were quite widely used. In game terms it lets you sneak about a bit more as they are faster than the sdkfz 250 so you can move in fast then dismount and obseerve an area. Not much combat value though!

Shan · #5 May 18th, 2007, 11:09 AM

I just wanna tell you what I've done so far: I created my personal Kradschuetzen company along the lines of the great website provided by the other guys. In '39, for example, the company has 3 platoons each with 3 6-men sections , I classed those as light infantry. They have K-98k, LMG-34, hand grenades and pistol, unit size 1. Each such section has its own MC transport, classed as Motorcycle. Size=1, 3men, 6 men carrying capacity, amament: K-98k, pistol. The 4th section of each platoon is a light 5cm grenade launcher troop (3men, already exists).

Then, the company has a 4th platoon with 2x MMG-34 half-sections, those already exist, an 2x MC transports.

During the course of the war, weapons change of course (MPi-40 instead of pistoly, MG-42s, ...), and TO&E as well, but not significantly.

I used unit class= light infantry for my Kradschuetzen - later in the war the Luftwaffe units use the same class as well but I dont see a problem with that, you just have to take care what you buy. Also, I created a dedicated 'Kradmelder' who cannot dismount from his bike, this being a 2-men unit IIRC, but basically the 3-men MC transports can do the same job.

I am now using such a company in my North Africa-based long campaign, and it fights quite well!
Losses are of course there due to the nature of their mission, but the 6-men sections are doing well, and their bikes often recovered them out of trouble... only the 5cm grenade launchers are quite useless, I normally use them for direct fire thoguh and then they're not too bad. Overall, I'm quite happy with the results, they were better than expected. I'll also do something similar for the Fuesilierkompanie (bicycle infantry), should work accordingly.

Regards,

Shan

I am now using such a formation

PanzerBob · #6 May 18th, 2007, 05:28 PM

Good day all.

After our discussions, and some trial and error I've decided to keep my single MC sidecar Unit, with various arms as per time period, amended to reflect less men (3)plus a size of 0. I decided not to use the Scout/MC transport combo,(I tried it) while even more versatile than a MC unit, I found with the KG sizes I command the MC unit was a little more practical. Of course, 30 battles latter may prove me wrong.

As for formations, I've gone with two creations based on what DIV might pass down to a KG for their use. I've formed a PzKrad Aufkl Gp:

3 x MC/sidecars
2 x MG armed Kubelwagen w 4 men

Plus a PzKrad Spah Gp:

3 x MC/sidecars
1 x (le)Panzerspahwagen
1 x (sw)Panzerspahwagen

One of each will be Recce for the KG on my new campaign. I'm going to try and keep a running AAR on this campaign.

Cheers, Bob

blitzkreig · #7 May 25th, 2007, 11:05 AM

Good to to see your still experimenting!

Would you fellas consider posting your modded OOB16 so other folks can have a look how the formations handle? It would also be useful to get some more feedabck from anyone else reading this as to whether asking for this to be looked at by the designers is worthwhile or of interest to anyone other than the three of us!

Pz Bob & shan could you spare the time to let folks know how the different MC units are performing in your games?

I intended to start screening through the scenarios to see how many would be effected if a change was to be on the cards. Some potenial flaws already though!

1. Any change would probaberly require the creation of new units. The German OOB does'nt have that many left.

2. The scenarios would need changing

3. Possible consquences on other OOBs using MC units.

Worth the bother I ask you all? Opinions please......

On a similar vain has anyone looked into the accuracy of the other german Recce units or played around with a Kubelwagon mounted recce force?