German ranks

[narwan]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Narwan

Just for interests sake, do you think the Japs should get a "no surrender" bonus?
Best Chuck.

Good question. I'm not sure. The japanese were very different from other soldiers. They did tend to go on where others did not. Even though SS troops were often shot when captured, that statement itself shows that they did indeed surrender. Some, on the western front even most, survived surrendering. It did happen and with some regularity. Even on the eastern front.
And while the occasional surrender did happen amongst the japanese, that was quite exceptional. So there is ample reason to distinguish here. Whether that means a complete 'no surrender' option or whether surrendering (including disbanding when losses are too high) should simply be much, much rarer amongst them is a more of a code issue I think. If the choice is between the same surrender mechanic as other nations have or none I'd say none as that would be a closer approximation of the historical truth in my opinion. Having said that, there is another factor that obscures this even more. While the japanese tended not to surrender, that does NOT equal fighting to the end. Fighting to the end implies dying at the hands of the enemy. There is ample evidence to show that suicide was often preferred over (possible) capture. In game terms the effect would be similar though. Still the point remains whether it was common enough to justify treating the japanese the same as the other nations with regards to surrendering. I feel special circumstances are warranted and prefer the current set-up over treating all the same.

I feel that the USMC's no surrender is more problematic. I understand the reasoning there, but I think it is a much 'greyer' area than with the japanese. For instance, if marines had been deployed to the european theatre of operations, would they have shown the same reluctance to surrender facing the germans or italians as they did opposing the japanese? In my view the surrender record of the USMC in the war is more testament of the behaviour of their opponents (so a reaction) that it was something inherent to the corps itself. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying in any way that the USMC surrender(ed) easily. Just that it has more to do with circumstances.
As the game is a historical game and the USMC does mainly face the japanese and they did rarely surrender to them there is justification for the current situation. But it remains a judgement call (and I'm not the one who has to make it).

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

This is very interesting, are you telling me that the USMC and Japanese currently dont surrender? or that they are treated differently to the other OOBs as regards surrendering?
Best Chuck.

[narwan]

As far as I know they fight to the last man (no dispersing of the last few men of a squad) and they don't surrender either. From a quick check of the design history this dates back to spww2v2.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Well I agree that the Japs are in a "no surrender" class of there own. If I were to rank the various nations/OOBs in order of "no surrender" I would have thought it might go something like Japs, SS/NKVD, eastern front wermacht/Marines I think its a bit odd that the marines get the -same- no surrender bonus as the japs and better than SS. Looking at the Marine campaigns/landings it seems that in common with the dodgy political SS units they actually had very little chance to surrender anyway, hence the surrender record, ie
(and without trying to belittle the efforts of the Marines)
The Marines did have enormous material advantages over the Japs. ie complete air control and so thorough pre-landing reconassience, Artillery support was phenominal, in the pre-landing bombardment Io Jima got 1950 rounds of 16", 1500 14", 400 12", 1700 8", 2000 6", 31000 5" plus air, plus rockets. So the Marines were never going to fail. Best I can find using memory here didnt bookmark it, is a Marine Battalion did get to about 60% casualties before being pulled out of the line and replaced by a fresh unit. The Marines had excellent supply, hospital ships etc etc, the Japs were usualy completely isolated and often hungry, their minute artillery was quickly located and smashed. So the few Japanese counter-attacks (excluding banzai suicide charges) they actually made (This is where the Marines get the chance to surrender) were basically unsupported and hence failed especially in the face of the massive artillery that must have been directed at any japanese troop concentration.
Considering this Im not sure the marines deserve the in-game "no surrender" bonus. If the "no surrender" bonus is because they 'thought' the Japs would butcher them the same applies to the SS I would think.
Best Regards Chuck.