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  #1  
Old July 16th, 2007, 02:00 AM
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Saulot Saulot is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

That's quite a collection you've managed.
Alright, I'll take it one step at a time, so I checked out one nation, the Dunmer. I'll try a little play-by-play / critique of how that worked out. (I'm not going to be pulling any punches, so I hope you don't get offended by anything I say, I mean it with respect and the hope that my critique may help broaden your view, and possibly improve the balance and flow of the mod, or at least consider design alternatives in any future mods.)

Pregame:
W10 Dom4 Blue Dragon with good scales. Cradle of Dominions NI Map. High Indeps, Low Gold/Resources. 7 AI's.

Turn 1 Observations:
As soon as I try my first turn, I'm overwhelmed. There are close to 30 (!) recruitable units and commanders. My first thought was woah, and then my next thought was with so many units, it's going to be all over the place. I proceeded to examine each unit carefully. Surprise, it's the opposite of my first impression. It's not all over the place at all, in fact, most of the units are almost identical versions of each other. I'm not talking about the graphics, which are actually nice and feel appropriate. I mean the stats, equipment, and uses. Pretty much most of the units are just heavy infantry. There's little reason to pick more than one houses' guard, probably favoring Redoran, with possibly some Telvani if I'm fighting C'tis. As for the two sacred units, they're practically identical. Only real difference is that for the second one you pay 5 more gold, but get 1 more morale, 1 higher attack, and 1 more damage with it's weapon.
Then the commanders, we have a similar situation. There are 4 house captains and a Redoran lord. The lord likely fits the bill for all command jobs because of the high leadership and the other house captains (with the exception of Telvanni) will probably be never used. Then you have 4 mages on a spectrum of strength. There is sufficient variety from the first to the second, but why pick either when the third is actually a better researcher per gold than the first two, and can do everything the first two can do as well. Then the priests, exactly 3 priests, each one practically the same except for their holy power; 1, 2, 3, respectively.
We come up again on the two sacred commanders, which have a similar issue as the two sacred units.
Next we have the scout and the assassin. 12 gold for each? That's the cheapest scout and assassin I've ever seen. Something more like 20 & 40 would be more appropriate. We also have the Royal Guard unit/commander. Capital only heavy infantry? Why? It has similar stats as all the other heavy infantry, and fits the same role.
Also, the fort is a great city, which may be the best possible capital fort (60 admin.) and there are 6 gems in the starting sites (as opposed to the usual 5 for medium era), and together that's probably rather strong in terms of balance.

Turns 2-15 Observations:
Used mostly archers and Redoran guards for expansion, and lots of Telvanni mouths and lords kept me up with research and some early forging and sitesearching. The units I used seem pretty balanced to me. Since fire/air/astral leads to a lot of offensive battlemagic, two Telvanni lords supporting the main army were quite effective. Overall the heavy infantry makes it play in a style similar to Ulm, which IMO isn't a bad thing, and the different magic should make for a sufficiently different mid/end game. For anyone on the fence as to whether to try it or not, I'd say give it a shot.

Reading through the .dm file:
I noticed you assigned a UW and DEEP fort. I've never seen that before in a land oriented nation mod, and it may activate forts for them in those areas. Which you probably could build using a Telvanni Captain. I'm pretty sure that's undesired behavior, otherwise it seems somewhat unbalanced.
Three Immortal heroes with other good abilities also seems overly strong in terms of balance, though I understand that thematically they're 'living gods'.

Suggestions:
There are a few things which need to be shifted down in terms of balance (like gem income or the heroes), but otherwise that's fine.
I realize that you were trying to maintain consistency with the source and have the full range of potential Dunmer units and characters, but much like a large shrub I feel it could use a trim, and a few units removed and a few altered. Just a lot of units have similar stats, cost, and functionality. More specifically, the hlaalu/redoran guards should be more different, or one of them removed. The three types of sacreds could probably be trimmed down to one. The captains could be trimmed down from 4 to 2. The three priests could probably be trimmed to two. The scout could be removed (The assassin more than makes up for scouting needs, and outside of No Indep mods, national scouts are rather unnecessary). The 4 mages could be trimmed to 3 (and the stronger ones should have a higher research per gold cost in comparison to the weaker ones to promote the weak mage use as a researcher, since the stronger one will be more useful in terms of battles/rituals/forging.). The two sacred commanders could be trimmed down to 1. The Royal guard could be removed as well (since it adds little outside RPG elements to the nation IMHO). That would remove about 10 units, bringing it to a more cohesive 18, though 20 seems good too. (Generally a good way of figuring it out is if by the end of the game, you haven't used more than half the units available, then there probably are too many.)

I realize reading this sort of advice after you've already spent the time and effort to make sprites for all those units, is somewhat unpleasant, but you wanted to hear suggestions/criticisms so that's what I did. Perhaps a trimmed version of the .dm file could be released for improved gameflow / vanilla balance, and the full version could remain for those players who prefer the RPG side of the game.

Edit:
Sombre's suggestion in the following post is good too.
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  #2  
Old July 16th, 2007, 02:19 AM

Sombre Sombre is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

Rather than eliminating units which have graphics and flavour text made for them, you could change their abilities and have them as summons of some kind.
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Old July 16th, 2007, 08:41 AM

sube sube is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

Thanks for all the comments! I am really glad for any criticism i receive, no way i find this unpleasant. Having spent a lot of time on these mods, i am now too much into it and i may often fail to see the larger picture - so any comment coming from a new pair of eyes is very, very helpful, and i greatly appreciate the time you put into that.

I'll be working on the changes and fixes you suggested, but it may take a while as my dom3 time is kind of limited. Probably version 1.1 will be out in a week or two, if everything goes fine.

A few quick answers before i have to get back to work:

- Juzza: yep i had the game! But that was a longtime ago, it was a windows95 game and i had it working under windows98 thanks to an official patch, but that's how far i got. No clue on how to have it under Xp.

- I already went through each mod a good 2-3 times and fixed many things, but still, i probably missed many more, like the assassin priced at 12g or the judge equipped with a dagger but showing a staff in his graphics, and others. Thanks for spotting those - they'll be fixed asap

- I modded some of these nations a long time ago, before Lanka and Tuatha came out. As a result, two nations are using Lanka's and Tuatha's id number, so they got also all their national spells (and they take these EA nations out of the game when activated). Going to fix that somewhat (either changing numbers, if there are enough available, or removing the national spells).

- Dwarves - Dark Dwarves: they have no scouts on purpose

- Vampires: I am also wondering if immortality on all troops is a bit too much, but i wanted a very "different" nation, and I tried to compensate with poor research, weak mages, and sacrifice-only dom spread. Btw mass immortality may have the curious effect of overcrowding your capitol with reborn troops, which you'll have to ferry back to the frontline, and may feel a bit weird. I need to play it more, and see how it goes - maybe removing the immortality could be the way to go.

- Morrowind: yep i did not pay too much attention to balance, i just tried to port all the units from the other game. But i'll review this nation and try to eliminate a few units + make the others more different, two versions (RPG / balanced) may as well be the better solution.

Thanks again guys, i'll also try to post some more detailed nation-by-nation descriptions when i have time
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Old July 16th, 2007, 08:59 AM

sube sube is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

Btw the flashy graphics mostly comes from the fact that i tried to reproduce the art from the comic book, hence the flat whites, blues, reds etc. The non-BM nations are maybe a little less flat
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Old July 17th, 2007, 01:19 PM
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Humakty Humakty is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

Most of the infantries you created use short weapons or light polearms, and cost a lot of resources. I find them lacking in punch compared to the vanilla human civs.
I think at least the order of justice could use some heavy weapons.(even if in the comic most soldiers use spears and sword)
It is true that rapidly, powerful evocations can compensate for this lack of power.
The high mage of air of lhynn as 2E in place of 2A and two of the attacks of the leviathan are at 0 (which is maybe not a scandal).
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Old July 18th, 2007, 04:46 AM

sube sube is offline
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Default Re: 11nations mod

Quote:
Humakt said:
Most of the infantries you created use short weapons or light polearms, and cost a lot of resources. I find them lacking in punch compared to the vanilla human civs.
I think at least the order of justice could use some heavy weapons.(even if in the comic most soldiers use spears and sword).
Ok, good point - i'll put it into my to do list. It's true that 2Hs don't show up too much in the comic, but they can still fit nicely into this dom3 adaptation
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Old July 18th, 2007, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: 11nations mod

what I think you need to do is make things a bit more like the other nations what I mean is this.

Normal Troop
HP:10
Str:10
att:10
def:10
Prot:15 body 20 head "for sake of arguement we'll put them in lhynn plate"
Moral:10
MR:10
AP:12

those are the only stats we need, now then we look at say a standard sort of elite.

Elite Troop
HP:10-16
Str:11-12
att:10-12
def:10-12
Prot:15 body 20 head "for sake of arguement we'll put them in lhynn plate" (protection varies per unit, not as important as other stats)
Moral:10-16
MR:10-12
AP:12-14

I noticed with your standard troops for Lhynn and your elite troops the only real difference was the weaponry wasn't really enough, the elites are better! they need more, primarily, HP and STR

um, does that give a bit of insite into my opinion?
keep it your own though!! or the whole things gonna fall apart!
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