OT: US Pres election

[Azselendor]

The only person that needs to be blamed for any hike in taxes is Bush.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

As for vast generalizations, I'll point out lumping people in one group never serves anything. Us vs. them doesn't get anywhere.

This is what blows my mind about America today. Here we are, fighting a war that for the first time in half a century has landed clear blows on American soil and spilled American Blood on American Soil, and we are busy trying to rip out each other's jugular or disembowel the other first of pure silliness. Really, did the civil war end? Did the North win? because it seems like America can't decide if it's the Confederate States or United States.

Every one of your arguments can also be laid upon the republican party, the whigs, the federalist, and so on down the chain of history. Many of them are null designed to get the base up into a frenzy. John the Plumber, btw, isn't registered to vote and it's too late for him to register so if he really cared about his taxes, he should've registered to vote. I have no sympathy for his fear of taxes.

And repeating political talking points doesn't make them true.

Obama is a good man, but he is a dangerous man. With a super liberal majority in congress, a willing pro-liberal controlled media, and a proven far left leaning Obama in office, we won't see an awakening of a prosperous future, but rather one that will usher in the end of one.

This I take exception at as very few americans can now look back at the last 8 years and say we've had a prosperous future compared the the 8 that preceded that.



Let's face facts, America right now is weak. We face a crumbling economy, federal debts that won't be paid off for another century (counting only principle) a corrupt government, a divided nation against itself, China is only getting stronger, the russian military has reconstituted itself but couldn't find its missing nukes if their lives depended on it, we can't scare north korea, the UN is crippled by an outdated cold-war setup , and a global energy and climate crisis.

So really, is America strong enough to face these challenges and see Victory?

We are entering a long and hard period of reconstruction that may not succeed. We need someone who has laid out a plan and been consistant, not someone who throws ideas against the wall in the hopes something might stick and drops what he's doing to leap for a photo up.

[Atrocities]

Azselendor you do a very effective job of countering my comments. It is a pleasure as always to read your posts. While I am swayed to agree with you on a few items there are a couple that I need to offer counter points to.

The only person that needs to be blamed for any hike in taxes is Bush.

Bush shouldn't become the scape goat for the fools who are really to blame. Most of which were fired and hired in 06. Those are the real asshats that are behind this. Bush has had no real power since 06.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

For the record the US economy grew more under Bush than it did Clinton. That is a verifiable fact of reality. This whole economic situation that we are now in is as much to blame on the failed democratic policies as it is on republican ones. For one, Bush inherited an economy that was going into the tank following 8 years of Clintonomic. Remember black Friday in October of 97? Two, this whole sub prime loan fiasco could have been resolved in 05, but NO, it was blocked by elements of both parties in control. Three, although Bush is the president, the Democrats have had control of Congress for the last two years and have done NOTHING to stem the tide when they could have.

I believe that this whole melt down can be traced right back to rising oil prices. That is what started this disaster ball rolling. It was predicted by a mathmatician back in 1999. He stated that within 10 years the price for oil will be more than $100.00 per barrel. That when that happened the US economy, and that of the world, would fall into chaos. He proved this by math.

As the oil prices rose, people had less and less disposable income so they started to use their credit cards. Once those were maxed out they stopped paying their mortgages so they could eat, keep the car, buy gas, and keep the lights on. The price of oil kept going up, mostly because the oil companies were buying their own oil via the speculator market which they only stopped after Bush and Congress finally threatened to look into the speculator market at the behest of conservative talk radio hosts and angry Americans. People who had these sub prime mortgages were the ones that were hurt first, once they stopped paying their mortgage and their homes fell into foreclosure the banks that held the paper started to fail. The rest is history in the making.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

I tend to agree with you in that tax increases are most likely going to happen. So why do both candidates keep saying they are going to cut taxes? Why not cut spending instead? And I hate to be the voice of reason all the time, but under Obama, government is poised to grow thus increasing the debt. In order to pay for his projects, taxes are going to have to be raised. And as we know, lower taxes fuel an economy, and higher taxes, especially in these times, stall the economy.

John the Plumber, btw, isn't registered to vote and it's too late for him to register so if he really cared about his taxes, he should've registered to vote.

Fact Check: "The Ohio press reports that he (Joe the Plumber) is in fact registered to vote, under a slightly misspelling of his name." The misspelling was due in part to a clerical error.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Bush shouldn't become the scape goat for the fools who are really to blame. Most of which were fired and hired in 06. Those are the real asshats that are behind this. Bush has had no real power since 06.

So he shouldn't be blamed that/because he had no real power?

I don't even know about the power thing. I mean, I see that man as incompetent and always mostly saw him as kind of a puppet from the start, yes. But for others, I'd think he just wasn't as prominently visible in the media, and thus less present.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

And that's what, I'd assume, will unfortunately be the perception about the next president and his party, whoever it may be. "Usurper, he was good for nothing, he raised our taxes!" It's bad if people don't understand that it is necessary and the carefree living that they had before wasn't really viable and showed its ugly downside in the end.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Let's face facts, America right now is weak. We face a crumbling economy, federal debts that won't be paid off for another century (counting only principle) a corrupt government, a divided nation against itself, China is only getting stronger, the russian military has reconstituted itself but couldn't find its missing nukes if their lives depended on it, we can't scare north korea, the UN is crippled by an outdated cold-war setup , and a global energy and climate crisis.

Well, regardless what you do, you won't solve the climate crisis now even if you tried with all your might, you can only adapt and I hope that America will, same for global energy. As for North Korea, I see that one as a paper tiger. If there is one land that has hit rock bottom except Africa, then it's North Korea, I'd say, at least for the people that live there. I don't think they'll have the breath to continue like this that much longer.

[Atrocities]

I am willing to bet that North Korea is about to lift the current and join the world. They have nothing to loose and everything to gain. I hope North Korea announces today that they willing to work with everyone in putting the cold war to bed.

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power. I do believe that he aloud himself to be manipulated and played and in turn was used as a tool to benefit people like Cheyenne and that bastard Dumbsfield.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power.

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

As to the Iraq war, we were sold a bill of goods that wasn't true. History cannot be undone, only learned from. And I would like to think that by fighting this battle now, we saved our children from having to fighter it at a much higher cost in the future. Does that make it right, no, we were misled and although I don't personally believe that Bush knew the extent of the lies, I do believe that he should share in some of the blame for what happened. However PBS has a Front Line episode that explains why the war went south when it became a policing effort following the end of mission accomplished.

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold. It makes me very sick to think, however, that many innocent people were harmed, killed, and jailed because of our failure to anticipate the reality of what it was we chose to do. My God have mercy on us for that horrific blunder that cost so many lives. Our troops are doing good in Iraq, my nephew is there and he and his fellow soldiers having nothing but good things to say about the progress going on in Iraq now following the surge.

While the road to a better Iraq has been a bloody one, with Gods will and the work of good people, Iraq will, as we are seeing now, recover and prosper. I don't blame Bush for the failures in Iraq, I blame that on the murdering SOB terrorists, Dick Cheney, and Ronald Dumbsfield. Firing that prick was the best thing Bush has done to date. If anything, Bush's greatest failure was in not firing that SOB sooner.

Obama has the potential of becoming a great leader, I just genuinely pray that he does so without abrogating our constitutional rights.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

It is also one of the biggest limitations, if not the biggest that I know of, of those constitutional rights that you seemed to be so aware of. Does it only take some nicely packaged words to sway your principles?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

So you come across as somebody who is totally unprotected against manipulation by the media. Maybe a simplistic black and white view on things, too, but I don't want to exaggerate too much into this.

If you say that Saddam was perceived as a real threat, when what did that threat look like? This is mostly a rhetoric question, but think about it and tell how Saddam could have been a threat to the US. Limited range of missiles is only the beginning - I'm at a loss if I want to imagine how some backwater country is fighting a numerically and technologically vastly superior superpower, especially getting at their grounds and gaining anything from it in the mid to long term. If a cold war Soviet Union failed against the United States, how could the Iraq have succeeded? Unknown super weapons? Secret Moon Bases? I admit, I'm getting polemical.

One thing that I don't want to touch again is that there was absolutely no link at all from 9/11 to Saddam. Was it just that the time was right?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold.

I dislike this altruistic perception of the USA as a worldwide police force. I simply cannot keep up this image in my mind anymore. There are dozens of warlords in Africa that committed and still commit far greater atrocities than Saddam ever did, and they're still alive, they're still doing this. Why doesn't the self-declared peace force get to work there? And as I said earlier, I am quite uncertain if the quality of live in Iraq has really improved and if you can call it "prospering" now. Maybe in the long term. Much later.