Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush

[sum1lost]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Flaming arrows are not early game option.

Flaming arrows are enchantment 4. I'd say that they are early game, seeing as how the earliest I have EVER been attacked is turn 14, and I have played rush-target nations before.

However, in the same light as flaming arrows, I would like to bring up Yomi's various oni, several of whom shoot some very nice flaming projectiles at enemies. One can buff them with a variety of buffs.

[DonCorazon]

Eye Shield Const 2

[DonCorazon]

Exactly, how many people are running around with D3 mages? And the priest counters are much simpler, cheaper and easier to get. Not to mention lots of mages are holy and can be scripted to banish or the AI will revert to banish after scripting runs out.

I suspect Skelly Spam is a way overrated tactic that worked better in Dom 2. I am glad it is so promoted since I love to see D3 mages that could be casting much more effective spells instead raising a few piles of skeletons that I can wade through for lots of XP.

[vfb]

Flaming Arrows are Ench-5 in CBM1.3, and quite a few MP games are using that now.

[HoneyBadger]

A lot of it depends on the specific Nation, and whether or not you're expecting to be rushed by Niefelheim. There's usually a good Nation-specific or atleast Pretender-specific counter for them.

[Zeldor]

MaxWilson:

I think you'd really like LA Agartha

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

MaxWilson:

I think you'd really like LA Agartha

Yes, LA Agartha is another of my favorites. Great mages, and Umbrals and Sepulchrals.

-Max

[Falkor]

From my little experience I know three ways of stopping an early E9N9 Nifel rush:

- Stealth - Niefelheim has no answer on early stealthy raiders.
- SC's - either awaken pretenders or recruitables of Fomoria, Hinom will work fine with just some basic items and early buffs.
- Heat 3 scale - this works wonders, but only until Nifelheim starts spaming Wolven Winter (Alt.4) and it's one of the research priorities for them.

I don't belive some of the proposed solutions would work:

- Death magic - great counter to Nifelheim, but later in the midgame (Drain Life, Ghost Grip). Skely spam can stop giants from advancing, but you need to kill or rout them before your mages collapse. Spaming Fear or Terror doesn't work on berserked units.
In early game death works if combined with nature (fatigue spells) or astral, but it's not an easy way either.

- Fire magic - I just can't imagine it working. Despite fire susceptibility on giants, early fire magic doesn't cause enough damage to even considering it worthwhile. Abysia with fire immune, heat aura spreading troops is the only exception.

- Lightning spells - AN damage that causes fatigue additionaly. Works good on paper. In practice many shots won't hit the target some killling your own chaff. Also, lightning spaming is fatigue intensive and after several turns it's over. Still, it could work with Caelum, but you need a lot of mages.

- Cursing and afflicting giants - won't stop the cold aura from killing all nearby not cold immune units.

- Fire bless - would work perfectly on cold immune sacreds. Caelum's Temple Guard with fire bless is a waste though. Other sacreds will die from cold before dealing enough damage. Still, Mictlan and Lanka can make a good use of their fire blessed sacreds if combined with other options these nations have.

- Assassination - could work with Lanka's or Arco's powerful seducers, but it's a risky bussines for very expensive commanders.

The fact is that some nations look pretty bad against Niefel rush (or any rush, actually). Intensive diplomatic efforts always help.

_

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Falkor

From my little experience I know three ways of stopping an early E9N9 Nifel rush:

- Stealth - Niefelheim has no answer on early stealthy raiders.
- SC's - either awaken pretenders or recruitables of Fomoria, Hinom will work fine with just some basic items and early buffs.
- Heat 3 scale - this works wonders, but only until Nifelheim starts spaming Wolven Winter (Alt.4) and it's one of the research priorities for them.

I don't belive some of the proposed solutions would work:

- Death magic - great counter to Nifelheim, but later in the midgame (Drain Life, Ghost Grip). Skely spam can stop giants from advancing, but you need to kill or rout them before your mages collapse. Spaming Fear or Terror doesn't work on berserked units.
In early game death works if combined with nature (fatigue spells) or astral, but it's not an easy way either.

- Fire magic - I just can't imagine it working. Despite fire susceptibility on giants, early fire magic doesn't cause enough damage to even considering it worthwhile. Abysia with fire immune, heat aura spreading troops is the only exception.

- Lightning spells - AN damage that causes fatigue additionaly. Works good on paper. In practice many shots won't hit the target some killling your own chaff. Also, lightning spaming is fatigue intensive and after several turns it's over. Still, it could work with Caelum, but you need a lot of mages.

- Cursing and afflicting giants - won't stop the cold aura from killing all nearby not cold immune units.

- Fire bless - would work perfectly on cold immune sacreds. Caelum's Temple Guard with fire bless is a waste though. Other sacreds will die from cold before dealing enough damage. Still, Mictlan and Lanka can make a good use of their fire blessed sacreds if combined with other options these nations have.

- Assassination - could work with Lanka's or Arco's powerful seducers, but it's a risky bussines for very expensive commanders.

The fact is that some nations look pretty bad against Niefel rush (or any rush, actually). Intensive diplomatic efforts always help.

_

I agree with a lot of your suggestions, except the Fire Blessed sacreds solution. A Niefel Giant with a N8 Bless will regenerate something like 10 hps per round. I just don't see how some of your suggested sacreds of Mictlan or Lanka can overcome this in 2-3 rounds (before they become fatigued out with cold aura).

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

I agree with a lot of your suggestions, except the Fire Blessed sacreds solution. A Niefel Giant with a N8 Bless will regenerate something like 10 hps per round. I just don't see how some of your suggested sacreds of Mictlan or Lanka can overcome this in 2-3 rounds (before they become fatigued out with cold aura).

Lanka probably can't. Mictlan can. Jaguar warriors have three attacks. For equal cost, you can get 8 jaguar warriors for the cost of 1 niefle giant. Mictlan Jag warriors are anywhere, vs Niefle being cap only.

8 warriors; 24 attacks; even if *only* 12 hit thats 72 ap damage. Well more than Niefle can regenerate, and thats not including niefle susceptibility to fire.