Counters to Niefelheim

[Zylithan]

Quick Version
How does Arcosephale (or anyone) counter Niefel giant armies (like 30) with good bless (regen, etc.)

Long Version
I was playing a game recently vs. another player (we're both noobish). I was arcosephale and he was niefelheim, and there were several average AIs. I was doing very well, huge research lead, good land lead, but falling behind in gold because I was stuck in wasteland and crazy independants (vampires, bogus and his heros) took all the provinces surrounding my capital. Anyway, I was still doing very well, but then got hit with ~ 30 giants. I threw hundreds of troops (mainly Cardaces, because I had low resources because of Bogus and vamps..) with a bunch of Oreliads and lesser mages at the giants and killed like one or two. Despite having 6+ research in just about every path I found my magic pretty useless. I hoped by outnumbering and using the magic I had I could fatigue or wear down the giants, but no such luck. Did I just not have enough troops? I did not have a SC.. would that have helped a ton? My pretender was a rainbow mage, I had no special heros. I know at least 3 big mistakes I made in this game, so I would do better a second time around.. but I'm just wondering was I doing the right thing, just not well enough, or was I doing completely the wrong counter.


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Thanks, and apologies for my noobishness. I'm trying and learning and hoping to join you folks in some "real" games eventually.

[thejeff]

Arcosephale?

The chaff troops will do little to nothing. Might slow them down long enough for mages to kill them.

Soul Slay. Enslave Mind. Paralyze. Petrify. Use penetration boosters and/or communion to boost your chances.

Don't fight them in cold dominion if you can afford it.

Fire spells do extra damage. Flame Storm?

Does EA Arcosephale have elephants? Probably wouldn't be too effective anyway.


Mind Hunt his commanders!

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Niefelheim has above average magic resistance... But at that age and game stage it may be worth mind hunting them. It's pretty inexpensive at 2 pearls, and they aren't likely to have many ways to boost their magic resistance, while you're likely able to forge eyes of the void for a penetration bonus, maybe something else. Though I can't remember the requirements for mind hunts...

In general, counters depend on the bless. If its just nature, I'd focus on damage and numbers.

If they have a heavy water bless, ranged may be your best option.

As Agartha, I'd focus on armor of Achilles and other armor destruction spells.

[Zylithan]

Thanks for your advice.

I'll read up on the spells you mention. My guess is many are astral and many are single target? So I'd need a lot of astral mages? I still need chaff to slow the giants from getting to my mages I imagine. Dominion was neutral or warm, I didn't have anything beyond fire 1 (except on my pretender, who was far away, but had fire 6 after multiple items buffing him). I had tried using "Fire from afar" with my pretender, but that would usually weakly injure a few units, and kill none according to my opponent. My Oreliads had lots of air magic, but I had trobule using them. As a tangent - what is "Breath of Dragon" spell supposed to do? It seems like my wizards always cast it (even if I script something else) and I have never seen it do any damage to any troop.

For units, I thought having the bigger arco units (aside from myrmidons, which I couldnt resource afford because my cap had only 2 wasteland neighbors, one ruled by Bogus) wouldn't help because of the giants' size.

[Zylithan]

thanks perfectionist.. hadn't seen your comments when I posted. I'll look into those spells also. I'm not sure their exact bless, but I know earth and nature are common on giants and water is just always popular so I should know how to stop that.

[Baalz]

The strength of Niefelheim's troops is really their cold aura. What you want roughly (specifics will vary depending on what you have available) is a couple of cold immune guys (undead, or give them relevant items) with high defense (25+). Because the giants are so large, only a few can attack at once, so for relatively cheap you can get a couple of linebackers that'll hold them back for a good amount of time so your mages have a chance to work. The typical bless for Niefelhiem is N/E, so I'm assuming its something like that. With Arcoscephale what'd work well is a communion of 8 or so mages casting..say...orb lightning. 4 masters + 4 slaves makes orb lightning practically free (you can cast it all day long) and if your masters start at 3a (seems like that's what EA Arco has available) you're throwing down 20 or so AN attacks per round. Fried giant in no time!

[thejeff]

I'm more familiar with the later Arcosephales. Wasn't it an astral nation in EA?

Try Charm as well. It's nature but short range. If you can make it work, they'll fight for you.

Air Magic? Thunderstrikes are good if you can get a lot of them. Fog Warriors might help, but not if he's got a F9 bless.

Against Neifel giants, single target one shot kill spells are what you want. They regenerate too fast to try to whittle them down.

Fires from Afar will damage a few troops. It'll kill normal humans, but the giants are too tough.

Breath of the Dragon does poison damage. It's nice, but does damage overtime and it probably canceled out by their regen.

Tougher/higher protection human units will still die in one hit so they aren't much use. Go for numbers but only as a meat shield. The mages do the killing. Massed summons can work too. Vine Ogres can make a decent wall. Living Statues or Mechanical Men if you've got the Earth magic.

[Saint_Dude]

Conventional forces are not effective vs. Niefel giants.

However, Your rainbow pretender as well as the Oreiads and Astrologers should be effective with the with the right scripting.

Some spells to consider:

Conjuration: Phoenix Power (F2), Summon Earth Power (E2), Power of the Spheres (S1), Light of the Northern Star (S3), and Will o' the Wisp (F1)

Alteration: Curse of Stones (E3) and Destruction (E3), Swarm (N1)

Evocation: Magma Bolts (E1, F1), Falling Fires (F3), Magma Eruption (E3, F1), and Thunder Strike (A3)

Thaumaturgy: Rage (F2), Prison of Fire (F3), Paralyze (S2), Confusion (A1), Soul Slay (S3), Enslave Mind (S4), and Hydrophobia (F1)

A couple of cold resistant thugs would be very helpful, especially if equipped with Fire Brands.

Fire Snakes also work pretty well vs. Niefels.

[Zylithan]

Thanks for the comments all. I've been avoiding learning about communion because it sounds tricky, but that's a lame excuse. Time to learn it. I did try orb lightning a little, but perhaps throwing it harder would have worked better.

Thanks!

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

What spells have you tried in combat?

If money is limited, but recruitment points aren't, consider mage engineers. You can also bootstrap fairly high into earth, though you'll be restricted by gems and fatigue limits.

Summon Earthpower will take you to earth two, and you can use further gems to cast as high as earth three. As many as two gems per spell, but earth three. So no fatigue 300 spells, since you can't use the minimum gems. Fortunately, a lot of earth spells are low fatigue, and you can cast some worthwhile ones without additional gems.

Earth Meld should be ignored, however, as should air's Fetters. They roll against strength and magic resistance.

That's about all I can offer at the moment, w/o a manual at hand or an online spell listing to refresh my memory.