DRAS - Tactical opinion needed!

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. So you want spells for killing SCs and elite troops that are still low-research and don't give an unfair advantage? The only thing I can think of is to make sure these spells cost a lot, so that you won't use them unless you ARE being bless-rushed. Shadow Blast is a good standard I think. It's a good spell, but it involves gem micro and requires multiple mages to get a saturation effect, which in the early game means pretty much only near your capital/main forts.

Thus, you could consider lowering the research level on:

* Shadow Blast (works vs. all kinds of troops, not so much SCs)
* Summon Air Elemental
* Iron Bane (GREAT for killing powerful sacreds)
* Fire Arrows (may be too powerful)
* Swarm
* Dessication

And possibly provide gemcosting, low-research versions of Frozen Heart, Incinerate, Stellar Cascades, Charm, Soul Slay, etc.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Sorry burn..

I absolutely think this is not necessary. There are no shortages to stop any of these situations. There are effective counters to almost everything, as low as research level 2.

Tangle vines
Earth Meld
call horror
dust to dust
bows of botuf
panic/frighten
smite

The problem is *not* that the counters don't exist. Its much more of a rock paper scissors problem - and no amount of modding is going to solve that, until the game becomes - we all play ulm.
(ie., the same nation) -ie., some nations only have counters to *some* tactics.

Even in instances where counters are available, players will not diplomaticize or send scouts to find out whose adjacent. Or upon finding it out they don't take reasonable precautions.

For example - recent game, pangaia cast carrion woods - and then looking at the charts it was demonstrable that the gem income was climing and climbing - whereas research was flat and nonexistent.

That player was site searching for gems. All well and good - but had no counter to Niefle when niefle came a callin.

The vagaries of who you start next to - recognizing what counters to be developed, and holy cow I better grow so niefle choses a different target are part of the charm of the game...

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Could make shadow bolt cheaper to shoot stuff like elephants.

Earth grip/meld also works.

The cloud spells too, sleep, freezing, rust etc - those can all be used in anti rush.

Yeah, Sleep Cloud should be good, although it can hit your troops pretty badly too. About Freezing mist and rusting mist, they're crosspath, making them useful just few nations. Freezing Mist is really only usable by LA Atlantis, Caelum and occansionally T'ien C'hi, and in some cases, Caelum is the rushing nation.

Rust mist is really only usable by Agartha, it kinda falls on the "too niche" bracket. The less changes I have to do, the better.

Originally Posted by Frozen Lama

prison of fire/bonds of fire?

Yeah, definately.

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Hmmm. So you want spells for killing SCs and elite troops that are still low-research and don't give an unfair advantage? The only thing I can think of is to make sure these spells cost a lot, so that you won't use them unless you ARE being bless-rushed. Shadow Blast is a good standard I think. It's a good spell, but it involves gem micro and requires multiple mages to get a saturation effect, which in the early game means pretty much only near your capital/main forts.

Thus, you could consider lowering the research level on:

* Shadow Blast (works vs. all kinds of troops, not so much SCs)
* Summon Air Elemental
* Iron Bane (GREAT for killing powerful sacreds)
* Fire Arrows (may be too powerful)
* Swarm
* Dessication

And possibly provide gemcosting, low-research versions of Frozen Heart, Incinerate, Stellar Cascades, Charm, Soul Slay, etc.

-Max

Hmm. Very good idea, thinking outside the box. I was pretty solid on my intention to not to include any new spells, but a gemcosting Frozen Heart or Stellar Cascades would be good, I have to admit. I probably could replace the absolutely 0% use spells with these kinds of spells (Freezing Touch, Healing Touch.. etc)

Shadow Blast also sounds like a good idea.

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Sorry burn..

I absolutely think this is not necessary. There are no shortages to stop any of these situations. There are effective counters to almost everything, as low as research level 2.

But the problem is that with difficult research, reaching that last straw in evocation 2 takes 160 research points. Very difficult research and we are talking about over 200 research points. Even if you manage to find out who your neighbour is (with your starting scout), say, turn 5, it will take precious time reach that spell before the end of year one. And even them, we talking about a single trick. Once the rusher finds solution that, you're screwed, since it will take at least 4 turns to reach another trick. Remember that most nations can't manage both good research and good expansion.

As for your example on the Panganea player, yeah, that's not too bright. But unless the game was difficult research I fail to see how it is relevant to this case.

[Illuminated One]

Being able to fend of a rush isn't the only problem that the weak nations have.
You will also need spells to make your troops effective against normal troops (indies, PD), so you end up with a much smaller empire and not in the position to overrun anyone (while the rush nation will find someone unless you make the counters really overpowered).
And honestly playing 30 turns just researching counters while your strategy looks like "archers in a big blob fire whatever, infantry in three small blobs hold and attack" isn't very funny imo.
If you want to keep it as simple as possible just give weak nations x points they can spend on research however they like before the game starts via map modding.