Magic Items under CBM

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by Quitti

Any sizeable death income tends to veer towards tartarians, not somewhat useless 2h weapons that cost a ton. I could see this argument if you used athame (ie. Blood Thorn) as your example, as blood is cheap and easy to get to those nations with access to actually forge the aforementioned item in general, and it allows you to actually wield either another 1h weapon or a shield alongside it. I don't know if this problem is due tartarians being so easy to get or being so cheap. Either way, I wouldn't certainly lose out two tartarians (gemwise, counting without hammer which would bring it down to around 1½ tarts) to a 2h weapon that can be surpassed in many ways by several 1h weapons at con4 or less.

So, because death has powerful summons available it should also have powerful magic items?

I do not agree and moreover, your comparison is rather suspect for several reasons.
Wraith Swords are available at construction 6, Tartarian Gate requires conjuration 9. There are a lot of research points in between. This is not even considering the availability of a sufficiently accomplished death mage.

The powerful Tartarians are also not quite as cheap as that. Sure, summoning one is a mere 12 death gems, but what you get is only a commander in 20% of the cases. If you were just spending death gems you would need an average of 60 gems to get a commander. Using 15 nature gems you can bring that down to 12 death gems.
That said, when you fulfil all the prerequisites, you will indeed seldom choose a Wraith Sword over a Tartarian. However, the same goes for a lot of things when you have everything researched.

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Amorphus, if you had the choice of crafting a Hero Blade, a Frostbrand+Vineshield or a Wraithsword, would you honestly even consider Wraithword? Lifedrain *is* good, no question about that, but IMO Wraithsword simply sucks donkey-poo compared with the other options available.

It depends. Which is sort of my point.
Even if we assume that I have all the paths necessary to craft all the options, necessity and gem availability might make the first two choices much less efficient than a Wraith Sword.

Consider for a moment a situation where you have a big beefy guy who needs some form of regeneration and reinvigoration. Neither the Hero's Blade nor the Frostbrand+Vineshield provides that, which means that you must fork over about 20 nature gems to attain it. Furthermore, as you are big and beefy, the Hero's Blade while good is nothing special and your opponents might not be very impressed with cold damage. Some of them may be naturally immune against cold, others through magic. And you may need your nature gems for other things like diversification or GoRing.

Maybe you want to set up a Tartarian factory. If you want to GoR your Tartarians you need as many nature as death gems, so if you have a larger death than nature income, you have more death than nature gems to spend.

It is a mistake to only think of situations where everything is researched and all gems are in equal demand. I can of course only speak for myself, but it is not uncommon for me to get into mid and late game with huge difference in gem income even in the paths I have covered in full. It has certainly happened to me that I had more than double the income in my most numerous gem kind than in the two following together. And that without any gem generating global up.

[Psycho]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

I do not agree and moreover, your comparison is rather suspect for several reasons.
Wraith Swords are available at construction 6, Tartarian Gate requires conjuration 9. There are a lot of research points in between. This is not even considering the availability of a sufficiently accomplished death mage.

The powerful Tartarians are also not quite as cheap as that. Sure, summoning one is a mere 12 death gems, but what you get is only a commander in 20% of the cases. If you were just spending death gems you would need an average of 60 gems to get a commander. Using 15 nature gems you can bring that down to 12 death gems.
That said, when you fulfil all the prerequisites, you will indeed seldom choose a Wraith Sword over a Tartarian. However, the same goes for a lot of things when you have everything researched.

That's not true for the simple reason that you will be saving death gems throughout the game, so that you have enough available once you reach conj 9.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

It is a mistake to only think of situations where everything is researched and all gems are in equal demand.

Of course! And I think that's a common mistake which CBM authors often do.
As for Brands, etc., it was a main CBM trend for some time to make AoE items cheaper/easier to research. This also includes Boots of Behemoth at 0 Construction currently, and Evening Star at 2 Construction (don't remember current version, but it was some time ago - I used it with devastating results).
Wraith Sword is quite useful - though it's possible that Standart of the Damned is better. But on the other hand, the latter reduces bearer's combat abilities, so he can be swarmed and needs bodyguards...