Byzantine Pythium - hype/brainstorming thread

[Digress]

Some spies and assassins of various effectiveness would certainly add to byzantine flavour.

Maybe some corruptor/seducer type commander - the Byzantines certainly had a knack for getting neighbours to change their allegiances on a fairly regular basis.

[LDiCesare]

I think flamethrowers were only used in naval warfare, or maybe some siege, so having a unit for these in Dom seems a bit strange.
What about chariot racer heroes?
Having only wizard priests sounds quite thematic, though, with all the byzantine religious bickerings, many priests should be hired by Byzantine rulers.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

I'm sorry, but I really like the Arch Theugs, and can't believe the old powerful communion priest have to go. I always thought that they were the most fitting thing for the nation.

Well, we are not talking about communion priests here. We are talking about communion *mages*, no one communions them to boost their holy power, but I have a plan to fix that. I have to go to work soon, so I won't go into details yet.

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

Spies might be appropriate but obviously unnecessary. Certainly more appropriate than assassins.

Byzantine had a pretty cut-throat imperial court. Assasins and spies are certainly very appropiate.

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

Maybe its the power of the arch threurges that bothers you, rather than the flavor.

Well, obviously. I stated in the first post that I wanted to tone the nation down. Their ridicilious power combined with the ridicilious age just creates a micro hell as you keep them alive with the regen battle bug and forge dozens of shrouds.

Originally Posted by kennydicke

It seems that Pythium is like Byzantium mixed with Sarmatian/Scythian influences. BigDaddy may have a point... maybe a new nation, not a replacement, is warranted?

Since I'm going to keep the infantry and most of the Theurg intact, it would be really bizarre and confusing if both the "vanilla" and "Byzantine" pythium were in the same game. Overwriting also allows me to save spell slots and avoid writing new units (which increases compactibility since I don't have to use new monster ID's). Also, less graphics work!

Originally Posted by Fantomen

When doing this mod, you should read "Röde Orm" by Frans G. Bengtson if you haven't already. It is a very nice viking story. Historically accurate and a substantial part of it also takes up the subject of vikings fighting for middle eastern powers.

No idea if you know swedish, but it is available in english as "the long ships".

I'll have to see if there is a copy at my local library. Thanks for the tip!

Originally Posted by Digress

Some spies and assassins of various effectiveness would certainly add to byzantine flavour.

Maybe some corruptor/seducer type commander - the Byzantines certainly had a knack for getting neighbours to change their allegiances on a fairly regular basis.

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I think flamethrowers were only used in naval warfare, or maybe some siege, so having a unit for these in Dom seems a bit strange.

Well, this is a fantasy game. I won't let historical accuracy be in the way of awesome. Besides it's not *that much* of stretch to assume that those cylinders would have been used in sieges and other land warfare applications.

I was thinking of a cap-only, heavily armored, high-resource cost infantry unit that can once throw a inaccurate blast of fire to a very close range and have a flaming melee attack with it.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

What about chariot racer heroes?

Certainly a nice idea. I was thinking of replacing gladiators with chariots, but I'll see if it's necessary.

I'll have to warn everyone though that this nation won't be that historically accurate. More like a fanboyish wet dream of what the Ancient Byzantine was like. (It is pretty certain that my version will likely present as very goody-goody although the reality was vastly different).

[Digress]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by Digress

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous. I hire this guy because he's so awesome. The Serpent Lord is almost as awesomely skilled, but rides a serpent that is really tough and keeps fighting (but you lose it after the battle), a light lance, and the benefits of being mounted. I already hire assassins to carry bows from time to time, but to give them yet another great commander unit is it getting silly, even w/o the Serpent Lord, the Emerald Lord still rocks hard.

*Yes, the lizard king does rock, but he needs equipment, and, while size 2, he isn't actually human.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous.

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue.

Well, my new randoms give them good access to "Astral Fires", so they'll be better battlemages than in vanilla. Hence, appropiate costing.

Originally Posted by rdonj

So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

Yeah. They're not really "byzantine" but are a cool unit (gameplay-wise) and I really like the conflict between getting a bless for a cap-only light infantry sacred and angel SC's. They've been overshadowed by Hydras since PPP, perhaps now they can see some use.

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by rdonj

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

You're right, they have a weakness, OMG... If you can't spare the nature gems, go with serpent lord. At least he doesn't have trouble hit and defending.

Battle Vestals are a joke stategically. They're fine thematically good, although I don't see why they aren't recruitable everywhere, except that Pythium really doesn't need a 'bless strategy...' other than a nice one for mages.

[Burnsaber]

Okay, my current unit line up:

New Units
-> Rus Horse Archers (forest/waste survivals, fast, composite bows*)
-> Heavy Cavalry - Can't remember the accurate name right now
(somewhat along the power level on basic knights)
-> Varangian Guard - (forest survival, two-handed axes, elite stats, cap only)
-> Flamethrowers* - (see below, cap only)

* not historically accurate, but whatever

Old units that go away
Serpent Catapharacts
Gladiators
Hydra Hatchlings
Hydras

New Commanders & Changes

-> Ambassador - (Spy)
-> Varangian Guard Captain - (Sailing, very good stats, cap only)
-> Imperial Alchemist - F1W1 (110% F/W/E), minor researchbonus (1), cap only
-> Theurg Artisan (iconographers, sclulptors, architects, etc..) - 1? H1 (100% F/A/W/S), forgebonus 10, minor researchmalus (-1) (they like to create, not sit in front of books), cap only
-> Theurgs - not old any more, magic changed to S2 2? H2 (F/A/W - linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands), gold cost increase
-> Arch Theurgs - multi-heroes, only slightly old, magic changed to S3 3? H3 (F/A/W -> linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands)

Old commanders that go away
-> Serpent Lord
-> Hydra Tamer
-> Arch Theurgs
-> Scout

New Spells
-> Angel summons to competetive no-clam prices
-> H1 communion slave (note that this will not work on pure H1 priests, only those who have an actual magic pick -> this piece of data is from my Holy War modding days)
-> H2 communion master
-> F2W1 "Greek Fire" combat spell, likely a fireball that leaves a small "Fire Cloud" behind.
-> Awesome H5,6,7 and 8 combat spells


As for the flamethrowers, I've gotten a nifty idea. I'll sort of make like them like "reverse salamanders" - good fire AoE attack, but they would cost a lot of resources instead of gold and have massive negative fire resistance. I'll probably ditch the ranged attack, since it's unlikely that they could fire with those cylinders very far.

Originally Posted by Festin

Theurgs are actually quite thematic for Byzantium-style nation. I always thought of them as of a fantasy parallel to the neoplatonic "theurgy" mysticism which was mainstream in Eastern Roman Empire in time of Julian the Apostate.

Yeah, they are. That's why I'm keeping them pretty much intact. Arch Theurgs, though, just are absolutely annoying because you have to recruit dozens of them (they are just so good) and then micro to keep them alive. Old age is not a balancing factor, it's just a pain in the butt.

I'm going to make Arch Theurgs multi-heroes and slighly reduce the magical power of Theurgs (but make them not old). Then I'll give the Byzantium Pythium a bunch of national holy spells (a H5 spell, a H6 spell, H7 spell and a ridicilious H8 spell). It's pretty obvious that those spells can only be really reached through communion and PoS -> You have priestly communions.

Originally Posted by Digress

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

Well, the problem is that we don't have that many tools to make seductors/corruptor type units. Seduce is clearly only meant for units that are so lustfull and beautiful that they can make someone switch sides (not appropiate for a dude in a robe). The corruption that one of the Lords of Hell has is clearly also out of the question for a recruitable, besides I can't give it to a unit without also giving the #demon tag.