WinSPww2 v4.0 Bug? Artillery don't show up as artilley

[Cross]

I can see that these guns would require less training, officer oversight, equipment and organization to be set up to shoot LOS only.

I seem to remember the issue of 'direct fire only' coming up in the past. Do I recall that the purchase cost for these guns is less than their indirect fire counterparts?


Cross

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Cross

I can see that these guns would require less training, officer oversight, equipment and organization to be set up to shoot LOS only.

I seem to remember the issue of 'direct fire only' coming up in the past. Do I recall that the purchase cost for these guns is less than their indirect fire counterparts?


Cross

Yes, IDF capable guns and mortars have a small points surcharge for the ability/training to fire indirect.

Anyway - a most useful site for all things artillery related is http://nigelef.tripod.com/directory.htm. See the section under "Technical Fire Control" for history and techniques.

Direct fire infantry guns are meant to be things like the 37mm infantry cannon, and larger pieces used like say 1914 WW1 French 75s. For use on targets in LOS of the battery, and especially things like bunkers and MG positions. Only howitzer equipped early WW1 arty tended to even train for indirect fire even if equipped with dial sights. By 1916 all artillery were doing it. As I recall, there was a sudden need for the officers and NCOS of the Royal Garrison Artillery to be posted to the front in the early part of WW1 since these guys were versed in indirect/trigonometric fire methods for anti-shipping work whereas the field arty had neglected the technique.

Indirect fire is a much more complicated thing to do (involving trig, survey, accurate maps, forward observation techniques etc) than simply laying for direct fire. I managed it on a 1 week school cadet force training course at Larkhill. Most of the week was on indirect techniques, and the direct fire bit was learning on the range by firing at old obsolete fire engines and buses and we had the basic idea after 3 rounds of 25pdr HE each as gun layer !.

Therefore ability to fire indirect comes from unit class (ie training) and is not inherent to the weapon itself. It is therefore perfectly logical to have arty piece XXX available in both classes. One will be used by "proper" artillerymen (gunners) trained in IDF or infantrymen ditto (e.g. the USA regimental cannon company), the other will have been issued to "mere" infantry with less involved training as a bunker-buster battalion/regimental support weapon and used pre-1914 style as a cannon fired over open sights.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Stonefire

Now I understand why they don't appear in the artillery menu, but then I must claim that this classification dosn't make sense.
335 is the germans 15cm sIG 33 and in the german OOB 016 unit 097 it is classified as Class 154. (but in the Greek OOB 031 unit 047 also representing the 15cm sIG 33 it is also class 16)

Can someone explain to me why those guns only shouldn't be in class 154.

Becasuse it's the USE the guns are put to by the various armies that are different.

In the Italian OOB the 15cm sIG 33 is only used as a direct fire infantry gun ( UC 16 ) but in the Greek OOB it's used as both UC 16 AND UC 154 ....

users of weapon ID 78 15cm sIG 33:
047 - 150mm Field Gun - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 06/036 to 05/041
293 - 150mm Field Gun - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/046
323 - 150mm Mtn Gun - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 06/036 to 05/041
327 - 150mm Mtn Gun - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/046


and in the German OOB it's ONLY used as UC 154 so can be indirect fired.

Originally Posted by Stonefire

Unit 333 in the Italian OOB 034 is the Ansaldo 149L17 and in the unit date it is shown that it has a minimum range of 60!

NO it does not. That second numbers does NOT always indicate "minimum" range. It also indicates MAXIMUM range depending on the circumstances

That weapon is used in these two units as UC 16 ( direct fire only )in the Italian OOB

333 - Cannone 149L17 - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 06/035 to 02/042
367 - Cannone 149L17 - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 03/042 to 06/043

367 has "sabot" ammo. When it's a gun like this "sabot" = AP ammo so it has limited anti tank capability and we limit the range to 60 so that someone doesn't fire AP ammo to the max range the gun is rated for and 60 is as far as you're ever going to fire a UC 16 Direct LOS Infantry gun anyway

That weapon is also used by.........

028 - Cannon Montagna - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 06/035 to 06/043

When it's used indirect as UC 154 it will happily target indirect exactly the same way any other indirect fire gun will work. That "60" is ignored becasue it's UC 154 In this case it will allow indirect targeting from 11-144 hexes from the gun which is all perfectly normal


Don

[Stonefire]

Originally Posted by DRG

Becasuse it's the USE the guns are put to by the various armies that are different.

In the Italian OOB the 15cm sIG 33 is only used as a direct fire infantry gun ( UC 16 ) but in the Greek OOB it's used as both UC 16 AND UC 154 ....

users of weapon ID 78 15cm sIG 33:
047 - 150mm Field Gun - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 06/036 to 05/041
293 - 150mm Field Gun - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/046
323 - 150mm Mtn Gun - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 06/036 to 05/041
327 - 150mm Mtn Gun - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/046


and in the German OOB it's ONLY used as UC 154 so can be indirect fired.

NO it does not. That second numbers does NOT always indicate "minimum" range. It also indicates MAXIMUM range depending on the circumstances

That weapon is used in these two units as UC 16 ( direct fire only )in the Italian OOB

333 - Cannone 149L17 - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 06/035 to 02/042
367 - Cannone 149L17 - uClass 016 : slot 1 - Available 03/042 to 06/043

367 has "sabot" ammo. When it's a gun like this "sabot" = AP ammo so it has limited anti tank capability and we limit the range to 60 so that someone doesn't fire AP ammo to the max range the gun is rated for and 60 is as far as you're ever going to fire a UC 16 Direct LOS Infantry gun anyway

That weapon is also used by.........

028 - Cannon Montagna - uClass 154 : slot 1 - Available 06/035 to 06/043

When it's used indirect as UC 154 it will happily target indirect exactly the same way any other indirect fire gun will work. That "60" is ignored becasue it's UC 154 In this case it will allow indirect targeting from 11-144 hexes from the gun which is all perfectly normal


Don

Hi Don - thank you for a good explanation - I have played this game and its variations since SP 1 replaced Norm Kogers Wargame Construction Set II:TANKS on my harddrive, but it is first time I came across this situation. I'm sorry it coincidenced with the release of v4 - I apologise the bug mentioned in the headline of this thread - but please notice the ? behind it.

Regards
Jesper/Stonefire

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by DRG

Well I just tried a campaign with onboard IG's and they behaved just like onboard IG's not artilery so perhaps that save game might come in handy though this does sound vaguely familiar

??

Just how far back did you report this ?

Don

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, as I pretty much forgot about this post in this thread. The 1st time I reported it wasn't on a thread of it's own, but more of a noticing something peculiar sort of note (It's on the last post here): http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=44571&page=2

That was on 1/2/10 and wasn't mentioned again until here on 2/19/10. As I reported it neither gun fired. One had sufficient range and the other did not. The 75IG should had never let me select the target because it was too far. I'm only guessing when I say the following, but perhaps that happening to the 75IG's, "IF" targeted first, and therefore trying to bombard something it could not, also screwed up the 150IG which was in range, since they were all targeted for the same hex altogether. It happened on 2 separate occasions as I said. Finally I resorted to bombarding much nearer targets and they both worked. I've since not done any research on that and unfortunately dont' have a save because I thought it wou8ld be something common with everyone on this new version. I've never seen an SP game do that before.

What I did with these guns goes entirely with my practice in using them. The difference being that usually I would pick out my target, look at available guns and fire them. Naturally, guns which don't have sufficient range for the target should not come up as selectable, but the 75IG's were.