Balancing Race Construction

[Baron Munchausen]

Of the advanced traits, only Hardy Industrialists really sucks. We need something else, like the ability to build ships on ANY planet, without a spaceyard facility, or something else really unique to replace this one. It's so much easier and more effective to just choose additional points of Construction Aptitude that Hardy Industrialists is useless.

The other non-technology racial traits are all pretty much worth 1000 points, and even if they aren't they can be adjusted to be worth 1000 points. Make the 'Propulsion Experts' trait give a +2 movement for example. Now it's a really nice advantage from the early game. As long as you don't fall behind in propulsion research you'll always be the fastest race around -- other than another Propulsion Expert race.

I think all of the racial technology trees are quite valuable, and of these the one you gave the highest value, Religious, is probably the least! It takes a long time for Religious facilities to give substantial benefits. And it takes a long time to get to the Talisman unless you short a lot of other necessary research. You have to take the 'long view' with a Deeply Religious race. Organic and Temporal give nasty weapons very quickly. Crystalline gives some very powerful defense advantages, and Psychic provides the 'system wide' training facilities that make training actually work for an AI, and eventually gives the very powerful Allegience Subverter. These are all valuable fairly quickly. I would not reduce the value of any of them.

I have to agree that Emotionless is too expensive at 3000 or even 2000, but making it less than 1500 or so turns it into a 'bonus' instead of a cost due to the ability to reduce your happiness levels to minimum.

[ July 24, 2002, 03:44: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[geoschmo]

I disagree that H.I. is useless, but I don't have any numbers to support my position. I have played several games where I was H.I. AND pumped the remaining points into construction. Being able to crank out ships so quickly really can make up for deficencies in a lot of other areas.

The thing about emotionless you got to remember is that it actually hurts you to select it. You pop doesn't riot, but they also can't be jubilant, and that makes a big differance empire wide on your production and research generation. And it's so unessecary too because there are so many easier ways to keep your people happy.

Geoschmo

[Pax]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I disagree that H.I. is useless, but I don't have any numbers to support my position. I have played several games where I was H.I. AND pumped the remaining points into construction. Being able to crank out ships so quickly really can make up for deficencies in a lot of other areas.

And of course, there's Hardy Industrialists and 150% Construction and Temporal Space Yard III, all at once, on a Jubilant planet.

Heh.

Anyone wanna build at ~15K per turn? Sick, isn't it? Now try putting it on a full Sphereworld.

*chortle*

[PvK]

Hardy Industrialists can be worthwhile, depending on how you usually operate, and combined with construction aptitude, can make superlative builders. It is also interesting that it affects only planetary shipyards, so don't replace it. I wouldn't make it any cheaper, either.

I strongly disagree that Propulsion Experts is overvalued. I would say it is actually far too cheap. Should be 1500 or more. Speed, especially FREE speed that is directly ADDED to other speed, is a massive tactical and economic advantage.

I think the racial techs are pretty well balanced with equal points.

Emotionless has the "happiness refund" and yes it does deny you some easy Jubilant bonuses when things are going well. As soon as you get in a serious war and lose a system or two full of planets, though, you will find out why it is an advantage, as all of your planets go to rioting, your 200-planet empire goes bankrupt in a few turns, all your construction queues halt due to lack of resources, your allies' economies are wrecked by their loss of trade income from you you, and your ships start falling apart and have to be mothballed, etc etc.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The value of HI is dependent upon play style. It is more cost effective than 25 points in construction. If you hardly use any ship or base space yards, and a lot of planetary space yards, HI is rather valuable.

How is 25 points in construction less valuable than hardy industrialists when they both cost exactly the same amount, both give the same benefit to planets, and the construction points also work on space based shipyards?

[oleg]

Because they add up. True, if you want to be inside 25% limit, + to construction is better. But if you want to get really fast builders, say 150%, then HI is a must.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by PvK:
As soon as you get in a serious war and lose a system or two full of planets, though, you will find out why it is an advantage, as all of your planets go to rioting,

By the time your planets get to rioting, it doesn't make a differenace anyway, you are beat. It may accelerate the end a bit, but it won't change the result.

But even at that it is so easy to prevent this from happening. An urban pac center, some warships in orbit, even a couple dozen troops on each planet(my personal fav) will all keep your people quite jubilant right up to the point when the enemy comes and glasses them into nothingness. And a 40% empire wide[EDIT:Oops, this should be 20%, but that's still pretty darn good] bonus to resource production is nothing to snif at. That and a 200 planet empire against a 200 planet empire of emotionless people and you won't have to worry about them glassing your planets and making your people unhappy, cause you will be glassing theirs.

Of course with your mod, troops don't make the pop happy, so perhaps there may be more of a use for the emotionless trait. But in the stock game I just dont' see it. Other than maybe for role play reasons. But if you use it, you have to work harder at the economics.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2002, 00:30: Message edited by: geoschmo ]