Ashdod is worthless now

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Niefel Giants have several difference to Annakites. First, they are cheaper (as in much cheaper). Second, they don't have encumbrance 7. Third, they have a frost aura that can help them to kill masses of troops (Except cold inmunes). So no, they are not in the same case than Annakites trying to kill chaff with 75 gold per attack ratio. Plus, in my opinion, Niefleheim would need a nerf more than Annakites did, but that's matter for another discussion.

Yes, they do have some differences. Lets start with they're in EA instead of MA, and so the expected opposition is stronger in the early game. Lets also note that they have weaker gear overall, and that they are vulnerable in hot provinces.

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.

And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one?

I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.

You know what other question you haven't answered? What other blesses worked previously with Anakim that no longer work. This may also be because no one has ever advocated a bless other than E9+ N4+ for anakim. Ever. If you'd like to provide *evidence* to the contrary, please link such posts. If you'd like to upload turn files from a game where Ashdod used Anakim with a bless other than E9+ N4+ and did well, that would also work. My guess is that you have no such evidence.

Or we can agree that everyone sane used a big E bless with a smaller N bless, and that to pretend they will ever be played otherwise is pure sophistry. Then the question becomes 'are they still worth using with that bless?', and all other considerations are irrelevant.

The fact it fly, has a decent fighting chasis, and, maybe, it petrifies everything that attacks them also had something to do with it. Actually, in my opinion, it was the other way around. It's not that Oiorpatas benefit from E9N4 more than they'll do from, say, W9B4 or whatever. The thing is they ended having that bless, becouse Gorgon was so awesome that nobody else used other chasis. And once you are pigeonholed to a Chasis that has Earth and Nature, it makes a lot of sense to have a E/N bless. There were cheap ways to get E9/N4 with other pretenders. People used the Gorgon becouse of the chasis.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that.

Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.

I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.

And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one?

I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.

Like it matters.... A group of 5+ Niefl giants produce such a cold aura that they would kill any non-cold inmune chaff by hundreds in no time. If Ashdod Giants would have a Fire Aura, I wouldn't find their 150g88r encumbrance 7 overpriced. They don't have, though. So they are overpriced.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that.

By multiple nations you mean Pangea? Or id there another one?

Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

Currently you can have cheap E9N4 bless with sauromatia with several options. Great Mother allows you E9N4 with Dom6 and 1 net positive scale, while the Gorgon let you have the same with 2 net positive scales. The diference in cost is not so high. The difference in effectiveness is, becouse Gorgon Chasis is 100 times better than Great Mother chasis.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by triqui

(for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least)

Like it matters.... A group of 5+ Niefl giants produce such a cold aura that they would kill any non-cold inmune chaff by hundreds in no time. If Ashdod Giants would have a Fire Aura, I wouldn't find their 150g88r encumbrance 7 overpriced. They don't have, though. So they are overpriced.

So MP competitive play among veterans is somehow not a good measure of what optimal play involves? I don't think that reasoning flies anywhere. No one is saying that it literally can't be done, but for optimum efficiency of resources and nation potential, if you wanted Ashdod's sacreds you used an e9+n4+ bless, and you do that with every giant SC nation. There is no other bless that will allow them to kill as much for as long, or make them as powerful later in the game.

As for niefel giants, they can be quite powerful, but they're also just not strictly necessary. You can expand just as well using nothing but niefel jarls and later on you will prefer not to have the giant upkeep. So giants are largely overlooked due to not being necessary.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by rdonj

So MP competitive play among veterans is somehow not a good measure of what optimal play involves? I don't think that reasoning flies anywhere.

No, that's not what I was saying. Of course is a good measure of what is optimal play... but the optimal play has to have metagame involved.

For example, among vets in MP competitive, thugs are incredibly important. So E9N4 is an awesome bless there. But if you happen to play in different playsets, other blesses might be better. For example, if you ussually play in 1vs1 blitzes in maps with 20 provinces, probably F9W9 (or even triple bless) would be better, as it's quite probable the game is over before thugs can start to dominate. On the other hand, if you happen to play in massive multiplayer games with 20 provinces per player and 15-20 players, then maybe S9 looks better, if only becouse it gives you a Wish per turn in the late game.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.

I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

(1) Considering suboptimal blesses like W6F6 for Niefl Giants doesn't help with balance decisions. You consider the best possible bless, balance the unit for using that, and that's that. If some other bless works, good for it. If no other bless works, oh well, that's the way it goes.

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'. A unit with its best possible bless has to be balanced. If someone takes a suboptimal bless, that's them taking a suboptimal bless. That is not something that needs to be balanced around. If everyone played W9 Blindfighters it wouldn't change the fact that W9 is an awful bless for Blindfighters.

(3) Anikim before the nerf wouldn't work with N9 or F6W6, so i don't see how that's at all germane to the discussion. This is not something the nerf changed. Those have always been terrible blesses for Anikim.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well. You can't expect me to even begin to consider that a serious bless for Nieflheim, with any number of players. Its strictly worse than E4N4 for Nieflheim, much less E9N4. *Not taking any bless* would be better than that.

(The Fomoria doesn't sound so bad - more scales than bless, nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure i'd call that an unmarked bless though, he just happened to use some unmarked. Scales are a viable build for most nations, with or without some light rainbow blessing.)

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Is bless the only consideration when building your pretender? Of course not. But it *is* the only consideration when it comes to judging whether or not its worth hiring a given sacred. In the context of a sacred a bless is either good or bad or indifferent. One possible bless is the best.

If people choose to use suboptimal blesses for reasons other than blessing their troops, well, that's due to considerations beside what their sacreds are. That has nothing to do with balancing sacreds. All your reasons for taking suboptimal blesses have *nothing to do with the sacreds*. So if that particular bless makes the sacreds unplayably bad, the solution is obvious - don't play with them! Use other units.

Surely you wouldn't advocate Niefl Giants should be balanced around assuming a W9 bless for them? They're clearly really bad units that aren't worth anywhere close to 125g at that point. But if we slash the price to 50g or whatever they might be worth with a W9 bless, then someone comes along with E9N4 Niefl Giants and destroys people because they're clearly undercosted. When we're talking about balancing sacreds, we should be assuming optimal blesses on those sacreds.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well.

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

Yes, but if the result is 'inevitably lose horribly', then its really not something that should be taken seriously.

You're welcome to play W9 anakim and do just as well in the current CBM, if you like.

[Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Actually strong dominion is a must with Niefelheim in general because every province without cold 3 gets income penalties. And its good for the popsicle giants in particular because of the Coldpower and Cold protection that they got.

Now the drawback is that you cant put Fire and Earth on him for diversity. Thats bad because those paths are a pain to bootstrap into unless you get lucky with indies or use Aschaic records.

This bless is also worse for your thugs (but we took it strictly for the troops). You have to put messenger boots on your skrattis if you want to thug with them. So thats 5 gems extra for every thug.