Finnish OOB 6.0

[dmnt]

Don etc, "keeping an eye on this" material, nothing final now, but a couple notable end dates 12/2016:

092, 093 23mm AAG
321, 322 Itpsv 91 AA, Itpsv 2010 AA although no replacement has been given - maybe keep 'til 2020 until replacement is announced?
561 SA-11 Buk-M1

FDF held a public press event where they represented the future plans for material upgrades as Finland will abolish personnel mines as per Ottawa treaty.

(In Finnish) http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/d8...df?MOD=AJPERES

Army will be the focus point in 2012-2020, 2010-2012 it was navy and air forces.

Page 6 is the important one: by 2016 most of the AT weaponry is to be replaced. Pasis (APCs) are to be modernized from 2017 onward, and Nasus to be replaced (Snow tracked vehicles). 81mm, 120 mm mortars and 122mm howitzer are usable as they currently are.

Now starts the guesswork: AT weaponry to be removed from service are most definitely M72, APILAS and 95 S 58–61 heavy recoilles. What's there to replace them? Probably more ATGMs and MBT-LAWs, but it's all guesswork.

Some artillery pieces (not specified) are going to be scrapped as well, but probably not SP arty.

Vehicles: NASUs definitely and maybe BMP-2 (and/or MT-LBs? BTR-50?), XA-180 / 185 will be taken out of service as well as older trucks.

As anti-personnel mines are to be destroyed, FDF already decided to start negotiating about obtaining small Oribter reconnaissance planes and is updating the AT mines, adding more Claymore type manually released mines. Also equipment for night vision, area surveillance, TI-GPS-Laser R/F equipment ("MARS", p. 29).

From 1/2009 on (p. 32) the snipers have had an optional TI scope in use
From 9/2011 on (p. 32) the section TI equipment has been in use.

[dmnt]

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

dnmt,
1. Are the "Jourkkotuotetut" units in your source front line AA units? I assume so, but I could see the ? asked only because my translator(s) didn't translate that word, issue being to clarify that these aren't test and evaluation and or training units. As your source indicates the first units will be equipped through 2013, so wouldn't JAN 2014 be a better compromise date to allow for any delays?

2. As was transferred from the Patch Post to the SP/SPAA thread Pg. 4 Post #35 Item A2 I was going to address the same issue on FC, VISION and EW. I generally agree with them and wonder the following if the EW would be better at 8(?), Vision 45(?), for the EW issue the network can shutdown once the AIM 120 AMRAAM has detected the target by it's own on board radar system. Also system operability and capabilities will greater as the radars are not as centralized as some other systems now that Finland and Norway are using the improved SENTINAL Radars.

3. See the April 1/11 note under the "Contract" section the SISU 8x8will be the main platform while the SISU 4x4 will act in the supply and support roles. The same info is in the SISU refs posted with the above mentioned Item A2. This why I only submitted the 8x8 and that as I well know you're aware of (That's a compliment.) the same thing as I concerning the general feeling about support vehicles i.e. radars and such and dare I say trucks in general as the "great" truck debate went on for a very short time around the time this was submitted in the PP Thread.

The below ref. covers all the above with most of the technical and performance data as well.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Systems-05398/

Pic:




Regards,
Pat

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

dnmt,
1. Are the "Jourkkotuotetut" units in your source front line AA units?

Joukko = Mass, troop, group
tuottaa = to produce

Direct translation would be mass produced, but in English it'd make you think of battle droids or something...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I assume so, but I could see the ? asked only because my translator(s) didn't translate that word, issue being to clarify that these aren't test and evaluation and or training units. As your source indicates the first units will be equipped through 2013, so wouldn't JAN 2014 be a better compromise date to allow for any delays?

Okay, let me open this up a bit. Finnish troops are trained from conscripts who serve 6, 9 or 12 months depending on assignment. The 2013 will be the first year they finish with the conscripts' training and list the troops in reserve units in their books. So the training will start in 2012 (probably NCOs trained from Jan 2012) and the first troops to get back home will probably be released in the beginning of year 2013 (Like January 4th or something). Usually when equipment gets to the public web page and when conscript training is fixed then the equipment is in use. I remember getting hands dirty on stuff that was yet to come, like night vision equipment and TI equipment in 1999, but it was only on evaluation and not in mass use and never listed in their standard equipment list.

The brigade lists the available positions for conscripts: http://tinyurl.com/c3nl86t
RO, NCO (362 days) and private/lance corporal (180 days)

Note that in Finnish system the RO / NCO are trained for 182 days before the rest of the unit troops arrive so they are all completed at the same time.

2. As was transferred from the Patch Post to the SP/SPAA thread Pg. 4 Post #35 Item A2 I was going to address the same issue on FC, VISION and EW. I generally agree with them and wonder the following if the EW would be better at 8(?), Vision 45(?), for the EW issue the network can shutdown once the AIM 120 AMRAAM has detected the target by it's own on board radar system. Also system operability and capabilities will greater as the radars are not as centralized as some other systems now that Finland and Norway are using the improved SENTINAL Radars.

It's hard for me to say anything about the performance, I'm such a novice when it comes to AA troops (tho I applied to get there, but they tried to move me to artillery long way from home and I pulled the "developing athlete, can't leave my team" card and they assigned me to the Guard Jaeger regiment along with other athletes...) that I have absolutely no standing in the performance section, only a gut feeling. I feel that the values given by you could be correct.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

3. See the April 1/11 note under the "Contract" section the SISU 8x8will be the main platform while the SISU 4x4 will act in the supply and support roles. The same info is in the SISU refs posted with the above mentioned Item A2. This why I only submitted the 8x8 and that as I well know you're aware of (That's a compliment.) the same thing as I concerning the general feeling about support vehicles i.e. radars and such and dare I say trucks in general as the "great" truck debate went on for a very short time around the time this was submitted in the PP Thread.

This could be correct.
http://tinyurl.com/bt6xnfz shows the platform on 8x8, but the text goes "jota voidaan kuljettaa millä tahansa vaatimukset täyttävällä ja koukkulaitteella varustetulla kuorma-autolla.": "which can be transported with any truck that fulfills the requirements and has a pulling hook device (for which I don't know proper English term)." Requirement is to be able to carry 7200 kg.

4x4 is pretty much on the limit, so I think it is out. The 4x4 might refer to other parts as you said. 6x6 could be used, but I think for the time we should stick to 8x8, as there are at least some proof that it's used. http://www.sisudefence.fi/sites/defa.../public/83.jpg

Thanks for your input!

[dmnt]

Oh, the 8x8 is the armoured version of the truck E13TP, recognizable by the cockpit resembling of an insect's head.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sisutruck/

"In April 2009, the Finnish Defence Forces ordered 12 heavy-duty 4-axle Sisu E13TP 8x8 model trucks. These are to be delivered by 2014 as part of a €25m order for 80 Sisu trucks to be used for air surveillance and air defence systems. The Sisu 8x8 trucks will be used as mid-range air surveillance radar carriers. Sisu will supply the trucks in cooperation with Thales Raytheon Systems."

Steel armour level 1 all around?

[dmnt]

Just to leave a note for myself:

http://www.suomensotilas.fi/pdf/huom...ysluettelo.pdf

Articles about Guard Jaegers, residential area fighting and equipment.

ACOG 77s and Aimpoint CS 74s seem to have been taken to use at that time.

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

NASAMS II units presented for media:
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Satojen+mil...a1354255221733

NCOs have been trained for the task since September, the privates to be trained will enter their service in Jan 2013.

Availability 6/2013 - 12/2020

[dmnt]

Note, Don, that later on the above specifications were tweaked a little bit based on the comparison to other units.

Vision 40 -> 45
EW 7 -> 8
Armor: Steel/HEAT: 1 all over

[dmnt]

Investigating, skip this Don

Has anyone any idea whether FDF is using XA-185 + TOW combination? I found lots of forum posts where people have seen Bv 206 + TOW or NA-140 + TOW combinations and even used them, but for XA-185 + TOW I only remember having heard about it in the FDF and coming up with some pictures from the internet:
http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...php/photo/8381

Wikipedia lists "some equipped with TOW turrets" but... no references.

Just prototypes? Are they disassembled already?

[dmnt]

Modify

BMP-1's were modernized in 1991-1994. They were equipped with the same Wegmann smoke grenade launchers as T-55MS got back in 1989. These smoke screens were used in BMP-1 and BMP-1Ps models.

Modify units 028, 029:
EW 3 (1 VIRSS shot)

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=17606
Pictures showing clearly the FDF insignia and smoke grenade launchers, right from the barrel.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_01.jpg
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_02.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-1_variants#Finland


Add
Finally, by accident, I was able to find a picture of a PaSi XA-203 with an ATGM.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1...iaxa2030uy.jpg

Copy unit 051 over 052 or 053 (no proof of XA-203+ ever existing)

Add weapon 165 PstOhj 83M or 169 Spike MR with appropriate number of shots (4?). Same availability dates etc.

As I served before 2002 when XA-203 was not available but I heard about XA-185 being able to host an ATGM I believe there should also be a XA-185 variant - but like I said, it's only hearsay and projection from this one picture of XA-203 with an ATGM.