Why no love for Caelum?

[Schmoe]

Thufir said:

Schmoe, I agree, but please don't be too hard on us "Caelum wusses". I promise next time I host a MP game to permit Caelum. And I'll even send you a PM prior to posting the game open message.

Fair enough. The Last MP game I played, I was Machaka and I attacked Caelum on about turn 10. We ended up fighting to a stalemate, with my Black Hunters doing a number on his mammoths and my archers doing well against his flyers. From that experience, I certainly wouldn't say that they were overpowered. Strong, yes, but beatable.

I don't have enough experience for these detailed balance discussions, but within those limits I'm inclined to believe those that are arguing that Caelum is not in need of a nerf. From my first SP games with Dom2 exploring various pretender/nation setups, I've never had the sense that Caelum was unbalanced. Instead, I had the sense that Caelum's units were weakened a bit to compensate for it's very important tactical advantage of flight. As far as I can tell, Caelum was designed well both aesthetically (or thematically, as people say around here) and from the balance point of view.

That said, Dom2 has got a very steep learning curve - IMO, it's kind of like the worst case between Chess (or better yet Go) and say Avalon Hill's Advanced Squad Leader (for those too young to remember that one - it had a fat 3 ring binder for rules that could take you weeks to read!). Usually, games as complex as ASL have a steep learning curve, but then once you learn a few key optimizations, your strategic options narrow dramatically. From that point the space in which you do your strategic planning is much smaller than in Go or Chess, and the game becomes considerably easier to play and improve in. Because Dom2 is so well balanced (IMHO), this narrowing of options doesn't seem to occur.

I suspect that there are many players out there, even at the intermediate level, that are still a bit overwhelmed by how much there is to learn in Dom2 play. From this perspective, it is very appealing (and possible) to chop out a good chunk of that learning curve by disallowing Caelum. Yes other nations are capable of inner province raiding, but no other nation depends on it. I can't imagine that a well played Caelum didn't include raiding as a key part of its strategy.

Of course, you could make a similar argument for Ermor, not in the sense of their depending on raiding, but that their unique abilities require them to be countered quite differently than most nations. However based on my initial SP play, I suspsect it's easier to learn how to counter Ermor, especially via SP play (I doubt the AI makes good use of Caelum's tactical advantage). Also, who can imagine an epic fantasy game that doesn't include undead?!

All in all, I look forward to playing MP games with/against Caelum, but I'm happy not to have had them in my first two MP games

I think you have some excellent points. The game offers a lot of very different strategies, and there is usually more than one counter to any particular threat. The trick is finding out what works, given your chosen nation. Considering that even a single-player game takes 2-3 days for me to reach the late stages, and I need to play several single-player games with a theme to get a passing familiarity with it, and there are more than 30 themes, I think that I will be discovering new tactics for a long, long time.

Or maybe I'm just a slow learner...

Either way, I'm definitely interested in hearing what other people have to say on balance issues - it is quite educational. However, I'm not going to pass judgement on it myself until I've had a chance to examine the issues and experience them first-hand.

[Sheap]

Personally I think Caelum and dead Ermor are too strong.

Caelum has A2W1 mages at 100 Gold, and A3W2?1 mages for 180 gold.
They fly and are cold immune.
They can trapeze, quickness, cast lightning that ignores armor, and such.

Trapeze, lightning and quickness are just what their magic paths do. You don't get to complain about their paths, and the spells they can cast with them, at the same time

Caelum has tons of problems. Yes, they are strong if you play right into their strengths, but that's true of everyone. Here are just a few of the problems...

1) Caelum troops fly, but relying only on the flying troops results in extremely weak units. The only flying unit they have that is also a good fighter is the Iceclad. But the iceclads cost so much that without a productivity scale you can build only a very few. And if you DO take productivity, you lose many points as otherwise you could easily afford sloth.

2) Caelum has serious, serious problems in heat scale. Of course, this is only useful if you happen to have heat scale

3) Caelum flying units can strike behind lines, but if they do that, any of them that rout die instantly.

4) Poor forging ability. Insignificant ability in earth, death, and blood is going to give them a hard time making many of the better items.

5) One-dimensional magic. Caelum can't summon anything useful except Air Queens, unless they build a blood economy around their pretender.

6) Caelum has a hard time with SCs that resist cold and lighting. Other than phantasmal warriors and false horrors, they don't have a lot of stuff that can stop an SC. And those only really slow them down, not stop them.

7) Their mages are at cross-purposes with their units. The mages want storms to protect themselves against enemy fliers and improve their lightning; the units want no storms so they can fly and shoot arrows.

[tinkthank]

I think Sheap is dead on with his excellent summary of Caelum and its weaknesses, to which a large number can be added easily.

One could note that both Man (tuatha) and Van have very very easy access to what Stormbinder calls "PD-killers", only that they are more expensive and much much beefier (and with glamour, yikes). Tien Chi S&A comes to mind too, and standard Tien as well with a pair of super-cheap flying boots. Well tons of nations can fulfill the role of PD-killer with flying boots, actually, but whatever.
I find Caelum to be very strong -- but, like Ermor (which I dont find that strong in MP), fairly inflexible. Strong, but not crying for a nerf; strong, but not bannable from games.

[Endoperez]

Well tons of nations can fulfill the role of PD-killer with flying boots, actually, but whatever.

I am wondering why no one is saying Return of Raptors too weak (edit: meant strong ). It does have the same pd-killers as Caelum, has Death magic to summon number of creatures and toughies and Earth magic to equip them, as well as strong Air magic to summon Queens of Air. Also, if they ever get anything that boosts Earth magic besides Earth Boots they will have lots of fun with Staves of Elemental Masteries...

I find Caelum to be very strong -- but, like Ermor (which I dont find that strong in MP), fairly inflexible. Strong, but not crying for a nerf; strong, but not bannable from games.

I totally agree with this.

[Stormbinder]

Well, my personal largest grip with Caelum is that it is the only nation in the game, against which any number of PD are totally meaningless. Single 100gp seraphim with no troops can rout even 20+ PD of any nation with no problem. All it need to do is to cast Quickness + endless line of false horrors. Couped with Caelum's ability to strike anywhere anytime it force any nation who is fighing competent Caelum player to madcastle like crazy.

I think it would be good if either false Horror spell would be made harder to cast (even a little bit, like Fatigue 10 air 2/3), and/or their "fear" value should be sharply decreased, or the price of the seraphims should be slightly increased.

[The_Tauren13]

from my ( very limited ) experience, archers will kill the ol quickness + false horror trick because the archers target the mage instead of the horrors

[Zapmeister]

from my ( very limited ) experience, archers will kill the ol quickness + false horror trick because the archers target the mage instead of the horrors

Sure. But he was talking about local defense.

[The_Tauren13]

dont some nations get some kind of archer for PD? or am i more n00b then i thought. heh.

[Sheap]

Ulm gets crossbowmen for defense. If they manage to hit the mage, that will take it out quite rapidly. But if the mage is far enough in the back that doesn't work.

Rlyeh gets an Illithid Lord commander who can whack the mage with a mind bLast - it's a question of whether the spell works before the false horrors scare all the chaff away.

Marignon gets crossbowmen too, but only with their "second stage" PD.

Other races get slingers but that is not useful against anything

That is the absolute first time I've heard of Caelum being the 'province defense killers'. There are alot of problems with Province defense and it's feasibility/usability vs Castles, but Seraph are not top on the list. Any point after turn 20 in the game there are so many things that can kill high costing PD that Seraphs are the least of your worries.

Anything with Raise Skeletons, quickness/frozen heart, false horror, blade wind can clear most PD without much effort. The main problem with PD is that they are so vulnerable to even mini-combatants.

Caelum is more than likely Banned in most of those games, because of the new influx of Map Designers, and their tendancy to overterrain maps. Causing nearly all nations to be at a strategic disadvantage and Air being more overwhelming than it already is. In such instances of heavy terrain flagged maps, flying is king and Caelum is king of flying and Air Gems for summons that fly and flying boots.