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Suicide Junkie

January 6th, 2002, 10:56 PM

It is only potential.

The same thing occurs on a smaller scale if you try to build a single 200 mineral mine on a planet: you don't waste 1800 minerals and 2000 org & rads.

Suicide Junkie

January 14th, 2002, 04:21 AM

Update:
I'm in the middle of adding the grav techs, and I discovered that the sector - sensor interference ability dosen't work on components http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I currently have:
engines for ships & fighters
(grav tech lev 1-4, and 2-5)
Graviton Flux Cannon (platform weapon)
(grav weapons lev 4-6)
Adv. PDR
(grav weapons lev 1-3)

In progress:
Missile Launcher upgrades (+4 speed all missiles)
(grav tech lev 1-5)

Still to add:
Singularity mines
(grav weapons lev 3-5)

Racial Techs (to be added):
Crystalline - missile upgrade
Organic - missile upgrade
Psychic - ?
Religious - ?
Temporal - ?

Note: I increased the power of those platform GravyGuns, and now, at optimum range, the level 1/2/3 cannon has a damage rating of 2.5/5.0/10.0, armor piercing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , but the damage does fall off exponentially (half power for each square away from optimum).

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]

EDIT: Oh, almost forgot: To be Added: smaller/earlier warp point manipulation devices.

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]

jimbob

January 14th, 2002, 05:37 AM

"sector - sensor interference doesn't work on components"

Well crappy, I've got to say I'm disappointed with that limitation. I didn't really test it as well as I should have!

<blockquote>quote:<hr> half power for each square away from optimum <hr></blockquote>
What is optimum distance now?

Ciao

Suicide Junkie

January 14th, 2002, 04:08 PM

Roughly 11 (same as your original IIRC). The max & min range spreads out from there as tech increases.

I thought we'd come up with some racial crossover techs, but I can't seem to find that in the thread...
We still need three more, as below.

For temporal-grav, how about "Relativistic Stasis Generator", which slows down time for ships (when idle only) reducing maintenance. (Similar to crystalline thing, but ship-based)

jimbob

January 15th, 2002, 03:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Graviton Flux Cannon (platform weapon)
(grav weapons lev 4-6)<hr></blockquote>

Is this the black hole projector? With the tech levels (4-6) that's my guess. What did you decide for a final damage, size and cost? Does it still have the minimum range limitation?

I didn't notice the inertial dampener stuff, did you keep it? [edit: never mind... engines]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>
Racial Techs (to be added):
Crystalline - missile upgrade
Organic - missile upgrade
Psychic - ?
Religious - ?
Temporal - ?
<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, cross overs are tough... Space-Time Ripper for the Temporal (massively nasty ramming weapon?)

Meditation dome for Psychic (fully re-create the experience of the womb through psychic harmonic memories backed by near zero-gravity effects).

For Religious construct absolutely massive temples by utilizing antigravity suspension systems.

Is the gravity tech tree as fleshed out as the other trees though? Biological and religious seem to have a great deal more techs than what we have for gravity. Am I wrong? Are these techs just really powerful, and therefore sufficient?

just some questions and thoughts
jimbob

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Suicide Junkie

January 15th, 2002, 06:13 AM

Yeah. One thing I discovered was that a black hole big enough to be containable (low enough temperature) would contain enough energy to roast an entire solar system.
Therefore, I won't make any normal tech blackhole devices (SM is ok, since the effects are appropriate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )
I'm going to explain away the Psychic MSG's as being gram range warheads, and allow the psy powers the ability to compress pebbles down to the plank scale (in order to form a BH). Obviously, it takes many hundreds to a thousand beings working together since the component takes up 70KT vs a 10KT crew quarters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Name := Graviton Flux Cannon III
Description := Planetary gravity is focused into a massive, turbulent pulse, centered at the location of an enemy vehicle. The focal point is restricted to long range to avoid irreparable damage to the planetary surface.
Pic Num := 102
Tonnage Space Taken := 100
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 5000
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 1000
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2020
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Advanced Gravitic Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets
Weapon Damage At Rng := 0 0 0 0 0 0 500 1000 2000 4000 8000 4000 2000 1000 500 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Armor
Weapon Reload Rate := 8
Weapon Display Type := Torp
Weapon Display := 36
Weapon Modifier := 50
Weapon Sound := gravhell.wav
Weapon Family := 20

Crossovers:
- "Sky Temples" (double effect? One facility slot for all 5?)
- Space-Time manipulation of some sort (weapon, maint reduction.
- Psy: Ooh, what about a remote control for ships? Something about combining Tk and grav abilities. Perhaps a more effective boarding defense (sit behind a bulkhead while shredding enemies with gravyguns)?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Is the gravity tech tree as fleshed out as the other trees though? Biological and religious seem to have a great deal more techs than what we have for gravity. Am I wrong? Are these techs just really powerful, and therefore sufficient?<hr></blockquote>While these techs are quite powerful, the most powerful ones have limitations as well. The racial trait covers quite a bit of ground as well:
- 6 missile types accelerated
- platform guns
- early/mobile warppoint manip
- powerful Q-BH mines (detectable by maxtech grav sensors, but just one can vaporize a big ship)
- point defense repulsors

For comparison, organic has:
- armor
- seeker, beam & 2 pulse weapons
- medical, reproduction & pure-pop facilities

dumbluck

January 16th, 2002, 01:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I thought we'd come up with some racial crossover techs, but I can't seem to find that in the thread...
<hr></blockquote>

Right now, its on pages 4 & 5. What, I'm not bored! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Suicide Junkie

January 17th, 2002, 02:53 AM

LOL, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, how about "Sky Temples" (rel), "Predictive Grav Deflector Shield"(psy), and "Temporal space yard (component)"?

jimbob

January 18th, 2002, 04:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Description := Planetary gravity is focused into a massive, turbulent pulse, centered at the location of an enemy vehicle. The focal point is restricted to long range to avoid irreparable damage to the planetary surface.
...
Vehicle Type := Ship<hr></blockquote>

If the weapon is ship bound, then it no longer needs the range restriction... in fact one would be tempted to use it on enemy planets. Also, the weapon needs the presence of a large gravity well (ie. planet) to cause damage.. for the sake of continuity, what if the ship using the weapon is in a system with no planets? That is why the original Vehicle Type was set to "Platform" (and to balance the fact that it's really powerful).

I like the shield thing for the Psychic cross over. And the floating temple would be very cool (I'm looking forward to the picture.. would it have Aztec priests throwing the unfortunate sacrificees to their destruction? We can only hope http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Suicide Junkie

January 18th, 2002, 05:56 AM

Yikes, it appears that only the GFC III had "ship", the rest were weaponplatform only, as they should have been.

I thought I copied from GFC I to II to III. Wierd!

In other news, I've finished the missiles, and have put in the grav mines.
5K, 4K, 3K damage, and require grav sensors I, II, III to detect.
I have described the mines as blachholes, and to keep the total power output upon detonation lower than "Vaporize the entire star system", the mines use an external grav field to contain the radiation of a much smaller hole, pumping it back in to maintain stability until you want it to blow up.

RE: images.
I'm no artist, so I'm thinking of using the Vaccuum Gas Giant colony pic.

I think I'll go ahead and tweak all of the cloaking/sensor techs now... Gravity cloak levels will be based entirely on the mass of the ship, for one... Your grav sensor III will see Stealthy Baseships & BattleCruisers, but the Escorts can pass by undetected.

Small size defeats gravity sensors...
Stealth armor defeats passive sensors...
Scattering armor defeats active sensors...
Master computers defeat psychic sensors...

What could defend against temporal sensors, though?
If nothing, then what would be a good alternaive description for temporal sensors to allow hiding from them?

jimbob

January 19th, 2002, 02:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Small size defeats gravity sensors...
Stealth armor defeats passive sensors...
Scattering armor defeats active sensors...
Master computers defeat psychic sensors...<hr></blockquote>

Having an achilles heel for every sensor type, I like that! Was that in the original P&N and I just didn't see it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>What could defend against temporal sensors, though?<hr></blockquote>

Sloth? Wait, no that's one of the seven deadly sins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
Doesn't time slow down with an increase in the velocity of the ship (ie. time is distorted by higher velocities)? So the slower the ship, the harder it is to detect!?

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Fyron

January 19th, 2002, 03:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>What could defend against temporal sensors, though?
If nothing, then what would be a good alternaive description for temporal sensors to allow hiding from them? <hr></blockquote>

You could say that the temporal sensors use chronoton particles that are capable of detecting objects in the normal space-time continuum, and then have a "chronoton shield" that can cloak a ship from temporal sensors.

Alternatively, have a "time-flux generator" that removes the ship from the time-space continuum, which would cloak it from temporal scanners because it no longer creates any temporal distortions.

The second suggestion seems like it would require you to be a temporal race to do, so I think the first would be better.

Suicide Junkie

January 19th, 2002, 06:43 AM

Unfotunately, there is no way to determine the speed of a ship from the hull, or to set a cloak level depending on the number of engines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

And it does sound like any sort of temporal defense would require temporal technology http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Was that in the original P&N and I just didn't see it?<hr></blockquote>No, I'm just thinking of adding it now... if I can figure out what to do with the temporal bit.

What about totally changing the temporal sensor to... a generic sensory thing.
It would have a little bit of all three standard scan types.
The larger the ship, shinier the hull, the bigger the effect it has on objects around it, leaving larger "causality ripples", detectable by the temporal scanner. Just filter out the background static, and known objects like planets & asteroids & visible ships.

I could then use the temporal ability to make a whole new cloak type, perhaps a Computer Security vs Hackers system?
Remove computer viruses, and use a biotoxin weapon to destroy both people & the organic bits of the MC.
Now, if you have an elite team of hackers aboard, you can spy on the automated systems aboard ships, unless the MC (Level 1 protection only) or E-security (Levels 1, 2, 3 & 4) teams block you.

If Destroyers are the first to be notices by top-level grav sensors, then we have 200KT to pack in the other cloaks on a Frigate.
20 for MC, 30 + 50 for EM.
That's half the hull space to provide enough cloaking to avoid All detection except by Temporal-?->Hackers.
That leaves 100KT for Engines, Defenses & Weapons, to be used when the ship decloaks.
At best, that might be an unshielded Plagueship, easily wiped out by platforms or sats, roasted in bunches by a ship, or invalidated by a medical ship.
As a long range scout, if equipped with solar panels and engines only, it might be useful.
Or, as an undetectable sensor buoy, if given grav sensors as well...

While awaiting comments on the temporal to multisensor, and temporalcloak to electronic security...
on to sensor packages!

Cost, size & platforms
Restricting sensors to maintenance-using platforms...
In order to make maintenance of your sensor nets an important issue, and thus enabling the cost & size to factor into buying decisions, only ships and bases should be allowed to carry sensors.
We can justify this for ship by requiring the sensor to be moved around in order to get a reliable reading. For bases, we can allow a much larger Version to be used, which works while stationary.

By now, you should be thinking that everybody will have to carry a grav sensor by default, since it can always see ships destroyer or above.
So, it will be a very expensive and large piece of hardware http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Perhaps 600KT, and $20K for the ship-mount, and 1200KT/$10K for the base mount (1/4th maintenance of the ship-mount). Mostly radioactives, but a few thousand minerals too.
These sensors will only become mountable once ships large enough to be detected arrive, so it all works out OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The next thing: everybody already uses stealth armor for the 15% defense bonus, and the armor is only 30KT and dirt cheap. We can allow passive sensors on anything, though more powerful Versions should be larger.
30KT/50KT/90KT, say. You can fit even the biggest passive on a medium sat, or a small sat if you "think big" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Mineral cost all the way, but under $1000 for the level 3. Except, add $1000 rads, $250 organics and $9000 minerals for the self-powered, and self-maintaining sattelite Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

The other standard tech sensor: Active EM.
You're breaking through a 50KT lump of crappy armor that used to be of little use. 15% ECM in a 50KT space that is almost always better used for an additional shield generator or gobs of armor.
We can throw this one in between the others.
?60KT/120KT/180KT?
$3000 radioactives, plus $1000 minerals, and a bit of organics.
We can pack a level 1 onto a sat, 2 if we think big, and the level 3 can only be used on a ship/base.

OOh, the psychic sensor!
We get to go wild on organics cost, $5000, with $500 mineral/rads.
Space requirements should be in crew quarters/lifesupport... 2/4/8? (thats 40/80/160KT)
Only allowed on Ships/Bases, since sats can't support people permanently.
(This may seem harsh, but we'll see about the defenses later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

And, the Hackers.
They need some decent hardware, and lots of power to run it. They also need lots of snack food and coffee. Gobs of maintenance for the salaries.
100KT/40KT/20KT, since we start working better, not harder.
Cost still goes through the roof to get these people...
$1000 (all 3) up to $10,000 (all 3)

Defenses
Grav cloak is a basic part of the hull, no extra cost.
- Battlemoons and other bigboys block nothing
- 1599KT to 600KT block Level 1 (BattleStation)
- 599KT to 300KT block Level 2 (Cruiser/Space Station)
- 299KT to 1KT block Level 3 (Frigate/Any unit)

Both EM cloak types:
Armor tech alone Blocks Level 1.
Cloaking tech levels then upgrade the armor to block levels 2 and 3.
Prices may be increased.

Master Computers:
All MCs provide block Level 1 Hacking attempts
MC I/II/III, block psychic scans at Level 3/2/1.
IE: the more compact the computer, the easier to detect as a thinking lifeform!

E-Security:
Say, 30KT continuous, but rapidly increasing in mineral/rad cost.

PS: one more note, incase you've read this far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
How about labelling the various scanning/cloaking levels with something meaningful.
IE: instead of "Level 1 Hacking" use "Script Kiddies"
Level 1 Passive is "Visible-band EM"
Level 2 Passive is "All-band EM"
Level 3 Passive is "Actively suppressed EM"

I need some suggestions for the hackers, psychics and active EM.

PPS: if you don't like the hackers idea, please suggest something else.

PPPS: in fact, any suggestions are welcome.

Phoenix-D

January 19th, 2002, 07:30 AM

"What about totally changing the temporal sensor to... a generic sensory thing.
It would have a little bit of all three standard scan types."

You could.. but this leaves you with another cloak type to play with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You don't *have* to leave it temporal, I think; could be moved elsewhere.

Lesse.
Active EM
Passive EM
Gravitic
Psi

I'm trying to think of something else a ship could "leak" that would let it be picked up. Communications? Engine wash? Stray tachyons from the power plants? Warp emissions of some kind?

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

January 19th, 2002, 05:56 PM

One minor detail: I was going to make the SENSOR do generic work, thus freeing the temporal CLOAK for something else...
such as Hackers/E-Security (acting like a cloak/sensor pair)
(Where hacking in only lets you see the location of the enemy ship, not control or damage it)

jimbob

January 23rd, 2002, 06:25 AM

I wish I could come up with a good idea for the temporal scanner, but no ideas yet... too bad ship velocity can't be used. No ideas yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

<blockquote>quote:<hr> By now, you should be thinking that everybody will have to carry a grav sensor by default, since it can always see ships destroyer or above.<hr></blockquote>

Would inertial dampeners decrease the mass of the ship enough to hide larger ships from gravity sensors?

Suicide Junkie

January 23rd, 2002, 03:29 PM

Inertial dampers were converted into Grav-Spike engines. (+1 thrust, -1 supplies used)

PS: Is there any reason why nobody has commented on my idea about the temporal cloak ability being used for "E-Security" and temporal scanner ability being used for "Hackers"?

Suicide Junkie

January 24th, 2002, 04:57 AM

Finally here: The P&N v2.5 (Beta) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011840919.zip)
Direct any bug reports or tweak requests to this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 11th, 2002, 05:57 AM

P&N for PBW is out!

And, the AI Patcher has been revived, simpler to use:
- Browse your harddrive to get to the AI files.
- Click the "Patch this AI" button.

Features:
- All files from one AI are patched at the same time.
- Security feature prevents double-patching and lost backups.
- Will automatically decrement one characteristic if required because of the new "choose characteristics, then advanced traits" feature of SE4.

PS: Click the P&N "Downloads" link in my sig to get this.

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]

Phoenix-D

February 11th, 2002, 08:48 AM

"All files from one AI are patched at the same time."

ARG! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif So much for that. Techmod uses the same engine scheme as P&N, so I was just using your patcher to update the AIs. Oh well, I think I still have an old Version in here somewhere.. I just won't be able to refer people to your tool to make that easier.

Phoenix-D

dumbluck

February 11th, 2002, 08:52 AM

If you don't have one, I still have a copy of it.

ts22

February 11th, 2002, 04:05 PM

So now that I have to wait another month for SEIV Gold, I have decided to check out this P&N mod. Without reading through 30+ pages (wow!), could someone tell me what I need to do to get this mod? Do I need to download all the Versions or just the latest? Thanks a bunch!

Suicide Junkie

February 11th, 2002, 07:03 PM

It sounds like you've found the download page.

All of the Versions are fully self-contained, so unless you need an old one (for example to play one of the scenarios), just D/L the latest Version.

V2.5 PBW has some tweaks that may hinder the AI a bit, but it shouldn't be too bad.
If you wait until wednesday night, I'll have a non-PBW v2.5, and I'll include some friendlier quadrant types.

Also, for maximum challenge, choose to be a pirate or nomad, rather than a "Normal" race.
As a Pirate/Nomad, feel free to use all the tricks in the book, assuming you can afford them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As the minimum, download one Version ZIP (the latest).
Extract it to your SE4 folder; it will create a "SuicideJunkieMods" folder and a "copy of path for P&N#.#.txt" file.
Replace path.txt with the "copy of..." file, and run SE4.

Note that most savegames and saved empires are not compatible with P&N v2 due to changes to racialtraits.txt
As a quick guide to compatibility. Savegames are not compatible between different Version numbers, but are compatible between different Version letters. Saved empires are slightly more flexible.

Addons:
- P&N comes with all of the standard races appropriately modified to play under P&N v2.5.
If you wish to add new races, such as TDM modpack races, you also need to download AIPatcher2.exe.
To use the AI patcher:
- run the patcher, and a blue program window will appear.
- from the combo box in the top-center of the window, choose "P&Nv2"
- on the left side, there is a directory tree with a drive selector below it. Double click folders in that to browse to the location of your AIs inside the P&N modfolder.
- When you get to a valid AI, you should see the words "Found AI_General.txt" in the status box on the right.
- Click the "Patch This AI" button.
- After a second, the status box should read "completed AI_general" and "completed AI_designcreation"
- if you see "Forced to decrement a characteristic", then the AI has lost 1% in something (likely maintenance reduction), but the patch has completed.

If an error occurs, clicking Abort will restore the files to their original state. Retry will try the patch again (in case you've changed the file in the meantime), and ignore will continue on with the next file to patch.

ts22

February 13th, 2002, 06:39 AM

Thanks for the info! Got it working and it is very fun! I really like the way the engines now work, gives the game a more realistic feel. I haven't combined the P&N with the TDM Modpack files yet but will soon. Thanks again. Great work.

Suicide Junkie

February 14th, 2002, 02:49 AM

You're welcome.
Since you've gone with the PBW Version (I assume), I'll hold off on the basic v2.5 until I can include all of Val's component images. That should be very cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Suicide Junkie

March 2nd, 2002, 09:12 PM

I found a bug in the AI patcher, and so a new Version has been uploaded.
This only affects conVersions to P&N.

Phoenix-D

March 3rd, 2002, 12:33 AM

"Temporal =>=> Electronic Security/Hackers (0% done)"

Hmm. I like changing things, but this doesn't seem right to me. IMO to hack something you need to be able to reach it, and see it. Having hacking allow you to see a ship seems strange. Maybe as an intelligence action, but I don't think that's possible..

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

March 3rd, 2002, 01:43 AM

I was thinking along the lines of "pretending to be a civilian ship" sort of stuff.

If you have a suggestion for a regular-tech cloak/sensor combo to use instead, I'd welcome it.

Phoenix-D

March 3rd, 2002, 02:00 AM

Eh. OK, that makes more sense.

Let's see.. we have Active EM, Passive EM, Gravitic, Pysic (sp) and Temporal to work with. You want to change temporal.

The EM spectrum is covered, and I really don't see any way to do "active gravitic" other than, oh, throwing rocks..maybe Tachyons? Whups, the active sensor is named Tachyon sensor, isn't it.

Hmm.

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

March 3rd, 2002, 02:36 AM

I'd renamed the tachyon sensors to just Active sensors.
Levels 1-3 are EM, wideband EM, then tachyons.

If you can think of something to fill in the top slot in the active Category, then the temporal sensor could be based on tachyons...

Note: they top slot must be defeatable by sufficiently advanced scattering armor.

Phoenix-D

March 3rd, 2002, 03:44 AM

Fullband EM perhaps? (wideband being more of the spectrum than standard, but fullband being ALL of it)

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

March 3rd, 2002, 05:17 AM

Further into the high-energy bands, since they're harder to use/control, I suppose. Works for me. "X-raydar" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Any ideas about how to hide from three levels of tachyon sensors?

Phoenix-D

March 3rd, 2002, 06:35 AM

The tacyons would mostly come from the reactors and engines IMO..I use Engine Baffles for the equvilent in Techmod, but that might not make as much sense here (there it applied to passive sensors)

Hmm. "Tachyon Dampener" is already taken by the weapon-killer defense, isn't it.

EDIT: that would be for a passive-type tachyon sensor (it could go either way, but you only have one leftover sensor type..)

For an active type tachyon sensor, something like "Tachyon Scatterer" or "Tachyon Brake" might work. Tachyons are FTL only, so if you slowed them down below light speed.. poof. hence the "brake".

Phoenix-D

[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Suicide Junkie

March 3rd, 2002, 07:23 AM

Well, we can go with the tachyons, and I'll just domino-bump the description of the weapon destroyers.

What king of thing could damage weapons only?
Something that causes ammo to prematurely detonate, perhaps?

Phoenix-D

March 3rd, 2002, 08:21 AM

Sure. But then you have a problem with energy weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I suppose it could overload the power source for those or something.

EDIT: for that matter there's no reason tachyons couldn't do both. Think about radar vs laser. Both use EM radiation, but one is a sensor, the other a weapon.

Phoenix-D

[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Suicide Junkie

March 3rd, 2002, 07:36 PM

Good point. Sounds like a plan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I can expand the tachyon damper tech into a cloaking device as well.

PS: An off-by-one bug in P&Nv2.5 PBW has been found:

"Heavy Bombardment Missile IV (G-spike)"
Number of Tech Req := 2

should be:

Number of Tech Req := 3

It is probably easiest to change this manually.

[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Suicide Junkie

March 24th, 2002, 07:08 PM

I have finally finished the major coding for v2.6 PBW. As well, I've done some preliminary testing this weekend, and cleaned out the obvious problems.

I am now looking for people to help test the mod, and to suggest improvements & tweaks.
It is certainly a No-AI mod, so I'm thinking of starting a PBW game. The PBW game forum would be quite useful.

See the P&N download page (http://www.geocities.com/hohoho611ca/pirates.html) for some of the major changes since Last Version.

Anyone who is interested, please reply here.

Fyron

March 24th, 2002, 09:57 PM

I'd be interested in helping to test it. I haven't played much with P&N, but from what I have seen so far in "P&N on PBW, take 2" over at PBW, I like it. My colony ships and scout ships actually cost more Radioactives than Minerals! Aaron should take some of the basics of your mod (namely the balanced resources and QnP) and use them for standard SEIV.

jimbob

March 26th, 2002, 03:15 AM

I'm in.
There are a couple of other guys I've been bugging to try out P&N, so hopefully they'd be in too. I'll get back to you on that.

Gold? I couldn't find 2.6, just 2.5b and 3.0

Edit:
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Weapon/Supply Restructuring
-Energy weapons have drastically reduced supply usage, boosted radioactives cost (PBW: 100% done)
-Matter weapons have drastically increased supply usage, resource prices only include launcher/cannon/etc (PBW: 100% done)<hr></blockquote>

I like the restructuring.

[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Suicide Junkie

March 26th, 2002, 06:38 AM

I've PM'ed you guys.
The more the merrier I say.

Suicide Junkie

March 29th, 2002, 02:54 AM

AIPatcher2b.exe (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1017363166.exe) is here!

Corrects an uncommon bug, where vehicles with zero misc abilities were incorrectly patched.
Added an explicit modchoice for P&N v3.0

jimbob

March 29th, 2002, 08:03 AM

So, not being the big modding guy and all, I generally come up with about... oh 1 idea per month. And so here's my idea.

The NanoTechnology tech tree

I've been thinking of introducing a three levels of nanotech; i) miniaturization, ii) nanotech1, iii) nanotech2. I'm sure there's a mod out there with nanotech, so hopefully my ideas could be harmonized.

i) miniaturization would give astromech droids (a la Star Wars), 40% smaller plasma missile components, and a couple of other things that are sitting on my hard drive at home (ACOOTTASOMHDAH).

ii) nanotech1 would give some nasty bioweapons,ACOOTTASOMHDAH, and Sprite Fighters!

These would be tiny Versions of the fighters, very very fast, small size, and so an increased defense due to small size and high speed. They would be Uber-fragile, have a very low payload.
Basically cheap and quick. These would work best in a Pseudo-Newtonian universe. I'd have to bump the movement ratio of all other fighters up to 2 engines per move, but then I could double the output of all the fighter engines (and sails and afterburners?) to compensate. Then the Sprite Fighter would have a ratio of 1 engine per move.

Ok, I'll admit that the only reason I want to make the nanotech tree is for the Sprite Fighters, but hopefully something else will come of my efforts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

iii) nanotech2 - more stuff, yet again ACOOTTASOMHDAH. Better sprite fighters, even smaller missile components to rival the point defense systems, yadda, yadda.

I hate doing work for my own edification, so if anyone thinks this would be worth persuing (i.e. you'd use them), please let me know.

[Edit - spelling errors]

[ 29 March 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Khamul

March 29th, 2002, 09:44 AM

I'm new and I have been trying to install the p&n v3.0 for gold. I have been problems and was wondering if any of you could please help?

I have the full gold Version, and I successfully installed the tdm modpack.

When I install p&n 3.0 from either the download page or the cd, I first unzip into the main SEIV folder. Then I change the path. When I then go to start a new game there are no empires present. I copied, in various combinations, the original emp files and the tdm emp files into p&n's empires folder but SEIV gave me "unable to open".

Also when I tried to use the AI Patcher, using the directions posted here 2/11/02, I open the AI folder then either the aggressive, defensive or neutral folder. That gives me the found general AI message put when I then click patch this AI to 3.0 I get failed:ai_designcreation.txt not found.

What in the heck have I managed to screw up here?
I have looked at the download web page for P&N but I can't find any installation instructions.

Phoenix-D

March 29th, 2002, 09:52 AM

" I copied, in various combinations, the original emp files and the tdm emp files into p&n's empires folder but SEIV gave me "unable to open"."

Can't do that. Any mod that adds additional racial traits, like P&N, makes the .emp files incompatable. Stick with random generation and make your own races, or use the AI patcher on the race in question.

You could also random generate and then go into the players menu, un-AI those players, and save their EMP files.

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

March 29th, 2002, 05:12 PM

From really deep in this thread:

To get "add existing race" AIs
1) Start a game with lots of random AIs, plus yourself.
2) On turn 1, go into the file menu (looks like a checklist),
and choose "players"
3) Uncheck all of the players (IE. make 'em human controlled)
4) As each player's turn starts, open the file menu, and
choose "Same Empire"
5) Give each AI empire a recognizable name, such as "Phong
2000 RP" (RP=racial Points)
6) Repeat steps 4-5 for every player except your own.
7) Repeat steps 1-7 until you have lots of EMP files built up.

=========================
Jimbobs back!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Ok, I'll admit that the only reason I want to make the nanotech tree is for the Sprite Fighters, but hopefully something else will come of my efforts<hr></blockquote>If that is the case, you could call the trait something along the lines of: "Space-Hardened Grunts"
That would get what you want, and keep the side effects down.
You get infantry in space/sprite fighters (not sure if I've got the right image, but you could use what amounts to a rocket seat and a roll cage, plus the hand weapon of your choice.

The other advantage that would be linked to this trait would be that all of your ship hulls need no lifesupport and/or crew quarters.

=====================

Not to be a wet blanket, but a true nanotech tree would have to be extensive and expensive, since it would impact all areas of society from entertainment to construction to pure research.

An "advanced miniaturization" trait would at least be limited to component mounts, copied facilities, and some new tiny vehicle sizes.
Until the patch which makes mounts require tech, even this would be infeasible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .

[ 29 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Khamul

March 31st, 2002, 07:31 AM

Thanks for the help. Finally got a chance to play around with it. Excellent work.

Suicide Junkie

March 31st, 2002, 07:52 AM

You're welcome.

PS:
I just noticed you were having trouble with the AI patcher:
What you need to do is patch the races that are in /pictures/races/race_xyz.
Patching the default AI bits, as it sounded like you were doing, can't hurt.

Just be sure you're patching a copy of the AIs, inside the P&N modfolder, or you will be messing up your original data files.

jimbob

April 1st, 2002, 09:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I have finally finished the major coding for v2.6 PBW. As well, I've done some preliminary testing this weekend, and cleaned out the obvious problems.<hr></blockquote>

Hi, i've hit a snag,
I downloaded v2.6 & plopped it in my p&n (v?.?) folder from way back. I ran the mod, and got a really whacky set up on my home planet - 1st time I ran it, I got no resupply depot, and no option to build one. 2nd time I ran it, the only facility on the home planet was a trade-port thingy.
Is this a problem with how I dropped the new Version in the old directory (replaced ALL the files though!)? Just did it so that Mod Chooser would do it's job. Or is it a problem with the Version?
Thx

P.S. And by-the-by, which file do you need to tweak to change the homeworld facilities at the start of a game?

Fyron

April 1st, 2002, 09:21 PM

Did you choose one of the basic racial traits? Ie: Normal, Pirate or Nomad

jimbob

April 1st, 2002, 09:39 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

(oh crap)

thanks IF

Fyron

April 1st, 2002, 09:47 PM

Enough smileys?

No problem, glad I could help!

Atrocities

April 3rd, 2002, 10:43 AM

Whats the latest news on this mod? Any new developments or add ons to report???

jimbob

April 4th, 2002, 08:23 PM

Yeah, I did indeed make the little mistake of not selecting "normal" so got nadda for facilities at the start of the game <shame, such overwhelming shame>

However, I still didn't get a resupply base, nor could I build one...

SJ:
I had a look through the facilities file and found that there was a typo. Resupply base construction was written to require level "1000" which actually works when edited to "1".

Oh, and I tried a few rounds of the game, very difficult (but realistic) with the proportions-like colony development. I'm really looking forward to getting into this Version, Thx SJ.

Suicide Junkie

April 4th, 2002, 09:42 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Actually, that was intentional.
You are supposed to actually produce supplies just like other resources such as organics and minerals. There are no free supplies anymore.

One of the first things you will need to build is a solar power station to use as a resupply depot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PS: Are you going to join the PBW test game?

jimbob

April 6th, 2002, 02:05 AM

No free resources, great idea, I just didn't realize. I'll switch my copy back to "1000" and give it a whirl.

RE: joining, yeah, I just finished marking a three inch pile of lab reports, so I've got some free time again. Yeah, I'm free!!!

I'll go to PBW tonight (PWB, whatever) and join.

jimbob

April 23rd, 2002, 01:25 AM

Otay,
I've played some of the new Version (2.6), and found just a few things.

1) many of the mini-images of components are missing. Do I need a file that is for some reason or another missing? Perhaps I need the 'Image Collection' for this Version?

2) fighters level 1 gives me small and large fighters. Shouldn't this be just small?

3) some races seem to not have chosen one of the three 'styles' of play - pirate, nomad, normal. Only have space port on their homeworld(s).

It's a great mod though. I'll keep messing around with it at home. Looking forward to the PBW game (hint hint)

Suicide Junkie

April 23rd, 2002, 05:40 PM

1) Yes. The Imagemod. Componentpack and combat pack are required.

2) Are you a Nomadic race? If so this is normal, otherwise somethings wrong.

3) Have you run the AI Patcher on any of AIs that didn't come with the mod?

jimbob

April 25th, 2002, 01:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr> 1) Yes. The Imagemod. Componentpack and combat pack are required.<hr></blockquote>

Ok

<blockquote>quote:<hr> 2) Are you a Nomadic race? If so this is normal, otherwise somethings wrong.<hr></blockquote>

I was/am playing a normal race. Go figure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> 3) Have you run the AI Patcher on any of AIs that didn't come with the mod?<hr></blockquote>

Just using the out-of-the-box races. Your mod comes with the updates for these races, yes?

Thanks
jimbob

Jmenschenfresser

April 25th, 2002, 01:50 AM

Is there anywhere other than your site SJ where I can find the patcher?

Site seems to be down...and I don't see it on the CD.

Thanks

jimbob

April 25th, 2002, 02:10 AM

Oh crappy, that's a big file (components). It'll take me some work to get that home (now who in the department forgot to lock their door and has a CD burner on their computer?..)

What about putting the facilities and planets imagemod files into the game? If I do this, will I mess things up on the PBW side??

Oh, and SJ, do we have an ETA on the start of the game? I'm chompin' at the bit to play (though I admit I've never done the PBW thing, so I'll probably get destroyed right quick!).

Phoenix-D

April 25th, 2002, 02:30 AM

"What about putting the facilities and planets imagemod files into the game? If I do this, will I mess things up on the PBW side??"

No, you won't. The imagemod is designed to be backward compatable with normal SE4.

Actually, you can do anything you like to the images without affecting multiplayer, but the imagemod doesn't affect standard SE4 images *at all*.

Phoenix-D

dogscoff

April 25th, 2002, 12:45 PM

[quote]
Oh crappy, that's a big file (components). It'll take me some work to get that home (now who in the department forgot to lock their door and has a CD burner on their computer?..)
[/quote[

Well... you could download it at the office, unzip it, work out which images you actually need and just take those home.

Suicide Junkie

April 26th, 2002, 01:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Is there anywhere other than your site SJ where I can find the patcher?
Site seems to be down...and I don't see it on the CD.<hr></blockquote>There are quite a few mirrors of it.
See: Imagemod Page (http://www.geocities.com/hohoho611ca/imagepack.html), which currently shows three other "Online" and an unknown. My mirror is back up now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Oh, and SJ, do we have an ETA on the start of the game? I'm chompin' at the bit to play (though I admit I've never done the PBW thing, so I'll probably get destroyed right quick!).<hr></blockquote>I should have time to package up the mod, and start the game this weekend. You shouldn't worry about being destroyed too much, since this is a testing game. Arrange fights beforehand with the other player, and all ... I did mention that in the forum.

jimbob

April 27th, 2002, 04:56 AM

Suicide,

I guess we'll only have about 4 people and no computer players playing/testing the game. Is it okay if I play several different races then? I'd like to give the pirates a run, but I'm afraid there won't be enough fodder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It's just that the 4 of us aren't likely to play many of the facets of the game. I'd be happy (and should have the time) to play maybe 3 or 4 races. I promise to roll-play well and play them as arch-enemies.

If this is okay, I'll go over to PBW and register as Yimbob1, 2, 3.

Suicide Junkie

April 27th, 2002, 05:27 AM

If you can handle that many, I see no reason why not. I'll increase the playerlimit a bit.

dumbluck

April 29th, 2002, 09:32 AM

Just a quick question. Is the Gold CD Version still the latest? I'm (finally) getting around to installing the gold Version, but I didn't know if there was a >3.0 Version out yet. (And I'm too lazy to search through this thread to find out...)

Suicide Junkie

April 30th, 2002, 03:19 PM

The CD Version is not the latest, but it is the most recent Gold Version...

I have v2.6 in testing, and will Goldify it to get v3.1

dumbluck

May 1st, 2002, 01:36 AM

budda *bump*

dumbluck

May 1st, 2002, 02:23 PM

Ok. Thanx.

jimbob

May 7th, 2002, 02:04 AM

SJ:

Okay, I eliminated the normal movement for the tiny fighters, they're only going to move by afterburners now, but with a good maximum velocity.

I totally didn't see the "Launch from ship/Launch from planet" variables at the bottom (vehicle types)!!! So all the mini-fighters are now unable to launch from ship. That was what I was looking for originally!

So, now the ships will be posted, give me a sec.

jimbob

May 7th, 2002, 02:25 AM

Posted in the downloads area,

If I knew anything about anything, I'd have linked you to them... but I don't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers,
jimbob

Suicide Junkie

May 7th, 2002, 11:49 PM

Cool.

Links are:
[ url=www.website.com]Text for link[/url]

I find it easiest to copy-paste from the address/location bar in my browser, rather than type out a long address.

There is also the "Instant UBB Code" buttons just below the add reply button when posting. The first option is "URL" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

jimbob

May 10th, 2002, 12:19 AM

SJ,

Are the droids worth adding? I've play tested them, and they seem balanced enough. Do they add to the P&N universe (admittedly they're rather Star Warsy)?

Also, was the change in technology tree (RE: miniaturization branch and miniaturized weaponry) acceptable?

TerranC

May 10th, 2002, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by jimbob:
SJ,

Are the droids worth adding? (admittedly they're rather Star Warsy)?

I think SJ should add them; we are already using a type of droid: the Canadarm!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

jimbob

May 10th, 2002, 12:36 AM

TerranC

Oh stop, you're making me all teary eyed and patriotic...

[singing to the tune of God Save the Queen]
Our country reeks of trees
Our Yaks are really large
And they smell of rotting beef carcasses

And we have to clean up after them
And it's our great reward
Our saddle sores are the best...
And I can't remember the next line.

Suicide Junkie

May 10th, 2002, 02:30 AM

They really don't seem to be P&N-ish. At least with the StarWars aura. For sure, the Droid Versions should be listed in the standard SE4 roman numerals format, and have a different name.

Damage Control System would be good...
That would explain the extra hitpoints.
The extra speed would be because the drives can be run closer to or beyond their specs: the DCS can closely monitor them for imminent failure, and replace worn parts.
If the DCS handles organics as well, and will keep the fighter pumped full of coffee when he needs it, that explains the attack bonus:)

jimbob

May 28th, 2002, 01:18 AM

RE: Droids/R2D2 components... OK, sure. Maybe call them droids for now, and let the the Sci-Fi crossover guys worry about re-naming them later (that is, if they even use them)?

RE: P&N 2.6 beta... I don't know if it's really a bug or anything, more a play balance issue. I was testing several races, one of them with gravity manipulation. The G-spike engines seem really expensive, and I think will give me less propulsion per kT! They gave a slight edge in terms of distance travelled because of a lower supplies used value. At first glance they just seem a little too expensive to have a lower thrust ratio and only a slight gain in efficiency (In My Slightly Confused and Over-Caffienated Opinion).

[ May 28, 2002, 00:19: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Suicide Junkie

May 28th, 2002, 01:59 AM

I'm not sure what you're looking at but I have:

Ion Drive
10 size
3 mp
160 rads

Grav 1:
10 size
4 mp
400 rads

Quantum:
10 size
6 mp
500 rads

Grav 4:
10 size
7 mp
750 rads

The Grav drives give +1 thrust, and increased rads cost.

If you factor in the fact that you will need less engines to move the same speed, the rad costs are not as bad:
Grav 1:
400 * (3/4) = 300 = 188% rads cost.
Grav 4:
750 * (6/7) = 642 = 128% rads cost.
And you get a decent 25% to 14% reduction in the size of your engine room as a bonus.

[ May 28, 2002, 01:06: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

jimbob

May 31st, 2002, 07:04 AM

Yeah, so I guess I'm actually on crack then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Sorry SJ, I must have read it wrong or something (though I can't imagine what that other possibility would be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif ).

Suicide Junkie

August 21st, 2002, 09:32 AM

Behold! A new Version of Pirates & Nomads arises from the deep, dragging with it this ancient thread from the beginning of time!

Pirates&Nomadsv3.1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1029914265.zip)!
This is for GOLD v1.78 or higher.

If you find any bugs, please report them. I can't fix what I don't know is broken, but anything broken can be fixed quickly

Pirates&Nomads V3.1:
Quick List: Pirates, Nomads and Normals - Pirates and Nomads are intended for single player vs AIs, but can be successful if played carefully as a supporting race (arms dealer, etc) in a multiplayer game. New racial traits - Try them out in single player before you play. Maintenance reduction - Big change, +10% reduction = 90% of normal costs Quality Mounts - When using armor, be sure to pay extra and recieve the "Premium" armor plating. In matters of life and death, every little bit helps. For non-military ships, such as population transports, "budget" mounts may be appropriate to reduce costs. Weapons - Some balancing, New additions, Phased weapons heavily altered Defenses - Phased shields are mixed in with normal shields, Armor can be as strong as shields, though harder to repair. Special defenses to stop "only weapons" and other special damage types. Quasi-Newtonian Propulsion - Big ships need Big engines, or they go slow. Simple as that. Except instead of bigger, you just use lots of little ones for now. Battlemoons - The ultimate vehicle size, these are limited to 1MP on the map, and carry 10,000 KT of equipment. The default picture is from the "planets" directory. Unit Mounts - Units use mounted Versions of your standard ship weapons. Just research Troop weapons or smaller weapons to get the mounts. Resources - The build costs of all objects are roughly balanced. Since homeworlds start with about 10 mineral miners and only one farm and one radioactives extractor, you will need to supplement orgs and rads production quickly. Scrapping a homeworld's miner for a farm or rads extractor is usually a good idea. Stellar Manipulation - All SM techs are vastly increased in size. Some of the major components can only be mounted on a Baseship or even a Battlemoon.

Full List:

Racial Traits: Pirates, Nomads, and Normals
 Selecting Zero will prevent you from building anything of value. Selecting more than one will be cheating unless the game specifically is set up with this in mind. Players with more than one trait will be obvious upon first contact: Click Report, and the Race tab to see their trait choices.
 There is a sixth major racial trait: Advanced Gravitic Manipulation. This trait mainly gives advanced propulsion technology, faster missiles, and advanced gravity weapons (including a Point-Defense Repulsor beam) All of the 6 main racial Technology Traits (Psychic, Organic, Temporal, Crystalline, Religious, and Gravitic Manipulation) have crossover techs. Most of the listed components are half of normal size, the lifesupport provides 1 repair per turn instead. Tiny Race - All C&C components (bridge/Lifesupport/Crewquarters) are 70% of normal size. Expanded Automation - All ships require one fewer Lifesupport and CrewQuarters compared to normal vessels Pack Rats - Crew Quarters add to your cargo capacity Think Big - All units are 25% bigger than normal
Racial Penalties Naturalists - Planets store only 60% of normal cargo, population and facilities. Cost: -3000 Racial points. Endemic Wastefulness - Supply Usage by all vehicles is doubled. Cost: -2000 Racial points
Racial Characteristics: This is mainly the same as normal, so that AIs will still work. Most areas have expanded limits, so you can go higher or lower than normal. Environmental Resisitance is locked at 100% Since this has exactly the same effect as Reproduction, it has been removed from play. Reproduction reduction - A significant bonus is given to players who take very low reproduction rates. Reducing yourself to a ZERO-reproduction race will net you 1600 racial points to spend elsewhere. Farming and Refining skills are important in P&N due to balanced component costs, so don't neglect them. Maintenance Aptitude has been fixed from normal SE4. The base maintenance rate is 25% of the ship's cost per month. In most mods, and unmodded SE4, taking 10% to maintenance reduction leaves you paying 25-10= 15% of the ship's cost per month. In P&N, 10% maintenance reduction leaves you with 25 - (10% of 25) = 22.5% of the ship's cost per month. The limit for maintenance reduction has been increased to 50%.
Weapons and Defenses: Weapons have been altered from normal SE4 to improve balance. Some major examples are below. Troops and Fighters no longer have their own special weapons. Instead, they have "Micro", "Mini", and "Small" mounts for ship sized weapons. Yes, you can put a wave motion gun on a fighter, if you can find the space for it (WMGs on Large fighters are possible, but the fighter will be slow, and have no shielding). Antiproton beams have been weakened slightly. Missiles come in more flavours. There is a Heavy Bombardment missile that does quad damage to shields and has 4x the hitpoints (vs PD) of a normal missile and weighs twice as much. Wave Motion Guns are called "Helix Cannons" (you'll see why when they fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and have extended range to be more of an artillery weapon. HEM beams (crystalline tech) are similarily extended in range. Phased weapons are no longer just Polaron Beams. Phased Energy Weapons technology will modify your APBs, Torpedoes and Missiles to carry shield-skipping warheads. Ramming has a 200% modifier to the damage inflicted on both sides.
Defense options have been multiplied. From useful armor, to specialty weapon defeaters, to shields. Troops and Fighters no longer have their own shield technologies. Instead "Small shield mounts" are used to add ship-class shields. Units of varying size get different shield strength out of the same shield generator. Normal shields and Phased shields are developed simultaneously during shield research. The normal shields have more hitpoints per kt space than the phased. At the top levels of shield technology, "Heavy shield generators" are available (200kt, 2000+ shields generated). Beyond that, you can gain Planetary shield technology on your own. Aside from special-effects armor, the standard defensive plating comes in "ablative" and "plasma projection" varieties, each smaller, but stronger than the Last. Using a mount, armor hitpoints can be even higher than shields. However, the best armor comes in 1kt pieces, and trying to repair 200 broken armor components takes quite a while. BuckyTube Gel armor - Not quite armor, but more like "decoy internals" This stuff WILL be hit by null-space weapons, not 100%, but it does sap some of the weapon's strength. Tachyon Diffuser - is a high-hitpoint decoy weapon that will absorb some hits from weapon-destroying weapons. Not 100%, but it will absorb some hits. Armored engines, and shield-armor hybrid technology resist their respective "only x" weapons better than normal.

Movement and propulsion:
P&N uses a Quasi-Newtonian Propulsion system. Bigger ships need more engines, and burn more fuel while moving. The number of engines on any ship is unlimited. On the largest hulls, you may reach a hardcode limit. In v1.67 this would cause a Range Check Error which could be cleared, and allow you to remove the offending engine. In the latest patch it seems that SE4 will simply reduce your ship's speed to zero and start over. Again, remove the offending engine, and your ship will be at maximum speed. It requires one thrust point to move 50kt of ship 1 square per turn. Ion engines provide 3 thrust each, increasing with technology to quantum engines which provide 6 thrust each. Thus 3 ion engines on an escort will move it at speed 3, while 3 quantum engines on that escort will move it speed 6. On a destroyer (300kt) 3 quantum engines will move the ship at only speed 3. Because there is no limit on the number of engines for most ships, you can get ships that move upwards of 20 sectors per turn. However, the fastest ships will be unable to carry weapons or shields. A balance must be struck between engines, weapons and defenses, and exactly where that point is, is totally up to your empire.

Other: Resource producing facilities will store small amounts of resources as well as performing their main function. Quantum reactors are not available in Pirates & Nomads. Dedicated supply ships must be used instead. Supply tanks count as cargo components. Therefore, you may use Transport hulls as a fuel tanker. Ground combat only proceeds one turn per month. Since most ground combats Last at least 5 turns, and major battles can Last 20+ turns, Capturing planets will take time. This gives time for reinforcements to be added to both sides of the conflict, affording room for troop-vs-troop action, and allowing many smaller transports to fight against a large defending force together. "Quality Mounts" Regular, non-weapon components can be built using anything from a "budget" mount to a "Premium" mount. Budget components cost only 80% of normal, but have half the hitpoints. Premium components have 40% more hitpoints and twice the price. Armor should almost always be premium mounted. Planetary Core mount. Available for the Battlemoon, this tremendous mount multiplies the damage delivered by a weapon by 50 times! When viewing weapons that are core-mounted, the damage displayed will often be rounded to the nearest thousand points. Do not worry, the actual damage during combat is the full 50x the unmounted damage. Planetary shields. These require basic shield technology to use. As you research further in shields, you will recieve upgraded planetary shields, from 20k shield points to 50k shield points, to 75k PHASED shield points.

[ August 21, 2002, 17:28: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

dumbluck

August 21st, 2002, 10:35 AM

Oh so cool! So, is there a PBW Version? (humans only, I mean). So, are stock or modded AI's (ie TDM) still patchable? What about v3.0 games, are they upgradeable? Is the Image Mod now required?

Oh, yea, one more thing. Why doesn't your modinfo.txt include the history list for v3.1?

[ August 21, 2002, 09:51: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Pax

August 21st, 2002, 04:15 PM

Living Ships
... Most of the listed components are half of normal size
... Lifesupport provides 1 repair per turn.

Tiny Race
... All C&C components (bridge/Lifesupport/Crewquarters) are 70% of normal size.

Expanded Automation
... All ships require one fewer Lifesupport and CrewQuarters compared to normal vessels(liberties taken in above quote, for format and clarity)

One thing; I didn't notice any crossover components for Tiny Crew and Living Ships, testing the 1.49 Version of P&N. If you haven't provided one, or if the Tiny Crew doesn't simply produce a brige/crew/Lifesupport MOUNT which can be applied ... please do so.

Otherwise folks might end up wasting race-creation points picking both up, only to find they're incompatible ...

[ August 21, 2002, 15:16: Message edited by: Pax ]

Suicide Junkie

August 21st, 2002, 06:29 PM

Good point, Pax. If your ship is alive, and you're using neural tendrils instead of crew quarters, the size of your race dosen't matter.
EG: Attack dogs with a barking-triggered missile launcher don't usually have people riding them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, having a tiny race mount could be useful.
I didn't use a mount before because it simply wasn't possible. However, the way it is currently set up, "show only latest" will display the best combination of minor traits you have for each Category. It saves on clicking, and also makes the technology non-repairable.

Dumbluck:
I am working on the PBW Version now. My primary focus will be to rebuild the weapons tech, mines, and training facilities.
The imagemod combatpack is included, but the componentpack is required as a separate download.

Note that the game will still run without the componentpack, but you will not be able to see or right-click on many of the components.

All gold AIs are still patchable, using the AIPatcher for v3.0

Savegames and EMP files are not compatible with earlier Versions, sorry.
I have added "expansion slot" racial traits, so that future Versions that add racial traits have a better chance of being compatible.

The reason why the history file dosen't include an entry for 3.1 is because I forgot to save my typing to disk before zipping and uploading the file http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I didn't really keep track to much of the changes, either I just went ahead and did stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
P&N V3.1
- Goldified v2.6 beta, and added v3.0 parts where AI required it.
- Changed all unit weapons and shields to be mounted Versions of ship weapons & shields
- Increased cost of mine warheads. No more building 50 per turn.
- probably more...I will have to go through the datafiles line-by-line and complile a real list of changes one of these days.

PS: sneak peak at my PBW Version to-do list:
- Large mount drives
- Racial/Ruins Crossover tech (maybe)
- Training facilities will cost big bucks and be components. The maintenance costs will rise proportional to (training max)^3 (yes, cubed).
- Racial armors will be 6kt (1/5th size) each, allowing them to be used on small ships.
- Redo all the weapons.
- redo mines & sweeping.
-New Racial trait: "Gun Nuts": -200kt to all ship-mount requirements. (Ie: Frigates can hold Large mounts)
- And, of course, add a funky population modifier curve, as in v2.5 PBW

[ August 21, 2002, 17:38: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

jimbob

August 21st, 2002, 08:59 PM

Very hip.

The amount of work you put into these mods is incredible! Out of curiosity, what are you thinking of doing in terms of the engine mounts?

Ed Kolis

August 21st, 2002, 10:25 PM

Wheeeee!!! A new Version of P&N! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Say, how did you go about "fixing" Maintenance aptitude? I may have to steal your idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dumbluck

August 21st, 2002, 11:21 PM

SJ: Did you make any changes to settings.txt? I really like your "funky pop bonus curve", and will have to cut and past it in if you made changes...

oleg

August 22nd, 2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Wheeeee!!! A new Version of P&N! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Say, how did you go about "fixing" Maintenance aptitude? I may have to steal your idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif The basic idea is to set maintenance cost at 100% in settings.txt file. Then, assign 75% reduction to all ship hulls (87.5% for bases). Now, basic maintenance is the same as in unmoded SEIV, but when you give race say, 10% bonus, It will pay 0.9X0.25 = 22.5% for ship maintenance.

Arkcon

August 22nd, 2002, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
The basic idea is to set maintenance cost at 100% in settings.txt file. Then, assign 75% reduction to all ship hulls (87.5% for bases). Now, basic maintenance is the same as in unmoded SEIV, but when you give race say, 10% bonus, It will pay 0.9X0.25 = 22.5% for ship maintenance.SJ, that is simply pure genius. What does MM think of your ability to make SE4 dance to whatever tune you whistle?

Ed Kolis

August 22nd, 2002, 07:23 PM

More comments...

Your Baseship doesn't use the Baseship picture, and Battlemoons don't use the Worldship picture.

What happened to the Gravitic cloak levels for all the ships? Only the pirate ships and singularity mines have them... or were those to be put in only in the PBW Version?

Forgot to change the description of Emissive Armor II/III's ability... it still says "blocks damage below a certain amount" not "reduces damage"

Your SFX are decidedly old... didn't update components.txt to use the new SFX!

Whoa! Gotta pay attention to your supply usage - Shard cannons use 50 SUPPLIES!!! ... more than a Crystalline Torpedo???

I think this is a bug... the Hollowpoint Gravity Spike doesn't require Grav racial trait! It's definitely superior to the regular old warp-point opener, but it has the same tech requirement!

Massive Ionic Disperser & massive shield depleter should do more damage, especially with QNP and lots-o-engines! 500 damage to engines will knock out 25 regular engines, or 16 2/3 reinforced mount engines, or 12 1/2 armored engines, or 8 1/3 armored, reinforced mount engines - and in P&N ships can have a lot more engines than that! (Now if only Solar Sails could be made immune to ionic dispersers...) And some large bases can reach over 1000 shields...

Rube Goldberg designs??? LOL!!! What tech uses that???

What happened to all the pop modifiers??? Was that just PBW? Waah... I like the pop modifiers!

dumbluck

August 24th, 2002, 09:11 AM

Maximum Number Of Systems := 255I thought that 255 spit out a RCE, I thought that 254 was the limit. Was I wrong??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

EDIT:
Rube Goldberg designs??? LOL!!! Am I missing something here? Was this supposed to be a joke?

[ August 24, 2002, 11:05: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

TerranC

August 24th, 2002, 05:45 PM

256 spits out a fowl RCE

solops

August 24th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Behold! A new Version of Pirates & Nomads arises from the deep, dragging with it this ancient thread from the beginning of time!

Pirates&Nomadsv3.1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1029914265.zip)!
This is for GOLD v1.78 or higher.

<Groan> This really ruins my day. There are so many wonderful Mods for this game and I have no time for them. It takes me forever to play a game. And now this....sigh...

Fyron

August 24th, 2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Rube Goldberg designs??? LOL!!! What tech uses that???None. That is there for "dud" ruins that don't do anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What happened to all the pop modifiers??? Was that just PBW? Waah... I like the pop modifiers!Yes, those are just for the PBW Version. They hurt the AI a lot.

Suicide Junkie

August 25th, 2002, 03:02 AM

Dumbluck:
I have made changes to settings.txt
However, if you only copy-and-paste the pop modifiers, it will still work.

Ed Kolis:
Thanks for the reports.

Vehicle images: Fixed
Gravitic Cloak: PBW Version only
EA Description: Fixed
SFX age: Working On It Now
Supply Usage: See note below.
HP Grav Spike: Zounds! Fixed now!
Massive Weapons: See below.

Supply Usage:
Supplies in P&N are now considered to be physical matter used by the device. Energy usage by a device will increase the rads cost of that device.
You do have a point about the shard cannon & crystalline torpedo. The shard cannon should certainly have a high supply cost, but the missile's should be higher.
Be wary of the bombardment missiles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In the PBW Version, especially, supplies will be a critical concern. Defense ships will be able to mount the powerful, supply sucking weapons, while attack ships will have to use the slightly-weaker energy weapons, or maintain long supply routes.
In this AI-friendly Version, the weapons still use only lightly-modded damage amounts.

Massive Weapons:
The damage does seem a bit wimpy now. However, one cannon can knock out 50 cheap mount engines (quite common, since engines are so expensive).
Once the engine disruptors come into play, the enemy might be forced to spend more money to protect their ships.
Rather than directly increasing the damage, I think I will simply make it an "Always Hits" weapon.
That will effectively improve the damage rate, and make them much more effective in combat...

For the massive shield depleter, an increase in damage is warranted. I shall go with double damage plus always hit.

PS:
As Fyron mentioned, the Rube Goldberg Designs are a joke tech in order to have dummy ruins that are indistinguishable from the real things.
He also nailed the pop modifier reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arkon:
I've never asked, and he's never commented http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jimbob:
Nothing special, really. Just adding some hefty 50 or 100 kt drives so that players don't have to click quite so much when designing ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A ruins tech for "Massive Engines" (400kt?) might be fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 08:53 AM

Ok, thanx for the reply. I noticed that it hurt the AI, myself. But it makes for fun games non the less. Raising the kt/million population has a somewhat similar effect...

But you took away my DUC Autocannons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Unless there is just a new research requirement I haven't discovered yet...

Fyron

August 25th, 2002, 09:03 AM

Maybe they became a mount for DUC weapons?

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 09:04 AM

Not that I've found. I'm thinking of starting my very first High Tech Start ever just to see...

Fyron

August 25th, 2002, 09:05 AM

Or search for them in components.txt, and the compenhancement.txt to see if they are a mount. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 09:15 AM

Ooooo, I forgot to look in componentsenhancement.txt.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 09:35 AM

Nope, not there neither.

EDIT: Well, I started my high tech start game, and sure enough, there are my DUC Autocannons! Now I just have to figure out what to research to get them...

2nd EDIT: the Find command in Word is a wonderful thing! Autocannons require Smaller Weapons and Projectile Weaps. I don't know how I missed it the first time (well, actually I do. I kinda, you know, forgot about the Find command, and I tried to search components.txt by hand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )

[ August 25, 2002, 11:51: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 12:23 PM

BUG: Multiplex tracking and Combat sensors use the same picture...

Edit: SJ, check your PMs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ August 25, 2002, 11:57: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

dumbluck

August 25th, 2002, 12:46 PM

WOO-HOO! 600 Posts!!!

I can remember a time when this thread was by far the longest. Then that damn Cantina got built next door, and Wham! Relegated to second fiddle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Suicide Junkie

August 25th, 2002, 10:06 PM

Pirates & Nomads V3.1b.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1030304238.zip)
The bugfixes suggested below, plus:
- Revamped sounds to use Gold standard ones.
- Upgraded all weapon animations to use full imagemod capabilities.
- +100% to massive weapon accuracy
- massive shield depleter strength doubled
- Graviton Hellbores skip armor, so they are not totally useless.

Edit: sig repair

[ August 25, 2002, 21:07: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Fyron

August 25th, 2002, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by dumbluck:
WOO-HOO! 600 Posts!!!

I can remember a time when this thread was by far the longest. Then that damn Cantina got built next door, and Wham! Relegated to second fiddle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif 3rd fiddle, actually. The B5 Mod thread is currently the longest thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dumbluck

August 26th, 2002, 09:33 AM

SJ: You really should clean out your Savegame folder before zipping your mod up for distribution... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Another BUG (I think): Both the destroyer and Colony ship sizes (300kt) get a defence bonus for size, but the Small Transport (300kt) does not. At least, I couldn't get the game to tell me that it did...

[ August 26, 2002, 09:57: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Suicide Junkie

August 26th, 2002, 06:00 PM

Ok, but that will mean I have to put a defense penalty on the medium & large transports http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

dumbluck

August 27th, 2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Ok, but that will mean I have to put a defense penalty on the medium & large transports http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I did say that I thought it was a bug. If it was a deliberate design decision, then of coarse it was definately NOT a bug! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't an oversight...

Ed Kolis

August 30th, 2002, 08:32 PM

Here's another bug... The description for the Planetoid Core Mount says 100x to damage, but it only gives 75x.

Sycless

September 17th, 2002, 08:11 AM

Is there a readme that descrbes everything that is in this mod? I keep getting confused, plus I never could get enough racial points to get every trait to try them out.

Rainstorm

September 17th, 2002, 08:38 AM

I love the mod so far, but I would love to see a readme as well. It's great for what changes have been made, but a sort of overall view of the idea of the mod and the concepts of the various race types would be a good thing.

Suicide Junkie

September 17th, 2002, 05:03 PM

Two pages back from this point is my first post about releasing the new Version. There is a hefty summary of the mod right below.

Phoenix-D

January 16th, 2003, 10:01 PM

David, can you please not bump old threads again?

It's a bit confusing and annoying, at least to me.

Phoenix-D

David E. Gervais

January 17th, 2003, 02:09 AM

..another *bump* for honorable mention in the 'Popular Threads' This one wasn't quite as far back as the 'Gryphin and Growltigga thread'!

Cheers!

Ed Kolis

January 17th, 2003, 04:28 AM

But this is such a cool thread... when will that Gold PBW Version of P&N ever be ready anyway?

geoschmo

January 17th, 2003, 04:59 AM

Do you all remember when this was THE thread around here. Back before the Cantina, before the thread with no name, before the B5 mod thread. This one is probably the oldest continually active thread out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

January 17th, 2003, 10:08 AM

That's cause SJ just doesn't stop rollin'! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And by the way, I do indeed remember when this was THE thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (I was only a mere lurker back then, but so what http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ January 17, 2003, 08:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ragnarok

January 17th, 2003, 04:51 PM

When I first started coming to this forum this thread was still alive. Wasn't extreamly active but it was still going.
I forget how far along the first Cantina was then. But I don't remember seeing the GT/Gryphin thread.

David E. Gervais

January 17th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
David, can you please not bump old threads again?

It's a bit confusing and annoying, at least to me.

Phoenix-DDid I do something wrong? I thought that a thread was only dead when it was 'closed' and no longer accepts new postings!

..I saw the thread had quite a bit of dust, but it wasn't dead, and calling it 'old',... well!

..besides, since there is talk of 'pirates' in StarFury, I think this thread should be revived!

Cheers!

dogscoff

January 17th, 2003, 06:15 PM

S_J - looking back through this page, I have to agree that some kind of readme or user guide would be handy - just some hints and tips on how to get started using pirate or nomad races, since these details aren't included on your feature list.

capnq

January 17th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Did I do something wrong? It's a fine point of netiquette, which people disagree on.

Bumping a thread without adding any content wastes the time of people who use the "New post in topic" flags to navigate the forums. This is more of a problem for people who don't have a broadband connection.

Suicide Junkie

January 22nd, 2003, 04:28 AM

Here's some content for you then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
P&N v3.1 PBW (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043201932.zip)!

I'll write up a decent description for the changes in the next week or so.
If you really want to know, check out the Horrible Doom thread... I've got a checklist of suggestions and things I wanted to do in there.

Ed Kolis

January 22nd, 2003, 11:54 PM

Weehee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

{joins "Horrible Doom"}

Comments...

How come the "Nutty" mounts don't require the Gun Nuts racial trait?

You do know that you don't have to make duplicate copies of every quality mount and small mount just for different unit types, don't you? Just list them separated by slashes or commas! (Heck, spaces would probably even work - it's one of the few places SE4 isn't anal about its data files!)

The "Buckytube Weave I-III" mounts have the same abbreviation... how about Bt1/Bt2/Bt3? Also, why does only the third one have shields generated at 100%? (The rest are at 0%!) Do the earlier ones negate the ability of shield generators, or is that mount not applicable to shield generators

Machine Shop I is still missing its roman numeral...

Training Facilities require Training Methods level ZERO??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif ... whoa, a million organics, those things must take CENTURIES to build, even longer than a facility! How about making them cheaper but giving them a negative maintenance reduction so they cost more in upkeep? Oh, and might I suggest making each level a separate component family so you don't have to turn off Only Latest to put on a lesser one, and so you don't automatically upgrade to the fanciest Version when you upgrade your design? I can think of many situations where you would not want to put the best one on a base - it might just be too expensive! 60 familiies might be a bit much, but I think it would be well worth it... Of course I could be wrong - if you don't want it don't research it - but it might be nice to have the tech available if necessary, and you might have several grades of training bases, some for the front and some for the homeworlds... Oh, and the Training Facility 3x should say "triple the normal rate" not "double", and what is the point of increasing 3% per turn up to 1%??? ... and the 3x are no more expensive than the 2x? I'd thought they'd be 100K min/rad!

I like how fancier standard-class master computers prevent fewer & fewer psychic scans - if they're so smart, why CAN'T the psychics detect them!

I don't think automated bridges should have the Boarding Defense attribute - WHAT command staff???

I don't think you need to give Crew Quarters the Boarding defense attribute either - don't they get that automatically?

Spirit crew quarters are only 5 kT? What, are they monks who live in spartan conditions?

Scavengers are better at combat than swashbucklers? Gee, somehow that doesn't seem right...

It would be nice to know exactly how much boarding defense your security stations provide, rather than "elite personnel" or somesuch... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Hunter killer drones take up ONE kiloton??? And they're almost as effective as boarding parties??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Solar Reactor I and that zero tech level requirement again...

Nomads who start with Solar Sails... Sounds about right! Kind of like "Treasure Planet" huh?

Solar Sail II has 60 kT structure while the others only have 6! (And why don't they have the Armor attribute? They are a very vulnerable part of the ship!)

Why do the large engines have "Generates 0 bonus movement" as their first ability? Would kind of distract the eye from the other abilities - QNP HAS no bonus movement anyway!

Ah, research weapon overloading weapons to get temporal cloaks! Interesting... or was that supposed to be a surprise? (I see they start on level 2 so you wouldn't notice unless you started down that path or looked at the data files... oh well by the time the game starts I'll forget probably! )

Uh, what is the point of multiple levels of buckytube gel plating if they don't get a better damage resistance/cost ratio?

Organic armor's solar supply generation should say "per month for each star in the system"

All right, did you actually take the idea of "make the Talisman huge but decrease its size with tech advancements" from me or did you think of it independently?

Why are active scanners so expensive, both in research and radioactives cost?

The Long Range Scanner I is still fairly useless... so is the Graviton Hellbore (why not give it a + to hit, if it creates a big gravity well...) Yeah, I know, I expect P&N to fix everything that's wrong with SE4

The DUC I for fighters/troops is missing...

Did you hear that a weapon can't have zeroes for its damage at close range and then have actual damage farther out or else it won't fire - the game hits a zero and thinks it's run out of range! How about changing the Graviton Flux Cannon to do 1 damage at close range...

PD cannons/lasers still don't have an ability highlighting their accuracy bonus...

Whoa, CSM's are cheap! Maybe they will be useful now - sure, my destroyer won't Last long against yours, but when I can build four times as many of them as you can... MUWUHAHAHA Of course with all those supplies you'll need this will REALLY give a rustic space-pioneer feel - yar, I've got this ship here, she's got four o'them missile bays, but boy howdy do we need to keep her fueled up or we can't fahr anything!

ION PULSE CANNONS! Woohoo! OK, it's nothing big, but I like how you borrowed from MOO2 - sure, you can't cause a warp core breach (those were fun ) but MOO2 just plain rocks

But it's still called "Planetary Napalm"? I know it's not literally napalm, but wouldn't "Thermonuclear Bomb" be a bit more accurate? Dropping napalm on a planet just doesn't quite cut it for sci-fi...

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )

Ooh... massive shield depleter has massive Accuracy bonus... looks like fun

Those ultra-recycler nodes... If you bump up your Maintenance Reduction, will you get a NEGATIVE maintenance cost???

I think you can remove the mount placeholders from Components.txt soon - I hear the latest beta patch reports the mounts as researched properly... what IS that Last generic "Mount Reports" for anyway?

Yay, robotoid factories are less effective so it's worthwhile to build mineral scanners and such! (Funny, I got that idea too... don't recall telling anybody )

Ooh, custom spaceyards! So you can build some that specialize in minerals, orgs, and rads! I likey! But why do they all cost the same?

System grav shields no longer stop ordinary star destroyers, just black hole/nebula creators?

"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?

yoink, spaceyards are expensive! so much for my strategy of building one on every planet!

Darn... you know, now that I've gone through everything, I wish I'd just waited till the game started so it would be new longer... oh well, I forgot most of this stuff already!

Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game interminably long without being destroyed?

The reported masses of Battlestations and Spacestations are off...

So far... way past cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif still I wish I'd waited

edit: stupid smiley count limit have to go back and edit out all the smileys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif <-- look it's a smiley http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Warning: PhD thesis precedes. Oh wait too late

Fyron

January 23rd, 2003, 06:37 AM

Ed, you're not the only one that can think of stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

January 23rd, 2003, 06:44 AM

Suicide Junkie

January 24th, 2003, 07:03 AM

How come the "Nutty" mounts don't require the Gun Nuts racial trait?
Fixed!

You do know that you don't have to make duplicate copies of every quality mount and small mount just for different unit types, don't you? Just list them separated by slashes or commas! (Heck, spaces would probably even work - it's one of the few places SE4 isn't anal about its data files!)
Actually, I did not know that. Having them already there, I shall leave them for now, but I shall certainly try it in the future!

The "Buckytube Weave I-III" mounts have the same abbreviation... how about Bt1/Bt2/Bt3? Also, why does only the third one have shields generated at 100%? (The rest are at 0%!) Do the earlier ones negate the ability of shield generators, or is that mount not applicable to shield generators
Fixed!

Machine Shop I is still missing its roman numeral...
Fixed!

Training Facilities require Training Methods level ZERO??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif ... whoa, a million organics, those things must take CENTURIES to build, even longer than a facility! How about making them cheaper but giving them a negative maintenance reduction so they cost more in upkeep? Oh, and might I suggest making each level a separate component family so you don't have to turn off Only Latest to put on a lesser one, and so you don't automatically upgrade to the fanciest Version when you upgrade your design? I can think of many situations where you would not want to put the best one on a base - it might just be too expensive! 60 familiies might be a bit much, but I think it would be well worth it... Of course I could be wrong - if you don't want it don't research it - but it might be nice to have the tech available if necessary, and you might have several grades of training bases, some for the front and some for the homeworlds... Oh, and the Training Facility 3x should say "triple the normal rate" not "double", and what is the point of increasing 3% per turn up to 1%??? ... and the 3x are no more expensive than the 2x? I'd thought they'd be 100K min/rad!
1) Yes, training methods is more of an "Improved Training methods" type tech.
2) Use retroseries, and you will be able to retro up at least one level per turn.
3) I placed them at the beginning, so you can turn off "only latest" and scroll through them easily, or turn on "only latest" and compact 'em down to one space.
4) Double->triple Fixed!
5) Since training facilities on the same object stack in a funny way, you could combine a 3%/1% with a 1%/20% to get 3%/20% (rate/max)
6) Just for you, I'll up the price http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I like how fancier standard-class master computers prevent fewer & fewer psychic scans - if they're so smart, why CAN'T the psychics detect them!
Yep! I was having a conflict between better CPU vs Better cloak, and the "only latest" effect, so I split it into two areas!

I don't think automated bridges should have the Boarding Defense attribute - WHAT command staff???
It is expanded automation, not complete http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
That means the command staff are the entire crew for ships smaller than Cruisers.

I don't think you need to give Crew Quarters the Boarding defense attribute either - don't they get that automatically?
That is for extra defense ability beyond the default, AND to add 2x defense to Psychic crews, AND also to make them vulnerable to mental shredders.

Spirit crew quarters are only 5 kT? What, are they monks who live in spartan conditions?
They are ghosts and spirits of the dead heroes! They spend most of their leisure time elsewhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Scavengers are better at combat than swashbucklers? Gee, somehow that doesn't seem right...
Well, the scavengers are more professional... I probably need to readjust the numbers, though.

It would be nice to know exactly how much boarding defense your security stations provide, rather than "elite personnel" or somesuch...
Ok, I can add some relative skill Ratings to the description.

Hunter killer drones take up ONE kiloton??? And they're almost as effective as boarding parties???
20kt of them do cost 4000 rads, but you are right that they are surprisingly effective, given their special abilities as well.
Research wise, they do require computers level 6.

Solar Reactor I and that zero tech level requirement again...
You need to be able to gather supplies from day 1, or your scouts would have to be scrapped and rebuilt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
That is intended.

Nomads who start with Solar Sails... Sounds about right! Kind of like "Treasure Planet" huh?
Yep! They start with +2 levels in fighter tech too.

Solar Sail II has 60 kT structure while the others only have 6! (And why don't they have the Armor attribute? They are a very vulnerable part of the ship!)
Well, I considered that, but sails would be huge, and firing torpedoes and antiproton beams at them would leave tiny rips and holes only. You would need to hit the anchor point(s) to do any real damage, which seems best modeled as an internal, just like weapon ports.

Why do the large engines have "Generates 0 bonus movement" as their first ability? Would kind of distract the eye from the other abilities - QNP HAS no bonus movement anyway!
Hrm. The first and Last ones were correct, so I never noticed! Thanks!

Ah, research weapon overloading weapons to get temporal cloaks! Interesting... or was that supposed to be a surprise? (I see they start on level 2 so you wouldn't notice unless you started down that path or looked at the data files... oh well by the time the game starts I'll forget probably! )
Its the whole tachyon thing. Perhaps I should rename things to make it clearer.

Uh, what is the point of multiple levels of buckytube gel plating if they don't get a better damage resistance/cost ratio?
I believe they have a better chance of absorbing hits as they get larger.
Considering the tech difference, you are right that a better cost effectiveness is in order.

Organic armor's solar supply generation should say "per month for each star in the system"
And the crossover tech variants too... Fixed!

All right, did you actually take the idea of "make the Talisman huge but decrease its size with tech advancements" from me or did you think of it independently?
I don't believe so. Plus, that is not the entire thing to it. You are not intended to use the talisman components so much, since there are talisman mounts available as well.
With the mount, you trade off the bonus damage of large mounts for the 100% accuracy.

Why are active scanners so expensive, both in research and radioactives cost?
Partly because they are blocked by scattering armor, which is a hefty component, and partly to reduce the number of scanning ships floating around.

The Long Range Scanner I is still fairly useless... so is the Graviton Hellbore (why not give it a + to hit, if it creates a big gravity well...) Yeah, I know, I expect P&N to fix everything that's wrong with SE4
Well, easy to fix the scanners. +1 range for everybody!
As for the hellbore, it already carries Armor Skipping damage.
Useful for scaring the enemy into using the lower hp/kt shields, rather than piles of 20 hitpoint A+ PPA.

The DUC I for fighters/troops is missing...
Yes, because the range on such a weapon would be zero as soon as you place it on a small mount.

Did you hear that a weapon can't have zeroes for its damage at close range and then have actual damage farther out or else it won't fire - the game hits a zero and thinks it's run out of range! How about changing the Graviton Flux Cannon to do 1 damage at close range...
Nope! And I have thrashed many a Battleship, and even battlemoon with instant death from extreme range, so I know it works!

PD cannons/lasers still don't have an ability highlighting their accuracy bonus...
Fixed!

Whoa, CSM's are cheap! Maybe they will be useful now - sure, my destroyer won't Last long against yours, but when I can build four times as many of them as you can... MUWUHAHAHA Of course with all those supplies you'll need this will REALLY give a rustic space-pioneer feel - yar, I've got this ship here, she's got four o'them missile bays, but boy howdy do we need to keep her fueled up or we can't fahr anything!
Yep! Probably best to keep them at home, sitting over a supply depot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Your attack fleets will likely be very different from your defense fleets!

ION PULSE CANNONS! Woohoo! OK, it's nothing big, but I like how you borrowed from MOO2 - sure, you can't cause a warp core breach (those were fun ) but MOO2 just plain rocks
Uhm, no, those are classic SE4 weapons... I may have tweaked the name to sound more realistic, but it is basically the same thing as unmodded.

But it's still called "Planetary Napalm"? I know it's not literally napalm, but wouldn't "Thermonuclear Bomb" be a bit more accurate? Dropping napalm on a planet just doesn't quite cut it for sci-fi...
It sounded OK to me as it was... I imagine some sort of plasma clusterbomb effect.

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )
No comment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ooh... massive shield depleter has massive Accuracy bonus... looks like fun
Yes, as they are so very massive, and being low-efficiency one-shot weapons, I felt they needed that advantage.

Those ultra-recycler nodes... If you bump up your Maintenance Reduction, will you get a NEGATIVE maintenance cost???
No. The components are carefully balanced such that you end up with exactly 1% maintenance.
DOH! Bases will be messed up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Must rebalance the details.

I think you can remove the mount placeholders from Components.txt soon - I hear the latest beta patch reports the mounts as researched properly... what IS that Last generic "Mount Reports" for anyway?
It would be there to keep the "only latest" mount report unchanged as mounts are researched.
Less reason to poke around in otherwise useless components.

Yay, robotoid factories are less effective so it's worthwhile to build mineral scanners and such! (Funny, I got that idea too... don't recall telling anybody )
That idea was all over the forum a while ago. Everybody wanted something to that effect.

Ooh, custom spaceyards! So you can build some that specialize in minerals, orgs, and rads! I likey! But why do they all cost the same?
Planning and building the facility costs the same. It is just an assembly building after all. Workers, cranes, conveyor belts, etc.

System grav shields no longer stop ordinary star destroyers, just black hole/nebula creators?

"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?
Nope! Added. This is similar in nature to the Proportions homeworld super city things, except much less so.

yoink, spaceyards are expensive! so much for my strategy of building one on every planet!
You still can if you have the time. You can also build up expansion projects to make the ones you do have run faster!

Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game interminably long without being destroyed?
Yes. The civilian transport is big enough to carry a spaceyard, too, so the Pirates can rebuild even after being beaten badly.

The reported masses of Battlestations and Spacestations are off...
Fixed!

Why are there 2 Versions of Mental Shredders, that do different types of damage, have the same names, same tech reqs, and same family numbers? Shouldn't they have different families and names?
Where?
I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
I don't see the problem you are referring to.

Fyron

January 24th, 2003, 10:38 AM

Why are there 2 Versions of Mental Shredders, that do different types of damage, have the same names, same tech reqs, and same family numbers? Shouldn't they have different families and names?
Where?
I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
I don't see the problem you are referring to.Didn't notice the vehicle requirements of them. Oops! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Krsqk

January 24th, 2003, 05:40 PM

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )
No comment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Nah, he's more into the Timex style of ship design--takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. See his P&N page for an example dreadnought design which took on 9 enemy dreads and won (albeit with months and months' worth of damage). Of course, any good player will change tactics from time to time, so there's really no telling what to expect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ed Kolis

January 24th, 2003, 10:14 PM

(sorry about the arrows in funny places, I edited this message in notepad so the margins are probably wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

>Well, easy to fix the scanners. +1 range for everybody!
I thought of that as a possibility, but noted that if LRS III got 6 range then you could park a ship with one in the middle of the system and scan the entire system, and thought you might not want that to happen, so I didn't mention it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

>Your attack fleets will likely be very different from your defense fleets!
This will make for a very fun strategic game... Sure you're attacking me with APB's, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be defending your planets with them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

>Uhm, no, those are classic SE4 weapons... I may have tweaked the name to >sound more realistic, but it is basically the same thing as unmodded.
Yeah, I know it does the same thing, I just like the new name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

>It would be there to keep the "only latest" mount report unchanged as mounts >are researched.
Have no idea what you're talking about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif what only latest mount report?

>>"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?
>Nope! Added. This is similar in nature to the Proportions homeworld super >city things, except much less so.
That might mean you'll have to twiddle with some of the intel ops and (if you gave them the Resusmart bombs - don't want Industrial Sabotage or Puppet Political Parties to take one of those out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif (PvK are you listening?)

>>Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game >>interminably long without being destroyed?
>Yes. The civilian transport is big enough to carry a spaceyard, too, so the >Pirates can rebuild even after being beaten badly.
Doesn't sound quite fair - I know Pirates are at a disadvantage, but giving them basically a permanently cloaked ship that can build other ships is essentially making it impossible for them to lose! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

>I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
>I don't see the problem you are referring to.
Oh, must not have seen the can be mounted on field... always easy to miss one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

January 24th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Have no idea what you're talking about what only latest mount report?When viewing components using the "latest only"
That one spot will not change, eliminating an unnessesary distraction to shipbuilders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

That might mean you'll have to twiddle with some of the intel ops and (if you gave them the Resusmart bombs - don't want Industrial Sabotage or Puppet Political Parties to take one of those out! (PvK are you listening?)No, nothing so big.
These facilities are just barely better than the default facilities, and turn out to be relatively unimportant in the long run.

Doesn't sound quite fair - I know Pirates are at a disadvantage, but giving them basically a permanently cloaked ship that can build other ships is essentially making it impossible for them to lose!Hey, since its almost impossible for them to win, that seems only fair http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I thought of that as a possibility, but noted that if LRS III got 6 range then you could park a ship with one in the middle of the system and scan the entire system, and thought you might not want that to happen, so I didn't mention it I don't see the problem there. Now you can scan the entire system from one square off center! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 24, 2003, 21:34: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

dumbluck

January 27th, 2003, 06:02 PM

So... where can I get the current PBW Version? I really ought to look at the mod a bit if'n we're going to start Horrible Doom up sometime soon...

Krsqk

January 27th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Click this link (http://www.geocities.com/hohoho611ca/index.html#nomads) for the latest downloads. I think there will be a patch coming out soon to fix the problems discovered below.

Suicide Junkie

January 27th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Or here:
P&N v3.1 PBW (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043201932.zip)!

Krsqk

January 28th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Is that the fixed v3.1?

Suicide Junkie

January 28th, 2003, 12:30 AM

That is the same one as posted below. I have a few more suggestions to implement before I upload, and I'll do that after I'm done my homework tonight.

Ed Kolis

January 28th, 2003, 01:10 AM

Bad SJ! Putting homework in front of SE4! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

atari_eric

January 29th, 2003, 09:34 AM

hey SJ, are you going to backfit the new goodies from the PBW Version into the non-PBW Version, where applicable?

Suicide Junkie

January 30th, 2003, 07:14 AM

New Version, with many of those suggestions!
Pirates & Nomads V3.1B - PBW (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043903425.zip)

hey SJ, are you going to backfit the new goodies from the PBW Version into the non-PBW Version, where applicable? Most of the new goodies are AI busters, since that was the reason for making this the PBW Version.

A few things may filter back, such as the warstation, but most of these changes would ruin the AI no matter what.

Ed Kolis

January 30th, 2003, 11:13 PM

Hmm, as I created my .emp file for Horrible Doom (hey aren't you going to join, SJ?), I noticed that the Xenophobes culture type is still as useless as ever, providing only the same benefits as Schemers but with some penalties tacked on as well... Maybe if Schemers had penalties (perhaps to production, since they spend all their time scheming) or Xenophobes had advantages (production or research, since they are such a cohesive society... or just make them the anti-Renegades...)

jimbob

January 31st, 2003, 01:33 AM

SJ: PM

Ed Kolis

January 31st, 2003, 04:02 AM

...I just noticed today that this thread was not actually started by Suicide Junkie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Suicide Junkie

January 31st, 2003, 04:47 PM

I will take a look at the cultures, and see what I can do.

javaslinger

January 31st, 2003, 07:08 PM

Is the P&N mod up to date for 1.84?

Is it playable in single player?

Thanks,

Ken

Fyron

January 31st, 2003, 09:51 PM

Mods that worked in 1.78 will work in 1.84. They do not need to be updated for 1.84.

The PBW Versions of P&N are not playable single player. The Versions that are not entitled PBW are playable single player.

[ January 31, 2003, 19:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Suicide Junkie

January 31st, 2003, 11:48 PM

I noticed that the Xenophobes culture type is still as useless as ever, providing only the same benefits as Schemers but with some penalties tacked on as well... Maybe if Schemers had penalties (perhaps to production, since they spend all their time scheming) or Xenophobes had advantages (production or research, since they are such a cohesive society... or just make them the anti-Renegades...)So far, I'm thinking:
Xenophobes: +15 intel, -5 (maybe lower) trade -5 happy
Schemers: +15 intel, +4 trade, +2 SC, +1GC, -5 SY, -5 Research, -1 production. (Sneaky in more than just intel, but can't trust each other for stuff)
Workers: +5 production, -3 research and intel, +5 SY, +10 repair (SY and repair are "work" right?)
Artisans: +5 trade, +10 happy (Pretty things sell better right?)
Scientists: +10 research

PS:
Thanks to Matryx, the psychic scanner facilities now decrease in cost for the higher tech levels (as in the unmodded game) since they bring no new abilities with tech level.
Also, the Supply tanks' tech requirements have been fixed. There are now large and huge tanks which require levels in cargo tech.
The Hawking reactor has been balanced and included as well, for half a million supply points in one component http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 31, 2003, 22:53: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

dumbluck

February 2nd, 2003, 12:43 PM

SJ: Are these changes in the current Version on your website?

Ed Kolis

February 3rd, 2003, 12:29 AM

Say, you have those Tachyon Disperser thingies that deflect Tachyon Pulse shield-destroying shots... how about Ion Shunts to deflect engine destroyers, and similar things for the other damages-only-this-component weapons? Or would Ion Shunts make ion guns too useless now that they don't penetrate shields?

And with the psychic long range scanner facilities - it's nice to have them decrease in cost (never noticed they didn't before!) but that still doesn't help the Upgrade Facilities function... it will waste resources upgrading to a cheaper facility when you don't have any maintenance cost to save... why not just remove levels 2 and 3 of that tech, or give them special abilities... let's see, did I do that, maybe I can come up with some abilities... ah yes, here we go...

Name := Psychic Scanner I
Description := Psychic scanner which can perform a detailed scan of any enemy ship within the system.
Facility Group := Psychic
Facility Family := 50
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 42
Cost Minerals := 5000
Cost Organics := 15000
Cost Radioactives := 15000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Psychic Long Range Scanners
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Long Range Scanner - System
Ability 1 Descr := Any ship within the system can be scanned in detail.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Psychic Scanner II
Description := Psychic scanner which can perform a detailed scan of any enemy ship within the system. Can also detect possible hazards, allowing them to be prevented.
Facility Group := Psychic
Facility Family := 50
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 42
Cost Minerals := 4000
Cost Organics := 12000
Cost Radioactives := 12000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Psychic Long Range Scanners
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Long Range Scanner - System
Ability 1 Descr := Any ship within the system can be scanned in detail.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 2 Descr := Decreases the chance of any bad events in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 2 Val 1 := -10
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Change Bad Intelligence Chance - System
Ability 3 Descr := Decreases the chance of any sabotage activities in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 3 Val 1 := -10
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Psychic Scanner III
Description := Psychic scanner which can perform a highly detailed scan of any enemy ship within the system. These scans are precise enough to pinpoint weak spots in the enemy's armor, increasing the damage of our weapons in the system. Can also detect possible hazards, allowing them to be prevented.
Facility Group := Psychic
Facility Family := 50
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 42
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 10000
Cost Radioactives := 10000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Psychic Long Range Scanners
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Long Range Scanner - System
Ability 1 Descr := Any ship within the system can be scanned in detail.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 2 Descr := Decreases the chance of any bad events in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 2 Val 1 := -10
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Change Bad Intelligence Chance - System
Ability 3 Descr := Decreases the chance of any sabotage activities in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 3 Val 1 := -10
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Damage Modifier - System
Ability 4 Descr := Gives a 15% damage bonus to all of our weapons used in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 4 Val 1 := 15
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0

The justification for the first two new abilities being that the scanner detects events and saboteurs, allowing them to be prevented, and the third is that it can act sort of like uber targeting sensors that target weak spots on the enemy hull - think Achilles Targeting Unit in MOO2 which doubles all damage that penetrates the shields! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

jimbob

February 5th, 2003, 06:35 PM

Hey SJ:

You know how people often go and make up their race for a game, and everythings all ready to go, they start the game and surprise! they forgot to choose one of normal/pirate/nomad (I do this with disturbing regularity). I think it might be better if the three Economic Types were up at the top of the list on the Advanced Traits screen. I played around with the file and found that you can have them in any order, with apparently no affect on race creation. Would you be willing to change/cut and paste this for the next Version?

[ February 05, 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Krsqk

February 5th, 2003, 07:34 PM

Changing the order of advanced traits makes current EMP files obsolete.

Suicide Junkie

February 5th, 2003, 08:26 PM

DL:
No, I was waiting for some feedback.

EK:
There are armored engines available (as well as premium mounts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) which will help keep your engines safe.
The Heavy Shield Generators (or premium mounts) will also provide excellent protection from shield disruptors.
A Heavy Shield Generator is immune to pretty much anything short of a Massive Mount Disruptor-V at point blank range.

JB / Krsqk:
That is a good point. I usually pick out the economic type first, and then go back and fill in charateristics and traits.
Changing the order is feasible; 5000 point EMP files would be unusable, though.
I wonder how many EMPs would be affected, and how much work would it be to replace them?

Pax

February 5th, 2003, 08:29 PM

Still, it's a good idea/suggestion for, say, P&N 4.0 ... heh.

jimbob

February 5th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Krsqk said:
Changing the order of advanced traits makes current EMP files obsolete.

I had a quick look at the .emp files... bunch of gobbledygook under Word - how does one check them? Only through the set up screen? Regardless of me understanding them, what difference does it make/how do the .emp files read that list?

SJ said:
Changing the order is feasible; 5000 point EMP files would be unusable, though.
I wonder how many EMPs would be affected, and how much work would it be to replace them?

Why would the 5000RP .emp file be unusable? Even though it would be some work to re-order, it would probably be worth it for clairity's sake (of course, having said that I now consider the fact that I've NO idea how much work would be involved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

-jimbob

Sorry guys, I've just no idea how the .emp work

Suicide Junkie

February 5th, 2003, 10:47 PM

Well, the racial traits will all switch positions, and the checkmark that used to be on a (free) Lifestyle Trait will be on something more expensive. SE4 will not let you load the EMP to edit it, claiming it has spent more points than are allowed.

jimbob

February 6th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Ok, so then what one would need to do is the following:

i) change the order of the Adv. Racial Traits to whatever order is wanted

ii) reduce the costs of all Adv. Racial Traits by knocking off the Last zero (ie 1500 --> 150) so that you won't get the errors. Maybe this will need to be knocked down to zero to be sure.

iii) open EMP files one at a time and re-allot the Adv. Racial Traits. (This will leave us with a large +ve excess of RP for the time being). Repeat until all are re-alloted. How does one do this for the neutral races?

iv) bring the RP costs back up to their normal cost in the file.

Yeah, that does seem like a chunk of effort, but boy would it ever be pretty! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-jimbob

Pax

February 7th, 2003, 08:00 AM

Bug in v3.1b for PBW: Colony and Small Transport hulls are getting access to the Gun Nuts' "Large Nutty Mount", even for races who don't have the Gun Nuts trait.

Not a critical, game-breaking issue, but something odd is going on, maybe SJ should take a look ... if he isn't already. 8)

Pax

February 7th, 2003, 08:39 AM

Nevermind, I just figured out what was happening myself.

SJ, you silly goose, you forgot to specify the Tech Requirement for the Nutty mounts! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh well. I've corrected my local copy, and uploaded that corrected file to the PBW server ( http://seiv.pbw.cc/Download/filelib/706/GunNutsFix.zip ) in case anyone needs it.

David E. Gervais

February 7th, 2003, 01:40 PM

Pax, you silly goof.. have you ever stopped by my avatar forum? I deposited something there that I think you might like!

Cheers!

Suicide Junkie

February 7th, 2003, 04:26 PM

Hey, Pax, you just uploaded an old Version to PBW...
I'd already fixed that, along with many other suggestions and changes.

It had fallen to page 2, so here is the link again:
Pirates & Nomads V3.1B - PBW (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043903425.zip)

Captain Kwok

February 8th, 2003, 12:14 AM

I find the excessive build times for many items to be annoying to say the least, especially for PBW. Can we not boost the construction rates a tad?

Suicide Junkie

February 8th, 2003, 02:50 AM

The everyday objects should be reasonably priced. You aren't trying to build these things at a colony with only 10M people are you?

To increase build rates, just add more people, or add a spaceyard expansion project.
Every 25M people gives you 1% more buildrate.

If you think training facilities are too expensive, try doing a retroseries, and don't go all the way up to 20%. Only galaxy-spanning empires can be expected to afford one that powerful.

[ February 08, 2003, 00:53: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Ed Kolis

February 12th, 2003, 09:50 PM

Hmm, just noticed that the Mini-Shield Generator I says it generates regular shields but the ability is phased shields like the other MSG's...

... and it sure seems strange for Mini-Shield Generators to require a higher level of Shield tech than Hardened Mini-Shield Generators... I know they are cheaper and they generate more shields, but it sure looks odd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 12th, 2003, 10:28 PM

The hardened shields do require armor tech, while the mini shields don't. I'll fiddle it a bit to make it look better.

I will fix that description, thanks for mentioning it.

Ed Kolis

February 18th, 2003, 02:05 AM

Also, the armored engines use the same pictures as the regular engines... can be confusing... why not use the fighter engine pics, those look armored...

Not to further delay that PBW game "Horrible Doom" though... what are they waiting on, even more bug fixes in P&N? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 18th, 2003, 07:56 AM

Well, I'd think that using the fighter engines would be pretty distracting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I have fiddled with the cultures for uniqueness and hopefully balance.

I've also gone through the weapons and sprinkled the double, half and quarter damage to shields damage types around, seeing as they work now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I also felt that, especially considering the new advantage with weapons variety it has, that the organic racial trait should be split.
I pulled the organic armors, and the medical labs, and merged them with the "living ships" trait.
What I have now, is two 1500 point organic traits; basically split into offensive and defensive.

I also took the time to make most ship beam weapons NOT target planets. The fighter Versions do target planets, for the most part.
I see this as accounting for atmosphere, and scale. Orbital beam weapons knock down a house or maybe just make the clouds glow. On a fighter strafing the city, it could bLast a few buildings and the damage would add up.
Antiproton beams definitely do NOT work in an atmosphere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ships will need to pull out the supply sucking missile weapons, planetary napalm or limited-quantity fighters to glass worlds. Or drop troops.

...

I'm also going to add some repair drones if I have the time to work out the details... They will be less efficient than regular repair components, but useful if you have a ship crippled at a warppoint and can't afford to send a ship to rescue it, or if you want to "store up" repair capacity for use all at once.

Suicide Junkie

February 18th, 2003, 07:06 PM

P&Nv3.1c PBW (zip) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1045587905.zip)

I have decided to go ahead and reorganize the racial traits.
Regular, Pirate and Nomad are now all at the top, and the Advantage/Disadvantage pairs are all together.

I've also moved all of the Basic racial tech areas into a Category called "Racial Insight", separate from the theoretical, applied, and weapon tech categories.
That should help organize things a little bit.

Also, large supply storage bays had the same family as huge bays. That has been fixed, so they now both appear under "Show Latest"

[ February 19, 2003, 04:36: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Ed Kolis

February 19th, 2003, 05:41 AM

Cool... I like the ship weapons not penetrating atmospheres... doesn't make much sense for barren worlds with no atmosphere, but eh, can't be perfect! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Gonna incorporate these changes into the PBW Version as well, then? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 19th, 2003, 06:40 AM

Actually, that is the PBW Version.

The planetary weapons restrictions will probably have too big an effect on basic AI strategy, so I don't think I'll be including that feature in the Solo Version

dumbluck

February 19th, 2003, 11:49 AM

Is this the Version that Horrible Doom is going to use?

Ed Kolis

February 19th, 2003, 05:17 PM

dumbluck: Let's hope so, weren't we waiting for some sort of bugfixes in P&N for Horrible Doom to start? Or did the PBW admins just never get around to switching the game over?

SJ: Oops, didn't notice the PBW at the end of the Version name! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 19th, 2003, 05:49 PM

I've uploaded the file to PBW under "P&N (humans only)"

Its the same file as below.
Be sure to redo your EMP file, as the old ones won't work anymore.

jimbob

February 20th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Hey, is it too late to jump into "Horrible Doom"? I'd love to jump into the game (depending upon the status of the non-gold PBW game of course)...

I have decided to go ahead and reorganize the racial traits.
Regular, Pirate and Nomad are now all at the top, and the Advantage/Disadvantage pairs are all together.
Thanks SJ, I realize that it was probably a lot of work to re-do the races, but it'll sure look snazzy (I'll go download it and have a look)

-jimbob

Binford

February 20th, 2003, 05:32 AM

Is there a link to what P&N is? Like I did for DevNull Mod at:

http://www.jeffleggett.com/DevNullMod.htm

Just curious...

Binford

Suicide Junkie

February 20th, 2003, 07:05 AM

I haven't got a recently updated one, but the description linked below should give you the basics.
http://www.sneakybuffalo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2486&highlight=pirates+nomads

dumbluck

February 20th, 2003, 12:26 PM

Jimbob: Horrible doom currently has 1 empty spot, so grab it before it's taken! The game hasn't even started yet, so you will even get to design your race as you see fit! As to the non-gold P&N game, I assume you're refering to P&N on PBW, take 2. It is currently full, and on turn #76, so I'm afraid you'll have to learn to live with disappointment in that regard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

edit: Erm, what's the point of having supply storage 1 and 2 both be starting techs? They are identical, except that SS2 holds 250 more supplies...
3rd edit: Well, it looks like SJ is cursing my name as he fixes the few bugs I've found, so we maybe should wait for the NEXT Version...

[ February 20, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

ZeroAdunn

February 20th, 2003, 11:17 PM

Sorry guys, haven't been keeping up. Horrible doom will be starting soon. Let me just say, I love this mod!

Suicide Junkie

February 21st, 2003, 12:48 AM

1) You are right that the supply tech should start one level lower.

2) No, large engines do not get armored Versions. They reduce the number of clicks you need, and can drastically reduce repair times. That was enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There is also a tech requirement missing from the DU autocannon IV.

I will be uploading the changes to PBW tonight. Are there any other bugs, questions or concerns before I do?

Ed Kolis

February 21st, 2003, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by dumbluck:
[QB]Jimbob: Horrible doom currently has 1 empty spot, so grab it before it's taken! The game hasn't even started yet, so you will even get to design your race as you see fit! As to the non-gold P&N game, I assume you're refering to P&N on PBW, take 2. It is currently full, and on turn #76, so I'm afraid you'll have to learn to live with disappointment in that regard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif /QB]Hey, nobody's stopping you from starting your own game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

jimbob

February 21st, 2003, 02:19 AM

Yah, no sweat, I was actually talking about the P&N v1.6c or some such... it's for SEIV, not SEIV gold.

Now I just have to go and find my gold CD...

Suicide Junkie

February 21st, 2003, 02:55 AM

P&N v1.x is for SE4 classic and does not include QNP.
The latest Version of that is labelled "P&N Classic"

P&N v2.x is for SE4 classic, and includes QNP plus more of the newer features of P&N.

Only v3.x are for SE4 Gold.

Ed Kolis

February 21st, 2003, 04:30 AM

..."Gravy Gun"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

While yer at it, why not add "Ketchup Kannon" and "Mustard Musket"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Not to mention "Pickle Pulse", "Mayo Mace", "Chutney Chredder", etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though, I was thinking the other day, "gee, wouldn't it be neat if P&N had other base race types other than regular, pirates and nomads... wonder what those could be, though?" I thought of "alternate reality" (like in Stars!) but since you can't have populations live on ships that wouldn't work too well... then again you did Nomads! Or "energy race"... But now the Gravy Gun gives me an idea for one... Cheese Heads! That's right, a place in P&N for all those cheesy technologies that come up in science fiction - your Stellar Converters, your Infinite Improbability Drives, your Wave Motion... oh wait they're already in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ... your Holly Hop Drives, and any more that anyone can think of! These guys would get all cheesy technologies instead of the regular techs... well it could be an attribute like Organic or Psychic but wouldn't it be more fun to have a whole race type built around cheesiness? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 21st, 2003, 05:42 AM

Slang for a nasty gravitational field based weapon. A small tribute to SchlockMercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)

See:
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20030215.html

Pax

February 21st, 2003, 06:56 AM

And if you don't mind having to get in close ... the Gravy Gun is gravy. 8) With LOTSA lumps ... for the other side. Heh.

480 damage ... low-tech and 480 damage ... WOOOO!!!

Suicide Junkie

February 21st, 2003, 07:03 AM

480 damage? Where?

I see 200 damage & 60kt, for 3.3 damage/kt/turn on the highest-tech one.

In fact, the number 480 only appears twice in the components.txt file... And that is for the rads cost of quantum engines (both armored and not).

dogscoff

February 21st, 2003, 12:02 PM

Here's (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010321.html) the episode of Schlock where "Gravy gun" was first coined.

I recommend reading from the beginning, but not at work, unless your boss thinks it's OK for you to sit there laughing all day long.

Ed Kolis

February 22nd, 2003, 08:16 AM

Say, if you can't fire APB's into an atmosphere, why can you fire them OUT of an atmosphere... see, they can be mounted on weapons platforms!

{SJ gets mad at my finding all these little bugs and fires an APB in my general direction, along with several of the players from "Horrible Doom" who are waiting for the game to start http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif }

Nodachi

February 22nd, 2003, 08:29 AM

Because weapon platforms use special mounts and because the atmosphere gets thinner as you go up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Pax

February 22nd, 2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
480 damage? Where?

I see 200 damage & 60kt, for 3.3 damage/kt/turn on the highest-tech one.

In fact, the number 480 only appears twice in the components.txt file... And that is for the rads cost of quantum engines (both armored and not).The starting Station hull, and a Large Base Mount, give the Gravy Gun III the following damage set:

480 480 480 90 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Compared to the normal, un-mounted Gravy gun's:

160 30 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Mind you, the mounted GG takes up 120kT of space, but still ... to range 3, it's 4 damage per kT ... 8)

Sorry , I didn't mean to imply the gun did that in it's BASIC form.

Fyron

February 22nd, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Say, if you can't fire APB's into an atmosphere, why can you fire them OUT of an atmosphere... see, they can be mounted on weapons platforms!

{SJ gets mad at my finding all these little bugs and fires an APB in my general direction, along with several of the players from "Horrible Doom" who are waiting for the game to start http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif }They could be floating weapon platforms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ed Kolis

February 22nd, 2003, 09:12 PM

Then wouldn't they be satellites? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hmm, I wonder why Starbases don't get some sort of Colossal Mount now that Warstations get the Massive Mount...

Fyron

February 22nd, 2003, 11:23 PM

No, satellites are orbital. "Floating" means floating in the atmosphere. Satellites "float" in space in orbit around the planet, not in the atmosphere.

Suicide Junkie

February 23rd, 2003, 02:26 AM

Okay, so no APBs on platforms, and a super mount for starbases...

Anything else?

Fyron

February 23rd, 2003, 02:53 AM

Hey! Leave APBs on weapon platforms. Don't make WPs next to useless by severely restricting the weapons that can be on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 23rd, 2003, 02:56 AM

APBs aren't the same uberweapon they were in unmodded SE4, and it is symmetrical, Fyron. APBs are supposed to be space-to-space weapons here.

Besides, there are a lot fewer things that can fire on platforms already. I think overall, platforms will be more powerful than before.

Fyron

February 23rd, 2003, 03:05 AM

Actually, APBs should probably function as a conditions deteriorating weapon when fired on planets. All that anti-matter would cancel out a lot of ozone (or whatever equivalent gas is on a planet with a non-O2 atmosphere) as it entered the atmosphere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 23rd, 2003, 03:54 AM

Matter-Antimatter annihilation is a one-to-one effect and extremely powerful per atom. Do you recall the sig involving the 1kg squirrel sig somebody once had? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The way I see it, the APB is going to be putting out almost unnoticable amounts of antimatter... (unnoticable that is, until it hits something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )
Then you get a nice fireball, but on the scale of poking holes in ships, not laying waste to the environment of a planet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I do not see antimatter being worth the trouble and expense for that type of job; not enough fallout, either. Better to just use a cheap 'ol dirty nuke (Radiation Bomb) and irradiate the place.

Edit: punctuation for clarity

PS: Feel free to disagree and convince me otherwise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 23, 2003, 02:27: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Pax

February 23rd, 2003, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Hey! Leave APBs on weapon platforms. Don't make WPs next to useless by severely restricting the weapons that can be on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif WPs next to useless?

Say that again ... aftr I build some Flux Cannon WPs. 40K damage if I get you at the right range.

PER.

Heh.

Also note, missiles are, if used right, more viable in P&N than in stock SE4. Use the heavies ... about twice hte space, for about four times the PD resistance.

Spoo

February 23rd, 2003, 09:36 AM

Do you recall the sig involving the 1kg squirrel sig somebody once had? Still has http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Ed Kolis

February 24th, 2003, 02:11 AM

Actually, aren't APB's even more of an uber weapon now - sure, they don't penetrate shields well, but if you throw in some shield depleters, you have one weapon that does 120 damage to shields in 20 kT, and another that does 120 damage to hull/armor in 30 kT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Of course, you do have to work the ratios right so you're not wasting any APB shots on shields or shield depleters on shieldless ships...

Fyron

February 24th, 2003, 02:22 AM

Pax, please keep up on the conversation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Gravitic weapons are not available to all races, only those with Gravity Manipulation Trait. So, that is a very bad example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 24th, 2003, 04:26 AM

"you have one weapon that does 120 damage to shields in 20 kT, and another that does 120 damage to hull/armor in 30 kT"

True. 4 DMG/KT is a bit excessive given the shield sapping weapons.

Such are the dangers of adding new damage types without enough play testing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now that you've drawn my attention to it, the fighter-class APBs also appear to be missing a zero in their costs.

P&N PBW 3.1 R4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046053561.zip)

Pax

February 24th, 2003, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Pax, please keep up on the conversation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Gravitic weapons are not available to all races, only those with Gravity Manipulation Trait. So, that is a very bad example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I did also point out that missile armaments, of various sorts, are more viable in P&N than elsewhere. A Large WP with 5 Heavy Bombardment missiles packs a significant punch, especially given the amount of PDC/PDL needed to shoot each one down.

Fyron

February 24th, 2003, 01:37 PM

I did not say missiles were a bad example, I said that gravitic weapons were a bad example.

jimbob

February 24th, 2003, 09:20 PM

Pax,

I'm glad you like the grav. tech tree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
It's good to know that somebody is using it. I personally thought that the slower the missile, the more PDF fire it would take... so the obvious method to increase missile value was to make 'em faster! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I have to admit that I haven't really tried out the bombardment missiles yet - they looked to massive to be worthwhile. Have you found them to be significantly useful (i.e. how does it compare vs 2x normal missiles; how do the normal and bombardment missiles compare when using the grav. tech tree)?

cheers,
jimbob

Ed Kolis

February 24th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Gee, I keep making you so busy releasing all these Versions when I notice yet another bug... but this isn't really a bug, more of a design decision - perhaps Natural Merchants should be more expensive since Spaceports take so long to build on fledgling colonies?

Pax

February 24th, 2003, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by jimbob:
Pax,

I'm glad you like the grav. tech tree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
It's good to know that somebody is using it. I personally thought that the slower the missile, the more PDF fire it would take... so the obvious method to increase missile value was to make 'em faster! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I have to admit that I haven't really tried out the bombardment missiles yet - they looked to massive to be worthwhile. Have you found them to be significantly useful (i.e. how does it compare vs 2x normal missiles; how do the normal and bombardment missiles compare when using the grav. tech tree)?

cheers,
jimbobWell, here's the thing. Comapre identical levels of missile -- without gravitic tech.

CSM versus HBM, you get 2 CSMs per HBM. Against unshielded targets, therefor, theCSMs do twice as much damage.

But each HBM takes FOUR times as much damage. If the enemy can shoot down 1 CSM per turn, teh HBM catches up in damage immediately. If they can shoot down 2 or 3 CSMs per turn, but not four, the HBM wins, period.

And that ignores the quad-to-shields trait of the HBM. In the same PDC/PDL environment, the HBM is superior to 2 CSMs against shielded targets, at ALL points of comparison.

...

Now, with Gravitic Technology, you get the G-Spike Versions. +10kT mass per launcher, and somethng close to 50% extra speed.

G-CSMs mass 60kt, G-HBMs mas 110kt. So, the comparison isn't quite 2:1 anymore; now it's 11 G-CSMs to 6 G-HBMs. The G-HBMs have the same damage resistance as twenty four G-CSMs ... for slightly better than half-damage, you are MUCH more likely to get a missile through. That only compounds with the higher-speed-means-less-PD-shots-taken benefit of the G-Spike launchers.

...

With all that said, however ... I don't know how effectvie it will TRULY prove to be, Ihaven't tried it out against humans yet. However, if nothing else, it should force opponents to devote MUCH more tonnage to PD weapons than they would otherwise. Especialy using G-Spike HBMs.

G-Spike alone helps tweak missiles better. HBMs alone are very useful when you consider how many get through as of chief importance.

G-Spike HBMs are just pure gravy, IMO. 8)

Pax

February 24th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Gee, I keep making you so busy releasing all these Versions when I notice yet another bug... but this isn't really a bug, more of a design decision - perhaps Natural Merchants should be more expensive since Spaceports take so long to build on fledgling colonies?VEry VERY good point ... !!! Saving thirty+ turns is a BIG help.

Ed Kolis

February 25th, 2003, 04:48 AM

Hmm, it looks like the ship mounts are showing up when you design bases... while this could be useful in certain situations (there's no equivalent of the Large Ship Mount for bases, for instance - the Large Base Mount is equivalent to the Heavy Ship Mount plus a range/tohit bonus - and you might not have enough space for another Large Base Mount weapon), it would get kind of cluttered... how about doing something similar to what you did to keep the base mounts off ships - make duplicate entries of each ship mount - Large Ship Mount would be 400-449 kT, 451-1749 kT, for instance (given that there are no 1750+ kT ships)

Suicide Junkie

February 25th, 2003, 04:52 AM

One thing you missed was the supply usage, and the rads cost of the G-spike "addons"

Two questions about natural merchants:
1) Do people actually use natural merchants that often in the regular game? IE: Will this simply help balance its use?

2) Is it really that advantageous? The scale of all building is altered by the same factor; IE even though the spaceport takes longer, the resource facilities take longer (about 7 turns), too.

I imagine you would place all the extra population immigrating to the new system on the spaceport planet first, so your spaceport will see a higher build rate, and by the time your other colonies actually need the spaceport, it should be almost done.

Suicide Junkie

February 25th, 2003, 07:28 AM

Okay! New component mounts file.
Ship mounts are not an option for bases, and supply use multipliers follow a nice damage^1.5 curve.
That also means you will have a lot of trouble finding ammo for your Core Mount Polaron Torpedo Launcher http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Be sure to carry a couple of hawking reactors and have supply ships standing by, or just use more conservative weapons.

Of course, by the time you've got battlemoons, you probably couldn't care less about such trivial matters as practicality http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

P&N3.1c R5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046150923.zip)

dumbluck

February 25th, 2003, 08:07 AM

IMHO, natural merchants is now underpriced. That's why I took it for my empire! "I shouldn't have told you that..."

PS: Bonus points if you can name that character/movie quote.

Pax

February 25th, 2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Two questions about natural merchants:
1) Do people actually use natural merchants that often in the regular game? IE: Will this simply help balance its use?Yep, all the time.

2) Is it really that advantageous? The scale of all building is altered by the same factor; IE even though the spaceport takes longer, the resource facilities take longer (about 7 turns), too.Put it this way -- I take Natural Merchants, you don't; we have the exact same culture, and Construction rate, etc. we each build one colony in a new system.

Your colony will have it's first resource center built and functioning ... sending resources to the capital ... in 37 turns.

In that time, I will have FIVE resource facilities -- with 2 entire turns to spare.

[b]I imagine you would place all the extra population immigrating to the new system on the spaceport planet first, so your spaceport will see a higher build rate, and by the time your other colonies actually need the spaceport, it should be almost done.[/QB]Or you build OTHER stuff faster. Research labs, maybe, tog et better tech -- meaning better pop transports ... meaning better immigration rates ... meaning better empire-wide construction rates.

Plus, all those OTHER colonies, which leapt right to building resource facilities, contribute THEIR utput to the empire right away too. Take the above example -- we each plant FIVE colonies. Assume you immigrate to teh SP first, and I psread it out. Assume that means you get 7 turns per colony world per resourcer, and ~20 turns for the SP. By the time you have the SP done, with 2 resourcers per off-colony ... assuming I immigrate evenly, and get 5 turns per resourcer per world, in those 20 turns, each of my four worlds has 4 facilities.

20 facilities producing for me, and some of them have BEEN producing (5 for 15 turns, 5 more for 10, and 5 more for 5), to your 8 facilities, which JUST came Online.

Trust me; the longer ALL build times are, the better not having a SP becomes. Especially with 30-turn SPs.

In P&N ... NM is worth 1500 to 2000, IMO.

Pax

February 25th, 2003, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by dumbluck:
IMHO, natural merchants is now underpriced. That's why I took it for my empire! "I shouldn't have told you that..."

PS: Bonus points if you can name that character/movie quote.Hagrid, in HP:TSS, of course. DUH. 8)

Suicide Junkie

February 25th, 2003, 06:48 PM

Good points.
In order to get the rate down to 5 turns per facility, you'd need about 100M per planet.
With a 5 planet system, that's 500M, or +20% when concentrated, giving the other player's spaceport planet 3x the normal buildrate.
The spaceport finishes in about 10 turns, while the resource facilities finish in 7.
The natural merchants would end up ahead by +(first 7)2+3*2(7th to 10th)= 8 facility-turns @ 26% (100M per planet).
Which is 1400 resources, or 1000 research points.

Naturally, given a smaller number of colonies per system, the benefit of natural merchants increases exponentially.

A similar amount of points spent on resource gathering traits will allow you to vastly increase the productivity of those same colonies as well as your established planets.

For example: spending 1000 points, I can boost all resource production to +7%
With -98% production due to size, that makes for quite the jump, and boosts production even in your established systems by 49 points per facility (any resource extractor).

With 1000 points concentrated, I could add 26% to research.
For a new colony in an established system, that amounts to 13x more production or 100M extra people, or 130 research points per facility (182 if it were resource production).

Heh. You know what they say about Statistics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
What do you think about natural merchants now?
(Note: I am still flexible, just trying to get a counter viewpoint out, and incite a little doubt in your race setups http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Pax

February 25th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I am still convinced it should be a 1500-cost trait. I am so regretting NOT taking Natural Merchants in Tsunami (P&N 3.1b, we started a couple days before 3.1c came out).

Ed Kolis

February 26th, 2003, 05:31 AM

Not to be annoying... but I've always assumed this was intentional - ALL the Nutty mounts are 80% tonnage structure - that's 80% of the STANDARD hitpoints, not 80% of the regular Version of the mount. In other words, a Large Nutty Mount APB has 24 kT structure. A Heavy Nutty Mount APB has 24 kT structure. A MASSIVE Nutty Mount APB has 24 kT structure. That WAS intentional... right? Or have I just forced you to release yet another tweak of P&N? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 26th, 2003, 06:24 AM

Alrighty, then.

1500 for natural merchants sounds fair, and nutty mounts give between 60% and 75% of the normal mounted hitpoints.
The nutty hitpoint multiplier now follows the weapon's size multiplier, raither than its damage multiplier as the other mounts do.

P&N 3.1c-PBW Revision #6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046233289.zip)
So, anything else need tweaking? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

jimbob

March 5th, 2003, 06:29 PM

so it's been one week, and nobody is suggesting any changes. SJ finishes his Last midterm today (good luck) and so we can probably start this game right away... right?

cheers
jimbob

dumbluck

March 6th, 2003, 12:23 PM

if you're refering to horrible doom, ZA for some reason is still asking the admins to update the game to revision 4... ??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Ed Kolis

March 7th, 2003, 12:43 AM

4, not 6? Hmm, better let him know... {emails ZA}

jimbob

March 7th, 2003, 12:45 AM

Ya, it should be #6... unless SJ comes out with another revision http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Suicide Junkie

March 7th, 2003, 12:51 AM

Well I do have a minor change ready, are there any other comments or tweaks to add?

Ed Kolis

March 13th, 2003, 11:58 PM

It's been a week, I guess not...

(really waiting for that Horrible DOOM game to start http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

edit: oh wait, there is one thing... not really a problem but more of something you ought to let people know about so they don't get confused... since you implemented bases as ships, that means that the "bases can be fleeted" option is effectively on no matter what it's set to (it's currently set to false)... I was about to tell you that bases had no means of being resupplied before solar collectors are researched but then realized that they're really ships so they can be fleeted with supply ships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

edit 2: oh, remember those 10 kT "MiniPlats" I suggested that could be used for armoring a planet? might not be a good time to put those in but it's a thought... hmm, you could put combat sensors on those too... of course they'd get destroyed even before the armor so that would be a bad idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 14, 2003, 19:40: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

jimbob

March 23rd, 2003, 04:21 AM

SJ and Crew: I'm really really sorry, but I can't find my original gold disk anywhere!! If you're willing to wait until Monday, I'll try and go buy one from CompuSmart. Otherwise I could send someone the design of my race and you could put it together for me and I'll just miss the first few rounds.

SJ: regarding the ongoing pre-gold game, noticed a few minor bugs (typos really). The large G-spike engines do not use enough resources per turn as compared to other large engines. I don't know if it's just a typo or if the problem is in the code... I'll leave that to you.

Ed Kolis

March 23rd, 2003, 05:24 AM

Buy an SE4 disk at a store??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif They sell them there now? Hmm, maybe it wasn't MOO3 that gave us all these new members all of a sudden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Besides, you can still run the game from your hard drive even without the CD, you just won't get to hear the music (which probably crashes your system anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

P&N had gravspike engines before the gold Version? <checks data file> hmm, I'll be darned, I thought they were newer than that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif but I know it didn't have large engines... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif oh well that's just me babbling on about what I know nothing about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

March 23rd, 2003, 05:31 AM

SJ: regarding the ongoing pre-gold game, noticed a few minor bugs (typos really). The large G-spike engines do not use enough resources per turn as compared to other large engines. I don't know if it's just a typo or if the problem is in the code... I'll leave that to you.The G-spike engines are supposed to have a slightly lower fuel use.
Since there are only four levels, they go up in thrust at the same time they go down in fuel use.

jimbob

March 23rd, 2003, 11:25 PM

Yah!!!!

I found my gold disk, so I don't have to go and buy a new one! (my internet is at work, and I didn't have the game on it... and I'd tried to just copy it straight across, but no dice. Doesn't matter now, cause I can just reinstall http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Oh, and I've got a friend (Stargrazer, he's in on the B5 game right now) who would like to try this mod too. Could we shoe-horn him in?

If so, we'll both get our races in on Monday.

Stargrazer

March 23rd, 2003, 11:45 PM

Jimbob will get me all the updates as I have dial-up, and then I will be able to play, if I am allowed...

Ed Kolis

March 24th, 2003, 01:07 AM

Well, we're also waiting for the PBW admins to change the game to P&N blah blah blah R6, since we keep getting new releases of P&N every other day now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

jimbob

March 24th, 2003, 10:48 PM

Well I just downloaded R7, so should I burn Stargrazer a copy now, or wait another day (only so many 'free' CDs here at work ya know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )?

SJ:
regarding the engine error I mentioned before. I realize that the supplies used decreases for the grav spike engines... but should the Large and Small both use only 9 supplies? That's where I think the typo is...

[ March 24, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Suicide Junkie

March 25th, 2003, 02:21 AM

Hrmm.. On my copy, I see the "large grav drive I" using 43 supplies.

And all of the small (fighter) drives use either 2 or 1 supplies (well, zero for sails).

[ March 25, 2003, 00:26: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

jimbob

March 25th, 2003, 06:58 PM

Yes, for the P&N 3.1c this is likely true. However I'm talking about the P&N v2.6. It may be that the engine is actually using 40+ supplies, but I'm certain that the description is coming up with supply use "9". Of course I could actually be going insane (quite likely actually http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), so if it would be handy I could send you the password for my empire, and you could have a look.

But talking about the P&N 3.1c (R7 I believe). I was getting an error when the computer players turns went by (I know it's a human only, but I just wanted to be sure my race would work, try out some tech, etc). Something about unknown fleet orders for "drone attack". Will this cause problems when the PBW game is processed?

Hope these little trouble shoots help. As always, the P&N universe(s) is/are my favorite, so thanks for making it/them.

dumbluck

March 25th, 2003, 07:44 PM

Woo-Hoo! Revision 7!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ March 25, 2003, 17:44: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Suicide Junkie

March 25th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Ah! That makes all the difference http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

All of the recent things were about 3.1c, so I didn't think to check the classic Version.

You are right, and it should be 43 supplies used.

jimbob

March 28th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Well gents,

I'll be out of town this weekend (back Monday night) so I'll be happy to play the game, and have my empire in, etc. etc. But I need to know if we're using R(evision)7, or if we can wait till monday for R8. SJ?

Suicide Junkie

March 28th, 2003, 12:33 AM

There is no planned revision 8 at this time.

The bug reported below was for the SE4 classic Version, not the Gold PBW Version which Horrible Doom was planning to use.

jimbob

April 1st, 2003, 07:23 PM

All right!

I'm ready to boogie on the new game (revision 7). I need some advice on the fact that I've installed the 3rd gold patch -- will this screw up everything? Is my race .emp file going to be okay?

Can we start soon though? I've noticed that a long lag time at start up often costs us players in the PBW realm. I'm really looking forward to this game, and hope everyone will stay on board!

Jimbob

Suicide Junkie

April 1st, 2003, 08:01 PM

Patches will NOT adversely affect your EMPs or even savegames for P&N.

You can't load a patch 3 savegame under patch 2, but that isn't an issue here.

David E. Gervais

April 1st, 2003, 08:04 PM

SJ have you checked your private Messages lately? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Suicide Junkie

April 1st, 2003, 08:48 PM

Actually, yes, but that was on the weekend, and I hadn't gotten any Messages for a month http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Today I have two, thanks!

trooper

April 12th, 2003, 12:10 PM

Ladies (if any) and gentlemen,
Let me teel you about the pirates shipset (Version 2.0), created for P&N (and now full neostandard compliant for your modded games).
AI files compliant with stock game (because it's impossible to have a pirate working AI !).

http://diesel2035.free.fr/pirates/

[ April 12, 2003, 11:11: Message edited by: trooper ]

Suicide Junkie

April 23rd, 2003, 03:54 AM

SJ's Industry Patch.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1051062723.zip)(141 kb)

Courtesy of the Tech Gridder, this patch enables A ten level industry tech area. It reduces component costs by 7 to 8% per level researched, giving up to a total of 50% off the original prices.

Requires 7 megabytes of free Hard Drive Space (!)
NOTE: This is NOT compatible with savegames.

Phoenix-D

April 23rd, 2003, 04:54 AM

SJ's Industry Patch.zip(141 kb)
"Requires 7 megabytes of free Hard Drive Space"

Don't text files compress well? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

April 23rd, 2003, 05:15 AM

Yep. The compression ratio was quite a pleasant surprise.

Ed Kolis

May 9th, 2003, 03:04 AM

Say, how about if Cheap Components used more supply and Premium/High Quality used less? Would prevent players from going with a Cheap Mount warp opener and saving thousands of resources http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif well they could, but it would use even more obscene amounts of supply!

narf poit chez BOOM

May 9th, 2003, 04:31 AM

*blink*blink*
no updated much. narf suprised.

Ed Kolis

May 13th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Any reason the Psychic Ship Training Facilities were removed in the PBW Version? Sure, ship training got moved to components, but why can't the Psychic tech get some too? It's kind of pathetic at the moment... only Psychic Sensors for the first 3 levels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif You didn't just forget did you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

edit: well, actually psychic sensors aren't so bad... what with the diversified cloaking it's not like you can just research cloaking devices to defeat them... psychic sensors can detect any ship that doesn't have a master computer, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

of course they'd be useless against drones, mines, satellites, etc. I'd presume... what, they're NOT? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif but they're not MANNED... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ May 13, 2003, 23:01: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

Suicide Junkie

May 14th, 2003, 03:55 AM

Oooh.

Sounds like revision 8 is coming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Unmanned vehicles get Psy cloak...

edit: well, actually psychic sensors aren't so bad... what with the diversified cloaking it's not like you can just research cloaking devices to defeat them... psychic sensors can detect any ship that doesn't have a master computer, right? Well, organic armor will mask lifesigns against level 1 scanners, but pretty much, yeah, and only Military Grade MCs are for good protection. The civilian computers have too compact intelligences, and can be detected by Psy.

---

No, wait, nevermind!
I just remembered why I didn't add psy cloak to those vehicles...
They'd always try to be cloaked, and you'd have trouble using them for defense.

Other than mines, of course, which are permanently invisible (except for large-mass mines)

---

Also:
Update for non-PBW gold P&N
Dataupdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1052879595.zip)

From playtesting in a LAN game, there are some tweaks here to fix a null space upgrade bug, and an AI fix to prevent micro-mounted rocket pods (micro mount causes zero range, and makes for useless fighters)

[ May 14, 2003, 03:35: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Ed Kolis

May 21st, 2003, 06:09 AM

Now this is really nitpicking, but the 94% maintenance reduction on bases gives 76% reduction from the base 75% reduction, not another 75% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Krsqk

May 21st, 2003, 06:21 AM

ISTR a problem with fighters in my Last P&N game--the United Flora were using micro-mount somethings with the boarding party picture on them. Zero damage at any range, so I didn't fear their carriers too much. I didn't run into any other races with carriers--most died too quickly (not by me; by the UF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ), so I don't know if the AI's picking a wierd component family or weapon family or what.

[edit]Forgot to specify P&N v3.1 non-PBW.

[ May 21, 2003, 05:22: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Taera

May 21st, 2003, 06:29 AM

lemme add my part to the long thread.... i have the P&N and am in a PBW game with it. now iway too lazy to go and find out myself... how pirate and nomad races are different from normals?

a quick list would be enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 21, 2003, 05:32: Message edited by: Taera ]

Suicide Junkie

May 21st, 2003, 04:21 PM

Now this is really nitpicking, but the 94% maintenance reduction on bases gives 76% reduction from the base 75% reduction, not another 75%Rounding Error http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Krsqk:
ISTR a problem with fighters in my Last P&N game--the United Flora were using micro-mount somethings with the boarding party picture on them. Zero damage at any range, so I didn't fear their carriers too much. I didn't run into any other races with carriers--most died too quickly (not by me; by the UF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ), so I don't know if the AI's picking a wierd component family or weapon family or what.

[edit]Forgot to specify P&N v3.1 non-PBW.I'm pretty sure that only pirates ever had boarding parties for fighters (which never did work, and got removed)...

This Dataupdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1052879595.zip) deals with an issue regarding the AIs putting micromount "Rocket Pods" on their fighters and thus reducing their range to zero...

lemme add my part to the long thread.... i have the P&N and am in a PBW game with it. now iway too lazy to go and find out myself... how pirate and nomad races are different from normals?Pirates & Nomads don't get colonies... instead, they get other special advantages, such as:
Nomad:
- Superlow (1% before race modifiers) mainteance ships
- +2 levels in fighter tech
- 100kt shipyards
- cheap boarding parties

Pirate:
- Low maintenance, completely undetectable "Civilian Ships"
- 100kt shipyards
- cheap boarding parties
- "slave labour camps" (facility)

There is certainly more, but the general idea is that the Pirates & Nomads have the capacity to live without needing colonies.