A pirates life for me...

[WhiteHojo]

Seems that todays topics are leaning toward new race types (saw one on making silicoids and another about a gypsie type race)...

Thought I'd throw in my idea (actually someone eles mentioned it quite awhile back but I never saw any more info on it).

The idea is obvious from the title of this post - PIRATES!!!

OK - we have a topic, so now we (meaning I) need some ideas, feedback and help.

I've just done a quick setup of possible options and research areas that a pirate race would need/start out with.

The Race name should be "Corsairs" - always thought that was a neat sounding name.

empire type - Confederation - a loose collection of clans/planets that make up the Corsair community/confederation.

Title - need some help - was thinking either Grand Admiral (sounds awfully official/governmental for a bunch of cutthroats) or King (as in Pirate King)

Environment - Carbon Dioxide - just cause...

Planet type - either ice or Gas Giant - I thought the Corsairs shouldn't be on a rock - too many of those planet types and ice or GG seem to be a little rarer (espicially playing w/limiting colonizing to home world types only - my personal favorite right now) - want to keep the # of their planets below those of other races (rock type particularly)

I toyed w/the idea of setting em as Renegades but decided against it - went with neutral instead - any help/ideas here wld be welcomed

Demenor - Impulsive - if you can't be impulsive why be a pirate?

Happiness type - Bloodthirsty - of course.

Special racial traits - also off the top of the ole head:
propulsion experts - +1 movement - they should be the masters of the seas/space

Advanced storage tech - 120% - used to making the most w/limited space - seemed appropriate

Hardy Industrialists - 125% planet SY - didn't like the name of this trait but felt the increased SY rate would fit a race that lives/dies by its fleets.

Temporal Knowledge - liked the shield depleted wpns of this race as well as the Temp'al SY - once again, they are a space goin race

The ship design name file should be a list of classic/historic ship names - unfortuanately, my cupboard is bare of this type of info - a little help maybe?

Minister style - aggressive - why not?

and now the individual racial traits:

-10% to Research: they should take tech from others via ship capture (which I believe should be a VERY big part of this race) and not research it.

-5% to Reproduction: Limits the pop

+7% to ship Attack & +5% to Ship Def: thought about just goin w/+12% to SA but spread it out - pirates should be good at space warfare

-20% to Trade: pirates are not the most popular people in the galaxy and not many will openly trade w/em

-15% to all resource production: Not good miners, farmers, etc... they're pirates!!!

+10% to SY Const Rate: they should be experts at building ships

+6% to Repair: ships are they're life, so they should know all the tricks to fixing em.

+10% to Maint Reduction: Wld like to have this even higher but couldn't figure out where to get the extra from - this allows for large standing fleets.

As far as research priorities, I haven't really delved into that aspect yet. (also, I'm not sure my skills are up to moddin a research file just yet - any help would be verr welcome)

my thoughts are that ship capture should be the main goal of this race (not so sure planet capturing would be that high though? Maybe they just like to plunder, ie. destroy, planets instead of capturing (permanent) em?) My experience on ship capturing is you need shield depleting wpns of some type, either normal or the temporal type. You have to have good shields yourself and fast engines - to get close enough to board fast w/o getting destroyed. So those types of techs should be high priority.

Better stop for now - post is getting a little long... any feedback would be appreciated.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Spyder]

+10 to Intelligence....their spies are EVERYWHERE http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[Spyder]

Their maintenance should be more, not less. They have to cannibalize for spare parts, etc...



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[WhiteHojo]

Spyder - I agree w/the bonus to intel but for another reason - thought pirates wld be difficult to infiltrate so wanted a bonus to intell defensive ops (the counter I suppose is that a pirate has no loyalty and should be easier to co-op via PPP or crew insurrections)

the maintainence, to me, shld be lower simply due to the old axiom "practice makes perfect" - if you know your ships inside and out and realize there parts/resources are limited, you'll take care of what you have. Besides if I bumped the maint cost up coupled w/the lower resources, they wouldn't be able to field any ships.

keep the ideas commin though

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

pirates sound great, however, instead of destroying a plundered planet you could make them steal all the resources, or each turn that they are blocading planet they steal a certin % of resources from planet until they are gone, disrupt trade, etc, this would force owner to send ships to either chase them away or destroy them. just some ideas
mac5732

[Spyder]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Spyder - I agree w/the bonus to intel but for another reason - thought pirates wld be difficult to infiltrate so wanted a bonus to intell defensive ops (the counter I suppose is that a pirate has no loyalty and should be easier to co-op via PPP or crew insurrections)

the maintainence, to me, shld be lower simply due to the old axiom "practice makes perfect" - if you know your ships inside and out and realize there parts/resources are limited, you'll take care of what you have. Besides if I bumped the maint cost up coupled w/the lower resources, they wouldn't be able to field any ships.

keep the ideas commin though

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, if you know your history you'll know that pirates didn't do Maintenance (Maintain is root word)...they canabilized from captured ships and when their own ship got too bad off, they scuttled it and used a captured ship. They didn't do much real maintenance...only what was required, and what the captain could make them do. Their discipline was pretty poor....

Now, I WOULD give them the Recycle techs right off because they were great at using whatever they had on hand to accomplish their mission.


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Windborne]

Pirates should be fairly easy to simulate, just make sure your race specializes in ground combat and ship capture, a pirate race doesn't build it's own ships too often, it takes those of others so make sure it's good at that, good at repairing "canabalizing" the pilfered hulls should be a must too, as should space combat.

[Suicide Junkie]

For REAL pirates, I believe some good traits would be:

-50% to all production
This means that ships will be supported more by capturing and scrapping enemy ships, and less from planets.

-50% to research
This means get ship capture, and steal the rest.

-9% to Reproduction
Pirates don't get along too well when there's billions of 'em, and we don't want them colonizing. Pirates should be capturing the planet, and then selling off the infrastructure for money, and then abandoning it before the empire's fleets come.

+20% off maintenance.
They know exactly what needs fixing and what dosen't, and can live with ships that are held together by spit and alien hides.

+15/+20 Aggression and Defence
Losing even one ship can be a major blow to small pirate organizations, so it better not happen often.

Definitely have Advanced propulsion, and maybe Temporal for the shield depletion effect.

Mods required section:
Free resource storage with each ship/base.
OR
Resource storage components for ships/bases.
This way, you can keep your treasure without need for a planet.

A racial trait, where the pirates can immediately research Storm Generators, so they can hide their ships & bases.
--------------
Basically my idea of an Ideal Pirate race, would be one that lives by stealing everything from other empires, and hides bases out in nebulas & storms for resupply & retrofitting.

The reace would probably not colonize, and would have its homeworld hidden in a storm or nebula.

Naturally, only a human player would be able to pull this off.

Maybe a multiplayer game, where you play against AIs to see who can build the largest criminal organization.

[Spyder]

I think the nomadic & Pirate ideas are one & the same http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, if you think about it, they can't really win the game...if they kill everyone off, there'll be noone left to leech from...

I DO think that they'd be a great AI race that would have to be overcome though....



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[Str8_Gain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spyder:
I DO think that they'd be a great AI race that would have to be overcome though....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or one to have as a trusted ally. Sic them on your enemies!

[WhiteHojo]

Spyder - I believe you are thinking along the same lines as me. I was hoping to be able to build a race for the AI to run that would be rather annoying and fun to play against. like a cross b/t a neutral and the EA.

As the race is taking shape, w/o the ability to research and expand rapidly, I agree that they would not be able to win the game - at some point they would collapse in on themselves (no one readily availble to capture and plunder = no more growth). However, I believe they would be as viable a race even w/o the realistic ability to win the game as most of the other so called active AI empires. (always seems to be just 7 or so AI empires that always seem to be near the top in most games)

I like the idea of givin em some advanced techs early (kinda offsets the low research rate)... maybe both Resource Manipulation facilities (ulta-recycler & resource converter - max levels?)... maybe ship and fleet training techs... start out w/Light Cruiser hulls & repair tech???

my concern would be to in makin em too powerful right off the bat - but remember that it will be the AI using them, not a human - so not as much chance of takin advantage of the advances.

Also, if you did give em more advanced tech at start, the penalty to their research would have to be rather drastic (-50% is the max)

I am still concerned over the effect the higher maintanence cost would have on the races ability to field a respectable sized fleet... more argument is welcome.

taking all the ideas in so far, the latest Version of the Corsair's traits:

removed Hardy Industrialists - joining the capture more/build less ranks

-50% to Research
+10% to Intell
-9% to reproduction
+25% to Ship Attack
+20% to ship Def
-30% to trade
-15% to all resources
+20% to repair rate

all other traits stay at default 100%

Wanted to boost the ground combat up by 20% but then I remembered that I've never seen the AI try, let alone capture, a planet via ground combat...

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Sinapus]

Okay, but only if someone with a lot of familiarity with Gilbert and Sullivan do the speech file.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[Suicide Junkie]

I had a bunch of good ideas while posting in the Nomadic Thread.

It would be possible to force the race to live without planetary support, by preventing colonization tech, and minimizing the returns from planets. With zero maintenance, they can survive without a planet, and grow by capturing ships and tech.

In fact, they'd be very virus/borg-like, assimilating all they can, and then upgrading the ships to capture more ships.

In fact, if you give them zero maintenance, then they do have a chance to win the game.

---------------

As soon as exams are over, I'm gonna design a race like that, 0 maintenance, and max negative planetary traits, with no colonization tech allowed.

You'll start with a planet, and use that to build SYS's which will hide out from the AI, and scavenge crippled ships for survival.

Underdog victories, with a hint of desperation, and tons of sneakiness, oh Yeah!

[WhiteHojo]

w/a 0 maintenance though, they would be more cancer like than pirate like. Imagine the horror - a race w/no maintenance cost shows up in your systems w/ship capturing tech and a mean disposition - you send out a fleet to stop em, WHAM - they are now turned against you - you send more - oops - those also. Not sure I'd like where that is heading.



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

That situation can be easily defended against by having mines/sats/fighters which can't be captured.

Your ships would already be heavily shielded, and you would likely add self destruct if you knew pirates were in the area.

You could always ram if your shields are about to fail, and security stations work well too.

Besides, If ship capture tech was so dangerous, why do you run around with phased polaron beams and WMGs, when you could just have a fleet o ship capture tech & a space yard to scrap what you can't support?

The pirates will have to do hit-and-run tactics on your lightly defended colonies and solo ships.

Anything you lose, you can replace.
Anything Pirates lose, they've lost for good.

So, in a straight out fight, the pirates will be crushed. The pirates have to completely win blowout battles, if they hope to capture more than they lose. You, on the other hand, can build more ships and fight back after losses.

[dmm]

Invading pirates could be defeated with fighters, which can't be boarded. Or maybe just surround your fleet with fighters, so the pirates can't get close enough to board.

By the way, can fighter Groups be rammed?

[dmm]

Hey, suicide_junkie, great minds think alike.

[dmm]

Maybe pirates should be Psychic, so they can keep going in the later game.

[WhiteHojo]

Try to play a game using ship capturing tech - it's alot easier than it seems once you get past the ridiculously high research cost to attain Ship Capture tech. (once got it very early in a game via ruins - made the game rather easy after that) PPBs are good - very good in fact but only till the other side gets 2nd gen phased shields then they're just as effective as any other wpn.

the self destruct device is a rather tough obstecle to overcome but w/the new fleet option allowing destroying a ship till X% of it is disabled it might be more feasable to combat against.

I just hate mines but you're right about the fighters and mines being a good counter - untill you run into PD-Vs - then it gets a little tougher.

However, another thought accured to me for the little pirate race - fighters should be involved somehow - no maintenance fee and they're cheap to build. Send in the Fighters to soften up the fleet then follow w/a wave of ship capture. Ideas.


EDIT - that 1st line sounds rather tacky and rude - didn't mean it to sound that way - sorry
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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Yeah, fighters can (and should) be rammed.

They have almost no hitpoints, so you can bump piles of em out of the way provided you have some heavy armor.


Yeah, in summary:

- Ship capture tech is easily beaten by non-capturable units.
- Pirates lose in big Fleet-to-Fleet confrontations, since they must capture to recover losses.


Additional:
Fleet situations make capturing dangerous, since the boarding ship loses ALL shielding, and the captured ship has no shields.
Any remaining Loyal ships, now have the opportunity to take out two defenceless enemy ships.

Plus: Boarding parties must be repaired after capturing. SOooo, Once the pirates have all they can carry, they'll be heading off into deep space again, hoping you won't follow.

[dmm]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Anything you lose, you can replace.
Anything Pirates lose, they've lost for good.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but pirates would win some ships in every battle (unless appropriate countermeasures have been taken beforehand). So they do have a way to replenish.

But you're right, they should only attack isolated ships and small fleets. That's more likely to yield a net gain of ships. More importantly, if they don't take much at one time from any one player, then there's less incentive for players to use up space on ships with anti-pirate gizmos. So they need to keep their depradations below the "pain threshold."

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 01 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

Suicide - disregard my previous post - after I wrote it I went back and actually put my mind to work - you are correct, obviously large fleets would win out over ship capturing fleet - the little problem of the shield being permanately dropped on a ship that has captured another ship makes em rather easy targets - god but I hate that quirk.

Another thought - make em Organic. Instead of shields, load up w/regenerating armor.

thoughts.

(man I should be working)

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So they need to keep their depradations below the "pain threshold."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. However, even if they do enrage the race, they can lie low for a while.

Adding all that anti-pirate tech, will make his ships less efficient in battling his real enemies, and he'll have to switch back eventually.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the little problem of the shield being permanately dropped on a ship that has captured another ship makes em rather easy targets - god but I hate that quirk<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I don't mind it too much. Thats what regenerators are for.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(man I should be working)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hehe me too. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arrrrr! Maybe we should make "Parrot" a required component.

[WhiteHojo]

my god!!! I've had an Epefani (no jokes bout ma spellin)!!!!

Shield regenerators ARE for puttin back up shields!!!!

Just call me Homer. Dohhhh!

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[dmm]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
my god!!! I've had an Epefani (no jokes bout ma spellin)!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
epiphany

At least your vocabulary is good;
that's more impt nowadays, what with
spell checkers. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

As long as you can recognize the correct spelling from a list of possibles! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT: Just checked. Word 97 knows what you meant.

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Marty Ward]

I think this is a great idea for a rade style but you have to give them planets or else create a whole new tech tree with extremely low research cost. Without it they will take forever just to research Light Crusiers much less any of the techs needed to pirate effectively.
They also should have special facilities available with the Pirate racial trait. A pirates den facility to store all their loot! This could also generate tons of intel and whatever other bonuses you want to give them.
You could really do a lot with this idea.
I think it certainly can be done and would be a bLast to play!

[Str8_Gain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
Maybe pirates should be Psychic, so they can keep going in the later game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would make sense, since it'd allow them to capture ships (relatively) intact without worrying about them using Self-Destruct. Then again, sticking Master Computers on is an easy counter to Alliegance Subverters.

Possible idea for new component (this ties in to my idea about a new racial trait, Machine Cultures): A way to subvert Master Computers. Of course, this would require hard-code changes to implement, since the current Abilities won't permit "Crew ConVersion" on a ship w/ Master Computers. A counter for this could be an Anti-Viral program running on the MC, that also protects against Computer Virus.

[Str8_Gain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
[B]I think this is a great idea for a race style but you have to give them planets or else create a whole new tech tree with extremely low research cost. Without it they will take forever just to research Light Crusiers much less any of the techs needed to pirate effectively[B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this could be one reason to ally with them. You could always build "export" Versions of your ships to sell to the pirates (presumably one or two tech levels below what you have, to prevent them from stabbing you in the back). Give them better ships than they can research/capture in exchange for their support (not attacking your ships, and becoming a force of marque and reprisal against the other empires).

Another possible idea:RANSOM. Especially if they capture population transports.

[Suicide Junkie]

As for technology, the pirates will STEAL it.

With only your homeworld, you would want to research a couple of ship sizes, and ship capture, and then depend on pirating to grow in tech and power.

Pirate racial traits would best include a resource storage component for starbases.

Speaking of which, maybe everybody should be able to build storage in orbit. say 1000KT of resources in a 500KT bay. If you keep costs & maintenance low, it could be useful.

Watch out for raiders though. Losing your storage could be dangerous...


Given a proper early priority on ship construction and ship capture, Human Pirates should be able to flourish.

[WhiteHojo]

How bout starting em w/Light cruiser tech, ship capture tech, 2nd gen engines, cargo III tech, some type of shield tech (3 or 4 or 5?) or maybe make em organic w/org tech III (org armor III works pretty well for ship capture - don't have to worry bout droppin shields), recycle tech III, some type of shield defeating wpns and PDIIs??? All this coupled w/very low research rates should keep em from getting ahead too fast.

Maybe design their own ship yard construction tech tree that will only yield planet bound space yards to level I and allowing the space based Version to go to level III (couple this w/a 150% increase in space yard production and they could be competitive in the construction field w/o dominating - would also force em to build ships in orbit which for some reason to me seems more appropriate for pirates, no rational reason)

Increase their Intel production and lower reproduction rate (the combo of lower repro rate and the org tech of gestation vats, etc could be problemsome)

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Spyder]

That all sounds good, but, you'd also have to make ship-bound recycle techs to improve their efficiency in the recycling of captured, obsolete ships. I'd also add a tech that allows them to be more efficient with robo miners/farmers/extractors, and maybe a tech that reduces the rate at which the value of the planet/asteroid is reduced. We need to give them a way to get the necessary materials...

I'd make Repair cheap and Maintenance moderately expensive....it'd be cheaper to scrap an old ship and rebuild, than upgrade it, in that light, you should (somehow) make upgrading less feasible...Say, instead of have a 50% more expensive limit, make it 25%...


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 02 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

can you make a ship component w/planet facility abilities? I thought that was not possible, such as trying to make a ship based research component.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Spyder]

Well, the thing is we're trying to create a ship-bound race. He needs a way to do those planet-ty things on board his ships. Research, recycling, intelligence, etc all need to be performed on a base or ship somehow....

Maybe MM will have to make some code changes, I think this is a great idea....&lt;looks across the pond at MM&gt;


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[Taqwus]

That, plus a way to specify that a race would get ships to start with (and no planet), and probably a way to specify that a race awards certain specific tech at once, too. A ship-borne race has a LOT of problems to deal with, such as resupply (they'd need either some solar collectors, or perhaps a large engine that doesn't need supply (or maybe small, but only providing bonus movement ala a Solar Sail))... they'd need to start with a shipyard ship as well, or have a way to get one.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[WhiteHojo]

ooops... "ship bound race"... uhhhh, I kinda thought a pirate should have a port (ie, planet). Anyway, the ship recycler abilities would be nice to have for the pirates but the storage, etc aspects, to me, just aren't as important for a pirate race as they would be for a nomad race (as talked about in another thread)... I envision pirates as being similiar to other earth bound races, just w/different abilities and disadvantages.

A true "ship bound" race would be more of a parasite type race than a pirate type. (not sure I could actually expound on what the exact definition of those 2 descriptions would be though - I suppose it's like Marshall-I believe it was him- said regarding pornography "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it")



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

I like the idea of both pirates and the Nomads. Possibly incorporate both races, each with their own racial profiles, and options for their particular races and specific tech trees designed for just their particular race. This would make the game quite interesting.

Pirates usually had hidden and secret bases, therefore, give them either the ability to have a form of cloaking at beginning or as a research tech. you could start them out in 2 or more random selected areas of the map with hidden bases. Their bases could be cloaked and/or hidden in astroid fields, nebulas etc. and the bases should be heavily armed. Their fleets should have ability to attack planets even if defended by defense systems to steal population, resources to help build, research Tech etc.
They would have to be race that eventually has to be dealt with sooner or later and give them something that they could win the game, that way they are not just an irratint
but an actual threat. Possibly have them interdict systems stopping all trade, resources etc coming from those systems until they are removed, destroyed or forced to flee. just some ideas. mac5732

[Spyder]

Well, both ideas (to me) were half-ideas. The nomads couldn't make it unless they were pirates, and, pirates wouldn't work (very well) unless they were nomads. Combining them made sense. Both need shipboard capabilities for normally planet-bound activities.

Pirates (not privateers) had bases of operation, but, they were not continents or countries, they were isolated islands away from scrutiny, and they moved when discovered. Consequently, SEIV Pirates would not have a planet, but, a constantly moving base of operations...nomadic.


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 02 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

One point that I'd like to make is that a Pirate/Nomad race is possible already with the correct racial choices.

ie. maximum negative values on everything planetary.
maximum positive on research, so you can start off with a decent tech.
merchants,maintenance bonus, so you have 0 or 1% maintenance (0 is better, 1 is really hard)
And all the rest of your points into whatever you feel is good.

As a human, you should be able to grow & win via Pirating.

[Nitram Draw]

Small moons would be perfect hideouts for the Pirates! Could they be programmed to only pick those types?

[Nitram Draw]

My ideas for Pirate building, available only through Pirate trait.
Pirate Den: 10,000 intel;sy builds 1000 ea
Pirate Mine:300 ea resource
Chop Shop:resource reclamation 50%; repair 5 components
Black Market: resource reclamation 75%; repair 8 components
Tavern: 2,000 intel; solar resource collector all resources
Pirate Bank: Spaceport; 100,000 storage all resources.
More if work slows up.
Thinking of Pirate weapons next!
Is someone going to do an AI?

[Spyder]

Some types of special tractor beams; shield disablers; kill-people-without-damaging-hardware weapons; special cloaking mechanism(s) requiring special detection techs; Light Sabres for small weapons tech http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ...I'll think of more


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[Nitram Draw]

Oh yeah!
Ships:
Sloop, Universal Colony Ship, Schooner, Clipper, Frigate, Ship of the Line, Man of War, Galleon. Cheap hull costs for all.
New Intel project: Ransom gives you lots of resources.
This could be great!
Can facilities be cloaked? That would make them hard to track down.

[Nitram Draw]

The main problem I see with Pirates would be getting started. You would not want the colonizing as rapidly as others but by the time they made contact they may be so far behind in technology that they are just a roving neutral.
I think they should have high intel, combat and repair, lousy production and research, and normal build and maitenance.
They also have to have special techs,grappling hook stronger boarding parties,shield busters etc.
If I knew how to make a new tech tree I'd give it a first pass for one of the mod squad to refine!

[Spyder]

Yes, that indeed would be a problem....you'd have to start them with several planetary bases and several ships to begin...maybe some propulsion advantages too. But, you are right, they'd need a jump-start..



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[Windborne]

The nomad race is certainly different from the pirate idea because they have the chance to win, special facilities that make SPACE itself their home planet, things like being able to mine nebulae, research centers on ships, population that lives and grows on ships, etc . .

However the pirate race could easilly be a nomadic MINOR race option, limited to only maintaining a small fleet of their own ships and a larger fleet of captured vessels, limited in how much they could mine/refine themselves, etc . . . This would lead to a situation where the small pirate fleet couldn't support all it's ships/troops without tribute and plunder from other races.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm playing as a pirate race right now.

Game settings of Note:
Warp Points anywhere in system.
Hard AI, Medium Bonus

Race Settings:
Intel: 101%
Cunning: 50% (no intel tech allowed)
Environment: 50%
Reproduction: 91%
Happiness: 50%
Ship Attack: 125%
Ship Defence: 125%
Political Savvy: 50%

Mining Apt: 50%
Farming: 50%
Refining: 50%
Construction: 50%
Repair: 121%
Maintenance: 120%

Racial Traits:

Merchants.
Propulsion Experts.
Psychic.


Homeworld: Rock : None

Self-imposed Limitations: No colony Designs

--------------------

So Far;

Date: 2407.9

Homeworld: X141 VIII: Large, 116%, 125%, 123%
Colonies: X141 VI: Huge (domed) 92%, 108%, 2%
X141 VI A: Tiny, 104%, 9%, 54%

Budget:
Research: 9,335
Priorities: Armor, Psychic Tech.

Produced: 7,145 (M) : 1,100 (O) : 1,082 (R)
Maint: Zero
Used: 6,200 (M) : 400(O) : 1,000 (R)
Treasury: 25,622 (M) : 50,000 (O) : 49,613 (R)

StarFleet:
C&R -&gt; Captured & Retrofitted to ship capture
BBM -&gt; Built By Me as ship capture design

Escorts:
- (1) C & R

Frigates:
- (0) (All lost in battle)

Destroyers:
- (4) C & R
- (1) BBM.

Light Cruisers:
- (33) C & R
- (3) Captured & Used (temporal tech)
- (5) BBM

Cruisers:
- (3) BBM (Space Yard Design)

BattleCruisers:
- (1) Captured & returning for Analyzing

Space Stations:
- (7) Space yard Bases
- (7) Antiproton Defence Bases


Technology:

Ship Con: 5
Propulsion: 4
Shields: 5
Sensors, Combat Support: 2
Stellar Harnessing: 1
Repair: 2
Armor: 3
Ship Capture: 1
Point Defence, Psychic Weapons: 3
Energy Stream: 5
----------------------
Score:

I'm currently in the lead by 6K points (299.0K points)


Heavy use of tactical Combat is required, and I've only lost one major battle. Most battles that actually get fought, I have a 5:1 advantage. Self Destruct Devices are really annoying at this point http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif (15% of ships are destroyed before losing their SDD, and every ship I capture is mangled beyond recognition.

----------------------------
PS. As a Pirate, I feel that I have a very good chance to win the game, having gained BattleCruisers (thanks to the drushocka)

Even without my planets, I would still be making a base 200 of each resource per turn. In fact, not having any planets would not have stopped me at all (after I got ship capture)

Having minimal resource production would have slowed me down, but not significantly. 90% of my army is refitted enemy ships anyways.

In fact I'm building my first Storm System Secret Base right now. That should expand my operations to the north-west area of the map. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 04 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Pretty good actually, I have control of about 5 systems (250 systems, 16 players), and have three colonies.

I've got two secret bases going up, one in a nebula, one in an asteroid belt.

Every AI has self-destruct devices & heavy shields, so I usually jump one or two of them with eight LC's.

I've been defeated twice, once by mines, and once by a fleet of equal size.

The mines incident destroyed my mobile space yard ship, and left the fleet crippled, but with two turns of repairs & some new recruits, they're waiting for a replacement SYS.

In the fleet battle, they had 4 LCs to my 7, and so I lost, destroying 2, and crippling a third (one component left). The main problem was my solo shield generators & weak weaponry (meson 2's VS AP 5's)

Life is a series of small victories with an occasional setback via Crushing Defeat.

Still waiting for a Crew converter to get researched. (what area is that under, anyways?)

[Nitram Draw]

Sounds cool. The secret bases are they a mod?

[DirectorTsaarx]

I think Crew Converter is a Psychic Weapon (I captured a Cue Cappa ship via Crew Insurrection Intel op, and they have Converters - worked out well, as my captured ship has captured another ship - I'm hoping to continue the trend...)

[Nitram Draw]

So how's it playing, Capt'n Hook?

[Suicide Junkie]

The secret bases are no mod, they're just space stations hidden in storm sectors, or (not so secretly) in asteroid fields.

Some of the mods that I did make:
A machine shop, much smaller than the original repair bay, but only does 1 component per turn. Good to fit on regular ships if you feel like it.
Ablative Armor. 5 Levels, 1Kt space, 6 to 15 Kt damage absorption. Note that shields provide 8 hitpoints per Kt at best. This is so that there is a point to armor in combat. You can either have shields, which regen after battle, are armor, which must be repaired slowly, but protects better.
Shields: the hitpoint values have been swapped from normal & phased. I figure, you can either have more hitpoints, OR block phased weapons. Its another tradeoff decision, that depends of what your enemy is doing. Shields also regenerate a token amout of shields during battle (5 points for Shield V) Its just for atmosphere, really, the only real effect is on the difficulty of ship capture.
I also spread shield regenerators out, so you get A new regenerator level every two shield tech levels, rather than all at the end.
I also boosted the output of Massive Planetary Shields, to 10,000, seeing as they were pretty useless as they were. I may even boost that higher, and make the ruins technology researchable, at the end of the tech tree.


For a humans vs Humans game, I would probably make bases have limited supply, and resupply depots more expensive, So solar panels are needed, (or resupply ships).

Just thought of another thing I did:
Supply storage: is now 5KT of space.
If you think about it, an engine stores the same amount of supply PLUS moves your ship. Supply storage should be smaller than an engine, rather than LARGER.

What I also want to do (when exams are over) is to add components for an organic race, such that most components have living Versions that will regenerate just like the armor. HaHa. Those Ion weapons won't slow me down for long http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Tachyon bLasters? One turn and the organic weapons are ba-aack http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Not sure what the disadvantage would be. Cost, maybe?

Crossover techs would be really cool. Such as organo-crystalline armor, that pumps up shields AND regenerates when destroyed.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 06 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

My home planet is not shielded or cloaked at all (I've had an average of 7000 research over 80 turns) I just have 5 Defence Stations & a fleet of 10LCs in orbit. Plus 50 missile/PDC/Spy sats

Mostly, alien ships don't return home to tell the tale of the pirate home system, but join my empire instead http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

The only classically "secret" thing I have is my hidden base in a nebula system. Once that is operational, I will have no further need for my home planet, except as for the (painfully slow) armor & psychic research. Everything else, I can steal.

One thing that a pirate race REALLY needs is a Tiny space yard for constructing hidden bases early on. Perhaps a 100KT SY, that builds 300KT /turn & repairs nothing. Then you could cram one on an escort (with two movement points) and get a hidden base going immediately.
With my low construction trait, i'd be getting a 150Kt rate, so It would take many years to finish a real construction base. But I could start early. Even with no planet, I could build capture ships, grab a colony, and be back in the research business.
As it is it took 80 turns before the aliens... I mean My empire http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif discovered Cruiser hulls.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 06 March 2001).]

[Windborne]

Hidden bases don't need to be in a nebula, armor four or five gives you camoflage armor that lets you cloak your ships before cloaking devices come Online and provides some defense too. Build space stations in astroid belts with remote miners on them, and cloak the ship, later scrap these and build base-ships so you don't have to worry about the astroid/planet your looting becoming strip mined and useless.

[WhiteHojo]

Suicide - you are the reincarnation of Blackbeard - sounds like you are doin w/pirates what I was attempting to do w/my 1st post - good job - maybe I can attempt this play style myself soon.

happy hunting

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Lupusman]

You can make a component using the ability 'Sector - Sight Obscuration' line. This basically hides everything, up to the level you want it to work. I've played around with it a little, and if a ship or base has a component like this, it can hide an entire planet. There's lots of stuff that can be done using this.

[Nitram Draw]

Cool! Hidden bases think of the possibilities!

[Lupusman]

It's more than just hidden bases. You can already do that with regular cloaking. With this, you can make a base that cloaks the entire planet.

[This message has been edited by Lupusman (edited 06 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Is anybody interested in getting my components & race file for Pirates?


With the sector- hiding ability, does it leave any indication, like a storm pic, or just empty space?
It could be really funny if you walked into a system, and saw no stars, or just one that was offset like a binary. Little do you know that there's two sphereworlds full of ships two squares away...

[Lupusman]

It hides planets, ships and bases, etc, but not storms, suns, or warp points. I'm pretty sure there are stars in the background so it looks just like normal space. I didn't even try ringworlds or spheres to see if that worked. It might hide it like all the other constructed things, or it might act like a sun, and not hide it.

[Nitram Draw]

I like the machine shop idea. Makes perfect sense for a pirate race.
What did you do with your original homeworld?
Can facilities be cloaked? If all facilities could be cloaked wou7ld the colony be invisible until the proper scanner was used? You really should have to search for pirates.

[WhiteHojo]

Suicide - I'd like to take a look at em if you don't mind - you're earlier Posts got my mind to wandering and I've come up w/some other potential pirate tech (none unbalancing, but more test/thinking need to be had)...

The only thing you didn't mention that I feel a pirate race might need (and that I'm toying with) a ScrapYard... a smaller space yard, say 100KT, that can't repair or build anything - but is based on the space yard component so it can be used to scrap and recover resources from captured ships.

I also like the machine shop & the mini space yard (low repair abilities and lower build rate than a norm SY) but I called it a Retro Yard - used to retrofit capture space hulls in the field. A rate of say 500/750/1000 for the 3 different levels...

ideas and comments always welcome

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 07 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

That scrap yard would provide the same abilities of the retro yard.

All you have to do is make a space yard that builds with 0 resources per turn.


The mini space yard was only really intended as a method of getting started on secret nebula-bases during the early years, since it won't require a cruiser hull, but only an escort hull (crammed), or a frigate hull (full movement), or destroyer (some defence)

It is clear to me that the first Ten years are most critical for a pirate race. They have to keep their homeworld alive & pumping research until they get ship capture. Then it's less critical, but still very important for retrofits, until you get cruisers around turn 80, and then can build secret bases by turn 100. A pirate racial trait that gives quick access to tiny space yards & basic ship capture would solve these problems, but until then its an epic struggle to capture the newest tech before you are overwhelmed.

-----------------
One thing that I have just recently added, is a bifurcation of the PD tech. Point defence Cannons, are kinetic-kill weapons, so they do good damage, but only at short range (2-4) PD lasers, do less damage (1/2), but extend out to range 4-8.

This works good, since you have to balance each type. Cannons defend you, lasers defend your fleet, but less powerfully.

Other than that, they are identical. I think I may link the cannons to DUC techs and the lasers to energy stream techs. Both will still require PD tech.

[edit]
The zip should contain:
-components.txt
-Facilities.txt (only the massive planetary shields changed)
-TechArea.txt (only a few increases of max levels)
-Pirate Alliance.emp Some basic settings for the Pirates. Anything thats not at its minimum value may be changed to your preferences, and you'll still be pirates.

Tell me if anything is missing/not working

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 07 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
That scrap yard would provide the same abilities of the retro yard.

All you have to do is make a space yard that builds with 0 resources per turn.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my thinking also - I played around and made one Last nite - based it on a SY - 100KT size, 1/4 the cost to build, no repair abilities & no build abilities. The concept is that it would be available early in the game and would be able to be placed on a small hull and taken to the front lines and used to rapidly recover resources from captured ships.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The mini space yard was only really intended as a method of getting started on secret nebula-bases during the early years, since it won't require a cruiser hull, but only an escort hull (crammed), or a frigate hull (full movement), or destroyer (some defence)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The mini space yard would be good in this early role but I kinda saw it as a component that is available after the retro yard. kind of cross b/t the retro yard and the full SY...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A pirate racial trait that gives quick access to tiny space yards & basic ship capture would solve these problems, but until then its an epic struggle to capture the newest tech before you are overwhelmed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this also, so I created a special tech area called Pirate Tech. Since this new are is not in the other AIs tech research files, they won't research it and thus won't be confused over the use of the specialized components that come out from this area. Actually, I just made my new components (your Machine Shop, Retro Yard, Refit yard, or small space yard if you will, and a small colony unit I'm toying around with) all require 2 tech abilities - ie. a machine shop needs level 1 in repair and level 1 in Pirate Tech...

The colony thing is just mind candy - thought about a small, slow moving limited cargo capacity, semi cheap colony ship only available to pirates - haven't thought it all the way through yet. Hull size of 150KT, 2 engine max, no cargo holds, colony unit size of 100kt that holds only 1M people...

thanks for the files - I'll look em over in the next couple of days.


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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't know about the colonies.

I'm thinking that pirates should not be expanding by colonizing planets, but by building scrap yard/ retrofit bases in the outlying systems.

Then you just take your ships to scrap for funds or retro for more capture ability.

If pirates start colonizing, then research gets too high & resource production gets high & then they can build their own ships with more advanced tech.

I would like a pirate race that has no need for planets after the first year or so.

[Nitram Draw]

It is very difficult to create a Pirate Race without some house rules for the human. The AI could be programmed to a degree but would be difficult to.
To exclude all the colony, mining, research and intel techs would require the entire current tech tree to be made a racial trait. Then each AI would have to be programmed to accept it.
You can design pirate facilities, weapons and such and make them a racial trait. When you choose to play a pirate you would restrict yourself to items on the main tech tree that were not available in the pirate trait.
I would love to play this type of race. It would be a great change from the normal game.

[WhiteHojo]

I shoulda been a little clearer - the pirate colony ship was meant to replace the normal colony ship - smaller size, lower cargo, slower speed should be a good handicap to the pirate race... I meant for the race to not use the normal large colony ships. A pirate race couldn't afford the subtraction of 45M population so the 1M that the smaller colonizer used would be more appropriate, the slower speed is meant to limit their expansion.

the only problem I have to figure out is how to program a race to NOT use the normal colonizers... also, I would like to be able to limit a pirate colony to only small or tiny planets - don't know how or even if it's possible to do this.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

If you don't want to depopulate, just use a standard colony ship and manually transfer 1M.

The point I'm trying to make is that pirates should not have ANY colonies.

In the game I'm playing, My homeworld has been producing more resources than I need. The two colonies just add to that.

Only recently have I run low. Since I recently got Crew converters, and I'm trying to retrofit 60 ships.
After running out of minerals, I started trading with the other races, but now I'm out of organics & radioactives too. I've actually had to capture ships for scrap, and I get just over one ship retroed for each scrap ship.

IMO, pirates should not be using planetary-made resources like this. Scrapping should be important, so therefore no colonies should be allowed. Captured Colony ships provide 100% of my new colonies (so far, 100 turns in, thats two colonies & one on the way after repairs)

I am in 1st place, with higher tech than anybody else and haven't built a single colony ship! I control 3 planets and one colony ship.

It is my firm belief that (human) pirates do not need, and should not have colony tech in any way shape or form. Colony Captures are unavoidable, but acceptable.

-----------------
How did I get first in tech levels with only 10,000 research points you ask?
Simple - everybody else researched different tech areas, and I stole 'em all.

[WhiteHojo]

I agree w/you on the point that pirates should get their research & resources from capturing ships. However, w/o a small at least, colony base building intell centers any race that specializes in intell ops would be able to cause quite a bit of havok.

One could simply manually limit oneself to only loading 1M colonist, not placing more than 2 engines on a colony ship or by manually not moving a colony ship more than 2 engines movement worth per turn but to me, it's more fun to have a specific colony ship type for pirates that are designed to behave in the manner I want it to. A self imposed limit (I wish I knew of some way to program the limitation into the component) on colonization I would use is to only colonize tiny or small planets (actually leaning toward only tiny - moons, etc). this, to me, would help prevent any overexpansion (pop wise) of the race while providing a small core of planets to build intell centers on.

just my 2 cents worth - feedback is always helpfull.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

Perhaps it would be better to just give the pirate race a huge intel bonus (eg. +400%)

But anyways, Intel I is a 100,000 point tech, and with 5000 research, and ship capture to research, Intel can't be a priority.

Maybe only allow defensive Intel projects, but give the pirates a bonus of 50,000 Intel points /turn as a racial trait.


I just turned off intel, the simplest solution.

[WhiteHojo]

Opps - double posted - erased this one

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

Turning off intell chops a favorite leg out of the game (at least for me)...

You make sense about the cost of intellegence being a little prohibitive to the pirate race. So we need a way for the pirates to be competitive (or at least able to give some kind of a defense to intell attacks) in the intell area w/o hampering the other races.

As I said earlier, I made a special tech area for Pirates called Pirate Tech (my imagination is a little slow). This new tech area allows for the creation of special pirate techs w/o having to worry bout the other races getting corrupted w/em - since they never research PT they will not get the special components.

I made the PT a 5000 cost increment. This should keep all the spec comp'nts w/in reach of the race w/o making em free. Stuck it under theroreticall scienses, and put a max of 5 on it.

At level PT lvl 1 - you get the Machine Shop if you have repair lvl 1 w/improvements when you reach repair lvl 2 & 3... you wld get the RetroFit Yard (a 100KT SY w/no build or repair ablitiies - only recovery of scrap resources for early game)... you get the Pirate Intell Center I (which I created to give the pirates a fighting chance in the intell war) which gen's 500 intell points along w/the intell project Pirate Counter Intell I(no other intell projects are available - this is only to allow the pirates to run counter intell projects)...also a smaller pirate colony component & smaller pirate colony ship - want to find a way to make these the only colony options for the pirate race but outside of having the human simply agree not to use any other I can't figure it out.

At PT lvl 2 - you get Pirate Intell center II w/Pirate counter intell II, a small SY (200Kt size w/reduced build rate - the Pirate SY II & III wld be given when you reached SY tech II & III)

At PT lvl 3 - you get Pirate Intell center III w/Pirate counter intell III

I believe at med tech cost the research cost is 5000, 10000, 22500 for the 3 levels - much cheaper than the intell field but w/less intell options (no offensive projects or data gathering ones)

I would preferr to make all of the above available in a racial trait instead of the added tech area but I don't know how to mod that.

feedback?

ps - hope ya'll don't mind my bouncing these ideas around in this thread but all the feedback is very helpfull

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Do you have a good reason why Pirates should be colonizing? (aside from technical issues like intel)

It may not be obvious, but I really don't think Pirates should be building colony ships. The few colony ships that they can capture (but not retrofit) will be plenty IMO, allowing a minimal expansion, though I would prefer to reduce that even more. I have averaged one new planet every 25 turns (counting my homeworld) and have scrapped/analysed/destroyed twice that.

My military is over 5x larger than my neighbors, considering that 90% of my ships are captured, and i have 50% build rate. I did that with only my homeworld producing resources. Colonies would make the pirates too powerful for human players to use.

--------------------------------------

How about increasing the output of the pirate Intel facility, to maybe 2000.

The pirates are only gonna have one world for the first 5 years or so, which will balance that out. (if they don't get colony tech)

----------------------------------------

Is it possible to have a racial trait give a fixed rate intel bonus? (ie. X points per turn)

[Nitram Draw]

Pirates just gotta have a base. Where else can you bury your treasure http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I've got some basic Pirate buildings made. I could e-mail them to you for your modification. My thoughts were to give them some new buildings that were cheap and performed a lot of functions so that you wouldn't be tempted to build the regular types.
Creating a whole tech tree is a pain though. More than I can do in a reasonable time.
I have created some special techs and the Pirate racial trait ( I'm as imaginative as you are http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I'll be glad to give my ieas to someone who has a little more know how than me. Just my ideas and I have never tested them.

[WhiteHojo]

Nitram - thanks for the offer - and send me your info at WhiteHojo@hotmail.com and I'll see if I can use it... And I agree w/ya - a pirate w/o a base is just a roving nomad and not a pirate. All that looting and plundering takes alot out of a mate, and you need a home colony to return to (this ain't waterworld)-

As far as having a good reason to be colonizing - yep - cause they gotta expand like any other race or as you point out, more pragmatically they need someway to have a chance in the intell buisness. Unless you just disable the intell option as you did, you need the colonies for the intell centers if nothing else.

If the fear is that they'd be too powerfull w/colonies - sounds like they're too powerfull w/o em so the answer should be to reconfigure them to be not so unbalanced. Give em more penalties, etc.

Also, I can't understand what your objection is to colonies as a game issue (any personal bias not coming into play)? I envision pirate colonies to be on tiny or small planets (limits facilities to 6 to 12 per breathable planet and 1 to 2 fac'lts per nonbreathable) then filling em w/intell centers to use counter intel... no mining/farming/radcollection facilities...

My feeling is a race should expand at some rate, slow for the pirates in my opinion.

I haven't play tested any of these new components yet so I can't really give a informed opinion on their effect and the overall effectiveness of the pirate race as I envision it.

The larger intell output would be required if you severly limited the races expansion (and by limiting it to 1 home planet, that's pretty dang severe) - I'd have to test it out first i suppose

As far as racial traits - I've toyed around w/em but haven't really figured it out - I'll keep fidgetting w/it and let ya know - keep me posted of your findings - thanks

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Creating a whole tech tree is a pain though. More than I can do in a reasonable time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My tech tree and related components didn't take that much time or effort - the components were just modified from existing ones w/the addition of a 2nd required tech (pirate tech) to discover em. Was alot easier to do than I thought it would be and didn't take as much time as you might think... you ought to give it a try.




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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

How about a compromise on the colony issue, just have pirates only be allowed to colonize only the small moons nothing bigger then say tiny and/or small. Pirates really didn't have countrie per sae, Which brings up another issue. What about atmosphere? what would/should they breathe? As for intell what if before you could use against them you first have to find one of the planets or hidden bases? You could only use against them as long as you have a location of the base or planet. Once it was destroyed or captured you wouldn't be able to again to another one is found? Pirates were not easy to find so intell should not be that easy to use against them until they are found. If you use planets you should also use specal bases for the rest. just some ideas. Mac

[WhiteHojo]

mac, your idea of only colonizing tiny/small moons is almost the same as what I had in mind. I don't see pirates inhabiting med or large or huge sized planets. The small easily ignored moons to me are ideal for pirates.

As for atmosphere - I liked suicides original idea of choosing "none" for the atmos - just seems like a true choice - also makes the moons a logical colony/base target.

Your idea of limiting the ability of other races to use intell vs. a pirate race sounds interesting but I don't know of any way to mod that - I think that would have to be changed in the games program. I like the idea of it though - kinda like having a empire loose contact w/a pirate race unless it is contact w/one of their ships(can see it & can only deal w/the race so long as it can view one of its ships) or knows where one of their bases are (& if that base is destroyed, the empire looses contact w/the race)



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My feeling is a race should expand at some rate, slow for the pirates in my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. But the pirates already expand fairly fast by capturing colony ships.

I also consider the outlying secret bases as a major expansion of my empire. Basically without intel to worry about, those bases have more value to me than a planet.

I could have had 8 planets already, which is more than a number of races have, and I would still be winning even if somebody glassed every one of my planets.

Heck, even if my sun went nova, taking out half my fleet & all my planets, I'd still come back because of my hidden bases & outlying fleets (& zero maintenance). Just using captured ships retroed at my secret bases from now on would be enough for me to win.

What I'm saying is that playing Pirates without colony abilities, and having super-powerful intel centers for the homeworld, would make it reasonably fair.

If we ever get the ability to have an intel producer on a station, then even the homeworld would be only a minor advantage after the station intel goes up.

All assuming Pirates don't get offensive intel.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 08 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

Truthfully, I had forgotten about your secret bases (guess cause they wuz secret). That might make some difference - if a starbase could ever generate intell points, I wouldn't have as big a problem as I do now.

I would think a self imposed limit on the rate of your colonization would be needed - the slower, smaller pop pirate colonizer would help limit it... maybe if we could deny the normal colony component to pirates and force em to use the smaller/slower component and then bump the cost to build em way up that would limit their expansion while still allowin em the capability to be competitve in the intell buisness.

Forgot to mention earlier, I don't see pirates taking over and keeping other races colonies - just not what they're about in my mind... maybe allowing em to capture then plunder & loot (scrap all facilities) a colony b/f jettisoning the pop and abandoning the colony. A little harsh but w/in the races persona.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

I think you could get around the colony problem by starting the game with only colonize your home planet type and only colonize planet with breathable atmosphere. Then pick none as you atmoshpere. Rock as your type. This should yield a lot of moons for bases.
Any colony ships captured should have their cargo jettisoned in the true pirate fashion, walk the plank you scurvy bastards!
I'm gonna find the time top play this race I swear it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[WhiteHojo]

forgot to mention in Last post and Nitram brought it up in his - all captured colony ships should be scrapped and there cargo jettisoned - aaaaaarrrrrr ye matey!!!

------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

SJ, bases are only hidden until found or the tech is found in order to find them. I suggested a compromise, this way both ideas are incorporated into the game. They are both great ideas we just have to figure the best way to use them. Pirates really had excellent intell on their targets, therefore they should have high intell in game, but there should be way to also combat this if and when you obtain the tech to do so. What about ships? Pirates were fast, quick and deadly, very rare did they have large warships like ships-of-the-line, etc, maybe limit them to only having capacity to build
nothing larger then BC's or BB's, no dreadnaughts or baseships. They would have to capture one in order to have it. they should also have high cunnning, violent, untrustworthy traits. Deal with them but don't trust them. they will bite the hand that feeds them. Just some ideas, I think this Pirate idea is one of the best. I just hope it all comes together. I think it would really add something extra to the game

mac

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>capture then plunder & loot (scrap all facilities) a colony b/f jettisoning the pop and abandoning the colony<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All we need for that is to set the resource production of the pirates low enough (25% anyone?) so that the pirates would get more resources by scrapping the facilities than by letting them run until the AI glassed the planet.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't see pirates taking over and keeping other races colonies - just not what they're about in my mind<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neither do I, but I really don't see them sending out their own settlements.
I mean, why would they bother building their own colony ships, when they can capture pre-built ships for free?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would think a self imposed limit on the rate of your colonization would be needed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you have to capture colony ships to start colonies, thats a pretty good limit, IMO. It's not like they're excessivly rare or well defended, but they can't be built every two turns either (every turn on E-build & full, jubilant pop).

[WhiteHojo]

Mac - are you pyshic??? I at one point was thinking about limiting em to LC or Cruiser sized hulls but didn't follow up - easily sidetracked I guess.

They would have to be able to design a ship of larger than C size so as to be able to retrofit it after being captured but I agree they shouldn't be able to build large ships from the ground up... Of course, if you are capturing BBs etc then why would you want to waste your time building em.

anybody else have any thoughts on this???

------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

Wow. A lot of simultaneous Posts.

As for building big ships,

in my game, 50% build rate, even at my homeworld it takes 2 years to build a BC, and I could capture one from the drushocka in two turns, and have it back and retrofitted in 1/4th the time. Plus once I'm in their system, I'll probably cap two or three in a row before they amass a fleet to drive me away.

Theres no way I'm gonna build one on my own. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>SJ, bases are only hidden until found or the tech is found in order to find them<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats true http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif, but by the time anybody has super sensors, I'll have them too, and my bases will have MassiveMount deathrays with 250 missile sats spread around.

{by 'deathray' I mean I'll have whatever the best beam tech the enemies have come out with so far http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif}

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
IIRC you are playing with no maintenance. I think pirates should pay at least normal maintenance, tough to get parts, or at best 5-10% less. This would give them an incentive to keep the fleets small but powerful.
In a Last man standing game the Pirates really should not be able to win but they should be fun to play http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Don't know how you could get a Pirate victory if no one wins? Have to look at the victory conditions a little closer, I always play Last man standing like the rest of the players seem to do.

[Suicide Junkie]

Normal maintenance would hurt bad. I'd be scrapping 5% of my fleet per turn just to maintain 'em.

Consider that I generate 7000 minerals per turn, and have to support 40 LCs to maintain control of my 4 systems. I have an alien race right beside me, who really likes large fleets, but may be a neutral.

[mac5732]

SJ In your game, have you tried taking another player and fighting against an AI controlled pirate yet? If so how did that come out? Maybe that would give us some ideas as to what to use or not. Also what if we took some of the various ideas and make some of them options? that way you could play them with the different ideas and see which ones worked or didn't work, or for each persons personal preferences. just an idea or two. mac

[mac5732]

From reading the different ideas, i think we need to first decide.
1. should the pirates have a chance to win the game or just be a fun playing pain in the neck race. if they are to have chance to win, what amount or same as other races
2. Should they be allowed to colonize or just capture planets in order to have a chance in the game.
3. playability, maybe some ideas should be made options that way everyone could pick which way they want to set it up and would the AI be able to play the pirate race without to much tweaking of game?
4. What should their largest ship size be?
Definitly nothing larger then a BB or BC
5. what should they be allowed to research?
6. Racial traits. such as Berserker, violent, schemers, high intell, high cunning, and the percentages. Also should they start with hi intel or research it,
7. What type of bases, small, med, large,
and what type of cloaking should they have?
8. do they get special (their race only) research areas, weapons, clocking, etc)
9. Will they be allowed to use captured population to colonize other planets?
Maybe hojo and/or SJ could make up a list and have everyone vote or give ideas on these or others you can think of. This could give us a starting point. Just some idea's
10. I forgot, maintenance,
mac
sorry about the double post, i over clicked

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 09 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, IMO,

1) Yes. a reasonable chance to win, (but AI's would really screw up and lose every time I'm sure)

2) only captured colony ships for me. I believe that the pirates should not need a planet to survive.

3)AI is really not flexible and I seriously doubt that anybody could get them to play decently as Pirates (even MM). Against a human, the Human would glass their planets & only use large fleets. The Strategic capture routines are tough, too.

4) With 50% construction rate, I find that it is not worth a Pirate's time to build even LCs. Allowing full sizes of hull does not mean the pirates will build them. I find LCs take over a year to build.

5) Pirates should be allowed to research all the normal techs (mainly by theft) plus any special techs they are given.

6) Research 50%
Intel 500% if possible
Mineral/organic/radioactives 25% if possible
0% or 1% maintenance (requires Merchants w/o modding)
Bloodthirsty would make sense.
Construction rate 50%
Reproduction 91% (minimum)
Environment resist 50% (minimum)

Everything else is optional.

7) All bases, normal cloaking. Space stations take 1&1/2 years to build, so a Starbase sized place in unlikely but possible.

8) Pirates need only early ship capture, & early mobile space yards.
Perhaps just a new hull that's 550KT, requires 50% construction components. (ie escort plus ShipYard) available right away, like a colony ship for everybody else.

9) Yes. How would you stop them from using slaves?

10) As in (6), zero to one percent would be good.


Pirates require a somewhat disorganized military to feed off of. Humans would be nearly impossible to Pirate against, especially by an AI.

-----------------------------
Note: there is an option (check box) in the "edit" mode to delete your extra post.

[mac5732]

SJ, if it takes that long to build a LC and the pirates use capture to increase their fleet wouldn't we have to start them off with at least 4-5 ships or more, with capture tech in order to increase their fleet? Otherwise I don't see how they would be able to keep up in the very beginning as far as ship go. They should also have starting tech in order to scan the ships to see which ones were colony ships. Some players use Ca's and others instead of the colony ship design. As far as what Whojo and I were talking about only colonizing the tiny/small planets only, what if you used them as bases only with say limited 50-100 pop. These could be used as quick in system bases until they could build a base. just an idea. I know the AI is limited, i've been a wargamer since the 8th grade both board and computer and AI design & programing need work but it would be nice to be able to play both pirate and against them as well. Oh well, we can only try..
just some ideas. Mac
pirate race looking better all the time

[Suicide Junkie]

Let me tell you of my first years as a pirate:

It was a dark and stormy turn...

First think I built was a spacestation with a Space Yard.
First thing I researched with my 100k points was The military science required for Ship Capture.

After four turns, I had a pair of escorts retrofitted with ship capture and some wimpy little gun.

Immediately, I sent them out and captured two enemy ships (escort & frigate)

Analysing both, I got Frigates & AP Is.

Now, I changed my homeplanet & orbital factory over to frigate production (1/2 year)

Repeated captures with my escorts got me frigates that I could convert to capture ships.

Then it snowballed, as the drushocka showed up with LCs, basic Shields, some other guys with APBs and no shields, and I captured all those techs. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifThank-you come again http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basically, I got ship con. From the drushocka, APBs from these silver aliens, Shields from the drushocka, and Engines from the yellow guys with the Shard cannons. I've also got missile tech from these blue aliens, but I don't use it.

Combining all these stolen tech areas gives me the highest number of tech levels in the game so far http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[jc173]

I can understand pirates not having full fledged colonies, but how are you resupplying your ships?

JC

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
From reading the different ideas, i think we need to first decide.
1. should the pirates have a chance to win the game or just be a fun playing pain in the neck race. if they are to have chance to win, what amount or same as other races
2. Should they be allowed to colonize or just capture planets in order to have a chance in the game.
3. playability, maybe some ideas should be made options that way everyone could pick which way they want to set it up and would the AI be able to play the pirate race without to much tweaking of game?
4. What should their largest ship size be?
Definitly nothing larger then a BB or BC
5. what should they be allowed to research?
6. Racial traits. such as Berserker, violent, schemers, high intell, high cunning, and the percentages. Also should they start with hi intel or research it,
7. What type of bases, small, med, large,
and what type of cloaking should they have?
8. do they get special (their race only) research areas, weapons, clocking, etc)
9. Will they be allowed to use captured population to colonize other planets?
Maybe hojo and/or SJ could make up a list and have everyone vote or give ideas on these or others you can think of. This could give us a starting point. Just some idea's
10. I forgot, maintenance,
mac
sorry about the double post, i over clicked

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 09 March 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here's the Hojo 2 cents worth - and I think it's overpriced at that...

1) When a human plays any race that race will always have a chance to win the game - even playing a neutral or a limited pirate, a human will find a way to win.

I should state up front that I agree w/SJ in that I am not too confident that a Pirate race could be Modded to be a viable computer controlled race - too many problems, the AI's inability to perform ship capture comes to mind for one. I'm prefacing all my answers and commentary to the idea that the pirate race will be controlled by a human.

2) I think (and this is where me and SJ seem to disagree the most) that a pirate race should colonize, but at a very slow rate w/severe handicaps, such as colony ships that only hold 1M colonist, can only have 2 engines on the colony ship, can't have any cargo or supply containers (limits their range), should only be able to colonize Tiny Moons (maybe Small also but I'm waffling on that one), etc.
A pirate should NEVER use captured colony ships to colonize new planets - just don't seem right to me - to me, the proper pirate reaction to capturing a colony ship is jettison the pop and analyze the hull for tech or scrap it for resources.

3) the playability, meaning to me the initial setup of the race along w/any special components designed specifically for pirates, is the most important and probably critical point in playing a Pirate race. SJ has some good ideas and so does Mac about initial setup - to me, the Maint point is a very import'nt area cause as SJ points out a pirate race doesn't have the resource income to support an even small sized fleet. The other areas will have to be delved into as we go along. I've just started a game as a pirate w/50% Reas, 50% Ground combat (don't think pirates should be strong infantry type fighters - more a skirmer mentality than a full organized infantry ground combat thing), 100% intell, 50% Resources (the min), 91% Reprod (min also), 125% Attack & Defense, Nat Merchant, Prop expert & Psyc traits - I can't remember all settings right now but I did have something like 1875/5000 left. Started on bad homeworld in large system (150) w/18 total races all hand picked. So far around 60 turns into it, it is fairly slow and tough going. I'll post on it later this weekend hopefully.

4) Largest Ship size - agree w/SJ, it's easier to capture one than to build - basically I can't think of any reason to BUILD anything larger than a LC - esp w/the use of mine & SJ's smaller Pirate Ship Yard Component idea (I use one that is 200kt, and build at a rate of 500,750,1000 for it's 3 levels.)

5) they should have access to all the tech that a normal race has access to (along w/the special Pirate Tech I use to grant access to their special pirate components)

6) Racial traits go back to playability to me - we probably need a whole new thread just to discuss this point - I select nuetral for culture type instead of trying to fit it into beserker, worker, scientist, etc. As far as Happiness type and Demeanor I support Bloodthirsty and Violent...

7) Cloaking and BAses - access to all

8) I'm in favor a special racial trait for pirates granting em access to special tech (unfortunately I don't know how to mod that, so I simply created a special tech area and didn't include it in any of the other computer players research data files)

9) As I said earlier, I am strongly against letting a pirate race use a captured colony population to colonize a planet...

10) Maint - to me it needs more play testing to find out the effect it has on the pirate race as a playable and balanced race...

hope this hasn't run on too long but I felt I needed to throw in my opinions...

feedback as always is requested...



------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

Thanks for asking http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Resupply has been accomplished in three ways:

1) Theft. My fleet captures a ship, which the AI keeps fully supplied. He then graciously shares said supplies with my ships, before being sent to the homeworld to be scrapped/analysed/retrofitted

2) Transfer from homeworld. Every retrofitted ship gets full supplies when it returns for the operation. Returning to the fleet supplies the fleet. Occasionally, a large fraction of the fleet will return home for supplies, and regular ships need upgrades every now and then.

3) Supply pods
With the New tech graciously supplied by the yellow crystal aliens, Supply ships have come into service. These hold 2 Resupply pods (4000 supplies), and repair bays, which fix the pods each turn. This easily maintains the fleets, which can now retrofit alien ships on their own, due to the doozer construction ships that have been sent.

----------------------------
Revelation for Pirates intel problem

THE INTEL PROBLEM IS NO MORE!

the simple solution to any intel woes is to abandon all your planets.

With no path to your planets (since you have none) other players will lose contact with you, preventing intel ops!

Booyah!

Since my pirates need no planets to survive, we're all set once we have a defended, hidden base.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok: on the Pirate colony issue:

1) Pirates should be able to build their own colony ships only.

2) Pirates Should be able to use captured enemy colony ships only.

3) BOTH!

4) NEITHER!

-------------------------

#4 is clearly not a viable option
#3 is built in to SE
#2 is my opinion
#1 is going to be very hard to mod. (ie. impossible)

My view: Think of pirates on earth. A colony in the new world is wanted.
Pirates aren't going to be setting up colonies in the new world, since they just can't organize anything major like that, and provide supplies & money.

But if they happened to come upon one of England's colonization fleets, and captured them, the pirates would have everything they needed.

Of course, the colony they created would tend to be an easy target (no large country backing them up) and they'd be nuked to glass after a few turns.

Sorry for mixing Modern & historical like that wooden fort/city getting nuked http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

The problem with implementing 'pirates' as opposed to 'nomads' is that detection and identification are much too simple and easy in SE IV. In RL, pirates rely on the ability to avoid detection and to pass themselves off as 'civilians' - or at least someone else - when they cannot avoid contact. In SE, you can see EVERYTHING in a system when you enter it unless it is cloaked, and if you get the right sensors you can STILL see everything in a system. There is no range effect on sensors, and there is no 'percentage' chance to see something or not. If it's there, you can see it. If sensors were changed to have a definite RANGE like 'long range scanners' then the pirate races would be much more viable.

But even then, identification is too easy. There is no such thing as 'disguise' and there is no representation of 'civilian' traffic in SE IV. When you see a ship, EVEN a captured ship originally built by another race, you automatically know who controls it. This also ought to be changed to allow 'pirate' races to exist. There should be some way to make your ship seem to be controlled by the original race which built it if pirates are to be a success.

Both of these problems are much reduced with a merely 'nomadic' race. Add the ability to have components which generate research and intelligence, and a "habitat" ability that lets population grow while residing in a ship/base component, and you could have a fairly useful nomadic race even with the current very simply system of detection and identification in SE IV.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 09 March 2001).]

[Marty Ward]

I think Pirates should not build colonies but the should build bases. Pirates always operated from a base and I've never heard of a Pirate nation.
I think tiny or small planets should be used as these bases. Special buildings that have multiple functions just for pirates. Cloaking the planet is a must. Pirates should have to be found. Maybe they could be cloaked like mines but only to level 4.
I don't think a Pirate could win in a hotseat or PBEM game so they should count it as a victory if they survive a set number of turns, 400-500 maybe?
I think the AI could never be a Pirate.
I gonna give it a try this week with some ideas I have. I'll post back.
There seems to be a lot of people trying this idea out. We should be able to get a new race out of this somehow http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

[jc173]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Thanks for asking http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not a problem I was curious about starting my own pirate game, always wanted to yell out away all boarding parties http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:

Resupply has been accomplished in three ways:

1) Theft. My fleet captures a ship, which the AI keeps fully supplied. He then graciously shares said supplies with my ships, before being sent to the homeworld to be scrapped/analysed/retrofitted

2) Transfer from homeworld. Every retrofitted ship gets full supplies when it returns for the operation. Returning to the fleet supplies the fleet. Occasionally, a large fraction of the fleet will return home for supplies, and regular ships need upgrades every now and then.

3) Supply pods
With the New tech graciously supplied by the yellow crystal aliens, Supply ships have come into service. These hold 2 Resupply pods (4000 supplies), and repair bays, which fix the pods each turn. This easily maintains the fleets, which can now retrofit alien ships on their own, due to the doozer construction ships that have been sent.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this limit you to kind of a small area of operations? Seems like you would need to wait for an alien race to sort of blunder over your initial start area before you could really get into action. It's too bad we can't build facilities on asteroids since the asteroid pirate hideout seems to crop in sci-fi novels etc quite a bit. I agree pirates shouldn't be colonizing much if at all, but the idea of hidden supply bases on moons or asteroids would have been interesting. Maybe even one pirate haven, the homeworld with minor intel facilities etc, although it should be possible to build a ship/base intel component.

[capnq]

An example of a pirate nation would be the Barbary Coast of Algeria. A U.S. anti-piracy campaign there is what the "shores of Tripoli" line from the Marine Hymn is referring to.

------------------
Cap'n Q

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does this limit you to kind of a small area of operations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It sure does. For the first while, you are going to be limited to a three-or four system maximum range.
Note: once your ships get out there & capture a ship, its OK if they run out of supplies on the way home. You can resupply them with another ship, or bring in a SYS to analyse and scrap.

[quoye]Seems like you would need to wait for an alien race to sort of blunder over your initial start area before you could really get into action.[/quote]
In the 100-system game I started, there were three races within 3 systems from me (15 races total). In a 250 system game, you have to travel much farther, but that's what 5kT supply storage pods are for.

PS. Please don't tell me you still have engines that store more supplies than a box of supplies the same size!?!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's too bad we can't build facilities on asteroids since the asteroid pirate hideout seems to crop in sci-fi novels etc quite a bit. I agree pirates shouldn't be colonizing much if at all, but the idea of hidden supply bases on moons or asteroids would have been interesting. Maybe even one pirate haven, the homeworld with minor intel facilities etc, although it should be possible to build a ship/base intel component.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hidden supply bases, are merely space stations with a cloak or in a storm system. By fleeting with the base, you get resupplied, and the base probably has a construction component for repairs/retrofits/analysing/scrapping, so you don't need a planet out there. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifIf you also put your base in a shield-depleting storm, you can whomp on the helpless attack ships' hulls with armored ships http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thing is, you don't really need intel to survive as a pirate. If you have no planets, then the other players can't make contact with you, and you are impervious to intel.

[Marty Ward]

Been messing around with the Pirates Last night. I agree that full maintenance is to big of a handicap but zero is to big of an advantage. 10-15% seems right. It makes you choose between either Big ships/ low numbers or small ships/ higher numbers in your fleets. I have been playing the later. So far I can take on 3-4 cruisers but larger fleets than that usually spank me pretty good. I haven't built anything larger than a BC and I only built one due to the cost and time. My self imposed ship size limit is BB.
I have played like I think a pirate should, only colonizing tiny and small planet of the home type, ice. No trade, no treaty, capture, analyize and scrap any ships. Have added a few special items but still need to work out the bugs. It's working great. I think with a tech tree for Pirates it is a great addition to SE4.
Victory is very difficult with the current point scoring system. Points are gained through expansion and colonization, two thing I feel Pirates don't care to much about, give me the cash! I'm not the best player but I ain't the worst, altough in my game I am Last. If they victory points could be changed then Pirates and Nomads could actually win. If you received points for each ship captured or detroyed and this was scaleable, i.e. Pirates get 1000 points for each captured ship while standard races got 10 for example, and you got points for each game turn you survived, same way, then Pirates and Nomads could play true to style and have a real chance of winning any game except winner take all. I don't know if the victory conditions will be changed, the suggestions for hard code changes is quite large and this request would probably be far down the list.


[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 10 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Perhaps 5% maintenance would be better, you could trade merchants for warriors, or something to boost your ships' attack/defence even more, while still having low enough maintenance to keep up with the pack, and have a chance to win.

With all the sneakyness of a human, you should at least be able to manage 3rd or 5th place, more than halfway up the rankings.

[Marty Ward]

I think if you were a Pirate in a game with all humans just surviving would be a challange and surviving 100-200 turns after being discovered should be a victory!
5% might be enough, just enough to keep you from massing a huge fleet but not so high that you HAD to colonize to keep a small fleet in being. To bad there are no leader units in the game. Pirate captain bonuses would be great!

[mac5732]

SJ, in your game after you built your space station and yard, did you expand outward into other systems if so did you build hidden bases or what and where? Do you think the ship capture is to easy or leave as is? I was wondering on re-supply, that's why I thought pirates could at least colonize tiny/small moons as supply bases sounds like you have problem solved. What tech did you start with in your game?

WHojo, From what I see your topic has the highest interest, seems like everyone wants to be a pirate.. "shiver me timber". With everyone contributing, we should be able to come up with one heck of a pirate race.

I agree with the bloodthirsty, violent traits, what about diplomacy? Should it be made easier or leave as is? Sj did you have any problems with Diplomacy with the other races? Or did you just like loot, pillage, and be gone.. Did you use cunning or schemer as part of your traits. How about you WHoJo
hows yours going?? Just curious
mac

As far was winning by points, My opinion only, is that I like playing game out until I either know I'm going to win or lose. Pirates should be a challenge for Human, that's what makes it fun. If you win to easily by points I think it would take away from the game, just my 3 cents worth..

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 11 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

I have two secret bases in nebulas, which are not really being used anymore. They're more as backup, and make occasional ships to add to my fleets. What I use more, is CRs with spaceyards in the fleets. That way, I get to analyse the tech right away & can retro & repair without leaving the prime territory.

I've mainly switched to semi-autonomous fleets that can rove around and penetrate deeply into my "host"'s territory.

Headaches that have come up for my pirates have been:
-Shields (I take a lot of damage when having to tear down 750 shields before capping)
-SelfDestruct (15% of ships are no longer capturable, since the SDD is the Last component remaining. Also, and ships that are captured are heavily damaged & tech is often lost. My recent aquisition of Psychic Crew converters had allieviated these two problems
-Minefields. Really sucks when your fleet goes through the wormhole to prey on colonies, when the next thing you know, every ship is crippled beyond belief & the repair ship was killed.
Nobody has been kind enough to build me a minesweeper ship, either.


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 11 March 2001).]

[Sirkit]

Would anyone mind explaining to me how to get the pirate race? mod, or just messing with the stats?? Explain for us not really in the mood to read 105 Posts http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Sirkit]

Would anyone mind explaining to me how to get the pirate race? mod, or just messing with the stats?? Explain for us not really in the mood to read 105 Posts http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Sirkit]

Would anyone mind explaining to me how to get the pirate race? mod, or just messing with the stats?? Explain for us not really in the mood to read 105 Posts http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Sirkit]

I apoligize for the annoying triple post thing, not intentional hit the button too many times http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[WhiteHojo]

Well, the Corsair Race had it's initial run this weekend - didn't have as much time to spend on it as I wanted but such is life.

Here are a few of my observations along w/some Qs for the group:

Started the race in a large galaxy (150 systems) on 1 world that was set to poor. Total of 18 races... could only view my own score (believe it or not this makes it more difficult than I thought it would - sucks not knowing what the race you're about to attack has)... all races set to high diff... med bonus... no neutrals...

the Corsairs (to the best of my recollection) had Nat Merch (no space port needed), Pys Tech, Prop exprt, min settings on ground combat, research, reproduction, all resource production & trade... max'd on ship att & ship def, & ship maintence and breathed none on rock...

race had a special Pirate tech that gives access to Machine Shop 1,2,3 (50kt that repairs 1,2,3), Pirate Space Yard 1,2,3 (200kt that builds at 500,750,1000), RetroYard (100kt space yard that doesn't build or repair - only allows the recovery of res from scrapped ships - a rather failed experiment), Pirate Intell center 1,2,3 (produces 1000,1500,2000 intell points), Pirate counter intell 1,2,3 (the only intell project that the Pirate Intell Centr can run w/o researching normal Intell), a Pirate colony ship (150kt hull w/2 engin max) & a pirate rock colony pod (100kt comp w/max cap of 1M)...

Started the game smack in the midd of the map on a small world w/no res above 85% - very little production goin on.

Built a scout ship & did a little exploration. This is where I ran into my 1st role playing test & I'm ashamed to say I failed - found a large rock planet w/no atmo that had 2 tiny moons w/no atmo - ashamed to say I moved my homeworld here - limited my self to building 3 min res mininers 1 org & 1 rad, 1 resup & 1 const - the rest was research & intell...

Anyway, after finding this home (took a VERRRY long time to colonize those 3 planets) I stopped colonizing. Built some Des sized Const Yard Ships, found acouple of systems w/storms and built pirate bases (500kt spaceyard w/pirate SY comp & some wpns - later put stealth armor on it to try to hide it) also built a few remote mining stations (500kt space station w/2 min & 1 each of org/rad) - researched like mad till I got ship capture (tech started on low w/med cost)... then I built some Des sized boarding ships and went a pirating...

found the Darlocks, captured a few - lost all to a dang minefield - built another fleet w/boarding, supply, repair & SY ships - and went in other direction - found a race w/PPBs captured much tech from them - lost a couple of fleets but am slowly making headway -

Played 175 or so turns and moved from Last to high of 8th... It's great fun and alot more difficult than I thought it would be.

the other roleplaying decision I was torn on is whether or not to accpt a races trade & research treaties (anything above that I flat out refused) - I sat back and thought what would a good pirate king do???

I accepted the treaties, of course... at least until I was unable to locate any enemy ships then I'd turn on the partner - brought a rather guilty feeling of pleasure to pounce on the unsuspecting ships of suppossed alies...

Found that once I'd captured the tech level for shield depleting wpn - life as a pirate was MUCH easier -no more slugging it out waiting for those shield to colapse. Also, putting a PPB on each boarding ship helped in those battles where I was outnumbered and obviously couldn't capture them all. Stealth armor was the defense of choice - either captured or researched to Stealth lvl 2 armor - better than shields in my opinion (for the pirate anyway)...

Gotta go - will check back later w/more thoughts... and as always, feedback is appreciated.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 12 March 2001).]

[mac5732]

WHojo, sounds good, you don't want it to be easy. Question, what about using tracter beam along with ship capture or working something out on this. It seems that pirates would use a type of tractor beam to pull in enemy ships, hit victim with tractor beam, pull towards you then board with ship capture or is tractor beam part of ship capture routine? I haven't used ship capture yet so don't know. still experimenting with various things yet,,
Did you make the small worlds colonies or just bases for repair & supply? How did you get tech research, from your bases, planets, or thru liberating them from friend & foe or from all? mac

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I failed - found a large rock planet w/no atmo that had 2 tiny moons w/no atmo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's why pirates shouldn't get colony tech. Instead, you'd have to capture a rock colony ship from somebody else before you could move in.

The pirates shouldn't be relying on planetary production, but thievery instead.

Question: Did you have min settings on environmental resistance?

If you have both min env. res. and min reproduction, you require a perfect planet to get any growth at all http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Makes capturing slaves more important too. Finding a large transport with 500M people means you get to boost production on some planet by 20% or so.

-----------------------------
As for getting Mods/races. My Version hasn't got the latest patch, and I don't have time to redo the mod right now. If you want to quickly get into the Pirate mode, just set every racial trait that affects planets to its minimum value, and the rest is optional.

Ie.
Requirements:
- Research
- reproduction
- enviroment resist
- mineral, organic, radioactives
- trade
These should all be at their minimum setting. The rest is whatever you feel would be good.

Some "almost nessesary" things:
- minimum maintenance (+20%) (or you're making it impossible to win)
- Rock/None race (for the pirate ambiance)

I also recommend:
- ship attack/ defence maxed out. (It helps when you can't miss and you can dodge everything http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)
- propulsion experts (need speed to get in and board between shots)
- Psychic tech tree (makes capturing easy)

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
WHojo, sounds good, you don't want it to be easy. Question, what about using tracter beam along with ship capture or working something out on this. It seems that pirates would use a type of tractor beam to pull in enemy ships, hit victim with tractor beam, pull towards you then board with ship capture or is tractor beam part of ship capture routine? I haven't used ship capture yet so don't know. still experimenting with various things yet,,
Did you make the small worlds colonies or just bases for repair & supply? How did you get tech research, from your bases, planets, or thru liberating them from friend & foe or from all? mac<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding the tractor beams - I've never used em - never could find a need for them either - as long as your ships can manuever you're ok w/o em, plus they wld take up valuable space on ships (not to mention the costs)

Ship capture is simple - 2 things to remember - 1) make sure target ship has shields down (can't capture a ship w/sheilds still up) 2) make sure you're adjacent to the target ship and that your boarding ship has a undamaged boarding party

I made the 2 tiny moons Intell centers (6 Pirate intell center per)

got tech via research (to get to the initial ship capture - takes a looooong time) but mostly via ship capture/analyze



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:

That's why pirates shouldn't get colony tech. Instead, you'd have to capture a rock colony ship from somebody else before you could move in.

The pirates shouldn't be relying on planetary production, but thievery instead.

Question: Did you have min settings on environmental resistance?

If you have both min env. res. and min reproduction, you require a perfect planet to get any growth at all http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Makes capturing slaves more important too. Finding a large transport with 500M people means you get to boost production on some planet by 20% or so.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to me capturing colony ships from other races and allowing the pirate race to use those for expansion allows the pirate race to expand MUCH faster than making em only use colony ships that they build themselves.

My game experience lends me to my new view on pirate colonization... A pirate should only colonize 1 planet at a time (this might be more a hybrid of SJ's view and my original limited expansion view)...

Once I found the 3 planets in one square - 1 large w/no atmo and 2 tiny moons w/no atmo I essentially abbandoned my original homeworld, and relocated to the new base of operations - kinda like finding a better island w/safer harbors that's more off the beaten path but also allows access to rich shipping lanes... After colonizing your preferred base, the pirate wouldn't need to find another unless that one was overrun and destroyed - If that happens, simply capture another races colony ship and either 1) use their race to populate your new home or 2) if you happen to have a small sampling of your pop handy (maybe stash some on a transport in some out of the way secret pirate base) and use them after jettisoning, er I mean makin the old pop on the colony ship walk the plank...

As for environ resist, I think I did min that one, but to this day, I'm not sure exactly what effect it has on the game...

I also thought that physic was the special tech to get at the start but now I'm not so sure - something about capturing a ship w/o any bloodshed offends my good pirate sensibilities.

If it wasn't for the pop increase special components that org tech gives, i'd think that Org would be the best for Pirates do to the incred armor that you get - armor, to me, is much preferable on a boarding ship than shields. As for mixing armor and shields, to me I like to keep my ships small and cheap (LC or smaller) so no room for both.

I also continue to voice my objection to using any captured pop as slaves or whatever... a pirate might deal in slaves but I don't see em using em to colonize planets. just allows too much expansion.

As for not using a planet to get resources I agree - to a point. I found that w/o using the planet at the beginning of the game b/f I got ship capture, I would have run out of resources and died of stagnation - it's unavoidable that a race will have to use planetside resource generating mines to get a foothold in the early game - after that, I agree that resources should come from the spoils of the sea...




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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

There isn't any formal mod for a pirate race yet. It's more of a role playing race right now. I know suicide junkie has played it for a while and some others have also explored it. I've fooled around with it a bit also. I hope one day that it could actually be made into a mod. It is a great idea and fun to play.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>to me capturing colony ships from other races and allowing the pirate race to use those for expansion allows the pirate race to expand MUCH faster than making em only use colony ships that they build themselves...... A pirate should only colonize 1 planet at a time ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Q: how do you plan on enforcing this?
Anything you capture in SE4 can be used as if you built it yourself.

Also, if you have to use captured ships to colonize, you won't get any until some time into the game, and since you can't retrofit the colonies (you don't have access to the tech), you have to make do with an ice colony instead of that prime triple rock world.
Captured colony ships don't make expansion very fast at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If [you find a better planet] happens, simply capture another races colony ship and either 1) use their race to populate your new home or 2) if you happen to have a small sampling of your pop handy (maybe stash some on a transport in some out of the way secret pirate base) and use them after jettisoning, er I mean makin the old pop on the colony ship walk the plank...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you supporting the use of captured colony ships here?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As for environ resist, I think I did min that one, but to this day, I'm not sure exactly what effect it has on the game...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What I believe it does is make your growth rate drop faster as conditions deteriorate.
Ie. if you have god-like environment resist, a harsh world will have 1% less reproduction than a optimal world. For the pirates, anything other than optimal causes a severe decrease in growth.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I also thought that [psychic] was the special tech to get at the start but now I'm not so sure - something about capturing a ship w/o any bloodshed offends my good pirate sensibilities.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I've found that it makes it too easy to capture most of the enemy fleet in one turn and destroy the rest with thier own ships. Boarding parties should be used instead.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I also continue to voice my objection to using any captured pop as slaves or whatever... a pirate might deal in slaves but I don't see em using em to colonize planets. just allows too much expansion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note that the captured race gets all of your racial traits except for what they breathe. This means that any captured pop will have zero growth too. The addition of 20M people at a time is not going to expand your empire much.
If I would have allowed the construction of colony ships, I would have had three systems colonized instead of three planets.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As for not using a planet to get resources I agree - to a point. I found that w/o using the planet at the beginning of the game b/f I got ship capture, I would have run out of resources and died of stagnation - it's unavoidable that a race will have to use planetside resource generating mines to get a foothold in the early game - after that, I agree that resources should come from the spoils of the sea...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Naturally. The homeworld is/should only be good for getting the boarding party tech and for funding the first secret bases.
Not long into the game, you should be overwhelmed by intel, and be forced to abandon your planets, thus forcing you to become nomadic and getting your resources from ship capture. The zero maintenance thing I was doing was intended for the time when you lose all your planets.

Note that you always have 50k storage and 200 production of each resource. With zero maintenance, a Pirate race could theoretically come back from having only one space yard station.

[mac5732]

SJ & WHojo, what about limiting the amount of resources or tech from planet that you are on. Possibly limiting this to say after turn 50 or 100. that way you would have it in the beginning but after that you would have better luck on your bases, ships.
In regards to colony ships, is it possible to mod so that captured pop could be used as a form of trade. This way when you capture a
colony ship, you could trade to any player, if no takers, then they take the long walk on the plank, and you keep the ship. if this
is possible you could take away the colonization aspect of using captured pop to colonize thus cutting down on rapid expansion
As for tractor beams, it just seems that this is something in the game that is basically useless. I just thought by utilizing it as a vital piece it would liven up the boarding and make it worthwhile to have. I guess I read to much of the old Lesman series by EE Doc Smith. The pirates always used tractor beams to pull victims in.
just some ideas. mac

another quick thought, how about letting them able to capture and use robo-miners to get resources instead of using planets?

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 13 March 2001).]

[DirectorTsaarx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
&lt;snipped a lot of stuff&gt;
Note that you always have 50k storage and 200 production of each resource. With zero maintenance, a Pirate race could theoretically come back from having only one space yard station.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you could always have your pirates do some remote mining; in fact, maybe the "secret base" could be a base station or starbase in an asteroid field with some mining components and a repair bay; when the asteroids are mined out (or you've maxed out storage and you don't need to mine for a while), retrofit the base to include something else besides the miners. Or use satellites (if you've researched 'em, or captured an enemy's satellite layer).

Just some thoughts. I realize pirates aren't necessarily good miners, but you could just think of them as scavengers instead, and they're just taking whatever they can find in the asteroids in addition to preying on ships.

BTW - I have a reason for the 200 production per turn (besides the obvious fact that it's one of the default settings): it represents the pirates preying on the "invisible freighters" used by all empires to move their resources around. Of course, I think the pirates should get a bonus on this one... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[WhiteHojo]

Ah, the joy of the active thread - come to work, check the board and find that there are others who have the same priorities in life as me - scary...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Q: how do you plan on enforcing this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume you'd enforce it the same way you would enforce the no planet sided mining after the beginning or any other preferrence, via the roleplay.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, if you have to use captured ships to colonize, you won't get any until some time into the game, and since you can't retrofit the colonies (you don't have access to the tech), you have to make do with an ice colony instead of that prime triple rock world.
Captured colony ships don't make expansion very fast at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm only basing this on my 1 game as a pirate but by the time I got ship capture, I was running into as many colony ships as war ships - my first capture and analys was a colony ship - If I was allowed to use captured colony pops and colony ships all the time for expansion, I'd have been expanding at a rate far exceeding that available to me using only slower, lower cargo capacity pirate colonizers. (should be noted that the game setup will also affect this - I was using only colonize homeworld type, rock).

Not sure i understand the "can't retrofit" part of the post but it's early...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If [you find a better planet] happens, simply capture another races colony ship and either 1) use their race to populate your new home or 2) if you happen to have a small sampling of your pop handy (maybe stash some on a transport in some out of the way secret pirate base) and use them after jettisoning, er I mean makin the old pop on the colony ship walk the plank


Are you supporting the use of captured colony ships here?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dire situations call for dire actions - when faced with the extinction of the pirate race, sure.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Note that the captured race gets all of your racial traits except for what they breathe. This means that any captured pop will have zero growth too. The addition of 20M people at a time is not going to expand your empire much.
If I would have allowed the construction of colony ships, I would have had three systems colonized instead of three planets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recognize this, but to me being able to dump 20M (if capture a colony ship) or upwards of 200M (If capture a transport w/pop - seen this one 3 times in my 1 game) flies in the face of what I thought we both agreed was an important limiting factor of the Pirate - slow, very slow expansion...


SJ, do you think maybe we're focusing too much on the roleplayin aspect of the pirate race and instead maybe we should be working on the programing of the AI to play a Pirate? Personally, Untill the AI can show me it can handle Ship Capture on a consistant basis, I don't think it's possible to have a AI run Pirate Race that is competitve - I believe they'd be the equivelant of a Neurtal...




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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
SJ & WHojo, what about limiting the amount of resources or tech from planet that you are on. Possibly limiting this to say after turn 50 or 100. that way you would have it in the beginning but after that you would have better luck on your bases, ships.
In regards to colony ships, is it possible to mod so that captured pop could be used as a form of trade. This way when you capture a
colony ship, you could trade to any player, if no takers, then they take the long walk on the plank, and you keep the ship. if this
is possible you could take away the colonization aspect of using captured pop to colonize thus cutting down on rapid expansion
As for tractor beams, it just seems that this is something in the game that is basically useless. I just thought by utilizing it as a vital piece it would liven up the boarding and make it worthwhile to have. I guess I read to much of the old Lesman series by EE Doc Smith. The pirates always used tractor beams to pull victims in.
just some ideas. mac

another quick thought, how about letting them able to capture and use robo-miners to get resources instead of using planets?

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 13 March 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mac - I think you're right on target w/the limiting planet side mining to the early game - that's what I did anyway. I put a self imposed limit on my new large planet base of 3 or 4 (can't remember exactly) min miners and 1 each of org & rad. Kept the original planet's setup the same (w/the exception of scrappin 1 Min miner and building a Res facility early on)... some type of self imposed limit on the number of mining facilities is required in my opinion (but I don't know of any way to mod these into the game -just have to trust the player)

don't know of any way to actually trade captured POP other than offering the whole colony ship to someone - if there was another Human player of 2 in the game, imagine the price you could get for a colony ship loaded w/a race that breathes a diff atmo than them... let the resources role in!!! However, I'm not sure if the computer would count the Pop in a colony ship as a bonus or not (or even if they'd recognize em at all - trade value wise)

Personally, I've never seen a valid use for the tractor beam or repulsor beam... if anyone else has used em let us know. To me, they'd just be wasted space.

The robo miners, I must confess, became a guilty concession in my game - I found myself building em quite often - but only on spacebase platforms - only way to get a return on the investment - but the depleting resources is kind of annoying (and I know you can disable it, but it's not that bad)

keep up the ideas



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I assume you'd enforce it the same way you would enforce the no planet sided mining after the beginning or any other preferrence, via the roleplay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah ha! There we go. I am trying to get the game to automatically force you to be piraty.
If you aren't allowed to do something, then you will be tempted to do it anyways. But, if you can't do it, theres no problem.

What I suggest is removing (ice/rock/gas) colony components from a pirate race's tech areas. Thus, you have to select a racial trait of "not a pirate" to get colony techs.
Therefore, pirates can not retrofit a captured colony ship to whatever colony type they want. They also cannot retrofit a cruiser to have a colony component.
I will also now suggest that Pirates do not get mineral/organic/radioactives/monolith facilities. ( http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifOOOh http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)
Note: robo-extractors are still OK.
As you can see, now pirates only get their home planet's original resource production, and any colonies only produce research or intel (or population, or ships) Remote mining is still an option, but will run out as the planets are depleted.
We now have Pirates that start out just like now, expand resource wise, but then fade back to about 7k minerals per turn after a few years. Now, the pirates have a base, and rely on captured ships for resources! The only way to permanently expand your resource production is to capture a (fully developed & hence defended) enemy world.

Note that it is a lot easier to resist cheating once (when creating your race) than to resist each and every turn. Therefore we should have our pirate limitations built into the racial traits.
Note also, that although my suggestion eliminated the major resource source for pirates, there are still many different options for gathering resources. SE4 rules!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm only basing this on my 1 game as a pirate but by the time I got ship capture, I was running into as many colony ships as war ships - my first capture and analys was a colony ship - If I was allowed to use captured colony pops and colony ships all the time for expansion, I'd have been expanding at a rate far exceeding that available to me using only slower, lower cargo capacity pirate colonizers. (should be noted that the game setup will also affect this - I was using only colonize homeworld type, rock).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Only colonize homeworld type" ?!? Owch! that's why you had so many colony ships running around, they couldn't find any good colonies at home.
An easy solution is to have the AIs add a Self-destruct to colony ships. Then, most of the time, you will have destroyed the colony component before taking out the SDD, making the ship useless except for slaves. You will still be able to use the occasional colony ship, but it will be limited by the game itself. (No willpower required)

---------------------------------

I think we all agree now that Psychic tech is bad for pirates, and Boarding Parties are good.

---------------------------------

I think the key difference in our opinions stems from the fact that you are trying to be pirates using willpower, while I'm trying to use the game engine to funnel these races into doing Piraty things.

IMO, the only self-restraint required should be during race creation. If you fail doing that, hey, you just made a non-pirate race, so it dosen't matter. If you succeed in following the ground rules for Pirate races, then good for you. You can now do your worst and pull out all the stops to get ahead in life. Once you have designed your race anything that SE4 lets you do should be completely legal.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 13 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

The only way to force the computer to act like a priate is to build the tech tree in such a way that all the items you do not want the pirate to have are not researchable. I think this would require creating the standard tech tree as an option. This would probably screw up all the other AI's or at leastrequire additional prorgaming for each one.
Role playing is the easiest way to get around this although it would be great if it could be made a game function.
I can see tractor/repulser beams being very useful to a pirate espescially if you only want to capture certain ships in a fleet battle. You pull the one you want to capture in close while you push the others away.
I have not used these features much, only tried the tractor beam and I am not sure if it worked. I am going to try the repulser beam on fighters, I don't know if it will work on them though or on sat either. It would be nice to push some of those Groups away when they are circling like sharks!

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Ah ha! There we go. I am trying to get the game to automatically force you to be piraty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah ha!! Now we're on the same page. Now that we have a defined parameter things should be alot clearer - I was doin it the willpower way (alot simpler, but not as effective) so now I'll change my plans...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I suggest is removing (ice/rock/gas) colony components from a pirate race's tech areas. Thus, you have to select a racial trait of "not a pirate" to get colony techs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

interesting... not sure how the most efficient way to mod that would be - how'd you do it? Don't know off the top of my head how to remove a tech from a race w/o denying it to all races - any ideas?

Like the idea but the more I played the pirate, the more I am in favor of letting the pirate have ONLY 1 colony stack (stack b/c it could include a planet and it's moons) in the game at a time - the rest should be bases as you say. Just seems more Piraty/Carribean to me...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will also now suggest that Pirates do not get mineral/organic/radioactives/monolith [b]facilities( http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifOOOh http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm ok w/that - no monoliths seems ok since after the 1st of the game resources should only come from existing mining facilities and the robo extractors in the asteroids...

However, I think they should be able to improve the robos they build.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>An easy solution is to have the AIs add a Self-destruct to colony ships. Then, most of the time, you will have destroyed the colony component before taking out the SDD, making the ship useless except for slaves. You will still be able to use the occasional colony ship, but it will be limited by the game itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I suppose this is possible, but then you would have to redesign other components (either colony pod, the engines, the crew/life/bridge, supply or cargo to allow the fitting of the self destruct device on the ships, not to mention having to redesign all the AIs to use the new design.

I would like to keep the changing of the existing components and races to a minimum... adding components should be ok since they're specialized pirate stuff and wouldn't be included on other race ships anyway. Also, some of the best races are the TDM mod and tinkering around w/them is not something I would encourage. (they seem pretty balanced right now)

What's your feelings on trade/research treaties? I have found they are rather nice and can be justified as the ole Letters of Marque that some pirates/privateers used to "justify" their actions against the rich shipping of the "enemy"




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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Felan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Personally, I've never seen a valid use for the tractor beam or repulsor beam... if anyone else has used em let us know. To me, they'd just be wasted space.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't been playing long but in my first game repulsor/tractor beams saved my butt.

The problem I was having was that the enemy ships would move right next to my space station and launch their missles, which would then explode against my station before my PD would get a chance to shoot them. Anytime they came in range I would shoot them with everything except repulsors and then repulse them.

Later I adapted the strategy to work with my ships. I would tractor them in, move one space and fire everything except repulsors then repulse them and move the rest of my movement away from them. They had to perpetually fire from longer ranges and I always got point blank shots. Works great when combined with high damage low range weapons. Missing the all-important repulsor shot almost never happens (point blank range). In strategic combat it's a little more difficult as the ai doesn't think of them as anything other than weapons, but it could still work if you are very careful how you design your ships: Tractor beam first, next ALL Other normal Weapons, and finally Repulsor beam. I haven't experimented much with the ai but I doubt that it will use it's own movement effectively in conjunction with repulsor/tractor weapons.

Tractor/repulsor weapons are great for dispersing the enemy fleet, for example you can repulse one ship behind you and the others in front thus isolating one ship at a time.

[This message has been edited by Felan (edited 13 March 2001).]

[Possum]

INTERESTING, Felan!

I messed with the tractor/repulsers once way back in the pre-release demo, and they didn't seem to do ANYTHING, so I never touched them again.

What are the limits? I know in Starfire you could only move a ship around with tractors/repulsers if it was smaller than your ship...

[Felan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Possum:
INTERESTING, Felan!

I messed with the tractor/repulsers once way back in the pre-release demo, and they didn't seem to do ANYTHING, so I never touched them again.

What are the limits? I know in Starfire you could only move a ship around with tractors/repulsers if it was smaller than your ship...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there were any size limits or such. If you can target it (ships and even starbases) you can move it if you hit it. If one were to change the target options of it to include fighters and satellites then perhaps it would work on those as well, not sure though.

I seem to remember that when I attacked planets my tractors/repulsors fired, but the planet thankfully didn't move.

I think the damage listed in the tractor beam is how far it will pull. If 2 then it will pull 2 squares and 4 will pull 4 squares. Inversely so with repulsor.

But a tractor beam will only pull the ship toward yours, which means they will stop in the same hex as you. I wasn't able to select or target anything in that hex but I've recently figured out that you can flip through your list of ships with the controls in the upper right corner so I will probably try to select my ship and target the enemy at a truely point-blank range and see what happens.

That actually brings up another potentially interesting strategy of using suicide ships loaded with tractors to pull in a bunch of enemies and then self-destructing the ship with all the enemy in the same square I imagine it could be quite damaging.

If my statement of the damage to push strength of repulsors is accurate then it would also be useful to install a repulsor 3 along with a repulsor 4 (or if you can actually target enemy ships in your square) 2 repulsor 4's as you could then push for a total distance of 7 or 8 squares, respectively. The enemy will likely have a movement of just enough to get back in range of your tractors for a repeat.

If I remember right they are also affected by the mounts (I didn't know about them in my first game) so starbases could get some tractors of frightening range and repulsors would get terrible pushing weapons (power of 16) which could be used to give your ships a boost or keep the enemy away from your planet.

[This message has been edited by Felan (edited 13 March 2001).]

[Deathstalker]

Tractor beams can be tough. I was playing a game vs. the Borg where they fired missles, then tractored me in after I was damaged and used troops to board my ships and capture them. Ouch. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif Its just to bad the repulser beams don't fire like in Moo1,(like pd weapons, pushing the ship away when it moves into your range b4 it fires its weapons.).

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

[Possum]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Felan:

That actually brings up another potentially interesting strategy of using suicide ships loaded with tractors to pull in a bunch of enemies and then self-destructing the ship with all the enemy in the same square I imagine it would be quite damaging.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool idea, but how do you voluntarily self-destruct? What occurs to me is using tractor beams with ramming ships!

(/me flashes on Ben Hur)

"Ramming speed!"

[Suicide Junkie]

Interesting Repulsor beam story:
I once had Massive mount repulsor beams (20) damage) on a starbase. A fleet of enemy cruisers was simmed, and I'd fling five of them across the battle map each battle turn http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Now, on one shot, however, the ship I targetted just plain dissapeared! After I hit end turn, two ships moved from the same square! The guy I'd hit with a 20 point repulse flew 5 squares & nailed one of his friends! Unfortunately, they were both fine. If they had done ramming damage to each other that would have been Awesome!

---------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>interesting... not sure how the most efficient way to mod that would be - how'd you do it? Don't know off the top of my head how to remove a tech from a race w/o denying it to all races - any ideas?

Like the idea but the more I played the pirate, the more I am in favor of letting the pirate have ONLY 1 colony stack (stack b/c it could include a planet and it's moons) in the game at a time - the rest should be bases as you say. Just seems more Piraty/Carribean to me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you have to select a racial trait of "not a pirate" to get colony techs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is a simple matter of copy-paste to add a free racial trait to all AIs &non-pirate races.
A second racial trait of "is a pirate" could be used for stuff you don't want non-pirates using. The GM would have to ensure that only one option is chosen.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, I think they should be able to improve the robos they build. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note that I said "facilities". By this, the tech area is researchable, but Pirates cannot get the facilities (ie. facilities have an additional requirement).
The components are totally not affected.

"self-destruct on colonies"
All you have to do is copy paste an "add SDD to colony ship" in the AIs designs. You could add 10Kt to the size of a colony ship if you wanted to keep the same parts, and just ADD the SDD.
Alternatively, you could have an integrated Bridge-with-SDD. If its the same familiy as a normal Bridge, the AIs will use them instead as soon as they become available.
Pirates just have to be more careful when deciding when to board http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What's your feelings on trade/research treaties? I have found they are rather nice and can be justified as the ole Letters of Marque that some pirates/privateers used to "justify" their actions against the rich shipping of the "enemy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, it would also be pretty hard to prevent treaties.

I see the trade/research treaties as more of a "friendly" protectorate treaty. Ie. you pay in order to not have pirates attack you. The pirates give you nothing in return except "protection" (since they produce nothing) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

----------------------------

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Tractor Beams + Organic Armor = kickass ship.

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BTW, there is a "delete" check box at the top of the edit window, for when you double-post.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 13 March 2001).]

[Felan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Possum:
Cool idea, but how do you voluntarily self-destruct? What occurs to me is using tractor beams with ramming ships!

(/me flashes on Ben Hur)

"Ramming speed!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I self-destructed a ship once that had the self-destruct component in it. Just go to the use component option and use it. But maybe I'm wrong and it was that I had just wanted to self-destruct it but couldn't.

[Nitram Draw]

For the Tech trees you could put all the standard techs in a separate trait with no cost. Then if you did not choose this trait you could never use any tech from it.
This would allow you to modify all the standard races to get the tech without affecting the points in the game.
The Pirate could not use this tech. I don't know if there could be a flag to disallow choosing both Pirate and Standard trait but if there is a way, you would solve the problem. Of course the Pirate tree would have to be fairly large if you wanted a lot of variety available to the Pirate.

[Suicide Junkie]

As I have said about three times,
-----------------------------------

-most things are left alone

-Colony components & other stuff pirates don't have require the racial tech
"Not a Pirate"

-Pirate stuff requires the racial tech
"Is a Pirate"

Just don't let anyone choose both.

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
Do you have to rename the components when you paste them to them in the pirate tech?

[Windborne]

How about doing this instead:

create a "Pirate tech tree" and fill it with loads of cool pirate stuff, only each pirate ship item you add generates negative research and if possible negative happiness.

What this would do would be to make a race that became more "Pirate" less able to research things, and force them to fill their bases with improvements that generate happier populations rather then research, mining, etc . . . You might want to add in some special pirate happiness facilities too.

Some techs for ships:

Plunderer: remotely mines enemy worlds destroying recourses like robo-miners do for astroids.

Pirate: Advanced early ship capture technology, much more efficient then what you get later from the regular tree.

Pirate research center: Very small component that lets you analyze ships in space after you catch them, the way pirates get most of their tech.

Pirate retro-fit center: small shipboard component that lets pirates install their more advanced technologies onto ships they capture from primitive races.

Pirate mine warheads: Powerful mine warheads that only target engine, security center, armor, and shields. Basically small automated seekers designed to make enemy ships easier to board.

Large base-cloaking devices: A huge device designed to cloak pirate bases in enemy systems, learned early on it's easy to build, but it's too big to put on anything but stations/starbases, it does however give you excellent hiding ability, maybe later Versions could also do double duty as shield components for the base?

Pirate figher crew: small crews of pirates who specialize in manning fighters and using them to board enemy vessles.


Another advantage of this system is that eventually the pirate race could reform, disband its fleets, and start developing a real empire, not likely but possible. As for colonies, let them colonize, the more they spread out the more dangerous they are, and what happens if they wipe out all their prey? ARGH!!!!

[This message has been edited by Windborne (edited 13 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
Have you tried a game where you left out the resource facilities from the pirates tech? What did the game put in place of the resource facilities on your homeworld?
Cutting and pasting is a whole lot easier than creating a whole tech tree http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif

[WhiteHojo]

I must not be following the rest of you... I'm a little lost on the some of the concepts mentioned here.

If you place all the tech that you want a PR (pirate Race) to have access to in a special Pirate Race Tech tree, the PR will still have access to all normal tech - all races have access to normal tech.

If you make the PR a racial trait selectable on startup and then allow em access to tech that is tagged somehow Pirate Tech (similiar to Org or Crystal, etc tech) but limiting em from access to normal non PR tech I'm not sure I understand how you do this?? A little further explanation might help (such as where exactly do you paste these "is a Pirate" and "is not a pirate" lines)

I have tried to add a new special racial tech similiar to the Org/Temp/Crystal/etc techs in the racial traits file and the Tech Area file - can't get it to work, keep getting an invalid parameter errror. Anyone els have success doin this??

While I'm on it - anyone know what the Restricted Trait and Required Trait lines in the racial Traits data file mean/do???

Another Q - anyone know of what all can be listed in the racial traits file as a racial trait type?

this modding makes my head hurt...


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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

This will get the trait to show up as a choice but with the mod pack installed you can't load any existing race for some reason. You can create a new race though. You would need to add some techs to it to get anything out of it.

Name := Pirating
Description := Gains access to the Pirating Technology Tree.
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := 3000
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 6
Value 2 := 0
Required Trait 1 := None
Required Trait 2 := None
Required Trait 3 := None
Restricted Trait 1 := None
Restricted Trait 2 := None
Restricted Trait 3 := None
If you want to restrict the Pirate from accessing all the standard techs you must make all the standard techs part of a trait that allows access to them and have no standard techs available. This may not be possible, as some techs may need to be present to set up the game.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 13 March 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

Nit - have you tried this new racial trait in the game yet?

I put that info in the racial trait file then designated the new Pirate Tech as a racial area of 6 (the next one available I assumed)...

tried to start a new game and when I attempted to add an existing race I get a error message saying can't find whatever-empire-I'm-trying-to-add.emp file....

message goes away when I remove the pirate racial trait.

very upsetting

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

Yeah for some reason it will work with the TDM mod pack but it will only allow you to add a new race. I haven't added,saved and restarted to see if the saved one will work. I'll try that tomorrow.

[Suicide Junkie]

The "is a pirate":

Name := Pirates
Description := Gains access to the Pirating Technology Tree. Cannot use planet based resource extraction facilities or Colonizing tech.
Restricted Trait 1 := Non-Pirating


The "is not a Pirate":

Name := Non-Pirating
Description := Gains access to Colonizing components, colony ship hulls and resource extraction facilities.
Restricted Trait 1 := Pirating

See?

----------------------

As for the homeworld, the game is apparently hardcoded to give you 1 organic, 1 radioacitves, 1 spaceport, 1 resupply, 1 ship yard, and the rest 50%/50% between research and minerals or something.

I assume it would still do the same, but the pirates just wouldn't be able to build more.

Will do a quick test right now.

Dang. It just filled my planet up with research facils.
Any Ideas on how to prevent resource facilities from being built on colonies?

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 13 March 2001).]

[capnq]

Somebody suggested that pirates could get resources by capturing robominers. There's a small problem with that: hardly anybody builds any robominers for the pirates to capture.

------------------
Cap'n Q

[Marty Ward]

SJ,
Where did you put the "is a pirate" and the "is not a pirate" stuff? Did you create separate traits or modify existing ones?

[Suicide Junkie]

I haven't actually done that. I'm gonna wait to get the next patch until I finish my game, and when I get the patch I'll have to redo most of my mod anyways, so I'm gonna wait until then.

[WhiteHojo]

Nit - that's the same line of problems I ran into - which is why I wondered if anyone has successfully added a race to the race trait file... if you can't use the game in it's capacity, to me that's not a successfull mod.

I'll keep fiddling but w/o someone elses imput I don't feel very confident of the chances of moding a true Pirate Race. Might have to go back to the willpower way...



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

It actually worked well in the mod pack directory, except for those few time with the blank screen (???)
I don't know what is different with the main directory. Maybe it is coded in where only the original number of advanced characterestics are available. I wonder if anyone else has been able to add a trait. I remember a mod, Daves or Denullvis (?) that added a trait called nano technology but I never tried it so I don't know if he was any more successful.
I'm gonna keep fiddling with it. I think if I recreate all the original races as new and save them then I will be able to add them to the game. I think I'll have to wait till the weekend to do that though.

[Urendi Maleldil]

I think you have to create a new game rather than load an old one for the changes to work.

[WhiteHojo]

UM- nope, that doesn't work either - if I mod the racial trait file to add a new Pirate race and then restart the game, click on new game and try to add an existing empire, I get the error I mentioned below. If I create a new race, no problems. If I let the computer randomly add a existing race, no problems, but for some reason, I can't add an existing race when the racial trait file has been modded.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 14 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

Yeah it's odd. I can start a new game and add create new races but I can't add any of the standard existing races. They will join if the computer picks them and act normally. My only guess is that it has to do with the .emp file. I get an error that it can't find the .emp file.

[WhiteHojo]

Nit - yep, same here

what exactly are .emp files and how do you read em?

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

The .emp files are created when you save a race to file. I think they record all the data regarding characteristics, settings, ministers etc.
I think if the computer chooses them and you switch them to player control then save the race you can create the .emp files with the new traits saved.

[Suicide Junkie]

Um, we are going to have to edit all of the .emp files anyways, to give them either colony ship tech or pirate tech racial traits.

Why is this a problem if its something we'd be doing anyways?

[Nitram Draw]

Creating the .emp file is not a problem. Just let the computer pick the races, change them to human and save the race, maybe give it a slightly different name so you keep the original races available.
I suppose all the AI files will have to modified for any Pirate AI race created.
I'm just wondering why adding a trait caused the standard game to fail but worked in the mod pack directory. I didn't think the mod pack changed anything except the AI files.

[Suicide Junkie]

I would suspect that SE4 is more lenient on the Mod directory, since it can always fall back to the original files. If something small is left out, a default value can be used, and if it fails anyways, use the original files.

[Nitram Draw]

Thats possible. The guy who made the DMan mod said in another thread that he was able to add a trait so I think it is possible to add one and make it work. I'm just not very good with programs. I'm a trial and error guy, I try and make a lot of errors http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[WhiteHojo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Um, we are going to have to edit all of the .emp files anyways, to give them either colony ship tech or pirate tech racial traits.

Why is this a problem if its something we'd be doing anyways?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My concern was that something that was supposed to be moddable - the racial traits - isn't. To me this should be answered whether or not it causes us a problem in our PR project.

How are you goin to edit the existing races .emp files if you can't add em to to the game so that you can then edit them? (to edit a race, you must 1st add them as an existing race to your game, then go into the race, change whatever settings you want, and save it. - if there is another way, please let me know cuz I musta missed it)


------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Nitram Draw]

WH,
You don't edit the .emp files. They are created when you save a race. I think they contain the various points used, traits, culture etc. They can contain Minister settings for example and even ship designs used by the race.
I don't know if you remember but before patch 3, I think, not all the standard races could be manually chosen to add to a game but if they were chosen and you took control of them and saved the race you could then manually add them to a game.
I think the Pirate trait can be added, any trait for that matter, but its just that the info stored in the existing race .emp files won't have the new trait and therefore won't be available until you save the race during a game where the trait has been added to the Racial Trait file.

[Suicide Junkie]

Even in the worst case scenario, you could simply create a new empire, set all its traits to the original's and then click "not-a-pirate" racial trait, and save your .emp.

AFAIK: The .emp dosen't contain any AI stuff, just old ship designs and racial traits and descriptions.

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
I think you are right. The .emp contains the set up info for the race.

[mac5732]

SJ & WHoJo, just a quick question, don't have much time today, The AI in the reg game without Mods, never builds or uses baseships, at least not that i have ever seen, in your mods w/pirates, do they, and if so what problems, if any, did they create for the pirate race? Or would they make any significant difference, especially in using them for tech, pop, or research instead of as warships?? Just a quick thought, mac

[Suicide Junkie]

AFAIK, no AI has played as Pirates, and even MM would have one heck of a time trying to get them smart enough to capture even one ship from a human player.

(without heavy bonuses, AND Psychic tech (which is no longer considered a Piraty trait))

All non-pirate races would be normal.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 14 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

Do you think a neutral could play as a Pirate? The AI may not need to be as comprehensive for a neutral.

[Nitram Draw]

Well, I did some testing of the Pirate race trait and found some odd things.
First if I added a new trait to the SE4 directory then the game would not load. I kept getting an error message. Have no idea why this would happen.
If I added the trait to the mod pack it would work with some problems. I loaded the game about 8-10 times. Occasionally there was nothing in the main window or the small quadrant window. The planet window with the description, facilities etc. was there and all other items functioned.
Most of the time the game loaded fine. I couldn't add any existing race. I could add new players, add new players with saved empires and the computer would choose additional players so I think this has to do with the extra trait not being in the existing .emp file but I'm not positive. I was able to add techs, facilities, ships and components with no apparent problems, although I only played about 25 turns per game.
I have no clue why adding a trait would work in the mod pack directory and not in the SE4 directory. Anyone has any ideas?

[DirectorTsaarx]

SJ, I don't think Mac was asking if the AI can play as a pirate, he was asking if baseships (which, admittedly, don't seem to be used by the AI) caused any particular problems for pirates. Especially if said baseships were used for transport, colonizing, etc. roles.

[mac5732]

Tks D. Tsaarx, and I apoligize to SJ if I didn't make my questions clear enough. SJ, I was just wondering, if you used baseships in your pirate mod, and if so did they create any problems for the pirates. Baseships are the largest and would have larger crews to overcome in a boarding operation. However, once captured, they could be used, due to their size as colonies, research or tech, etc. basically might or could be used as a mobile base. Did you have any problems with pirates capturing them if you are using them?
or any other problems? Do you think they should be incorporated into yours & WHoJO's mods as major componets or leave out of the game. Also Could you mod where 2 ships could board a victim at the same time, giving you more fighting power, if in fact baseships are used with the larger crews? mac

[Suicide Junkie]

As for the crew size hindering boarding parties, yeah, that could be a problem, although I haven't seen any AIs build baseships. And I'm sure not gonna research them on my own http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've has trouble capturing colony ships & BCs, since I was only putting a single BP1 on each of my LCs, and two crew quaters fended off my boarding attempts. I ended up just shooting the BC until one of the CQs got blown up, and captured him with my third ship.

It would be nice if, when you used boarding parties, you could destroy some of the defending components before you died. Then, a series of capture attempts could eventually succeed.

As for trying to capture a baseship, I'd send a big fleet of captured LCs, which would run up and start pounding away with Large Antiproton Beams, or whatever my best tech was. With more than three times the tonnage in ships, I would expect to drop the baseships shields before taking 50% losses, and now short bursts of fire from each ship until there is only one Crewquarter left & no SDD. Then I can capture with a standard LC. If I was planning this operation for some time, I would also have a CR full of boarding parties (10 or so), and may have researched higher capture tech. Then I wouldn't have to do as much internal damage (only take out the SDD) to capture it.

The first capture always has to be analysed, the second one would be retrofitted to be, probably a support ship (repair/resupply and maybe a bunch of BPs for taking over the next Baseship)

Of course, if the AI dosen't build any baseships, the universe will never see one.

[mac5732]

This is getting off subject for a minute, but I sent MM and RA e-mail on AI not building or using baseships, RA stated that is does and MM said they would look into it. However, has anyone ever had game/s outside of mods, where AI has used and built baseship? Both several of my friends and I have played a good number of games from original up to v1.30 and none of us have seen AI use baseships. Also if you haven't could you send MM and RA a note of this. I think that if AI used baseships like it should it might improve game. ( how about in pirate mod, AI can build but human can't)
just idea, tks for help Mac

[E. Albright]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Personally, I've never seen a valid use for the tractor beam or repulsor beam... if anyone else has used em let us know. To me, they'd just be wasted space.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the following strategy to be amusing against the computer: I fortified a warp point leading to the home systems of an AI I really didn't feel ready to fight with a couple of Battlestations armed with engine-killing weapons and massive mount repulsor beams... They'd send a couple of ships through the WP, and I'd lock down their movement and shove 'em out of range. When combat would end (generally rather uneventfully), the AI would have a fleet of useless ships draining his resources. If you could take out all the weapons on the ships as well, you could probably do the same to a human (unless they had SDDs)...

Yes, I know it's unfair to do this to the computer... But I felt justified in this particular case, as that filthy race had the nerve to be mechanoid, and hence invulnerable to my first contact plagueships...

[Suicide Junkie]

In a pirate game, it already happens that a Human (pirate) race cannot build baseships.

A Human Pirate race already "cannot" build BCs.

Although it is technically possible to build a Baseship as a pirate race, at 50% build + limited resources, it will take around 75 turns to finish a baseship. Even LCs take over a year to build.

It will also require the scrapping of a LOT of LCs to fund the construction.

--------------------------------

About removing resource facilities for Pirates.
If we don't allow Pirates to build any resource extractor facilities, thier home planet will be filled up with research centers.

With 200 per turn + 50K starting, they could build an escort with a mineral miner quickly, and use it to start their economy. Alternatively, an escort with a (Pirate)SY could build a base with lots of mineral extractors over the nearby planets. By mothballing, you can avoid wasting minerals you can't store. Upon capturing ships, the pirate economy would shift over to the faster and sustainable (extractors deplete value) thieving economic system.

With all the research available, they could get ship capture tech quickly, as well as research repair & armor techs for better capture abilities.

[WhiteHojo]

Lots of good ideas being tossed around here lately... hope it keeps up but I'll be gone and off the Boards for about a week - business trip. Keep up the thoughts.

Hojo

------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

SJ, Is it possible for boarding parties to capture battlestations if the AI builds them either as a ship or as a base, (in regards to the pirate mod)Do you think this could be modded if not, into the pirate mod? I have never tried it in the regular game as the AI doesn't build many if any BS and to be honest I never even thought of it. In your mod would/could be possible to have AI build more BS's and use the ship capture routine? This would make for an interesting twist. How about capturing ftrs? Just some ideas,
mac

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

But what I know:
-The AI does build BassltStations, usually in orbit of the homeworld.
-I don't recall ever seeing an AI with boarding parties. (Plus I have never managed to capture a ship using Strategic combat)
-Fighters & sats are immune to capture vie boarding parties, but an allegiance converter may be moddable to target fighters & still work.
Hmm. Point defence Psychics anyone?
-AFAIK, the strategic decisions are hard-coded into a few styles.

[jc173]

You could probably get the AI to build more defense bases by fiddling with the settings in the *construction_vehicles.txt file. Just decrease the number of planets per item or increase the number of must have at least. Keep in mind though this may screw with the AI's strategy since bases are pretty expensive to set up. They are capturable though. I grabbed a defense base battle station and a battle station ship yard Last night from the EEE. Which was pretty ideal since the two stations orbited a world with a resupply depot and other goodies deep in their territory.

[Suicide Junkie]

How has Ground combat worked for pirates so far? I'm not sure if I should bother building the infrastructure needed for those operations.

How long do planets Last before they are glassed, and how much loot do you get from the average planet full of facilities?

----------------------------------

BTW, does the 1% reduction in value from remote mining happen evey turn? I think it is, and if so, at no maintenance, I should be able to get a total of roughly
(NumMiners x 5/2 x Value^2)
if I'm doing my integration correctly. Note that that will be more accurate at higher "Value" values http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

oh, man I've said value too many times recently, and value has started to lose all meaning http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

---------------------------

If we don't allow Pirates to build resource facilities, it will be like a finite-resource game for them, and normal for the AIs. Cool!

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 March 2001).]

[DirectorTsaarx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(Originally posted by Suicide_Junkie)
BTW, does the 1% reduction in value from remote mining happen evey turn? I think it is, and if so, at no maintenance, I should be able to get a total of roughly (NumMiners x 5/2 x Value^2) if I'm doing my integration correctly. Note that that will be more accurate at higher "Value" values.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need integration; this is a simple sum of an arithmetic progression, multiplied by a basic mining rate.

The basic mining rate is:

NumMiningComponents*ComponentRate/100

I'm dividing by 100 to correct for the fact that the value is a percentage multiplier (i.e. 150% is really a 1.5 multiplier; however, we want to add the series from 1 to 150).

Sum of the arithmetic progression from 1% to Value% is:

(Value+1)*(Value/2)

So, if you're using a single Miner III (rate of 800 minerals per turn), you'd get:

8*(V+1)*(V/2) -or- 4*(V^2 + V)

For an asteroid belt with 150% mineral value, that comes out to 90,600 minerals. Obviously, any maintenance required for the mining ship needs to be subtracted from the total to get the actual net gain, but if you set the Pirates' maintenance to zero, that's not a problem http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You don't need integration; this is a simple sum of an arithmetic progression, multiplied by a basic mining rate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course, but thats the easy way.

--------------------------------
What do you think about not allowing Pirates to build resource facilities?
The remote mining giving you finite resources, after which you have to steal to survive?

------------------
As for implementing that no resource facil thing:
If we have a racial trait "Not a pirate" that allows access to the racial techs "Planet resource Extraction" and "Colony Construction", then you will need to research level 1 in that tech before you can build.
Now, the AI will have a problem with that setup.
But, What if the starting tech level for "P.R.E." and "C.C." was set to 1?
If it is a racial trait, then the Pirates might not get even the starting level! Then, everybody else starts out like normal, while the Pirates can't build resource facils!

I'm going to test that in about 3 hours when I get home.

[Nitram Draw]

Have you been able to make the "is a Pirate" work?

[mac5732]

In regards to not researching facilities, for my 2 cents, I think this would be mistake. They would need a means of resources
at least in beginning in order to build their
remote miners, ships etc. in order to plunder and pillage. How about if they are limited to only reaching level 1 resource facilities. Everything else they have to plunder or steal. This way they would have capability of obtaining some resources to get started but never enough to exist without miners or plundering or capturing. If possible you could put this as an option that way you could try both and see which one works better or to your personal preferences. However, I don't know if the computer could handle this without changing the other players traits. just an idea mac

[Suicide Junkie]

Oh, YEAH! Works like a charm!

All I did was
-add a racial trait "Not A Pirate"
-add a tech area "Not A Pirate"
--&gt; Starting level := 1
-linked racial trait to tech area
-Added requirement to mineral miner facil: Not A Pirate Tech Level 1

Started a game with 1 PIrates & 1 regular empire.

And the pirates started with no mineral miner facils on homeworld, no miner option on planetary build.
*end turn*
The normals: had miner facils & could build more!!!

--------------------------

Nitram: Just did! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mac: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They would need a means of resources at least in beginning in order to build their remote miners, ships etc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All the pirates need is to build an ES with a robo-miner.
OR.
All they need to do is build an ES with a pirate con-yard on it, which builds an efficient robominer base.

That is easy to do with your basic starting 50 K minerals, and you do get 200 resources per turn no matter what.

Once the first robo miner is operational, the pirates will build a ship to go and capture some stuff!
With no resource facilities on their homeworld, the pirates will have an initial research bonus over the other races, (even at 50% research racial trait). This will help them research ship capture early.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 20 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

So you basically made that tech a trait tech? Thats cool. Do you have to choose not a pirate for all the AI races in the game also?

[Suicide Junkie]

Re: the zip -&gt;
this is just the data folder, so you have to create a mod folder and put this in a "data" subfolder, then edit "path.txt" to point to the mod folder.
Note: These files are from V1.27, but there were no major changes to these files in v1.3, so it should work.
--------------------
You bet! The only problem is that the Trait restrictions don't work, so SE4 will accept a race with both "Is A Pirate" and "Not A Pirate".
The GM will just have to watch out for that.

One other thing is that all of the .EMPs have to be re-saved to include the "Not A Pirate" Trait.


If somebody would be so kind to start games with random empires & save the .EMPs from them, then edit them to include "not a pirate", then those could be included, and the mod would be complete.

------------------------
If you don't choose either trait "Is" or "Not" a pirate, then you will get the disadvantages of both, and none of the advantages. Good Luck to you if you try that!

Is A Pirate:
Gives
- Pirate intel Center
- Swashbucklers (boarding parties)
- Small space Yard

Not A Pirate:
Gives
- Colony components (rock/ice/gas)
- Mineral/Organic/Radioactives facilities
- Monolith Facilities
- Offensive Intel Projects
- Organic Population Boosting Facilities.

Note: By "offencive" intel, I mean projects that hurt the enemy. Information theft is normal, as well as defence projects.

Exceptions:
Pirates cannot Steal Tech via Intel, they must capture a ship.
Pirates may steal resources from the enemy via "bribe transports" & "Trade disruption", though the trade disruption may not be in thier best interests http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 20 March 2001).]

[Marty Ward]

This actually will allow the customization of the other traits as well. Imagine the organic races having ships with base costs in organics not minerals or no standard weapons availble to certain races or even customized resource extaction facilities. The possibilities are endless. This is great!

[Suicide Junkie]

Preventing the use of certain items is quite easy, just create a "Not an ____" racial trait & tech level, and require that. I don't know why I was the first person to do this (if I am). It only took 30 minutes to type in and debug!

All it requires now is for all of the pre-made race.EMP files to be re-generated.

Is there anybody here (an AI guy?) who's willing to do that?

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 21 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Apparently, SE4 gives each component/tech/etc a unique ID when it loads the files. You can see this if you re-order the first three tech areas. Rock-homeworld races are hard coded to get one free level of the first tech area. similarily with ice and gas.
If you add components to the beginning of you components file, and load a saved game, you will notice that all your components changed. Your design has "6 component #32s" but component #32 is no longer ion engine I, but is a WMG III, say.

The only problem you may have is with AI, choosing the latest component in the file instead of a better component that appears at the beginning.
It may be best to insert components beside similar ones, in order of value to the AI, and warn that it is incompatible with other saved games.

[Nitram Draw]

You might have been the first person to do it the easy way!
Do you know if you can have two techs/components withe thesame name in the same file but with different required techs? I would like to adjust the organic/crystal races facilities and ship cost to reflect their traits but I don't want to have to think of all new names. Think this would cause problems? I'm at work now or I would try it.

[Suicide Junkie]

All right, here is a basic set of .EMPs, covering a few (8) races converted to work with the Pirates mod.

Just save randomly generated empires, and then Add them to a new game, Edit them and check the "Not A Pirate" Trait.

That's all you have to do to get more. Please post them when you do.

[Suicide Junkie]

Arrrr!
Speak up ye scurvy forum goers!

[Nitram Draw]

I think I can do a few tomorrow morning. Got busy at work.

[Haven]

suicide_junkie
I tried to start a Pirate game Last night and all I got was a black system map http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

[Nitram Draw]

I have had that happen too. Did the rest of the game functions appear to work properly?

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, that happened the first time for me, too. Every time after that, it worked OK.

Just goto the filemenu and hit start new game.

[Nitram Draw]

SJ
I have some races saved with your pirate mod installed. How do I attach it, remember I am computer challanged http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Haven]

Nitram Draw
The rest of the game seemed to be working, but I deleted the SEIV installation and have not been able to get back to my computer to reinstall. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif
I still think this is an inovative way to play.

PS Has there been any progress on the nomad idea? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

[Nitram Draw]

I think the nomad should be a slight variation of the Pirate. First I think we must get the Pirate ironed out. SJ has some good ideas on components but I think they should be expanded on. I really have not had to much time to test my ideas, although I have a lot of them written but not tested.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
SJ
I have some races saved with your pirate mod installed. How do I attach it, remember I am computer challanged http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ack! Oops, posting error:

The third text box down on the posting screen (after username, and password) is for attachments. theres a little link to the right that says "upload your files".
Anything you upload will automatically be attached.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
I wanted to post it in the forum, sorry I'm getting old and I miss my mind the most.
I'll e-mail it to you if you want.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
I think the nomad should be a slight variation of the Pirate. First I think we must get the Pirate ironed out. SJ has some good ideas on components but I think they should be expanded on. I really have not had to much time to test my ideas, although I have a lot of them written but not tested.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seem to recall there being some sort of crystalline tech that extracted resources from stars. If that is a component that worked on a base in orbit of the star, then the nomads could use them (with really high output) to fund their empire. No need to colonize planets when you can get the resources from a star from the beginning.

[Puke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I seem to recall there being some sort of crystalline tech that extracted resources from stars. If that is a component that worked on a base in orbit of the star, then the nomads could use them (with really high output) to fund their empire. No need to colonize planets when you can get the resources from a star from the beginning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah, its a planetary facility. also, it is only as good as a monolith when in a trinary system. otherwise it cant keep up.

[Hydraa]

there is a solar collector facility for crystal. It works as long as there is a star in the system. When the star goes away (ie ringworl/sphereworld) the production goes away

[Suicide Junkie]

Has anybody tried giving a component that ability? Since it is not linked to planets, and it stacks, nomads could potentially use it for funds!

Nitram: See my post about 5 below

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 March 2001).]

[geoschmo]

Wow, 200 Posts. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

I couldn't resist.

Geo

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
Thanks, here are the races. I'll try to get the rest next week

[WhiteHojo]

My god!!! leave for a week and the ole Pirate thread jumps above 200... lots of good info and I've seen lots of progress made toward an actual Pirate Mod has been made - nice work SJ and the rest of you.

Hope to have some down time this weekend to see bout catchin up on the ideas since I was Last fiddlin with the Pirates.



------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[mac5732]

SJ, how did you work maintenance costs for the pirate ships, bases,etc, did you leave as in orig game or did you tweak-em. If you start with 50K and only get 200 each turn what was the maintenance cost for your units?
Did this effect the amount or type of ships or units to build in beginning or later on?
It sounds from all the Posts that there is a lot of interest in the Pirate mod and it looks like its really taking off. GREAT...
mac

[Suicide Junkie]

In the settings.txt, the minimum storage is 50K. The minimum income per turn is 200 of each.

I started with High starting resources, so With 100K, I built one ship and wasted the other 45K.

I went for no maintenance, and it is still very difficult. Building even one escort takes 2 years to fund (at 200 per turn), so the budget is critically important.

The costs are original, but I just took racial traits for zero maintenance, since money is so scarce in a pirates life.

[Suicide Junkie]

As if being a pirate wasn't hard enough!

A third of my navy was just wiped out by a supernova! A supply base, 4 LCs and an ES, plus an alien DS about to be analysed!

Well, at least I managed to deconstruct that medium carrier first!

I now have shields V, without any knowledge of physics http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif, plus medium fighters!

If only I can get the Eee to fund construction of those fighters somehow... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------
Uh, scratch that idea. I just saw my first Eee dreadnaught, and, um I've got a total of 7 LCs and 3 ES to my name, after the Wertreken Nova debacle.

Yeah, the Eee are in 1st, I'm 8th out of 8.
They've got 6 times my score http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think its time to spam mines everywhere now.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Lucas]

Are there plans to add resource producing components for the pirates? (via the Solar resource generation ability?)

Or is this ability going to be reserved for the nomad race, as pirates might not be very interested in solar farming?

It would certainly help the Pirates if they could use a component like that. Pirates would at least be able to generate some resources that way. Still, pirates aren't known for being conservative or industrious so generating their own resources might be out of character... but at least they wouldn't be quite so hampered by a lack of minerals.

Anyway, what are the plans in this department? This mod is shaping up to look very interesting.

Lucas

[Suicide Junkie]

I think that the best way to get resources is from a trade partner.

In my game, the Eee are first place and offered a trade alliance. I get 20% of their 200K resource output, and they get zilch. Of course, they do get insurance against me stealing all their ships and colonies.

I'm really getting hammered by intel right now, any suggestions?
I have a planet of aliens that the crysies started a riot on. The other alien planet (with SY and orbital factory) in the system is unhappy. I have one construction station in orbit, which is building troops right now, and I'm sending some ships in, but they are really needed on the front lines of the war against the Crysies in the next system down.

Whats the best way to stop the rioting with what little I have?

[Marty Ward]

To bad there isn't a way to give away some of that "Pirate Loot" you probably have stashed on some un-named moon. That would make'm happy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, now I need suggestions on what to change.

Changes so far for V1.1:

- Disabled Crystal tech solar generators (for pirates).
- Added a Basic Pirate Facility: Slave Labour Camp, gives 100 each resource, using solar generator ability.
- Enabled shield regeneration on Small Shields, just like on full size shields.

[Deathstalker]

Ok, just my 2cents worth, havn't read this thread much but a pirate race/option would be nice. The pirates/smugglers I remember the most are the ones from the StarWars novels. A lot of them had asteroid bases, would it be possible for some mod to be made to colonize asteroids?? (just for them, a colonize asteroid racial ability or some such.), then they could have home bases without actually colonizing planets or just using ships/miners. Now if I'm sticking my nose where it dosn't belong, just ignore this post http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif, but hopefully I havn't covered something already said and sparked a new idea instead.

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

[Suicide Junkie]

Unfortunately, asteroid colonies require code changes by MM.

You can always build a Starbase in an asteroid belt, (but storms are even better http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif), and with the pirate mentality, you don't have to have any planets - you just use captured ships by scrapping or retrofitting.

Most of my bases happen to be located on the system's star, if there is no good storm to put it in, and the central location makes it easier to attack anything in the system from there.

[mac5732]

SJ, in regards to your rioting,& how did you set up intel for pirates? Did you leave as normal or tweak? You may want to raise the intel points for pirates or increase the amount their intel centers put out. As for rioting, it sounds like you need another base to build troops. Did you take away the ability for pacification centers for the pirates? Maybe look into giving them a new facility for population supression instead of the pacification centers, same results, different name/amt of points. Let pirates build this facility on planets they capture but I would not make for the entire system. It would have to be built on each captured planet... I don't know if this could be modded like this.... just some ideas. mac

As for now, I would just send as few ships as you can spare put over l planet at a time
once they stop go to next. Do you have increase in builds by 150%, you may want to try this even though your next 10 turns or so will be slower building if you think your mail fleets can hold the line for this time.
transport troops as fast as you build them don't wait until you have large amounts, get them there as fast as possible with whatver you have, maybe these with a few ships would help... good luck, mac

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 25 March 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Thanks, its ok now. The rioting was an intel op, so only one planet was affected. Repeat building troops on the orbital factory, & a couple of BCs fixed it after 5 turns.

My only problem is budgetary now http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pirates are only allowed to do defensive & informational intel (no offensive), but immediately get a Pirate intel facility, that provides 1000 points.

[mac5732]

SJ, glad it worked out, I did think of 2 other possibilities, however, I have never tried them so don't know if they'll work or if they are possible.

1. Upload and deep six rioting pop. replace with happy slave pop from another world. Will take awhile for pop increase but should buy you time to build troops. Transports easier to use then warships. No guarantee new pop won't riot but should buy time.

2. Trade rioting world to another race for none rioting world. again no guarantee they won't also riot, but should buy time

I never tried either one so I don't know if they would work. If you try them let me know if they work. just some ideas Mac

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Upload and deep six rioting pop. replace with happy slave pop from another world. Will take awhile for pop increase but should buy you time to build troops.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a pirate, the pop increase will never happen. (-9% repro, -50% environment resist)
There are fewer than 5 worlds in my known universe that can support even 1% growth http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Plus, I can't build colony ships, so I naturally don't have control of many http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, there haven't been any suggestions lately, so I'm just gonna upload what I've got so far. The changes I mentioned a few Posts below are included as well as the EMPs kindly provided by:Nitram Draw

You'll have to move the emp's to your empires folder, but the zip structure should contain the entire mod directory tree.

Create a Pirates mod directory, and unpack the zip into there.

[Suicide Junkie]

You can always post ideas, and there's probably somebody out there who will suggest an easier way, or will identify potential problems, or may even have already done something similar.

I'm going to be away for a bit this week, since I have a lot of assignments due. If theres some suggestions, I'll do another Version of Pirates on the weekend.

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
Been able to work on some of my ideas for the pirate race. Finally got most of the stuff to take. Need to test them and can probably do it this coming weekend. I will try to post my ideas here tomorrow or wednsday. Would you take a look at them and comment? Also, have you decided if other facilities should be removed from the pirates, like the mining ones? That idea really allows the pirates to be customized.
A lot of my ideas seem very similiar to yours. One note though, there seems to be a limit on the number of components and techs you can add, so you can't go overboard adding pirate specific stuff. I had added a lot of items and had trouble getting them to show up.
You can e-mail me at jward@matteicomp.com if you like.

[Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz]

The "slave labor camp" facility raises the interesting prospect of a pirate/slaver class.

Slave trading was after all the mainstay of the classical pirate/buccaneer economy.

Has anyone tried to trade population in SEIV?

I'm sure that human players would be delighted to pay up for (say) methane breathers.

Would probably require code changes to the colonization/population ministers to have the AI bid for them?

Maybe should only allow trades from a modified cargo facility - "Slave Pen III" - to add to the atmosphere.

Full support for pop trading could make the pirate/slaver class a fully viable race option.

SJ, any chance of your mods making it into the next cut of the modpack?

------------------
Resistence is futile.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sure that human players would be delighted to pay up for (say) methane breathers.

Full support for pop trading could make the pirate/slaver class a fully viable race option.

SJ, any chance of your mods making it into the next cut of the modpack?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only problem is, they'd only pay once, then use their own reproduction to colonize new planets.
If there was a trade option with some sort of rental effect, then you could charge them 10,000 minerals per turn. Otherwise, you're not going to get much outta the deal http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't know anything about the modpack, sorry.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Any ideas on how to get the game to recognize a new intelligence tech tree?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd just copy/paste the intelops from the file, change the ability/amounts and you're done. Just make sure it requires the tech area "Is A Pirate" level 1.

[Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Only problem is, they'd only pay once, then use their own reproduction to colonize new planets.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do conquered/gifted populations retain their own racial reproduction rate or do they inherit that of their acquirer?

(I used to find the game too easy if I used troops in SEIII so haven't tried yet in SEIV. Planets acquired via "Puppet Political Parties" are soon too angry to judge.)



------------------
Resistence is futile.

[Hydraa]

A race that is brought into your empire appears to be genetically engineered to take all of your empire attributes except for the following 5 items that I have seen.

1. a different bitmap
2. a different racial name
3. a link to their former history of what they were
4. the ability to breathe their native atompshere
5. a different natural happiness modifier. (they will always have a trend to go to rioting unless you keep them happy)

Ships retain their bitmaps until retrofitted and then attain the appearance of the race that retrofitted it.

[Nitram Draw]

SJ,
I tried your copy and paste for intel but now I can't get the intelligence button to function. I changed some costs and added some projects so maybe that has an effect. Dam I wish I could test the game here at work http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif boss won't let me though.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I tried your copy and paste for intel but now I can't get the intelligence button to function. I changed some costs and added some projects so maybe that has an effect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copy/paste tends to introduce those sneaky little double blank line errors. check that first.

Other than that, try going slower, making only one change at a time, to see which change is causing the problem.

[Nitram Draw]

Some questions about the pirate race.
SJ has already removed the basic resource facilities for pirates. Are there any other base items that pirates should not have?
Should Pirates components be small and cheap or large and powerful?
What should the Pirate culture set up look like?
I have a bunch of stuff done that I can upload later this week for comment on. I have only had trouble with creating a separate Pirate Intel tech for cheap pirate type intel stuff, hijacking, blackmail etc.. Any ideas on how to get the game to recognize a new intelligence tech tree?

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok!

Here is an updated Pirates Mod.
Extract it to your Pirates folder, and unzip the empire zips found inside to your empires folder.

Changes:
-Reduced minimum resouce racial traits to 25%, for those pirates who want that extra bit of something useful http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
-Trade alliances max out at 10%. Leeching off of other empires via politics should not be encoraged so much. The Pirate's racial trait for trade should still be set at 50%
-Psychic racial traits are OK now, I disabled the Allegiance Subverters for Pirates.
-The minimum resoure production is now up to 500 resources per turn to assist at the beginning.

[Marty Ward]

Good job!
This is a fun way to play.

[Suicide Junkie]

Does anyone have ideas for new Pirate components or any changes or tweaks?

How about stories on how the game has gone so far, so we can work on balance?

Should the pirates get resource converters early on? Right away?

[Marty Ward]

The only things I have added are facilities, a bordello for happiness, a tavern for intelligence, stuff like that and a separate ship set with cheaper ships.
I removed the no colonizer restriction but always play pirate games with only colonize home planet and breathable atmosphere. If you choose rock/none or ice/CO2 you don't find many places to build. I also play with maintenance, 5%.
I haven't had much luck creating components on my own. I use yours. I wish I had more time to play/fiddle with them. I have much more time at work but I can't fire up the game http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif
I've played about 5-6 games as a pirate, only won once, haven't mastered the boarding,capturing and analizing process yet.
I like using a medium quadrant, small I meet other races to quick and large I am so far behind technically that my few ships get creamed.

[Suicide Junkie]

Things to discuss & maybe add:
- Pirate UPC (bordello)
- new ship hulls
Ideas on specifics anybody?

- Capture-capable fighters?

Perhaps the Pirates should not get any ship-building capability? Just build fighters & retrofit enemy vehicles.
I'll see if I can set a fighter-type hull to go through wormholes for the Pirates.
Nope Maybe just a really small ship size will do. Better yet, I'll try making mobile satellite http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Then wonder if they'll go through warp points? Nope. Oh well.

----------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I removed the no colonizer restriction but always play pirate games with only colonize home planet and breathable atmosphere. If you choose rock/none or ice/CO2 you don't find many places to build. I also play with maintenance, 5%.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you'll find that with mastery of the capture process, you'll find that planets are really easy to come by, and you'll be able to pull ahead in tech even in large galaxies.

There are two ways to go about capturing.
A) I just wanna new ship for my fleet.
B) I need technology.

Step 1) Shoot until the shields are down.
Step 2) Look for a self-destruct.
2.1) There is no self-destruct. Move in and capture.
2.2) There is a self-destruct. Goto step 3)

3 A) I just wanna ship, so pound the enemy ship to dust, but leave it with 10% hull strength left.
4 A) If the self-destruct is still there, blow the ship away, otherwise capture it.
5 A) Using the repair ship & Spaceyard Ships in your fleet, retrofit & repair. If you don't have the tech, repair the engines & send it to a planet to be rebuilt.
6 A) Rejoin the fleet & capture another ship.

3 B) I want the tech! So, shoot one weapon at a time, and try to use your smallest damage weapons only. In between shots, check for a Self-destruct.
4 B) As soon as the Self-destruct is gone, pounce & capture.
5 B) Using the Space Yard ship in your fleet, analyse the ship right away. (you won't be able to repair tech you don't have, then deconstruct & learn it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)

Tips:
-Colony ships rarely have shields or SDDs. Capture them whole, until someone mods the AI to put SDDs on 'em. *hint hint*
-Against Crystal armor, use a shield depleter, then capture the ship with the armor intact. SDDs will prevent this after 50- 70 turns.
-Get Shield Depleters & eventually, null-space weapons. Lucky shots can destroy the SDD, leaving lots of technological goodies intact.
-Always use overwhelming force. Never fight a fair battle. If you don't outnumber and outgun the enemy 3 to 1, you'll probably lose more than you gain.
-Don't Fight Large Fleets. Even if you greatly outnumber the enemy, you will still take casualties.
-Bring a minelayer with your capture fleet. Deploy mines to protect you while you repair your prizes & prepare to move out.
-Use troops to capture mineral miner worlds! Even one Mineral world can bring you untold riches. Put 1000 mines and fighters in orbit of this place!

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 01 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 01 April 2001).]

[WhiteHojo]

SJ - you have done one hell of a job on the little pirate idea. I finally have a break w/my work and I hope to be able to try out the "Pirate Mod" this week. Your changes look promissing and w/all the positive feedback I think you've got a winner on your hands.

good job...



------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Lemmy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:

-Colony ships rarely have shields or SDDs. Capture them whole, until someone mods the AI to put SDDs on 'em. *hint hint*

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uhm....and kill all those millions of innocent people on board??

[Suicide Junkie]

Blow up a few million of my people, or let them be captured by pirates to work in slave labour camps & double the size of the pirate empire? Hmmm.

---------------------
Thanks, WhiteHojo.
I still need all the ideas I can get. I'm looking on ways to slow down the expansion of the Pirates' colonies in the middle game. They really should be using space stations deep in enemy territory to stage raids, not just having planets all over http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
If somebody could get the Pirate AIs to put SDDs on the colony ships, then the pirates could get colonies fairly easily until turn 60 or 80, when the SDDs come out. Then you will be hard-pressed to capture colony ships intact & will have to use more troops & bases.

----------------------------

Question for anybody who's played the Pirate Mod (and even those who haven't):
Should the Pirates be encouraged to use Fighters more, and have much fewer capital ships?
Ie. if the Pirates have low-to-normal maintenance, then they will not be able to support many "Ships" Perhaps roughly one ship per planet. Then, we would give the Pirates many advanced, very large Fighter hulls, so that they can Capture ships and fight decently without maintenance.

Then, in the late game, You might have a Pirate fleet enter your system, with a single PD-heavy dreadnaught, one Minesweeper LC and one Carrier full of Pirate fighters & a con-yard.

We may need to give a maintenance-free "Pirate Outpost" base hull, so that the pirates can build secret Scrapper bases left and right without worrying about bankruptcy.

---------------------------

Does anybody know if the Crystalline Solar Generator's ability works on components? It isn't tied to a planet, but to the # of stars, just like the Solar Panels. We may have been sitting on the key to Nomadic races all along.

[Nitram Draw]

You have created a great mod.
My ideas for the perfect Pirate mod would be, in addition to your mod:
Only allowed to colonize tiny planets.
Not allowed any of the standard facilities, specifically resource, shipyard, intel or research.
Have more special facilities in the pirate motif that give resources, intel etc. but not be as good as the standard ones.
Be able to capture and ransom population.
Definately have special fighters.
More Pirate specific components, for additional flavor.
The only ones that can't be done, I think, are the restriction on the planet size and ransom. Maybe MM would consider adding planet size as an option along with atmosphere type and planet type but that may be asking a lot. Don't know how ransom would work.
I think Pirates should very rarely be able to stand up to a fleet. They should almost be forced to pick on individual or small Groups of ships.
The challenge I have found with Pirates is to try to win in an unconventional manner, which I have been very poor at but it is great fun trying.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not allowed any of the standard facilities, [such as] research.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Poll:
Who would like to see pirates with no research ability, other than from captured ships & planets?

A) Leave it alone
B) Severly restrict research (just like resources)
C) No research for Pirates!
D) No research, and get rid of the resource gathering slave labour camps too!
E) None of the above


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Marty Ward]

B

[dogscoff]

(My first post on this thread but I have read every single post)


&lt;Light bulb&gt;
Idea: Going back to a previous post on a different thread...

Make a government/police facility which is available to everyone except pirates (They're not very good at law and order=-).

This facility is cheap but essential, beacuse it keeps order within the system it is placed in. It is also destroyed if the planet is taken over by troops. Any planet in a system without a friendly government facility will inevitably fall to rioting and revolt within say, 7 turns. Pirates can then conquer and colonise as many planets as they like, but they can't hang on to them. They can only get a few turns' worth of mining / research out of the planet before they have to strip it/ ransom (ie trade) it and leave.
&lt;/Light Bulb&gt;

&lt;Light bulb II&gt;
Another idea:
When the map / scenario editor comes out maybe it would be possible to mod pirate / nomad homeworlds to explode after a certain number of turns, so that they are forced to take to a space-borne way of life.
&lt;/Light bulb II&gt;


------------------
--
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Lemmy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:

&lt;Light bulb II&gt;
Another idea:
When the map / scenario editor comes out maybe it would be possible to mod pirate / nomad homeworlds to explode after a certain number of turns, so that they are forced to take to a space-borne way of life.
&lt;/Light bulb II&gt;

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's a good one!! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
let them set things up for a few turns and then BOOM!! hehe....



[This message has been edited by LemmyM (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Make a government/police facility which is available to everyone except pirates (They're not very good at law and order=-).

This facility is cheap but essential, beacuse it keeps order within the system it is placed in. It is also destroyed if the planet is taken over by troops. Any planet in a system without a friendly government facility will inevitably fall to rioting and revolt within say, 7 turns. Pirates can then conquer and colonise as many planets as they like, but they can't hang on to them. They can only get a few turns' worth of mining / research out of the planet before they have to strip it/ ransom (ie trade) it and leave.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know if you can set things up so a planet will riot on its own automatically, yet not do that with a facility.
An easier way to implement the first parts of that would be to make a new troop size:
Name: Police squad.
Size: 2 kt.
Cost: 10 Minerals

Then you could make the AI pump out say 50 of them in one or two turns, and they would ensure the population is jubilant, Plus, they would provide more hitpoints for ground combat, giving the militia more time to fight back!

I already use Police units, but a major part of their cost is the built-in hull price (100 minerals). A 2kt unit with 10 mineral base cost +20 kt cockpit means I can build around 100 a turn, and even though they have only 1 ECM, or one armor, they can dodge shots or absorb them for quite a few combat turns. Even if the militia dies first, the police can usually hold out for reinforcements from the new militia next turn. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And they keep the population from rioting at the same time!

[Nitram Draw]

You may be able to do it by giving the pirate culture a large negative happiness modifier, say -40. This would require them to build something to keep the population happy.
I recall there being some problem with negatives modifiers though so this may not work.

[dogscoff]

How about if you made something that is present in all systems (like a space port, or better yet a stellar object*(see note)) that modifies hapiness by -80% or something, and then the law& order facility / unit could just be a +80% happiness modifier.

Obviously that 80% is just a number I made up and the real figure would have to be worked out by trial and error to give however many turns of stability before social collapse, but there must be a way:
Reading the early Posts on this thread I initially thought "No way are they going to do all that stuff" but it's almost all been implemented one way or another. It amazes me the amount of mods you can make with just those little text files.

(When I say "you" by the way, I mean "someone else". I'm strictly a back seat modder I'm afraid=-)


*note:
I know you can modify the way systems are generated and the object put into them. Would it be possible to invent a new type of invisible, untouchable "planet" that has no image and no effect other than the happiness modification, and which is present in every single system.

--
&lt;Edit&gt;
Sorry Nitram, didn't mean to ignore your post: My computer didn't display it until after my post had gone through. If your way can be implemented, it looks a lot less work than what I just suggested.
&lt;/Edit&gt;
--

------------------
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

No problem.
Actually population unhappiness fits right in with the Pirate motif. All true pirates would rather be pillaging and plundering. The ones left behind should get real pissed http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nitram Draw]

Is it just me or is it taking longer to load and reply to this topic?

[Suicide Junkie]

I lost the shrapnel server, couldn't post or view anything, now that its back, the thread loaded just as fast as ever.

BTW, Here is the new Pirates&Nomads mod.

We need to redo all of the empires again, so that they include [not having] the Nomad racial trait.
If you want to play without the nomads & use the old Pirate EMPs, just remove the Last racial trait from the file ("Is A Nomad")

Note that the nomads are distinctly lacking in special components, I need ideas.

Also, this is bound to need a lot of adjustments. Consider it a pre-beta http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Oops. I just fixed a capitalization error in the mod.

Note: Installing this over top of the Pirates mod will invalidate your savegame!!
Use a different mod directory.

Also, I've just gone and fixed up some EMPs for the mod, so you can get started playing it right away http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

To add more, just start a random game, save the random empires, then edit thier EMPs to include the "Is Normal" Trait (ie. not pirate, not nomad). Save once more, then post them to the board.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Man, I just don't get this Attachment manager thing http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Here is the latest Pirates & Nomads Mod.

I have just realized that the nomads are in pretty big trouble at the beginning, since they don't get ship-based spaceyard. I'm giving them the same mini-shipyard as the pirates, and that is included here.

[Baron Munchausen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I lost the shrapnel server, couldn't post or view anything, now that its back, the thread loaded just as fast as ever.

BTW, Here is the new Pirates&Nomads mod.

We need to redo all of the empires again, so that they include [not having] the Nomad racial trait.

If you want to play without the nomads & use the old Pirate EMPs, just remove the Last racial trait from the file ("Is A Nomad")

Note that the nomads are distinctly lacking in special components, I need ideas.

Also, this is bound to need a lot of adjustments. Consider it a pre-beta http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think plain old 'Nomadic' would work for the name of the racial trait. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif And as far as components go, some sort of solar sail/solar collector combo would be good so they have absolutely minimal need for supplies. Then make 'small' Versions of everything you can think of and set them up to research fighters very early. Fighters don't pay maintenance but can travel around in-system on their own power. All they would need is a few small transports with fighter bays to ferry them through warp points. Now, equip fighters with everything. Small sensors, small cloaking devices, small solar sail/collector, etc. When they can do almost everything a ship can do and still pay zero maintenance they will help give the nomads enough kick to compete with the other races. I have yet to test if 'Solar Resource Generation' works on a component. Does it? If it does then the nomads should get it. Research and Intelligence are the weak point. I hope MM will let these abilites work for components sometime soon. Just keep requesting it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Further thoughts:

Maybe they can have a unique fighter hull at the start of the game. Make it larger than a standard 'large' fighter but with a lower engine limit so it's not so hot in combat. This combined with the solar sail/collector component could be a really useful advantage to get them started. The other thing they really need has to be added by MM. We need some way to let population carried in a vehicle grow like population on a planet.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

-Names are easy to change: Normal, Pirate, Nomad.
-solar sail/solar collector combo
-'small' Versions of everything + fighters very early. Small sensors, small cloaking devices, small solar sail/collector, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have yet to test if 'Solar Resource Generation' works on a component. Does it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope thats the first thing I tried http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Research and Intelligence are the weak point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Definitely, research is a problem, but intel is not. When the nomads lose their home planet, they will lose contact with all other races, and intel will not be a factor.
Research will have to be done on the homeworld, and later stolen because of how the game works.

-unique fighter hull, larger than a standard 'large' fighter.
(instead of lower engine limit, multiple engines per move)

(I really don't like arbirtary limits being imposed on stuff. This way you can decide for yourself how much to spend on engines)

Thats a lot of good ideas. I'll get them started now.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

-Names are easy to change: Normal, Pirate, Nomad.
-solar sail/solar collector combo
-'small' Versions of everything + fighters very early. Small sensors, small cloaking devices, small solar sail/collector, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have yet to test if 'Solar Resource Generation' works on a component. Does it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope thats the first thing I tried http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Research and Intelligence are the weak point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Definitely, research is a problem, but intel is not. When the nomads lose their home planet, they will lose contact with all other races, and intel will not be a factor.
Research will have to be done on the homeworld, and later stolen because of how the game works.

-unique fighter hull, larger than a standard 'large' fighter.
(instead of lower engine limit, multiple engines per move)

(I really don't like arbirtary limits being imposed on stuff. This way you can decide for yourself how much to spend on engines)

Thats some good stuff. I'm on it.