Balance Mod Available for SE:V

[Q]

I conquered another colony with 995M population. According to your settings.txt this should have given 20 militia. But there were only 3 as it is defined in the standard settings.txt.
For a reason completely mysterious to me the game seems not to use your settings definitions.
Yes I am sure to play your mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif and the components and all other things are working as expected.
PS: I checked the population cargo space is indeed 40kT/M as you expected from your modified settings.txt file. Therefore it is only a problem with the militia not the entire settings file.

[Spoo]

Is militia based off of the total population, or the population of the owner's race?

[Suicide Junkie]

Migration might be an issue too. Might be that only natives are rising up as militia...

[Shadowstar]

Either that or it looks like there might be a misplaced decimal in the code or something.

It also seems that ground combat does not occur in simultaneous games.

[Captain Kwok]

I actually suspect the militia settings are hard-coded despite the values available in settings.txt...

[Phoenix-D]

Captain Kwok said:
I actually suspect the militia settings are hard-coded despite the values available in settings.txt...



Wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of the values in that file seem to be SE4 leftovers.

[zaracyn]

Captain Kwok,

I emailed you on this, but I thought I'd ask here too...

I've noticed an error in-game when using your Balanced mod:

"Access violation at address 00459F96 in module 'se5.exe'. Read of address 00000004"

This occurs consistantly when I attempt to save my empire file during a game. It only appears to occur with the mod itself and not on the game.

I'm using the latest version of SE5 (1.08) and the Balanced mod (0.93). I'm also using the Tampa Bay Sound effects mod as well.

If anyone else has noticed this and fixed it, let me know!

(great mod's otherwise, btw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

[Q]

I tried it outside of the balance mod, where I just changed the militia number in a small test mod but left everything else unchanged. No effect, it is still the militia number of the original setting.

[Q]

Two suggestions to your really great mod, which I enjoy a lot:
1.) IMO all point defense weapons should require the corresponding point defense tech level. Now it is only the point defense cannon.
2.) Standard armor IMO is very strong compared to special armor (emissive, stealth, scattering) and shields. Of course shields should be weaker per kT structure as they regenerate after combat while armor has to be repaired. But at present this difference is very big.

Thank you Kwok for your excellent work!

[Captain Kwok]

I was originally going to "grid" the PD Beam and PD Blaster with both Energy Stream/Pulse Weapons and Point Defense, but because of the research display issues with multiple tech requirements I dropped the extra level reqs on the PD side. I think what I will do though is increase it to level 3 or so for the PD requirement instead of level 1.

The idea for armor was to provide the player with the viable alternative of using all armor if they wanted to in place of shields if they had the repair capacity and desire to do so.

If you figure in the regeneration rate for the Organic Armor and the damage reduction potential for the Crystalline Armor - it should work out about even with regular armor. Although I suppose you can argue that perhaps they should have a slight advantage being racial techs - but again they contribute to lower build times and the racial hulls have less maintenance so they might not need any more benefit.

The Stealth and Scattering armor has the special abilties as well, which is really why you're adding them and not for their protective ability. Emissive Armor is underpowered and I'll increase it's base structure. It'll range from 10-20 HP/kT, so it should be equivalent to armor in terms of protection when you figure in the emissive ability.

[Raapys]

Doesn't the engines work sort of strange? With only a 'bonus movement' difference on the higher tech engines you really just need one of them on each ship and can fill in the rest with Ion engines, which also have more supply capacity.

[Captain Kwok]

That's an SE:V bug though. If it doesn't get fixed soon than I'll probably fudge around with movement amounts as a workaround. However, play "fair" for now and use all of the engines as if the bonus movement would only apply if you had all the same engines.

[Suicide Junkie]

Can you not just add a bonus move ability of zero points to fix this?

That was the answer in SE4 too, IIRC.

[Captain Kwok]

Yeah, that will work fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I've posted v0.94 of the Balance Mod for download here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.94 (04 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Changed - Increased structure for Emissive Armor
2. Fixed - Engine movement bonuses will now only apply when all engines are of the same type
3. Fixed - Error in AI research scripts
4. Changed - Made some changes to AI Empires racial traits and weapon choices
5. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

It turns out the AI not researching its own weapon techs was a mistake on my part but it's been corrected so no more wasted research points.

The upcoming v0.95 will be a more significant update and will be released shortly after the next SE:V patch is out next week.

[aegisx]

Kwo, I sent you a PM.

[Captain Kwok]

aegisx said:
Kwok, I sent you a PM.

And I sent you an e-mail. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raapys]

Nice fixes with 0.94. Can't wait for the game patch and next Balance mod update, it's gonna be a blast!

[AAshbery76]

The A.I is doing nothing(dead)with this update?

[aegisx]

I checked, the AI is indeed doing nothing.

[aegisx]

Script_AI_Lists.txt(0107): Begin Function AI_Generate_Lists() ---------------------
Script_AI_Lists.txt(0114): Return TRUE
Script_AI_Lists.txt(0115): Sys_Get_Empire_Home_System()
Script_AI_Lists.txt(0115): *** Call Sys_Get_Empire_Home_System returned ERROR ***
Script_AI_Lists.txt(0115): *** "Set" returned ERROR ***
Script_AI_Lists.txt(0107): End Function AI_Generate_Lists ---------------------
Drushocka_Main_Script.txt(0080): *** Call AI_Generate_Lists returned ERROR ***
Drushocka_Main_Script.txt(0080): *** "Call" returned ERROR ***

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Use this empire files until I can find out what went wrong:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/Empires.zip

Extract to your balance mod folder!

[aegisx]

That seems to be working.

I sent you an email about a possible ship design bug.

[Captain Kwok]

Just an update on the situation, but I've been getting inconsistent behaviour with the script parser - sometimes I'm getting errors reported when compiling and then I'll close and restart and the errors won't exist anymore. And it's happening with both the stock files and the mod files.

Anyway the files I posted earlier were the v0.93 ones, but I'll get v0.94 back up in a little bit.

[aegisx]

Non-Agression pacts (standard ones) mean no colonization in each other systems by default. I'm not sure the AI checks this, or it doesn't re-evaluate after sending its ships when it makes a treaty.

[fdlu]

Possible bug in 0.94 with fighter movement/attack behaviour... ????

Hi all,
I am not sure as I do only fiddle a little bit with the game until holiday when I will hopefully get time to play.

Until then I am only trying to get a hang on the UI and some basics.

However I have now noticed with 0.94 that the fighters seem to behave VERY strangly !!!!

I only wanted to test how fighters work, possibly also point defense (as it only seems to target seekers but not fighters, but this seems to be a general bug as I read about this somewhere)

As of this I created a basic small fighter and a basic slow target (various configuratins with and without weapons), set it near the fighters (tacitcal battle) and waited.

However, all that the fighters do is RUNNING TO THE EDGE AWAY FROM THE TARF`GET. Manual attack orders are ignored. Movement I am not sure but it seem that after they reach the wapoint they run. fighter vs fighter both sides run away immediately.
Tested various strategies, but they ALWAYS run.

I am pretty sure that I tested it before with 0.92(?) and they attacked just fine.

Any ideas on this strange behaviour or what I am possibly doing wrong. Any help welcome. Maybe some instructions how to test test/set up.

BTW, a question on the Interface/display.
Would it be possible to set up the display for the colonies to show instead of varoius lines with mining, farming etc. instead only one line like 1 x mining, 2 x farming ?
This kind of display would be VERY helpful. Possibly as an optional display type.

[Q]

Lack of supplies?
Lack of ordnance?

[fdlu]

Thanks.
That is the problem.
I am only trying out in the simulator.
As all other ships come with full
supplies and ordnance when tested, I had not noticed.

I cannot build a carrier yet and I intended to try the fighters as kind of a low cost defense force which can
be replaced fast.

How can I test them ?
They have engines and supply and ordnace storage
build into the design.

Edit.
I can build a Cargo Transport, which is ok as they now have s+o, but I should be able to test the fighters alone.

If I combine them with another attack ship they have zero s+o.

[Dizzy]

fdlu said:
Possible bug in 0.94 with fighter movement/attack behaviour... ????

Hi all,
I am not sure as I do only fiddle a little bit with the game until holiday when I will hopefully get time to play.

Until then I am only trying to get a hang on the UI and some basics.

However I have now noticed with 0.94 that the fighters seem to behave VERY strangly !!!!

I only wanted to test how fighters work, possibly also point defense (as it only seems to target seekers but not fighters, but this seems to be a general bug as I read about this somewhere)

As of this I created a basic small fighter and a basic slow target (various configuratins with and without weapons), set it near the fighters (tacitcal battle) and waited.

However, all that the fighters do is RUNNING TO THE EDGE AWAY FROM THE TARF`GET. Manual attack orders are ignored. Movement I am not sure but it seem that after they reach the wapoint they run. fighter vs fighter both sides run away immediately.
Tested various strategies, but they ALWAYS run.

I am pretty sure that I tested it before with 0.92(?) and they attacked just fine.

Any ideas on this strange behaviour or what I am possibly doing wrong. Any help welcome. Maybe some instructions how to test test/set up.

BTW, a question on the Interface/display.
Would it be possible to set up the display for the colonies to show instead of varoius lines with mining, farming etc. instead only one line like 1 x mining, 2 x farming ?
This kind of display would be VERY helpful. Possibly as an optional display type.



You might have a treaty of non aggression... or if attacking a planet, you might have a treaty where you arnt allowed to bombard the planet.

[Fyron]

Was there a need to quote that entire post just for a 2 sentence reply?

[AAshbery76]

The fleet strategy seems to be automatic retreat in the mod,even when most of the fleet is fine to attack.I've also had the A.I attack planets only to retreat at the start of battle many times.

I didn't notice these fleet retreats in the standard 1.8.

[Captain Kwok]

The AI file issue was due to new additions that I had added in the scripts that only work with the 1.12 se5.exe file. Anyhow I've re-posted v0.94 with working empire files for SE:V v1.08

Updated v0.94:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

-----

AAshberry: Did you notice if they had ordnance or not? The other explanation is that the leader might be getting hurt and the fleet is not breaking formation. I'm going to do some strategy tweaking to fix stuff like that today.

[AAshbery76]

I think all the treaties that have no included should be taken out of the mod.It just hurts the A.I's ability to wage war.A lot of the A.I's in my games can't hurt me because they have no bombardment treaties.

[Captain Kwok]

I'll be doing some more treaty work in the upcoming version. My long-term goal is for the AI to build treaties in steps based on their anger level towards the player.

[Captain Kwok]

I was thinking of changing the armor sizes to the following for the next update:

Armor 10kT
Emissive Armor 10kT
Organic Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Crystalline Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Scattering Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Stealth Armor 20kT (from 30kT)

Any armor abilities would of course be adjusted with the size.

The goal in this change is to make some of the speciality armors more accessible for smaller vehicles.

Also, should we get small versions of the racial trait armors?

[Timstone]

I like the idea, exept for the Organic and Crystaline armours. I think those armours a pretty powerfull as they are.
But then again I'm not such an avid user of those armours, so I might want to give them a litte nudge toward uselessness...
Long live Temporal Science!!

[Raapys]

Lowering the size wouldn't directly make them more powerful though, when the ability advantages are lowered as well. For that matter I'd say go to 10kT on all of them; so much easier to fit in than 20kT.

[Captain Kwok]

Just an FYI:

I probably won't get the chance to finish v0.95 tonight, but it should be available for tomorrow.

It will be save-game compatible, although with a few of the changes you'll need to redo/edit some of your ship designs to utilize the extra space.

[Uncle_Joe]

Thanks for the update. In the meantime, will .93 or .94 work with the new patch (even if it doesnt give the latest and greatest AIs?)?

Thanks again for your efforts!

[Baron Munchausen]

Captain Kwok said:
I'll be doing some more treaty work in the upcoming version. My long-term goal is for the AI to build treaties in steps based on their anger level towards the player.



I hope there is more available than just anger level? Can the AI also look at relative scores or other measures of power in-game? What we need is an AI smart enough to sue for peace when it realizes that the enemy is just too strong to beat. The way the AI has worked to date, all alien races seem to be unconditionally, suicidally committed once they go to war.

[StarHunter5]

Does Your Balance Mod work with the patch v1.13?

[Baron Munchausen]

Captain Kwok said:
I was thinking of changing the armor sizes to the following for the next update:

Armor 10kT
Emissive Armor 10kT
Organic Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Crystalline Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Scattering Armor 20kT (from 30kT)
Stealth Armor 20kT (from 30kT)

Any armor abilities would of course be adjusted with the size.

The goal in this change is to make some of the speciality armors more accessible for smaller vehicles.

Also, should we get small versions of the racial trait armors?



Reducing the size of the 'special' armors is a good idea. Small ships need to be able to use them so that racial traits are more valuable in the early game. Increasing the size of regular armor is not a good idea. The new stock default of 5kt for armor, supply storage, and ordnance storage is a good idea. Why switch to the higher 'resolution' size increments if you're not going to use it? With everything 10kt or larger you're just playing SE 3 ship design with an altered interface.

Small versions of the racial trait armors would be good if they work. Remember that abilities like regen never did work in units with SE IV. Have you tested if they work in SE V?

[Dizzy]

Awesome work on the mod, Cap Kwok! Keep it up!!!

Q., Will your .95 mod work with the new SEV Patch 1.13?

[Raapys]

The upcoming version will work with 1.13, the current version is likely to work as well, I'd wager, seeing as everything's save-game compatible etc.

Think I'll have to run a stock 1.13 game to see how stock works now, too.

[Captain Kwok]

Baron Munchausen said:...Can the AI also look at relative scores or other measures of power in-game? What we need is an AI smart enough to sue for peace when it realizes that the enemy is just too strong to beat... The new stock default of 5kt for armor, supply storage, and ordnance storage is a good idea...

The AI can also consider the score of the other player in making its decisions. I would probably use that as a modifier of the anger level towards the player as it is used know for requests etc. I kept regular armor at 10kT (as it has been in BM) because of the fixed number of armor slots. Since the smallest increment for ship size per tech level is 25kT for ships/WPs and 10kT for Sats - you don't encounter that same 5kT extra space very often and you still have the 5kT supply/ordnance storage anyway. I'd figure the abilities will work on units because they are treated individually.

Balance Mod v0.94 should be good to go with 1.13 - it just won't take advantage of some AI fixes between 1.08 and 1.13...

[Captain Kwok]

Woops - forgot about those pesky settings.txt changes in v1.12-1.13...

You can download an updated settings.txt file to make the Balance Mod v0.94 work with SE:V v1.13:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/settings.zip

Extract to your Balance Mod data folder!

Update tonight if we're lucky, but tomorrow most likely.

[Raapys]

As it should be, giving an impression of organic ships and not just organic components.

And 5 turns into 1.13 stock I noticed the AI is still not prevented from creating laughable treaties. Sigh.

[Yimboli]

Captain Kwok said:
AI can also consider the score of the other player in making its decisions. I would probably use that as a modifier of the anger level towards the player as it is used know for requests etc.



Score is not, imho, an accurate portrayal of military prowess. It'd be nice if that computation was seperate... as an example, moo3 would look at the ships you have in reserves. However, that system is flawed since 100 colony ships can't fight a war, and also a higher industrial capacity can compensate for having lower reserves at the start of war and eventually win the war given enough time. Is there a way to mod something like this in?

[Suicide Junkie]

Scoreweighting.txt

For GGMod, I've even thrown in:
Score Factor - Number Of Allies := 200000.0
Score Factor - Number Of Enemies := -200000.0

[raynor]

Kwok, you are absolutely amazing. I patched and loaded my Balance Mod 0.94 game and got some sort of warning. Then, I came here and saw the updated 'Settings.Txt'. I installed that, and my savegame loaded like a charm.

You are a prince among men! Thanks much for your work on this Balance Mod!

[aegisx]

Kwok, did you fix up the ship design function that checks if a new design is needed? (As per the email I sent you).

Thanks

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Version 0.95 of the Balance Mod is available. It will only work with v1.13 of SE:V and note that it is save-game compatible, but you'll need to re-design some of your ships to take advantage of same changes to armor size and ship requirements.

I tried out a couple of game for 10-15 turns in both beta 1.13 and retail 1.13 with no AI problems. Let me know if you encountered any weird AI behaviour!

http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.95 (08 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Changed - Decreased the engines per move value for Destroyers and Light Cruisers
2. Changed - Decreased the max number of engines allowed for Destroyers and Light Cruisers
3. Changed - Reduced Organic and Crystalline Armor to 10kT
4. Changed - Reduced Stealth and Scattering Armor to 20kT
5. Changed - Carriers now only require 30% of their hull devoted to fighter bays
6. Changed - Brave and Cowardly traits now provide small Combat To Hit bonus/penalty
7. Removed - Ordnance generation from Ordnance Storage containers
8. Changed - Supply/Ordnance Storage components can be placed on Weapon Platforms
9. Added - Supply storage for Weapons Platform Computer Core
10. Changed - Re-worked main Empires weapon selection
11. Added - AI fixes/improvements from SE:V v1.08 to v1.13
12. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

[Captain Kwok]

You can also find the AI Scripts here in the resources section:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

Note they will only work with SE:V v1.13 and not v1.08!

[Uncle_Joe]

Thanks for the update!

I still have yet to really get 'into' SE5 yet, but your work looks excellent from what I've seen so far.

Thanks again!

[Q]

Thank you Kwok for your excellent and huge work!

[AngleWyrm]

I can't start this version, I get a pop-up box that says can't find stuff in main record in mainstrings.txt. Do I need a newer version of mainstrings.txt?

Edit: Problem solved -- I deleted the old BalanceMod folder, then re-installed, and now it works.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/468563-mainstrings.jpg

[Q]

Small bug in version 0.95: the defense modifiers of stealth and scattering armor don't stack as the description suggests.
I don't know if this is a problem of the game itself or the mod: the savegames keep the original version the game was started (in my case 0.92) in the description of the game type even after saving it under the new version. Not a big problem but might be a little confusing.

[Captain Kwok]

I've accidently assigned the same identifier to Stealth/Scattering Armor so they are not stacking when combined. Thanks for the catch!

[AAshbery76]

The mod is stopping me from using the emp files for the stock empires, it says too many research points used.

[Captain Kwok]

AAshbery76 said:
The mod is stopping me from using the emp files for the stock empires, it says too many research points used.

You won't be able to use stock empire files for a number of reasons, including different tech costs, tech tree, and racial costs to name a few. However I will be including some 2000 pt default empires for each of the main empires in the next version.

[AAshbery76]

The turn times since 1.13 are taking ages compared to 1.8,two or three times longer.I don't know if this is a patch problem in stock or the mod.

[Raapys]

I've noticed the same thing. I believe it is because combats now doesn't stop anymore before the time runs out, which makes AIs in war take forever on their turns because of the slow combat resolution system. Definitely needs a huge fix, it's become unplayable for me when a single empire can spend up to like 5 minutes some turns when they're at war( and someone always are).

The problem is actually twofold, though. First, battles themselves are taking way too long( is AI vs AI combat actually any faster than 8x strategic combat for the player? ), and secondly the AI spend many combats each turn hunting down fleeing enemy ships; combats that can last the full 5 minutes allowed.

In my case an AI empire spent 8 combats in a single turn hunting down a single harmless, fleeing frigate with 5 of his ships. Needless to say, that turn took forever to process. And that was *one* empire and *one* ship.

Should be a #1 priority for Aaron, as I see it. Most annoying part is that the AI isn't even using any of that time for 'intelligent thinking', he's just using it for chasing after a few unimportant ships.

[Santiago]

I've also noticed this right on the first turn of a saved game in the balance mod after patching to 1.13 and .95

[AngleWyrm]

I just lost a fleet to zero supplies. I had about ten frigates (six meson guns, four missile frigates), and when combat started they all had zero supplies. The one opponant frigate ruined three of the fleet, and the rest are stuck because of no supplies. My fleet didn't fire a single shot.

According to the changelog (http://www.strategyfirst.ca/downloads/patches/se5patch_v113.txt),

v1.04 fixed - Fleet were using more supply than they should.
v1.07 fixed - Fleets were regaining supply and ordnance after each turn with no Resupply Depot present.

At this point, I'm not particularly interested in wasting another four hours of my life.

Edit: Ok, it's tomorrow and I'm over it. Still kind of sucky tho.

[Baal]

This Balance mod rocks. I like how organic tech actually gives me more value than just normal tech (especially in the armor and weapon section). It makes it worth while to spend racial points on getting organic access. I also like the fact that larger ships need more engines. In general I find this mod much more enjoyable than Vanilla SE5.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I've posted another update to the Balance Mod:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

It's a small update to fix a couple of items, sort of addresses long AI turn times, and increases the AI's design flexibility a bit.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.96 (09 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Fixed - Scattering Armor and Stealth Armor did not add their combat to hit bonuses
2. Added - AI Defense Ships implemented with se
3. Fixed - AI was using more Point-Defense than they needed
4. Changed - Reduced maximum combat time to 180 seconds
5. Changed - Space Combat Map Radius to 1500
6. Changed - Tweak AI Colony Type selection some more
7. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

[Kamog]

Thank you Captain Kwok, for all your great work on the Balance Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Raapys]

Thanks, much needed. I suppose Aaron is aware of the issues with way too long AI combat times in turn processing?

[AAshbery76]

Thank god for this mod.

[Captain Kwok]

Raapys said:
Thanks, much needed. I suppose Aaron is aware of the issues with way too long AI combat times in turn processing?

Yes. Item #9 on the v1.14 changelog should eliminate most of the extra combats that are drawing out the AI turns.

[MisterBenn]

Yes, thanks for the continuing effort poured into the mod.

I have comments from my current game in progress: it was started with 1.08/0.94 and is now 1.13/0.95 -

1) My Weapon Platforms with L2 APBs are drawn wrongly during space combat. When enemies attack my planets, they fire once the enemy fleet is appropriately close to the planet as they should, but the green beams are not drawn as originating from the planet, instead they emerge downwards from out in space somewhere and hit the ships! Obviously only a cosmetic issue, and could well be a vanilla issue rather than for the Balance Mod.

2) I still have troubles with the lack of expansion of the AI. I'm playing this game with Hard AI / no bonus. About 50 turns in, I have APBs, High Energy Weapons 3 and counting, and Extraction level 3 in all resources for robo-mining, and light carriers. I've seen level 2 DUCs, but apart from that I have seen no technological advances of any kind from the AI players - I've killed 2 minor races and am at war with the Eee. I realise that this is a previously known topic, and could also be caused by my upgrading SE5 and Balance during the progress of my game too... but that's my experience.

Still watching this mod avidly though!

[Raapys]

I suggest starting a fresh game, MisterBenn. There has been *significant* updates to AI research etc. in the latest versions, and they probably wont work optimally in a save game from the older versions, even though the patches are 'savegame compatible'.

I also suggest putting computer bonus up to low or medium; there's still some issues, like fog of war, that handicaps the AI far more than the player.

Kwok, it's great he's getting rid of exessive combats, but is there any chance he'll also try to optimize the AI vs AI combat code itself? It appears to be running, at best, no faster than 8x speed, probably not even half that at times.

[Captain Kwok]

Faster strategic combats is probably on the to-do list with reducing combat replay file sizes.

MisterBenn: What are the scores of the AI players like? For 50-turns in on what I imagine is a low-tech cost game they should have at least 10 planets and 50-60 ships.

[PDF]

Hi
Cpt Kwok,
Can we upgrade the Balance mod version during a (solo) game with no ill effect ?

And kudos for the good work ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[neofit]

Great job Captain Kwok. My last save that took 6m50s to compute with 0.95 is now resolved in 30s in 0.96. I'm a bit wary of reducing the combat length to 150s though.

[Captain Kwok]

It's sort of a temporary measure until the next SE:V patch is out and the attack order gets cleared properly. When that happens I'll probably bump up the space combat radius to 2000 and see how that works with the 3 minute max combats.

---

Any Balance Mod releases with the same first digit in the tenths column (ie 0.9x) is saved-game compatible. Although if you updated from v0.94 to v0.95/v0.96, you might need to update your designs to take advantage of the extra space that was made by a few changes.

[Raapys]

Nah, shouldn't be a problem. Any real combat is resolved in under a couple of minutes; it's just the 'chasing combats' that lasts for more, from my experience.

[MisterBenn]

I thought maybe upgrading was my trouble. It's a good excuse to start a new game!

I'll try 1.13/0.96 from tonight.

Regarding the Strategic Combat changes: in that last game, I could pursue a colony ship with my frigate, and in a pursuit my ship would chase and get the first shot in right as the colony ship escaped the border. I found that it would consistently take two combat sessions running to kill one unguarded colony ship, and that is with the instant hit APB and a full set of engines. With the reduced combat time and new retreat circle, will it be possible to catch these craft at all?

[Captain Kwok]

I agree and I want (and already had) to increase the map radius size - but I dropped it a bit to reduce the AI processing times since they might enter such a scenario a half-dozen times per turn etc. Anyhow brief testing seem to work well with 2000 for the size in a frigate vs colony type scenario. In the meantime you could use fighters to chase down enemy colonizers faster. Even a early freighter-carrier can carry a small complement of fighters for such a purpose.

[Raapys]

How about greatly decreasing the speed of colony ships? You'd think a colony ship would be large and slow, far more so than a warship which also has speed in mind. It would also increase the necessity of scouts in the early stages and hinder setting up colony ships many systems away in just a few turns; with how fast colonies become operational and all( i.e. 8 turns for space yard + supply facility = fully working military base).

I'd suggest a starting colony ship speed of 6 or 7, while the frigate speed could remain what it is( assuming maximum engines). Would help alot on those AI processing times to have the 'Chase the colony ship!' fights over sooner, and in one go instead of many seperate battles.

Processing times have decreased enough to make it playable again with 0.96, nice fix. Will see if there's any real disadvantages with it as I play.

[neofit]

The ship speed calculations seem a bit off. I am creating a remote miner in a Destroyer lvl3 hull. With 4x lvl1 Ion Engines he has a speed of 7. I remove an engine, the speed drops to 5. I add a lvl1 Solar Sail that is supposed to add 1 movement point/turn, and still get a speed of 5. There is some rounding somewhere that doesn't seem to work right.

[AAshbery76]

With the game about 40 turns old,it's still unplayable due to the bloody slow turns.Looks like I'll be playing MTW2 this weekend instead.

[Captain Kwok]

Re: Ship Speeds

It depends on the ship's engines-per-value and the values are always truncated to the whole number. Note that the LC is being shorted 1 movepoint unintentionally - I'll fix that up for v0.97, but you can do it yourself by replacing the EPM value of 3.66 with 3.5 for all LCs.

I'll see how the next few SE:V patches affect combat before making any other speed changes.

I've neglected to give the Solar Sail 5 movepoints (as the standard in the mod is 5 movepoints per engine) which is why it works only some of the time - at least that's my working theory but I can't it test it right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[neofit]

Captain Kwok said:

I'll see how the next few SE:V patches affect combat before making any other speed changes.

I've neglected to give the Solar Sail 5 movepoints (as the standard in the mod is 5 movepoints per engine) which is why it works only some of the time - at least that's my working theory but I can't it test it right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I've tried changing "Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula" for the solar sail from 1 to 5. I still get no speed increase when I add one. Looks like it's pretty complicated, so I'll refrain from using solar sails until the pro fixes it.

Also I am doing this on a Destroyer, but thanks for the fix for the Light Cruisers.

[Phoenix-D]

Solar sails don't work in stock right now, either.

[Raapys]

Considering raising the # of research facilities for the AI? From what I can see they still don't have nearly enough research points. 7-13k points with 12-15 planets each, not alot to brag about.

Oh, and looks like we're back to the 'No intelligence points' scenario. With up to 15 planets for some, surely they should have a few thousand points.

[Captain Kwok]

That observation is probably being caused by the AI encountering too many good resource planets in its territory as they are preferred over anything else... but the AI in general will designate ~20% of their colonies as Research and ~10% as Intel. There are instructions on certain colony types to build a mixed research-intel colony, or add intel centers on military colonies - but they really needs a breathable to be designated as such for them to get built.

[neofit]

When we click on 'Autocomplete' in the Ship Design window, do the components that are being automatically assigned to the ship depend on the mod, or is the feature hardcoded? Because I've just tried 'auto-completing' a small satellite, the first one we get , non-researched, chose the "Satellite" ship type, and got among others a Solar Sail assigned to it. The listed speed was still 0, but hey http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Edit: Solar sails are also getting assigned to bases.

[Captain Kwok]

It will depend on the design type and if you selected an appropriate vehicle for that design type. Anyhow are sats not auto-completing correctly? Last time I checked a level-1 small sat should have a core, 1 weapon, an armor, supply and ordnance storage.

I haven't really restricted what extra components go on what, so you may see a few weird things from time to time.

[neofit]

Captain Kwok said:
Anyhow are sats not auto-completing correctly? Last time I checked a level-1 small sat should have a core, 1 weapon, an armor, supply and ordnance storage.


... plus a Solar Sail for a small satellite using the "Satellite" design type http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. Same for a Defense Base. I can't add it manually though, it's not listed in the left pane.

Since no restrictions have been put in place I suppose it would be a lot of work to add them to every possible design. It's no big deal, I just thought that maybe the Solar Sails were somehow mislabelled, which may lead to other bugs, like them not adding any movement points, etc.

[Raapys]

Anyone else have problems with alliances? When the AI propose adding new members, my turn processing wont finish if I vote either yes or no. It halts at the 'processing all player turns' screen, frees all the memory used and just idles there.

[Captain Kwok]

It's probably a bug in the alliance voting function that was added in the SE:V 1.13 patch and in the mod.

[Intimidator]

Hi,

I just played an gmae with your mod and the 1.13 patch.
But the problem was that none of the AI developed at all, no ships, colonies or whatsoever.

Is this a already known and/or solved problem, or did I just missed a patch ??!!??

[Captain Kwok]

You're probably using an old verison of the mod.

You can grab v0.96 here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

[Intimidator]

Thanks, guess it will work now.

BTW. I downloaded the new version (0.96) a few days ago, only forgot to install it, clever isn't it ?

[neofit]

Don't know if it's a SEV, a 1.13 or a Balance Mod 0.96 bug, but the migration figures seem a bit odd.

I play the humans, rock/oxygen, and have a migration clause with the methane-breating Xi'Chung. I colonize a methane planet, in a new sector that is 4 warps away from the nearest Xi'Chung colony or my only other planet that has Xi'Chung immigrants.

Turn 1: colonization takes place, 25M humans come down from the colonizer (5% migration/year, 10% birthrate/year)

Turn 2: 27M humans (5% migration/year, 10% birthrate/year) + 181M Xi'Chung (5% migration/year, 12% birthrate/year)

Turn 3: 29M humans (5% migration/year, 10% birthrate/year) + 366M Xi'Chung (5% migration/year, 15% birthrate/year)

So, first, for the humans, the migration and birthrates seem to be calculated per turn and not per year.

And secondly, where do all these Xi'Chung come from? Even if migration does not take proximity and cargo ship carrying capacity into account (my best freighters can carry about 30M people, and I generate twice as many research points as the Xi'Chung do), we do definitely not see anything resembling a 5% migration rate. Colonized a 3rd planet, same explosive growth. I mix them with humans on a carbon dioxyde planet that is domed for both of them, and they again grow many times faster than humans.

[Raapys]

All those Xi'Chung would be coming from the other empire with 'invisible' ships, I'm guessing. Isn't migration just the people *leaving* the planet? It doesn't say how many people actually immigrated from other planets, yours or your ally's.

So in SEV you can actually have a planet loose population simply because they're leaving to other planets in your empire( or other empires, if shared migration) at a higher rate than the current birthrate.

[Dizzy]

where is there detailed info on migration?

And what happens if he pulls off all the humans living on the planet? That'd allow more tonnage to devote to buildings because the planet would no longer be domed. Would the player still own it with having just xichung on it?

[neofit]

Raapys said:
All those Xi'Chung would be coming from the other empire with 'invisible' ships, I'm guessing. Isn't migration just the people *leaving* the planet?


I understand that the actual immigration process is abstracted by using an Immigration Rate percentage value. But how come I have 181M immigrants on the first turn after colonization, in 0.1 of a year? What does "5% migration/year" mean? 5% of what? The whole of the other empire's population? That would be silly.

Need to also check if all these millions are really removed from the other Empire. I've just researched Gas Giant colonization, and am about to colonize half a dozen more methane planets. 100M/turn migration onto each of my planets would leave the Xi'Chung empire empty within a year http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Conquest through immigration for the win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Dizzy said:
And what happens if he pulls off all the humans living on the planet? That'd allow more tonnage to devote to buildings because the planet would no longer be domed. Would the player still own it with having just xichung on it?



What happens is that I have a mix of human and Xi'Chung population on the same planet, under my flag. If I remove the non-native breathers (i.e. humans) from the methane planet it loses its 'domed' status and I can exploit it as if it were a green oxygen planet with oxygen-breathing humans. The planet remains in my possession.

It works just like in SEIV, where you would manually first conquer then transport native-breathers to the appropriate planets so they are not domed anymore. SEV added this migration feature to do it automatically and without even having to conquer these other populations, you only need to micro-manage the removal of the non-native breathing colonizers if any. It's just that the immigration rates seem way off.

[Raapys]

What does "5% migration/year" mean? 5% of what?

5% of the current population of Xi'Chung are going to leave your planet that turn. It does not say how many will arrive( which is about 180 million each turn, judging by your post).

So after the second turn, 5% of those 181 million will go away from that planet, there will be a 12% birthrate and close to 180 million people will wander in from the other empire's planets.

181*0.05=9m
181*0.12=22m

181-9+22+180= 374m

So there should be about 374 at turn 3 assuming a 180mill immigration. Since the actual number is 366M that means the immigration was instead 172 million, a slight lessening from last turn.

Note that migration will obviously even itself out, once the two empires' population level starts to become equal, so they wont actually ever send all of their population to you. Note also that by using their population you gain their racial traits and loose your own on the planets/ships where there's a majority(?) of their population. Not sure exactly how that part works yet, not been in such a situation.

Unless the migration is a one-way thing in the pact, you'll also probably be sending alot of humans to them.

[neofit]

Thanks for the info on migration Raapys. But am I the only one to be suprised that all of a sudden all of 181M immigrants can come onto my planet? It would be OK if for instance 5% can arrive and/or 5% could leave, but 181M/500M in one month? It is bordering on an exploit, only it happens without me doing anything.

Besides I don't see how "the two empires' population can become equal", if I suck up 180M people per turn per planet from him, depending on the calculation I will either bleed him dry or immigration will stop once his population drops down to a certain threshold (and I always had more than him IIRC since we signed the treaty).

[Captain Kwok]

Migration works sort of like osmosis. Planets with high populations will flow into lower populated planets. The amount per turn will be affected by the difference in population...

[Suicide Junkie]

It also only flows towards breathable planets (for the migrating population).

[Shadowstar]

It would be nice if domestic migration would end up eliminating micro-management of "breather-swapping". I still have to do quite a bit of it and it ties up my transports. If anything, domestic migration should be higher than international migration, which needs to be much lower. In other words, races migrating across empires should use 10% the rate they are now, while domestic migration within an empire should use the current rate.

I also think it would be interesting if migration had the effect of giving a bonus to intel targeting the other party (while giving them the same bonus towards you), so that it wouldn't be something you'd do with someone you didn't quite trust, but it would be great for allies who can trust each other (since it would also effect cooperative intel).

[henk brouwer]

Shadowstar said:
If anything, domestic migration should be higher than international migration, which needs to be much lower. In other words, races migrating across empires should use 10% the rate they are now, while domestic migration within an empire should use the current rate.




Maybe migration between empires should depend on population loyalty, or does it work like that already?
Or happines could be a factor, with people migrating towards places with higher happines.

But I'm getting of topic here since these would be hardcode changes I believe. Anyhow great mod Kwok!

[Shadowstar]

Randomness seems to be best in this case. Some people like living in strange places. Some people don't care much about thier living environment and will choose to live where it's cheaper. When you throw in different species of people, it just gets more random. That said, there should at least be some basic generalizations used. For instance, there are some things everyone wants equally, so it makes sense that people would migrate toward planets where they can breathe outside, and migrate away from planets where they can't.

As for happiness, i'd say that would be a minor factor when compared to loyalty. People should only migrate on the basis of loyalty when they are loyal to another empire. If they are displeased or have low loyalty to thier current empire, but aren't loyal to any other empire, then they should stay put. When they do migrate, they should migrate to the empire that they are loyal to, not just to some random empire under the treaty. In some cases, it is concievable that loyalty could cause outright abandonment of planets, but in these cases it would behoove the empire in question to seriously consider thier migration treaties. This will dissuade players from starting up migration treaties willy-nilly.

Also, planet conditions should have an effect, but shouldn't cause migration away from the planet. Conditions should put a cap on incoming migration instead, since planets with poor conditions would be considered "low-income housing", which is a neccessary evil in any civilization. Basically, low-income housing exists because some people just can't live anywhere else, but they still need a place to live.

In all other cases, it should be random.

[Yimboli]

neofit said:
Colonized a 3rd planet, same explosive growth. I mix them with humans on a carbon dioxyde planet that is domed for both of them, and they again grow many times faster than humans.




Suicide Junkie said:
It also only flows towards breathable planets (for the migrating population).



neofit's experience contradicts SJ's stated policy. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

[Captain Kwok]

Getting back on topic:

I'm hoping to release v0.97 tomorrow. It's mostly tweaks in terms of data file changes, but it will add about a half-dozen new colony types for the AI. The new types described mixed-use colonies (ie Mineral &amp; Farming Colony or Research &amp; Intel Compound etc.) to help the AI use it's planets better. This change also allowed me to further refine selection criteria for the colony types. The last step will be refine the selection process by whether or not a planet is breathable...

---

Not sure about the reproduction/migration item mentioned by Neofit - but I'll try out that scenario and see if there is a bug present.

[shinigami]

CK, you've done a great job with this mod but.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think you've missed a minor balance issue, ship slots. The number of ship slots varies wildly from race to race. Take the frigate for example, the number of slots ranges from a low of 20 to a high of 44. Now granted, most ship designs don't use all of their slots (I did say it was a minor issue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) but it can be frustrating for a human player to have to change hull levels to design the exact same ship that fit everything on the same level with a different race.

A bit esoteric but, just a thought.

[DrewBlack]

Captain

How far are you away from releasing 0.97, im ready to start a game and but dont want to start with .96 then ditch again in a day or 2 to start a .97.

Keep up the excellant work on this mod... tremendous.

Drew

[Captain Kwok]

I'm still crunching away on v0.97 - it might be available tonight but more likely tomorrow so I can run a few tests.

Besides the colony type adjustments as described a few posts ago, I've also continued to improve the variety of AI designs. Some of the things I'm working on in that respect are:

- Specifying certain design types to use/build based on Empire's character - such as kamikaze ships for aggressive races (Done)
- AI will use multiple armor types (Done)
- Improve unit designs (Mostly Done)
- Restrict certain components to combat ships (To do)
- Ordnance storage added only for ships with ordnance weapons (To do, not likely for v97)

After this version I'll probably jump to v1.00 to go with patch 3 for SE:V (due out ca. Nov 20th) so I can add a few new items and stuff of that sort - so it will be a savegame buster. I'm also aiming to give the AI a number of treaty packages that will not only match the name of the treaty, but will actually be useful for the player and AI... it already does something similar for AI team mode so I hope it won't be too difficult.

---

Shinigami: I doubt I will mess around with the default slot layouts unless it becomes an issue of not enough slots for a given design

[Raapys]

Any word from Aaron about improvements in the turn processing times? Even with the Balance mod tweaks I'm finding the waiting to be too long to keep the game enjoyable.

[Captain Kwok]

I haven't much opportunity to play 1.14, but it does have the main fix required to speed up processing times, which is to clear the attack order after combat. That was the main cause of the excessive delay. There are also current processing hanging bugs in AI Alliance voting and also with cargo/population drop offs and the AI. Waiting on 1.15 to see what's been addressed.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Since you are talking about bugs I wrote Aaron Monday in regards to the generational components. I haven’t heard back from him has he said anything to the testers about this getting fixed? I can’t complete my mod until something is done to resolve this issue. Could you please check on it for me?

[Phoenix-D]

I'm hoping 1.15 has some more substantial fixes, since the delay between versions has been relatively high..

[Captain Kwok]

It looks you'll have to wait until tomorrow night for the update...

It looks like I'll have to change the way the design script adds extra components rather than it being just a simple list with the possibility of restricting it to just a single design type. I'll probably end up making up lists of components to add for a variety of design type groups - such as "Combat Ships" or "Support Ships" or "Defense Bases" and so on.

[Captain Kwok]

I've got the design script working along the lines that I described in my previous post and even added a few extra things as well. I devised a system where I consider 3 factors for a component and whether it should be added or not. One factor is the design type, the second is the role of the ship (ie combat) and the third factor is the vehicle type (ship, base, etc).

I need to make a couple more tweaks and do a 50-turn AI test before I'll post v97!

[Dizzy]

!!!

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Version 0.97 of the Balance Mod has been posted. This update focused on improving AI designs and adding mixed-use colony types for them. There were a few adjustments to free up space on some ship types.

Although this version is compatible with previously saved games - I recommend starting a new game with v0.97.

Balance Mod Webpage:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.97 (17 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Changed - Tech level requirements for Point-Defense Blaster and Point-Defense Beam
2. Fixed - Corrected error in Engines Per Move amount for Light Cruisers
3. Changed - Increased ability amount for Afterburners
4. Changed - A few minor tweaks to system types
5. Changed - Reduced crew requirements for most ship types
6. Fixed - Vehicle placement type typo in Stealth and Scattering Armor
7. Changed - Reduced Phased-Shield Generators to 30kT
8. Added - New design types for Drones
9. Added - New mixed-use colony types for the AI
10. Changed - More tweaking of AI colony type selection
11. Changed - Continued optimization of AI research selections
12. Changed - Continued optimization of AI design types
13. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

[henk brouwer]

I just started a new game in 0.97, and I can't seem to design weapon platforms. The weapon platform computer core component seems to be broken. If I add one, it's not recognized as such: the game still says I should add a computer core, and I can't complete the design because of this warning.

I started in quite an interesting location with the phong and terrans occupying my neighbouring systems (medium bonus) I have nowhere to expand, and it seems like I'll be at war with both of them in a couple of turns.. Time to look at some other defense strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

[Captain Kwok]

If you do a find and replace for all "Weapons Platform" entries with "Weapon Platform" in VehicleSizes.txt you should fix the problem.

In one of my AI test games, the Phongs and Terrans started close to each other and spent 50 turns blowing up each other's colonies...

[AAshbery76]

Are you going to add those default empires emp files?

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I'm currently building the script for the new treaty system that the AI will use in the Balance Mod. So far I've identified the types of treaty packages the AI might offer and most of the conditions that might by included in the proposals.

If it chooses to propose a treaty, the AI will consider it's anger level towards the other player along with modifiers from the type of AI it is (aggressive, neutral, peaceful), the score difference, and if it is currently in any wars. I may also factor in the game date.

Once the anger level is computed, then a series of conditional statements will choose a corresponding treaty type.

There are a number of treaty "classes" so far that I've outlined - although the actual names are picked from a list of appropriate choices. A number of terms are preset, although some types and/or stipulations will have some randomness.

Partnership:
Requires good relations and features trade, sharing of most items, mutual defense, etc. Only for the best of friends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Military Alliance:
Similar to partnership, but with sharing focused on military items like share supply or enemy designs plus a few non-military items added by chance.

Mutual Defense:
Only picked if the AI is at war with someone. Terms will be similar to military alliance, but with fewer bonus terms.

Cooperation:
A more random trade agreement with a bit more sharing of non-resource or research items.

Trade &amp; Research:
A trade agreement with some technology exchange.

Trade:
Mostly resource trade and a few other good faith items thrown in randomly such as share resupply or maps etc.

Free Navigation:
A friendlier version of a non-aggression pact

Non-Aggression
A typically early game treaty used to prevent hostilities and form a building block for more constructive treaties if things go positive

Non-Interference:
A highly specific agreement to stay out of each others' space - more likely to be proposed by aggressive races

Protectorate:
A not so mean treaty generally offered by peaceful races to much weaker empires... only small tariffs and some one-sided stipulations

Subjugation:
A meaner treaty offered by more aggressive races to much weaker empires... more severe tariffs and more one-sided conditions

Potential types not quite worked in yet:

Population Exchange:
A concise agreement to exchange population through migration

Technology Exchange:
Like above, but for technology

[AAshbery76]

Will the A.I arrange alliances with other A.I's?

[Raapys]

Any ETA on 1.0?

[Captain Kwok]

I'll have a v0.98 out tomorrow (maybe tonight) and then I'm going to do a v0.99 with the updated AI treaty system, and if all goes well with that a stable v1.00!

---

I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the AIs to make their own alliances - but they should be able to participate in one somewhat.

[Raapys]

Neat. Any problems using 0.97 with 1.17?

[Romulus68]

Can you address some of the AI's Intel usage (or lack of Intel) in the new release?

From what I can tell the AI doesn't build Intel Centers or use Intel at all.

[Captain Kwok]

There's probably an issue with the Shield Regenerator due to a fix in v1.16, but based on the change log for v1.17, I don't foresee any other problems - but let me know if there is a problem.

[Raapys]

Looks like there's a rather big one: the game will crash when starting a new game with 0.97. Not sure exactly what the problem is, there's several things going wrong: the exact crash is 'list index out of bounds' or some such.

When I try to edit or create a new empire, I get a message saying 'Could not find Empire Name in Record 1', in the abiddon_AI_main.txt file.

Clicking away that error message reveals that it's not possible to select any ship styles in empire creation, i.e. it's completely blank.

Some change in the way the data files are read?

[Captain Kwok]

Oops! I forgot that there was an empire data file addition for each AI in the patch. I've updated in my v0.97 beta copy, but it wasn't in the released v0.97 version for SE:V v1.13!

Oh well I'm at work and can't help you until later. You can fix it yourself though by adding the "Empire Name" field (see a stock [Empire]_Main.txt file for example) to each of your Balance Mod empires.

[Raapys]

Neat, thanks.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

As promised, I've updated the Balance Mod to v0.98! This fixes the Weapon Platform thing (both for players and the AI) and has the AI using Master Computers on large warships and bases - a bonus for you guys! Next up on the agenda is the AI diplomacy update - which I posted about a few messages ago.

I ran 25 turns in both the beta and retail versions and saw no problems with the update - but let me know if you see otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Balance Mod page:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.98 (20 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Fixed - Error in Weapon Platform requirements prevented their design
2. Fixed - Error in crew requirement amounts for some ship types
3. Changed - All "Weapons Platform" references should now be "Weapon Platform"
4. Added - Default Override_InvConfiguration_Slots.txt to mod
5. Changed - Shield Regenerator component abilities in response to SE:V v1.17 fix
6. Changed - Increased cost of Mechanoids racial trait to 500 points
7. Fixed - AI was not designing Weapon Platforms
8. Added - AI will now use Master Computers for larger designs if available
9. Added - AI fixes for Alliance politics from SE:V v1.17
10. Updated - AI Empire Scripts
</pre><hr />

[Suicide Junkie]

I've noted that the scroll rate in combat is painfully slow.
Increasing it by 4x or 5x would be nice.

[Suicide Junkie]

Something went wrong with this treaty offer...

Supposedly a trade and research pact, but there is no trade or research involved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[MisterBenn]

I thought the Balance Mod additional AI logic for treaties was not in yet, and planned for 0.99? That seems to be the stock behaviour.

Can't wait to get underway with a new game using 1.17 and 0.98!

[Captain Kwok]

Yeah, the new treaty scheme is not implemented yet - so it's still using random treaty names.

[Raapys]

Small bug. The Organic Large Freighter can currently be brought up to 21 in movement just by filling it with maximum number of Ion engines.

Other 'issues:

Organic/Crystalline races still research both missile and projectile weapons to level 6, and in a few cases a couple of other weapon types up to level 4. This with the Organic/crystal weapon research well on its way. I.e. wasted research points.

AI is still way too slow developing bigger ship sizes. Seeing them flying around with tons of frigates and a few light cruisers at turn 100++ is depressing, especially when many of them have over 50k research points.

Only one out of 5 AIs in my game is dropping satellites/fighters, and that one has only done it at one warp point and 5-10 mixed satellites/fighters.
There's also a code-related problem with the AI not doing other than dumping his fighters/satellites on one side of the warp point, since the AI doesn't bother with moving his units around in sector view. Aaron obviously need to give the AI some sort of ability to place satellites/fighters in a circle around the warp point.

I've also not seen a single mine in the game yet.

In short, though, the AI's performance is still not progressing very well. Perhaps it's fog of war or some such, but something is keeping them from reaching SE4 AI skill and difficulty level. They're simply nowhere near as aggressive as they should be; most of the AI time, even when they're at war, is just spent retrofitting ships and flying between systems, not destroying and conquering other empires like they should be.

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks for the report. Can you be more specific on which AIs you are seeing certain behaviors from?

[Santiago]

Regarding Mines. I was going to wait on this report. I'm not at home and no pc with the game on it to check this out further. I believe I finished Construction 2? last night, which showed mines as the next available and no mines are available in the design screen. Sorry for the incomplete report but Rappys mentioned it.

[Captain Kwok]

There are no bugs with mines, just simply that it's taking the AI some time to get to Construction II and then Mines after that. I really need to go through the AI research pathway and knock out tech areas it doesn't use.

[Raapys]

At my current game the turn # is 103

Sergetti Empire, Crystalline race: Has needlessly done 6 levels of Missile and Projectile weapons and 5 levels of normal Armor research even though racial technology is well developed and exclusive on their ships. Has a few warp points protected by groups of satellites no bigger than 5. Main fleet consists of Destroyers, light cruiser researched.

Phong Confederation, Crystalline race: As Sergetti Empire, but no fighters or satellites at warp points. Main fleet consists of Frigates, light cruiser researched.

Cue Cappa, Psychic race: Researched Energy stream, Projectile, and Missile weapons, in addition to the Psychic weapons. Uses APB and Psychic weapons. No satellites or fighters protecting warp points. Using destroyers, no light cruisers researched.

Uktra-Tal, Organic race: Level 9 missile and projectile weapons, Level 6 normal Armor. Using only organic weapons and armor on ships, so the regular weapons and armor research is wasted. Destroyer fleet, light cruiser researched. No satellites/fighters at warp points. Destroyer/frigate fleet, no more than level 2 light cruiser researched even though he has 150k research points( 3 times what the others have).

Xi-Chung, Organic race: Basically the same as the other organics, but this one wasting research points on Energy pulse weapons and High energy discharge weapons in addition to missile and projectile weapons. No warp point defenders. Fleet of frigates/destroyers, light cruiser researched.

Norak, Religious: Slight warp point defense. Frigate fleet, light cruiser researched.

All races are also using shields. While not a bad thing by itself, they're not researching it enough for it to be worth the big amount of space it requires.

No AI is using mines, that I can see.

One might consider having to change the 'Don't get hurt' strategy. The problem with it right now is that if a fleet with non-combat ships are dragged into a long combat, the non-combat ships will pass the retreat border( since they try to put as much distance as possible from them to the enemy), splitting that fleet into two hexes.

Not sure if it's possible to do anything with this, but the AI also ends up with hundreds of outdated units.

The 'Defense Ship' type appears to only carry a missile weapon.

All AIs using Point-Defense Cannon level 1.

That's all I could bring forth in my sleepiness, for now.

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks Raapys for the detailed description.

The AI is setup to research 1 tech in each area (cultural, theoretical, applied, weapon), so it goes for normal weapons until it opens up the racial weapon area. In other cases, the racial AIs research some of the normal techs for unit weapons like Rocket Pods. Some times its just on purpose, for example the Cue Cappa are intended to use the APB in addition to its Psychic weapons - its a part of the attempt to differentiate the races.

Early defense ships tend to use missiles until the race opens up other weapon areas. Since defense frigates are small, they are only able to add a single missile, but will a pair of weapons if possible.

I have plans to design a ship scraping minister to get rid of ships/units that are over X age. Not sure on the time frame though.

[Captain Kwok]

*sigh*

The lag in Point Defense was due to a typo. Rather than calling for "Point - Defense Weapons" - I had cut and paste "Point-Defense Weapons".

[Q]

Regarding mines: I have seen AI empires use them in order to protect their colonies (Abbidon as an example).

[DrewBlack]

hI Kwok
Does this mean we have to change a file in the balance mod or do we just wait for your next up date in PD's

Drew

[Raapys]

How about moving more of the total research points spent from weapons into applied? Would both help alot with getting the AI to increase ship sizes faster, and prevent him from wasting too much research points in regular weapons that he wont be using. There's obviously something going a bit wrong when the AI end up with Level 6 or 9( that's alot of research points) in regular missiles and weapons, when he's only using racial based ones.

Perhaps remove regular armor and weapons completely from the GlobalResearch file and instead add the desired weapons and armor to each empire's setup file, to ensure they research and use what they should be.

I think tight focus on a specific strategy will be the key to having the AI perform better, instead of having a general 'spread out' strategy for all AIs where they all basically just build the same mix of ships and units and use the same play styles.

I mean, we'd all love if we could get the AI to use all the neat weapons, make perfect fleet combinations with fighters, drones, attack ships, etc., but I really think it has to be easy and relatively straight-forward if we're gonna get anywhere near acceptable performance.

I also think, based on the non-existing ability the AI has to defend itself, that attacking has to be the AIs way of defending. Let's face it; the tiny amount of fighters that the AI keeps to protect his colonies aren't gonna stop any fleet determined to attack it; they need a real fleet for that. And where is that real fleet? It's usually in a system on the other side of the galaxy, flying around doing nothing and leaving their colonies free for the taking, unfortunately.

By the way, could you bring in the latest AI files(0.98) to the page?

[Captain Kwok]

Armor and Weapons are not listed in the shared research pool - they are only called by the individual empire scripts. Anyway I dropped the levels of some normal techs used at the beginning by racial AIs to help direct points to racial weapons. In some cases I had called for level 3, but in other cases it was level 6.

Not sure what is going on with the Xi'Chung - they have no references to Energy Pulse weapons. I wonder if it is a by-product of the fact that I stuck 0% for cultural tech for them?

The AI does build some good defense bases - but probably not in sufficient numbers and not always in the right places. I've started to reduce fleet sizes for the AI, so they have more fleets with fewer ships per fleet. It should give them the ability to cover more area. Fleets do not wander aimlessly though, they are set to patrol the frontier warp points most of the time.

---

I'll probably release a v0.99 update today without the revised diplomacy but with a few fixes and updated AI files.

[Raapys]

Armor and Weapons are not listed in the shared research pool - they are only called by the individual empire scripts.

In the 0.95 scripts there's definitely references to call 'Armor' in the Script_AI_GlobalResearch.txt file. There's also calls for the racial weapons, although no calls for any other weapons.

You're right, I can't find any references to Energy Pulse weapons in GlobalResearch or the Xichung main script, nor can I find the High-energy discharge weapons which he has also been researching. Perhaps the AI does random research if he runs out of 'calls' in an area before a new age is reached? I'm not entirely sure how the research system works yet though, so I could be way off.

More fleets would be a good move I think; the AI loose a bit by spreading the ships out, but they loose everything by not being there when their colonies are being destroyed.

Shields should probably become a bigger priority; they're just tonnage wasters the first few levels.

Not sure if you've already fixed this for 0.98/99, but in the 0.95 scripts available at your site, the GlobalResearch file is missing the 3. age indicator( 3: ). Instead it goes straight from 2 to 4. Unsure what the exact result of this is, if any.

[Captain Kwok]

Script_AI_GlobalResearch.txt is used only for startup tech selection and so in most cases *in theory*, the AI setup files more or less use up most of the available research points and that file doesn't end up being referenced except for figuring out the prerequisites.

Yeah, I caught that age 3: thing a couple of weeks ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raapys]

Isn't GlobalResearch called each time an age change is called ? I'm not really sure how the AI_Research file fit in with the GlobalResearch file and the setup- and main script research parts at any rate. What a mess.

[Romulus68]

Is it possible to define what levels the the AI will research towards? So that you can predetermine the early phases of research to acheive a good mix of technology. For example: You tell a Crystaline race to research certain techs up to a said level then build a predeterimed ship.

By doing this you are able to program exactly how the ships will be built. ie Weapons, armor, shields, racial traits, etc. It will make the ships be "Cookie Cutter" designs, BUT effective "Cookie Cutter" designs.

Program in a variable that will pick predeterimed ship designs using a preset percentage of the existing designs. ie 40% frigates/destroyers, 30% Light cruisers/cruisers, 10% dreads/BB's, 5% carriers, 5% Support ships. A fleet of 10 ships would break down as 4 Frigates, 3 Cruisers, 1 Dreadnaught, 1 Carrier, and 1 Repair Ship.

The AI will build a balanced force between the size classes while using the predetermined ship configuration.

[Captain Kwok]

Raapys said:Isn't GlobalResearch called each time an age change is called ? I'm not really sure how the AI_Research file fit in with the GlobalResearch file and the setup- and main script research parts at any rate. What a mess.

No. It is only used for starting tech selection. Script_AI_Research.txt is the main file for determining what the AI will research in-game along with the called inserts from the Empire scripts themselves.

Anyway I've clean up the race setup selections - some of them weren't matched nicely to what I've have them researching later. I've also tidied up the common research list and hopefully it will help with efficiency.

Romulus:
That is almost exactly how it is setup right now... except there is more flexibility in the current system. The only real difference right now is that the AI will not build a good mixture of big and small ships - another item on the to-do list.

[Romulus68]

Captain Kwok said:
Anyway I've clean up the race setup selections - some of them weren't matched nicely to what I've have them researching later. I've also tidied up the common research list and hopefully it will help with efficiency.




If I design/make new races on my own. What AI script will they use? Will I get smarter AI's using your pre-made ones?

Follow-up: If I start a game with 1,000,000 research will/does your AI's use it all? Does any AI use it all?

Follow up to the follow up: Can you make the Racial techs available on the race creation process?

[Captain Kwok]

It depends on what script you tell them to use. If you copy one of the other empires or the default scripts, you'd get comparable performance with them in the mod. They may not necessarily smarter, but their tools will be improved.

The AI will use all the startup tech and racial points that it can.

[Captain Kwok]

I decided to hold off with a small release and continue on working on a more extensive v0.99 with the updated AI treaty scheme included. I did manage to update the research scripts today and it looks like they will address a number of the issues mentioned here. (Secretly it's because I want a nice shiny and stable v1.00 mu ha ha ha).

There's also some fixes and revisions for components and facilities. For example, I gave shields a bit better starting base and a slight boost in overall strength - primarily because they only regenerate after each turn and not each combat.

I'm aiming for the end of the weekend for this update - it should give me some time to actually play the mod too, rather than just test if the AI designs ships right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Dragonmaster]

Just a small fix for your next version Kwok. Your shield Regenerator amount is showing wrong in the component help due to you using %amount1% instead of %amount2% and its returning the value of 1 for all levels.

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks. I caught that typo yesterday when people where saying the displayed amount was 1.

---

I'm still debugging the new AI treaty proposal system. There are offering the right items for the package they choose and all, but for some reason I've having trouble getting the selected treaty name to appear... it's odd...

[Raapys]

Could you alter the AIs 'Dont get hurt' strategy? When an AI attacks with a combined fleet of non-combat and combat ships, the non-combat ships with the Dont get hurt strategy will move so far away from the enemy ships that they cross the retreat border, effectively splitting the AIs fleet in two, while the combat ships engage. So we'd need strategy that doesn't move the 'fleeing' ships further away from the enemy than a certain safe distance.

[AAshbery76]

There are no intel points done by the A.I's whatsoever, been playing for hours vs 13 A.I's.

[Q]

AAshbery76 said:
There are no intel points done by the A.I's whatsoever, been playing for hours vs 13 A.I's.



Well, I have seen different.
In my opinion the AI uses even too much intel both in the balance mod and in standard SE V if you consider that most intel projects are of little real value for the AI.

[AAshbery76]

Even too much?

I repeat, in a 6 hour game vs 13 A.I's they have zero intel points.Are you playing the latest BM version?

[Q]

Yes version 0.98 BM and 1.17 SE V.
With too much intel I mean that IMO the AI would profit more if it built research facilities instead of intel facilities.
What turn/stardate are you in your game?

In my standard SE V game at stardate 2405.3 the Abbidon have more than 21000 intel points per turn, other AI empires have less, some have no intel.

[Raapys]

21000 O_O

In several of my lasts game none of the empires have had any intel points, while in the few games they've had some they've never had more than 3-4k.

[Captain Kwok]

I stuck Intel Colonies to the bottom of the colony types list - so it's usually the last one to get satisfied and if there isn't too many colonies established it probably gets left out - unless they get lucky and designate a breathable as a intel colony. There is a mixed colony for research-intel but it probably doesn't help that much when it's chosen for a non-breathable. I'll push intel back up the list and drop something else.

[Raapys]

How about just dropping intel type colonies entirely, and have them build an intel center or two on the resource and/or research type colonies?

[Captain Kwok]

The AI will build Intel facilities on 3 types of colonies: Intel, Research &amp; Intel, and Military. However, the problem is that often these mixed colonies get assigned to non-breathable colonies with insufficient space so they don't always see an Intel Center.

No worries though, I'll bump up the Intel Compound priority a bit and you'll see some more Intel points produced.

---

I was able to remedy my problem with the new treaty proposal scheme and it seems to be working out OK now. Depending on a few factors like anger or the number of wars its in, the AI will make packages for the following treaty "classes": Partnership, Military Alliance, Cooperation, Trade &amp; Research, Trade, Non-Aggression, Non-Intercourse, Protectorate, and Subjugation. Some of the terms are "hard-coded", others are allowed to vary in their stipulations, and lastly some terms are randomly thrown in.

Currently, counter proposals and stuff work under the old scheme. I doubt I'll bring them up to snuff in this patch to the new system but if it isn't too complicated then maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

---

I'm also adding a Bombardment Ship for the AI to use in its fleets. This guy will generally be designed to soften up the defenses of colonies with planetary weapons - sort of a countermeasure to deal with the stronger planet defenses.

---

I should have a v0.99 of the mod ready for tomorrow night.

[henk brouwer]

About the AI colonies: is the AI capable of making domed colonies undomed if it has the right population? If transporting the non-breathers of the planet is too complicated you could just let the AI 'scrap' the offending population http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif. It would give them tons of extra facility space.

I was quite suprised to see that you can scrap populations without any obvious impact on loyalty or happines, perhaps that should be considered a SEV bug though. The whole domed-undomed thing seems quite awkward, It would make far more sense if a planet became undomed if a population is present that can breath it's atmosphere, even if races that can't breath it are still on the planet. The non- breathers would stay domed, and would be limited in their growth by the maximum domed capacity, but I see no logical reason why the race that can breath the atmosphere couldn't populate the rest of the surface. That's more of an SEV issue though. I'm looking forward to the patch.

[Q]

As far as I have seen the AI does not remove population to undome a colony. Would indeed be a major improvement if he would.

[Captain Kwok]

I would suggest that on a mixed colony with a breathable and non-breathable race, that the non-breathers should become subject to migration to breathable planets. Over time, all the non-breathers would be shipped out and leave a non-domed colony behind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[AAshbery76]

Captain Kwok said:
I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the AIs to make their own alliances - but they should be able to participate in one somewhat.



That's a shame.Having power blocks in the game would be great.Making multiple alliances is a exploit if the A.I empires can't form their own power blocks.

[Captain Kwok]

I think one way of setting it up would be is to look at races it has good relations with (ie low anger) and if there are more than two good allies then to propose the Alliance agreement. I don't imagine they synchronize their actions together or anything, but at least they might declare war or something at the same time.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

Version 0.99 of the Balance Mod is available for download:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

There were a number of fixes and changes in this version, along with the addition of the new AI treaty proposal scheme. They should be making better treaties with more appropriate names and provisions now. Let me know how it goes.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.99 (26 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Changed - Adjusted the damage order for Armor and Shield types
2. Changed - Increased resource levels for finite games
3. Changed - Increased Combat Radius to 2500
4. Changed - Crew Boarding Strength to 0.5
5. Fixed - Maximum level for some vehicles was incorrect
6. Fixed - Engines Per Move value for Organic Large Freighter was incorrect
7. Changed - Genetic Recoding Lab no longer modifies reproduction rate
8. Changed - Increased shield point amounts slightly
9. Changed - Phased-Shield Generator is now a bit more expensive
10. Changed - Slightly increased shield regeneration rate for Shield Regenerators
11. Changed - Decreased Life Support and Crew Quarters to 3 levels
12. Changed - Decreased Vehicle Systems tech area to 5 levels
13. Changed - Adjusted tech level requirements for Self-Destruct Device and Auxiliary Control
14. Changed - Solar Sail now has 2 levels
15. Added - New design type Bombardment Ship
16. Changed - Increase damage and range for Planetary Napalm
17. Fixed - AI wasn't always adding max engines on large ships
18. Changed - AI Fleets will break formation immediately
19. Fixed - A few typos with maximum levels
20. Changed - Sound effects in combat range have a larger range to be heard
21. Changed - Increased the size of some combat effects
22. Changed - Increased AI's number of Intel Compounds
23. Changed - AI will use more fleets
24. Added - New Treaty Proposal scheme for AIs
25. Updated - Continued to refine AI research pathing
26. Updated - AI Empire Scripts
</pre><hr />

[Raapys]

Looks like a very nice update, thanks.

[arthurtuxedo]

By the way, I notice that the Balance Mod has combat zoomed farther out than stock. This is a very nice feature and one that I wish all mods included. Where is the setting for this?

[Suicide Junkie]

Settings.txt:

Space Combat Maximum Zoom Out Distance := 90.0

[Dizzy]

OOOOoooohhhhhhh! TY Capt Kwok!

[Dodd]

I am presently playing Balance mod 0.99 ,patch 1.17. I am playing under high difficulty settings. I have just taken out an alien main planet with my 5 frigates and a repair ship. They defended it with 1 colony ship and an unarmed space station. It is currently turn 2402.8. Is it possible to make the aliens defend their home planets a lot better ? The appearance of a few satelites and weapons stations would have made me feel that this wasnt such an easy victory.

Dodd

[javaslinger]

I'm gonna guess he's already working on that.....

Javaslinger

[AAshbery76]

It does seem from my early games in 99, that the A.I is not building defences.Unless they are building defences after facilities,which is wrong.

[Dodd]

As this was the alien homeworld with a 4 billion population I expected a tougher defence. However I was counter attacked a turn later by a force of ten frigates ( a most enjoyable battle} but by then the damage had been done.

[Captain Kwok]

The order for ground construction is described as "Facilities &gt; Units &gt; Facility Upgrades &gt; Unit Retrofits*". So generally smaller planets will be the first to add defensive units. Also, since the queue rate is highest on the homeworld, the AI prefers to build its ships there - so it's usually a while before they actually build units on it. An overall increase to unit build priorities might help.

[Dizzy]

Well... I think it's necessary. Otherwise you could go for a hail mary pass with a transport and some tanks and you've won the game.

[Captain Kwok]

Yeah, and unfortunately the large numbers of defined militia in the mod are overwritten by some secret stock backup setting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I'll pump up unit production and maybe some more BSYs - that might encourage more unit construction for the AI early on.

[javaslinger]

Can you get any info from Aaron on that secret stock backup to work around it?

BTW, is Aaron open to collaberations with you and other top modders to improve the stock game?

Keep up the incredible work!

Javasligner

[mrscrogg]

Is there an icon , new screen or patch number that shows up anywhere that lets you know if the Balance Mod has downloaded sucessfully and is ready for use as there was for Star Trek Mod on SE4 ?

[Suicide Junkie]

When you press "New Game" it will be in the list.
When you select its entry in the list, you'll see Kwok with a puzzled expression, holding a meson blaster in one hand and an APB in the other.

[Wenin]

You can Retrofit units?!?!? How?

[Captain Kwok]

In theory units can be retrofit, but there is no way to issue the order. I send a nag e-mail every so often asking for a retrofit screen that can handle multiple retrofits, and of course unit retrofits etc.

[AAshbery76]

All the race members seem to be jubilant after the patch,it makes some of facilities pretty useless..

[Captain Kwok]

Bump for The Gnome.

Also check the Balance Mod forums over here:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-73.html

---

A v1.00 update is coming later this weekend. A couple more bug fixes plus some additions to boost the AI's unit production and defense.

[The Gnome]

Groovy, thanks Kwok, apparently I'm blind!

Just a quick question, have you/are you planning any mods to the minister AI?

[Dejavuproned]

I have recently installed the Balance mod and started a new game. There is something I noticed about research points though. I have 2 planets with research facilities on them, according to the planet report screen one planet is generating 4125 research points and one planet is generating 1997 research points which totals 6122. But when I go to the research screen it only says I have 5456 research points available, what happened to the rest? My government type gives me +6% research but my society type decreases research by 5% so I should have a 1% bonus so it cant be that. Anyone know what the problem might be?

[Suicide Junkie]

Did you just finish one of the research centers?
You generate the points last month, and spend them this month.

[Dejavuproned]

Ahh I didnt even realize that, you are right I have 6122 points in the next turn.

Thanks!

[Captain Kwok]

Gnome, through improving the AI, you improve the ministers. So far the AI focus has been ship designs, construction, diplomacy, and a little bit of other things. Which particular ministers were you interested in using?

[javaslinger]

I think the population ministers are broken. I'm using your mod, but I think it's an issue with SEV not yoru mod. Can you get them working??

Thanks,

Javaslinger

[Dodd]

I have noticed that when I try to upgrade my pre existing ship designs that items like better armor are not improved i.e the armor value remains the same. To improve a design I have to start from scratch. Is there a way to fix this?

[Captain Kwok]

Are you referring to the total armor on the design? If that's the case, then there's a SE:V issue with the stats not being updated until the save is re-loaded or perhaps until the next turn.

[Dodd]

Yes. The the total armor value wouldnt change. I did not realize that the values would update next turn.

Thanks

Dodd

[Captain Kwok]

So it turns out the AI was adding any starting techs for the last few versions! Anyhow it's been fixed and is working properly. It should certainly help with the research stuff!

[shinigami]

Mod's coming along nicely, CK! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Quick question, you added the Override_InvConfiguration_Slots.txt file, did you intend to use it?

[Captain Kwok]

Not at this time, but it was suggested that I at least include one with the mod (it's just the default one now, but that will probably change) package if someone wanted to use it.

[javaslinger]

Any update on when the latest update might be coming out?

Thanks,

Javaslinger

[Captain Kwok]

I was aiming for tonight, but I haven't finished the update yet and I wanted to test the mod out for a bit first. So 50-50 for tonight... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[The Gnome]

Captain Kwok said:
Gnome, through improving the AI, you improve the ministers. So far the AI focus has been ship designs, construction, diplomacy, and a little bit of other things. Which particular ministers were you interested in using?



I'm was away for the last few days, sorry just getting to this. To start, I could not get a couple of the ministers to work at all:
Ships - Minelayers
Ships - Population Transports

It could be something I'm doing incorrectly, but I'm not sure what it could be.

Also, some questions/suggestions for the Planetary Construction minister:
- Will it build Atmosphere Modification Plants? I think it's worth the investment on Large/Huge worlds, maybe even medium. Should recycle it after the atmosphere is converted, but I'm not sure if that level of control is possible.

- Will it build Value Improvement Plants? Worth it on all the resource type colonies of Large+, maybe even medium, haven't looked at the numbers in detail.

- Will it build Climate Improvement Plants? Worth it on all medium+ sized worlds.

- I tend to take the Temporal Tech branch when I play and noticed it was not building the Temporal Shipyards in place of normal shipyards. Again not sure if this level of decision making is practical or allowed given the api.

- There is a new colony type in your Mod (Resource Colonies?) that will build facilities for all three types of resources. If available it would be nice if Monolith facilities were built there.

- If the AI can detect which system wide facilities are constructed or being constructed it would be nice to have those handled by this minister as well (Medical Centers, Temporal Vacation Centers, Space Ports, etc.).

- Will the AI build Robo Factories? Would be nice on resrouce worlds.


Also, I noticed ships retrofitting without the minister be active for that ship, but I think that's more an SEV bug than anything to do with you. It also might be me not understanding how it's supposed to work!

Thanks, and your mod rocks btw!

[Captain Kwok]

It was reported that at some time the Ship Design minister had to be active for some of the ministers to work. I'm not sure if this is still the case despite a fix aimed at this area in v1.17...

Are there mines available for the mine layer?

The AI planetary minister is not that advanced yet. Some of the items you describe are long term AI goals I would like to work on.

The build lists do call for some of the resource enhancing abilities, but there are unlikely to be seen unless they happen to have the right colony type on a large enough planet. Not to say there can't be further optimization in this area... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raapys]

I was thinking, it would probably be alot better for the AI if, for instance, all planets' facility slots were doubled, while all relevant facilities( i.e. research, intelligence, mining, etc.) had their production points and costs cut in half. It would definitely improve AIs 'mixed' colonies alot.

On another note, I'm thinking that maybe there should be a huge decrease in supplies/ordnance usage, or a big increase in the standard supply/ordnance storage( like 2x the current level ) and another increase in the amount of supplies distributed by resupply facilities. The goal would be to have the AI fly around more, both with fleets and single ships, further away from his colony systems, etc.

I'm speculating that the current short time before running out of supplies might be keeping the AI from venturing out from his colonies and rarely attacking the player. I'm guessing that supply is a big factor when the AI decides to send out an attacking fleet, so if there's one or two empty system between the AI and his target, he might not attack at all because he decides his ships doesn't have enough supplies to last through it all.

The above also brings me to another speculative, but highly likely, point: How *can* the AI attack the player( unless he's got a planet in the same sector or some such )?

I mean, with fog of war enabled, the AI will *never* know of any of the player's colonies if the player just terminates any scouts sent. In other words, the AI will never have a target, a colony, to attack or to send his fleet to. And, presumably, the AI wont send out his fleet unless he's got a clear target, this then explaining the lack of aggresion from the AI.

In short, the one and only 'fair' way of playing against the AI in SE V seems to be if one uses the 'See all sectors' option to help him, because the AI is definitely not designed to handle fog of war issues. Perhaps the easiest and best solution for Aaron would be to just make the AI 'cheat' and see everything.

[The Gnome]

Captain Kwok said:
It was reported that at some time the Ship Design minister had to be active for some of the ministers to work. I'm not sure if this is still the case despite a fix aimed at this area in v1.17...

Are there mines available for the mine layer?

The AI planetary minister is not that advanced yet. Some of the items you describe are long term AI goals I would like to work on.

The build lists do call for some of the resource enhancing abilities, but there are unlikely to be seen unless they happen to have the right colony type on a large enough planet. Not to say there can't be further optimization in this area... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Mine layers have the mines available to them.

Hmm, needing the ship design minister on for some functions? Argh. That's the only one I refuse to use lol. Not that I hate its designs but I have a ship naming convention so I know what my oddly named ships are called.

Generally I use US Navy Hull/Type convention with a dash and then a name. So:
CA - Cruiser, Heavy
CV - Cruiser, Aviation
CL - Cruiser, Light
AR - Auxiliary, Repair
AP - Auxiliary, Troop Transport

Having the AI use the ship type prefix would be actually a really nice thing for the game btw. Seeing a "FeeFiFoFum IV" tells me nothing, but seeing "BB - FeeFiFoFum IV" tells me a battleship sized attack ship was involved.

[Captain Kwok]

I'll have to respond to some of the items posted here later, but I wanted to point those who are interested to a new thread in the Balance Mod forums at SE.net:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-2115.html

It's a proposal for a change to the Engine system. There's not much change to the actual mechanics really, but I think it restores some strategy back to engine usage that was sort of lost with the current Balance Mod engine system.

[Captain Kwok]

The AI is not too bad at refueling ships and does make decent usage of frontier Resupply Depots when it builds them. Anyhow the revised engine system will improve the ranges for most ships.

To some degree, Raapys is right about the AI and its attack locations. It generates it's attack location list each turn and I would think that if an area of enemy strength is not visible on its sensors, it won't be considered. Although I have seen times when a large fleet is nearby and will attack the next turn, but it depends on a myriad of factors. Overall from looking through the scripts, the AI is generally designed to attack enemies in shared systems first rather than launching longer "preemptive" strikes.

The AI is also told not to start hostilities if there is still open space to explore - I'll likely change this to reflect the nature of the AI - that is, whether it is peaceful, neutral, or aggressive.

I think it might be good if the AI always saw the contents of the system as well.

[Captain Kwok]

Just in case you couldn't guess, the next version of the mod probably won't be good to go until Wednesday as I need to implement the new propulsion scheme and make a few script adjustments.

[AstralWanderer]

Captain Kwok said:
It's a proposal for a change to the Engine system. There's not much change to the actual mechanics really, but I think it restores some strategy back to engine usage that was sort of lost with the current Balance Mod engine system.

The only downside there would be the need to calculate manually how many hexes a ship design could move (and presumably fractional values would be lost rather than carried over to the next turn). Also could other components (e.g. Solar Sails) still provide an element of extra movement?

I would certainly agree with removing the "hard" limitations on engine usage but adding other incentives for developing older engine types, e.g. lower cost, features like a stealth bonus (due to reduced emissions) or a combat maneuverability bonus (improved control systems) could add extra depth to the game.

[Captain Kwok]

AstralWanderer said:The only downside there would be the need to calculate manually how many hexes a ship design could move (and presumably fractional values would be lost rather than carried over to the next turn). Also could other components (e.g. Solar Sails) still provide an element of extra movement?

You already do this now, except now you don't even know your ships EPM (engines per move) value. At least now it would tell you and it'd be a relatively round number. The mechanics are the same as currently, but the movement bonuses have been dropped in favour of a gradual increase in engine movement points.

All in all, 94.5% of people just add to max engines anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Interesting note, the ship stats summary will actually round your ships movement up if its appropriate to do so, but your real movement for your constructed ship is the truncated value. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Spoo]

Captain Kwok said:
Interesting note, the ship stats summary will actually round your ships movement up if its appropriate to do so, but your real movement for your constructed ship is the truncated value. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



That sounds more like a bug to me.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

Well another change (and delay) for the next version involving ship level progression. Not too much change at the bottom end, but the larger ships now have more levels - which was a big request/wish for many players.

Relevant thread:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-2121.html

Long story short: It doesn't change the min or max size for a ship type, but does give finer graduations of size for the big ships.

[AAshbery76]

There is enough to research already without these balance killing multiple ship sizes.Bad move for game and A.I.

[Captain Kwok]

It's purely a cosmetic change. No real effect on the AI or changing balance.

The research costs have been adjusted so that the total tech area costs the same as before. So it's really just opening up 50kT increments per level for the big ships rather than the 100kT increments that were in place.

Overall, each ship type still retains the same proportions of space they did for engines, weapons, etc.

[javaslinger]

Licking my fingers in anticipation of the next Balance mod....

Javaslinger

[Captain Kwok]

Working on it as I post. Lots of data entry with this update! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Any observations on the AI and their treaty behavior from v0.99? I'll be working on the script updates and haven't seen much about it since the last version was posted.

[javaslinger]

Lets see... ABout 60% of the AI's agreed to a treaty of some sort with me. I attmepted a treaty with each one I encountered. It was a reasonable mix with one sneaking in a tech trade 1 to 1. From that I found out that he had reasearched an inordinate amount of social improvements like civics, etc... and light carriers... seemed like his research was a bit wasted for early game....

I found one AI to be particulary agressive.. they were on my initial border and shared the same planet type for colonization. no fleets, but small groupings of 4-6 ships...

All AI's were very heavy on units.. couldn't tell you what the units were for most.

Ship designs featured multiple armors with usually one single weapon.. almost exclusively.. is this by design? I won in every match I wasn't outnumbered with a gun heavy/limited armor ship design.

Oh, they also began to go crazy with the fighters and that really screwed me as I was very lax with the PD....

really didn't get too far, maybe 100 turns before I had to drop the game for exam prep...

I played the game with max AI's, no neutrals, difficult setting, and max bonuses.

I was first place scoring wise pretty rapidyly by rapidly expanding and grabbing every planet I could nearby. By the time I'd expanded as full as possible without any combat, I was nearly double or triple the AI in systems and planets. However, they had nearly double or triple my ships and units. My research points and resources were far ahead of the 2nd place race....

However, the AI that did the tech trade with me took over 1st once it received the crapload of military techs from me....

Hope this helps.. version 0.99 by the way...

Javaslinger

[Captain Kwok]

What about the treaties they offered you? Were they decent for the type of treaty they were suppose to be?

[Phoenix-D]

In our test PBW game, I'm up against the Sithrak and the Sergetti. Neither has used anything bigger than a frigate yet, and they haven't seriously attacked me.

The Sergetti are currently blockading one of my side systems, though. They've got a FG sitting on each warp point.

[Dodd]

In my current and preceding games the treaties have been fair. I can often get a non agression pact of some kind. Even if the aliens dont want a treaty they seem to leave me alone. They only get nasty if I block warp points they want to travel thru and we currently have no treaty.

The aliens dont seem very expansionistic after the early game. I have by about mid-game three times more planets and am producing about ten times more research points than my nearest competitor.

Dodd

[javaslinger]

Ok, Capn.. here's what I got for ya....

14 AI empires of which I have contacted all of them. I have attempted a treaty with all of them or accepted the one they offered me. Presently I have 9 treaties.. and am at war with 1.. the others have all refused...

As far as the treaties go.... and I couldnt' tell you which I suggested and which them did....

7 of 9 contain trade treaties ranging from 10-20%

Oh, I take that back, 3 were suggested by them, and 6 by me... the three that they suggested include a non-agression treaty, a cooperation agreement, and a trade treaty...

Wait there was one other treaty the damn Phong's suckered me into.. it included a tech swap 1 to 1....

Most treaties they offered were the non-agression sort with some sort of trade agreement... they at times try to sneak in a tech swap but usually it's the 4 levels old variety and I don't accept them. Also, most of their treaties include sharing resupply... one included colonizing in each others territory...

IN general I haven't seen anything bizzare out of their treaty offers.. and they're reasonable about what they accpet. I haven't been able to 'sucker' anyone yet into a bad treaty...

Hope that is helpful...Oh, by the way, it's year 2403.5.. so it's relatively early...

Javaslinger

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks for the report. The treaties the AI will offer depend on a few factors which include the race's mood (anger) toward you and their classification (peaceful, aggressive, etc). Most of the neutral/aggressive AIs might start out with non-aggression treaties, but if things go well they'll move up to trade or trade and research type treaties. A good relationship with a peaceful AI might get you a partnership treaty or military alliance if their at war.

[AAshbery76]

ETA?

[Captain Kwok]

The update should be good to go tomorrow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raapys]

Could activating the See Ship/Unit From Memory features help the AI along? I'm not sure exactly how these works, haven't had the time to test it yet, but they sound like something that might be just what the game needs to greatly improve the AI. Too bad the See Planet feature, which is activated by default, doesn't also store the last known owner of the planet.

[Phoenix-D]

See Ship/Unit is odd. It lets you see them after you move out of sensor range. That's good. It lets you seem them no matter where they are. That's bad.

It makes sensors almost pointless, actually..

[Raapys]

Bah, hoped it would just leave a 'mark' or something about where the fleet was and how big it was. Aaron definitely needs to look into that.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I've posted v1.00 of the Balance Mod for download at my site:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

Note that this version is not compatible with any v0.9X games - so you'll need to start a new game.

Some big changes in this version included extensions to the ship and engine tech tree, along with a change in the propulsion system. Essentially each engine now provides a varying amount of movement points instead of a standard amount with movement bonuses for higher tech engines.

On the AI front there was a big fix with starting techs (the AI hasn't been picking their starting techs for some time now - maybe since v95!?) so that should certainly help AI performance.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
1. Fixed - AI players were not selecting starting technology
2. Added - Small Crystalline Armor
3. Added - Small Organic Armor
4. Fixed - Error in tech requirement for Environmental Studies cultural achievement
5. Fixed - Error in tech requirement for Temporal Space Yard
6. Changed - Plague Bombs are now only a single entry
7. Fixed - Range was incorrect for Plague Bomb
8. Fixed - The Massive Base Mount had an incorrect amount for its accuracy bonus
9. Changed - Tweaked hull costs for some vehicle types
10. Changed - Increased damage amount for Alloy Burner Missile
11. Changed - Quantum Reactors now provide more supplies per level and their cost reduced slightly
12. Changed - Revised entire engine system
13. Changed - Increased number of tech levels for larger ships (Cruiser &gt; Baseship)
14. Changed - Reduced the regeneration rate for Organic Armor
15. Changed - Increased Ripper Beam to 11 levels
16. Changed - Increased Plasma Missile to 11 levels
17. Changed - Slightly increased seeker speeds
18. Added - Defense Modifiers to seeker weapons descriptions
19. Fixed - Error in Boarding Combat defense modifier
20. Changed - Reduced the maximum time it takes for Atmospheric Modification Plant to change the atmosphere
21. Changed - Increased amount of damage required to kill 1M population
22. Changed - Increased values for starting tech points
23. Fixed - AI wasn't adding Basic Sensors to their satellites
24. Changed - Racial trait sensors (Temporal, Psychic) reduced in cost
25. Fixed - A number of typos
26. Updated - Updated AI research pathing
27. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

[DeadMilkman]

Starting new game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[mrscrogg]

Mr Kwok , tried to install v1.00 , got message " bad CRCbd99ac16 { should be db90a6bcb } " odviously did not take , what should I do ?

[Captain Kwok]

That sounds yucky. You can try to re-download since it might have been corrupted... and also check to make sure you installed it in the right directory etc.

[mrscrogg]

Captain Kwok , tried downloading again same message came up - with further digging - problem came up between , eee-main-script-csf and eee-setup-script-cfs , also a warning message " size of extracted file { 776572} does not match the uncompressed size { 776556 } recorded in the zip. file " maybe this helps finding the cause ?

[se5a]

thats an AI file...
if it lets you unzip it compleatly without those files then you should be ok, I'll download it later and see if I get the same problem.

[shinigami]

Working fine here.

[RCCCL]

It installed fine for me, but I no longer have the reduced flag size.

[Captain Kwok]

There's a few Alliance Flags that haven't been changed in size. Did you happen to choose one of those?

[RCCCL]

I'm using the one that's listed as Race 13, the red flag with the samon colored tri disign.

[Romulus68]

Captain,

There is another post talking about the AI's and giving them Ancient Race traits. They claim the computer play better with it. Can you edit that into your stock empires or are you (or the program) already giving the AI's that edge? (see everything)

[Baron Grazic]

Romulus68 - If you start a new game with the option "Players can see all sectors of the solar system regardless of system" it should do the same thing, you just have to not "Cheat" and look around.
I played 1 game like this and had massive fleets attacking multiple targets each turn - This was a stock game too.

[Raapys]

Players can see all sectors work even better, since it removes fog of war, which is what's really crippling the AI. Ancient Race will really just improve AI performance the first few turns, as it doesn't have to explore and such.

[Captain Kwok]

Some of the AIs will add the ancient racial trait when they have 3000 or 5000 points to spend.

Using the players can see all objects in a system setting (SE:IV style) will certainly kick up the AIs performance.

[AAshbery76]

With all the shipsets,races going to be made I think BM should keep the stock flags.Release the smaller flag mod as an optional download.

Good work BTW.

[Baron Grazic]

I read that Version 1.00 is certainly not compatible with earlier games but I was still hoping I could keep my empire file.
Starting a game being able to build Baseships on turn 1 is pretty good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Mercury]

Ive never modded... hi, but i want to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
ill look around the mod programs i saw links too around the
forum. lates

[Q]

Some feedback for you Kwok about version 1.0:

- The AI expansion seems much better with rapid colonization of other systems.
- Treaties proposed of the AI make much more sense.
- In my game all AI empires are extremely eager to make a treaty. The next turn after I meet them they usually propose a first treaty. While this is good for some races, I would suggest you have some variety with races that will make treaties only rarely.

Very good work! Thank you very much for this mod.

[Romulus68]

In verizion 1.00 I actually had the AI lay a minefield!

I tend to agree that the AI's are a little too quick to offer a treaty. In a small map you get overwhelmed with treaty offers from every race you are in contact with.

So far, I like V1.00 and hope the AI's will be more agressive.