Balance Mod Available for SE:V

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I've put together a version of the Balance Mod that will work with the SE:V version 1.00 release.

The original purpose of this mod was to supplant the default data files that are provided with Space Empires V with balanced files that retained the spirit of the standard game. A collection of SE:V beta testers participated in its development providing suggestions, comments, and some data files to assist in the development of the Balance Mod. Hopefully the mod addresses most of the issues that take away from the standard SE:V game. And of course, the mod will continue to be updated with SE:V and there is always more work to be done - especially with the AI.

You can find out more about it and download it here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

[tmcc]

Thanks CK

[Ironmanbc]

yes more work on the AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Uncle_Joe]

Err, out of curiosity, why wasnt the game 'balanced' to begin with? Is it really that far off? Looking through the list of changes, it appears that quite a bit was changed.

I was really hoping to not have to mod the hell of the game in order to have some semblance of balance. SE4 was pretty awful in its stock form for balance, but I was really hoping that stuff like this would have been a priority for SE5.

Thanks!

[Fyron]

The existence of this balance mod answers such questions, I think. It maintains all of the flavor of SE5 stock, but has had a hammer of balance used on it. Though Kwok did most of the work, there was a lot of discussion with other beta testers going into it.

[Elsemeravin]

Uncle_Joe said:
I was really hoping that stuff like this would have been a priority for SE5.





I think the priority was more on the "moddable" aspect o fthe game which went from incredible (in SEIV) to unbelievable (in SEV)...

[Fyron]

Well, to be fair, it actually is down-graded in this day and age compared to games like Civilization 4... SE5 just feels so stunted after pouring over Civ4 for a while. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, Aaron could have included this AS stock, but didn't.
The betas did encourage balance fixes, but they're impossible to really do piecemeal.

As far as priorities, the stuff we can fix on our own is pretty low. Fixing bugs in the hardcode and making it more flexible and/or useful were the main priorities.

[Elsemeravin]

Is Civ4 very moddable also? I played it but never looked for mod. It actually felt much more boring than SE for me.

[Fyron]

The data is stored in XML files (which you can add new tags to via hooks in the SDK), a lot of the game scripting is done in python files you can change, and much of the core game logic is in a C++ DLL file that there is a SDK for. Almost the entire game can be modified. It's approaching an open source app in terms of how alterable it is.

[Elsemeravin]

Do you have an example or name of mod which radically changed civ4, like adamant for SE ?
So I can check it out, as my mind still cannot accept a game to be more moddable than SE...

[Kana]

For all your Civ needs, including Civ 4...

http://www.civfanatics.com/
http://forums.civfanatics.com/

[Ed Kolis]

Ever heard of the Fall from Heaven mod for Civ4? Turns Civ4 into a fantasy game complete with elves, dwarves, undead, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I think it's more moddable in the sense that you can alter game logic aspects. Although I do think Fyron is selling SE:V a bit short in terms of the game's amount of modability.

But back on topic:

Unfortunately work on the balance mod didn't start soon enough for it to be considered a replacement for the current default data files. I'm still hoping it might be in the future, but I think it's more likely that it might be included as an extra on a Deluxe release etc. The good thing about the internal mod launcher is that it makes just as easy to choose a mod as the standard game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

SE5 is certainly much more moddable than SE4, but you can't say SE5 is one of the most moddable strategy games like you could say of SE4 when it came out... Comparing modifying static text files with a little tiny bit of scripting (events and AI) to being able to program in entirely new types of game logic in any portion of the game engine is apples and oranges. You can't really alter the logic in the game engine in SE5.

Don't worry Kwok, this'll be my last post on this in this topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ed Kolis said:
...Fall from Heaven mod for Civ4?

Make sure to get the FFH2 version, not version 1. FFH2 adds spellcasting, oh my! There is a Genetic Era mod for Warlords that, amongst other things, adds the ability to colonize sea terrain (late in the tech tree, but still). Sure, CTP did it first, but at least it can be "modded" in to Civ4 with the DLL SDK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There are all sorts of nifty little features that various people have made. Check out the Core Community Project for a sampling of them; it's an attempt to get a standardized DLL that different mods can use. There is a mercenaries mod, which adds a way to recruit mercenary units for gold. The Star Wars mod being developed uses it, for one.

[Captain Kwok]

*Kwok uses the spellcaster to rid this thread of Fyron's off-topic posts and casts them into oblivion.

-----

Anyone try out the mod yet? First impressions?

[Atrocities]

This is a very good mod and a tremendous step in the right direction for SE V. You deserve a lot of thanks for this mod Kwok.

[DarkHorse]

Kwok, you are the bomb.

Here's a quote from a Strategy First press release: (from Aaron, I'm sure)

“We here at Malfador Machinations are very excited that “Space Empires V” is finally available for purchase. We’ve put a lot of work into this game, but the work hasn’t stopped. We continue to work with our beta testers and plan on releasing improvements October 16th, 2006!”

Guess we can look for the first patch then.

[cshank2]

Wow, this fixed like, most of the problems I had with SEV.

[Barnacle Bill]

Imperator Fyron said:
The data is stored in XML files (which you can add new tags to via hooks in the SDK), a lot of the game scripting is done in python files you can change, and much of the core game logic is in a C++ DLL file that there is a SDK for. Almost the entire game can be modified. It's approaching an open source app in terms of how alterable it is.



Which actually puts it beyond the reach of most of us.

I modded my own Civ I via hex-editing the game files, but actually accomplished a fair amount (tech tree, etc...) following pretty simple instructions widely available on the BBS pre-Internet of the time.

I modded the crap out of Civ II - that was truly easy to mod. I created wads of my own unit graphics, etc... The engine had its issues, but it was sure easy to mod the tech tree & units.

Civ III was moderately easy to add stuff rolled up by high-enders, but the learning curve for rolling my own units was too steep for my available time (gainfully employed professional with wife & two pre-pubescent kids). So, I just collected units toward the goal of having tribe-specific graphics for all units in all tribes.

Civ IV - fuggidaboudit! A tutorial for what you have to do to add a unit that somebody else rolled makes my eyes glaze over... The Civ III goal lives in spirit (my 3rd grade daughter has developed an interest in this sort of thing, and I'd love to give her the Civ IV of my dreams), but I can't see myself sorting it out...

As to SEV, frankly I love the modability of the data, but I tried my hand as doing flags today and didn't like my results - 3D ship models are clearly beyond my capabilities. So, I'm going to be relying on you high-enders to give me some good stuff!

[Caduceus]

Space Yards for bases are back in early game! Woo!

[Tim_Ward]

Damn, what an improvement.

I played a game, and the Jraenar had sent a fleet of seven ships to "have a word with me" after 36 turns. Unfortunately for them cap ship missiles + fighters >>>> single DU cannon frigates, so the conversation didn't really go their way but in the demo I don't think I ever saw the AI send seven ships anywhere, certainly not that early. I don't know how much of that is down to playing on "hard" and how much is Kwoks tweaking (AI likes base space yards, for instance) but, either way, this is a huge step in the right direction.

[Captain Kwok]

I'm gald you're enjoying it.

One of the things on the AI to-do list is improving their Point-Defense capabilities, particularly at the beginning of the game.

I think the change to how the AI decides its colony types is working out pretty good as they're building much better resource colonies improving their economy greatly.

[Tim_Ward]

Another thing is that the AI really doesn't like researching larger hull sizes. It's about 60 turns in now, and the only AI I've encountered with anything larger than 250kt frigates is one who's spounging technology off me. This is a problem because, amongst the other disadvantages of tiny hulls, there's no room for PD after it's put weapons in.

I've noticed their bases always have some point defence.

[Captain Kwok]

The research files haven't been optimized for the mod yet really. There's been some changes to address the overall reduction in levels, but not much work has been done in prioritizing certain techs. Also on the to-do list.

[Santiago]

Great Mod so far. Keep up the great work. Question tho. Since you made a special version of your mod for 1.00. After the patch, will we have to restart a new game or is the present game we save compatible?

[Captain Kwok]

Santiago said:Great Mod so far. Keep up the great work. Question tho. Since you made a special version of your mod for 1.00. After the patch, will we have to restart a new game or is the present game we save compatible?

Yes, but only because I'm cruel and I want to move the position of some components and stuff like that around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[cshank2]

Hrm, Intel seems buggered. I have 10 to 15 level 2 facilities in my HOME system, and the intel screen shows that I'm not getting any points. Bug?

[Captain Kwok]

I haven't experience any problems with intel points not showing up. Silly question, but the planet has population etc?

[AngleWyrm]

You can't really alter the logic in the game engine in SE5.



I've been working on doing just exactly that. The AI scripting language is quite rich, and so I've been working on adding a layer of multi-turn strategic planning to a race. Eventually it could become a Commanders and Heros mod, but it's got quite a ways to go yet.

Anyone know the variable scoping rules as they relate to turn processing?

CK, during the early part of a game I set everything to hard (no tech points, bad homeworlds, no bonus race points, many hard enemies, etc). I met the Phong, who were happy to see me and agreed to a treaty that involved showing me their ship designs. They all seem great (I like that supplies & ordinance now count as cargo).

Except one ship came out odd: They designed a SpaceYard Ship, without having the hull space for it. It was fitted into an early Frigate, but with your mod it is possible to put it into a later model Freighter. So their design algo might need a cross-check and a hull switch.
http://home.comcast.net/~anglewyrm/spaceyardship.jpg

[cshank2]

Aye, and my race has Natural Merchants, PLUS a spaceport in it. So it SHOULD be coming through. Resources and Research are coming through fine, but Intel is just being lethargic or some such.

[President_Elect_Shang]

This is a wonderful mod that makes “Stock” playable.

On behalf of Edward Jr., Amber, and myself,
Thank you CPT Kwok

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks Shang! Lots of improvements to be made still though! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

-----

AngleWyrm:
There needs to be some work done on entering size restrictions for various ship types. Right now the scripts are not setup in any real fashion to facilitate doing this, but I do plan on getting to it soon.

This sort of thing was also a problem with how weapons and stuff were being added onto units. The scripts set certain percentages of hull space to be used for weapons, armor and shields, but the default files only specify this for ships, WPs, and "units". In many cases, the values were not appropriate, especially after I reduced the size of the units and balanced the ship sizes and engine space amounts etc. I had to add new variables to create guidelines for each one instead in order to make them to better designs.

-----

Note that you can use the auto-complete function with just about any ship type in the list.

[aegisx]

I noticed on the balance mod when I auto-comleted an entry level troop that it did not place a weapon on it and only filled 3/8. It put a cockpit and 2 engines.

[Captain Kwok]

That's odd. I get 2 thrusters (2kT), a DUC (3kT), a cockpit (1kT), a Combat Sensor (1kT) and an armor (1kT). Did you pick "Troop" for the design type? It's easy to choose another one by mistake.

[aegisx]

I think I may have chosen attack ship... good call

[AngleWyrm]

Ok, one possibility (assuming the scripts are fairly similar), this is my understanding of what's going on -- correct me if I'm horribly wrong!

in Script_AI_DesignCreation.txt -> Can_Create_Design_Type_Of_Type()
it does a Pick_Vehicle_Size(), which gets the size from a global lst_AI_Design_Type_Vehicle_Size list. That list is populated in Script_AI_Global_Settings.txt -> AI_Set_Race_Design_Types().

So the entry for "Space Yard Ship" in AI_Set_Race_Design_Types function could have:
set veh_size_class := AI_VEHICLE_SIZE_CLASS_FREIGHTER

As to minimum space needed for a viable design (part + requirements) I'm not sure if the function exists, but could be created if it's not:
is_minimum_space_available() could be called during Can_Create_Design_Of_Type(), and bail if there isn't room.

Bleh, I'm cross-eyed now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

It's just a matter of figuring out how to use the vehicle_tonnage variable for a ship that has prevented me from fixing that up really.

[TNZ]

Just an idea but how about some smaller facilities, like this.

[Captain Kwok]

Nice ideas but the goal was to keep it as "stock-like" as possible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[AngleWyrm]

Found system-level tonnage functions:

Sys_Get_Vehicle_Size_Tonnage_Space: long
plr_index:long
size_id:long

Sys_Get_Component_Tonnage_Space: long
plr_index: long
comp_id: long
comp_enh_id: long

Sys_Get_Vehicle_Design_Remaining_Tonnage_Space: long
design_id: long

//////////////
Looking at the internals of Add_Required_Components_To_Design, the function returns a boolean success, which might be feathered in as a bail flag if a large componant doesn't fit:

replacing:
if (comp_id > 0) then
call Add_Components_To_Vehicle_Design()
set bool_continue_design := TRUE
endif

with:
if (comp_id > 0) then
bool_continue_design := Add_Components_To_Vehicle_Design()
endif

[Tim_Ward]

The new patch does in fact break the balance mod.

It says: "could not find field "override InvConfig Slots" in record 1"

EDIT: Doh. Just add the line "Override InvConfiguration Slots := FALSE" to mod_definition.txt

EDIT 2: Also add "Space Combat Ends Only When Time Up Or No Enemies := FALSE" to settings.txt.

[Elsemeravin]

Tim_Ward said:
The new patch does in fact break the balance mod.

It says: "could not find field "override InvConfig Slots" in record 1"

EDIT: Doh. Just add the line "Override InvConfiguration Slots := FALSE" to mod_definition.txt

EDIT 2: Also add "Space Combat Ends Only When Time Up Or No Enemies := FALSE" to settings.txt.




I've been told CK had a balance mod version for 1.07 version.

[Captain Kwok]

I should have posted here earlier. An updated version of the Balance Mod will not be ready until later tonight. I'm stuck at work right now and then I have to test a few changes I made first before I can post the update. I'll be sure to let you know when that is.

[Caduceus]

Error message attached.

[Phoenix-D]

Bug in the latest version of the balance mod- at least for me, anytime I try to generate a map with the mod on, the game hangs.

[Captain Kwok]

Phoenix-D said:
Bug in the latest version of the balance mod- at least for me, anytime I try to generate a map with the mod on, the game hangs.

Ack. I didn't take down the download fast enough. It was the wrong AtmosphereTypes.txt file - one of my SFEmod files got mixed in there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

It should be ok to download now though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Yoda]

Thanks Kwok! big improvement on stock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[wrongshui]

My level 5 Space Yard ship components are building at a rate of 10,000kts, this can't be right.

[Captain Kwok]

wrongshui said:
My level 5 Space Yard ship components are building at a rate of 10,000kts, this can't be right.

Have you patched to 1.08? If not, I'm assuming you have selected Hardy Industrialists?

[wrongshui]

Ive patched to 1.08 and im using hardy industrialists.

[Captain Kwok]

Hmm. Are you continuing a game that was started under 1.00?

[wrongshui]

Nope, new game.

[Tim_Ward]

Kowk, would it be possible to have a look at the copy of Script_AI_ColonyType you used for this?

[wrongshui]

in the components.txt if I change the amount to just [%level%] it gives me a rate of 28 when it should be 5. What could cause that?

[Tim_Ward]

Elves.

[wrongshui]

Those damn dirty elves. I'll 'ave um.

[Captain Kwok]

Ack, confirmed. There was a bug that applied the HI trait twice on BSYs that was fixed but looks like it's crept back in. *sigh*

[wrongshui]

Strange thing is I get this in stock SE aswell, Ship based space yards are producing too much.

[Captain Kwok]

Yes, that is because it is a SE:V bug not a mod bug. It was fixed in 1.06, but it seems it got broken again. Not sure why though.

-----

On a side note, I've had Fyron create a forum for the Balance Mod at Spaceempires.net:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-73.html

[wrongshui]

Oh I see. Alrighty then, i'll abuse it while I can.

[aegisx]

Kwok, I don't think there is a Point Defense ship type in stock, what do you think about one for balanced? The AI might need code changes to use them too.

[Captain Kwok]

aegisx said:
Kwok, I don't think there is a Point Defense ship type in stock, what do you think about one for balanced? The AI might need code changes to use them too.

It's funny that you should say that as I'm working on doing that right now during my lunch break. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[aegisx]

cool, can't to try it out. I guess the tricky part will be to tell the AI when they need PD ships in their fleets.

[Captain Kwok]

aegisx said:
cool, can't to try it out. I guess the tricky part will be to tell the AI when they need PD ships in their fleets.

Well they should have them all the time, but more importantly is getting them to build enough of them to be effective in practice, but not too many to reduce overall fleet strength.

[aegisx]

Are their any API functions that will let you get what kind of weapons an enemy tends to used based on intel or battle experience?

[AngleWyrm]

Sys_Does_Vehicle_Design_Have_Component_With_Name: boolean
design_id: long
component_name: string

Sys_Does_Vehicle_Design_Have_Ability_With_Name: boolean
plr_index: long
design_id: long
ability_name: string

Sys_Get_Vehicle_Design_Date_Last_Seen: long
design_id: long
plr_index: long

[aegisx]

Kwok, Point Defense seems a bit overpowered. I made 2 PD frigates (L3) that each had 4 L1 PD cannons. I faced them against 5 Frigates with 2 capital ship missiles each. They shot down every missile without a problem. PD should be that good with some more tech (or better targetting computers) but right now it seems a bit much.

[AngleWyrm]

Some calculations on the BalanceMod fighter counts:

http://home.comcast.net/~anglewyrm/fightercounts.gif

A first level Light Carrier has 650kt * 40% = 260kt fighter bays, or nine bays. So it can carry 54 fighters minimum. If you take four engines per fighter (at 50 supplies each) times 54 fighters, that's 10,800 supplies per launch.

Since there is no room for that much supplies on board, the alternative is to add the required fighter bays, and leave them empty, or not use carrier hulls.

[aegisx]

yikes... I think I am going to need bigger supply ships for carriers.

[AngleWyrm]

Also, getting solar systems to generate that amount of supplies is going to take a lot of resupply centers.

[Captain Kwok]

AW, your chart is not quite accurate. There are only 5 levels of Fighter Bays (every odd level of Fighters) and so the max capacity is 200kT.

Before I had Small Engines store 25 supplies and use 1 supply - but that had to be changed because the Supply Conservation racial trait would round that down to 0, so I bumped it up 50 supplies and 2 usage.

Anyhow I am working on a slightly modified system for fighter supply. I'll post about it later.

[Captain Kwok]

Woops I forgot something else I wanted to add. Note that fighters do retain their own supply storage as well in addition to the carriers storage - so the usage isn't as dramatic as illustrated.

[aegisx]

Kwok, see my note about PD? I've played with it some more, still seems like they either fire too fast or are too accurate.

[Captain Kwok]

Patch 1.07 had a PD fix for time rates that has seemed to post the overall effectiveness of PD and I haven't had much time to experiment under it yet.

[aegisx]

Kwok,

I changed some values for PD in Components (
Name := Point - Defense Cannons
):

Weapon Reload Rate MS Formula := 1000

and

Weapon Bolt Speed := 0.06

These seem to work better. I did 3 missile frigates (2 L2 capitals each) vs 2 PD ships ( 4 L1 PD's each ). The PD ships held off initially, but missiles started to get through, which seems appropriate in that case.

I wonder if the Reload time should also take the level into account.

[Captain Kwok]

So it turns out it was a simple error in percentage that was preventing the AI from putting PD on Frigates! Anyways, I also have the AI designing and in theory building dedicated PD ships. I'll need to run a quick AI game to see exactly what they are up to.

Regarding PD rates - I'll probably keep them the same. However, I'm going to increase their damage min-max range. The reasoning behind this is that missiles come in stacks and if you're going to reduce the fire rate then you're only ever going to hit the first missile and the second will always get through etc. If you can get one or two shots at each missile with a damage amount that is ~50% able to destroy the missile in one hit you'll get situations where sometimes the missiles are stopped or sometimes they leak through. This was how it was working more or less prior to the 1.08 patch.

[aegisx]

If the PD range is good, it will get to fire at the missiles more than once too.

I'll experiment when you put it out.

[AngleWyrm]

bug: Fighter bays do not recover fighters from space, they only launch them.

I like the way fighters are launched per bay on a timer! That's major cool. It requires planning a strike so that carriers approach the target until empty, so that fighters can overpower defenses.

[Desdinova]

Captain Kwok how did you get the components seperated by category instead of just alphabetized? I have tried rearranging the components to my preference in the components.txt file but they still end up alphabetized. Is there another file i need to modify?

[Captain Kwok]

I posted about turning off alpha-sort in the modding thread.

-----

I'm just about ready to post a brief update for the Balance mod. It fixes a few typos and tweaks the AI a bit more.

[Desdinova]

thanks.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I've posted version 0.91 of the Balance Mod. It fixes some bugs/typos and makes a few AI improvements. They should be building more units and equipping their smaller ships with PD. It's compatible with v0.90 saved games.

http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

[AngleWyrm]

Fighter bays need this ability added:

Ability 2 Type := Units - Recover
Ability 2 Description := Can recover fighters from space.
Ability 2 Scope := Space Object
Ability 2 Range Formula := 0
Ability 2 Amount 1 Formula := "Fighter"
Ability 2 Amount 2 Formula := 0

[Captain Kwok]

Just a note, the download was still point to the 0.90 version, so if you downloaded between now and when I first posted, you probably need to download again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Kamog]

Thank you, Captain Kwok. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kamog]

When I start a new game I get this error and SEV crashes. How can I fix it?

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/460896-error.jpg

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Don't start a new game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Ack. Delete the soundeffects.txt file from the data folder. It's the one for TG's sound mod. ;P

[Kamog]

That fixed it. Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[aegisx]

What do you think about having the Capital Ship missile's (and maybe other missiles/rockets) defensive bonus modified by the empires Armor level? It would stand to reason they would have better armor/hulls as their tech increases.

[Raapys]

Any chance you could have a look at the AI treaties stuff Kwok( i.e. disable some of the options for the AI)? It's sort of game-breaking when the AIs make silly treaties that prevents them from expanding and researching :|

[Captain Kwok]

I actually did modify some of the maximum anger values allowed for different treaty conditions, but unfortunately in my quick test games for the last update I didn't see much of a difference, but I'll continue to work on it as time permits.

[aegisx]

I did some PD tests, it is still overpowered. I did a 4 on 2 test and the 2 PD ships shot down every missile. All 4 ships were even firing their missiles at the same time (2 a piece).

I increased the defensive bonus on the missiles and they started to leak through.

[Captain Kwok]

That's not exactly an accurate test though. Try mixing up a large missile fleet versus a DUC fleet with a couple of PD ships and see what happens.

[aegisx]

I'll give that a shot too, but in any case should 4 missile frigates be able to take on 2 frigates with L1 PD's? If they had more advanced PD systems sure...

[aegisx]

Well I can't seem to test fleets in the simulator as it hangs the game after I add ships (they don't even show up in the new fleet).

[aegisx]

Another idea, hope you don't find this annoying of me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For capital ship missiles:

Weapon Seeker Tonnage Structure Formula := 10 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 1) + (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Armor") * 10)

This would provide missile armor (this doesn;t cover the other kinds of armor though).

Also, the damage a missile causes could be affected by the warhead tech level.

These arn't really PD fixes, but it might be nice to have some of the components affected by other techs.

[Captain Kwok]

You don't have to be testing fleets or anything, just add about 10 ships per side and see how it goes.

I'm not sure if I'm going to mod in some of the more advanced techniques for the Balance Mod as I'm going for stock-like, but I can always change my mind. Mu ha ha ha.

[aegisx]

I did 6 MF (missile) vs 4 DU's and 2 PD's. The test run had the DU's and PD's sitting there taking it and they did... the PD's were shooting down pretty much everything. A couple got through, but not many.

Wonder if I can create a Kwok++....

[wrongshui]

Im 209 turns into a balance Mod game, I just logged into all the empires as Im having an issue with it hanging when a new empire is created. Half of all the other empires planets are rebeling, is this normal?

[Captain Kwok]

Can you e-mail me the saved game? Capt-Kwok at rogers dot com...

[Raapys]

I did the same and logged into the empires in my game. That was *really* depressing. At turn 180 none of them had developed Medium sized ships, most had around 6k research points, all but 2-3 of them had yet to leave their first system and discover any other empires(!), all but one or two of them had minor to severe maintenance problems, one guy had a mineral generation of 100k but only 10k maintenance; he didn't have *any* ships at all, at least 3 or 4 empires had just about all of their planets rebelling, etc. Hmm.

[Baron Munchausen]

aegisx said:
What do you think about having the Capital Ship missile's (and maybe other missiles/rockets) defensive bonus modified by the empires Armor level? It would stand to reason they would have better armor/hulls as their tech increases.



No, not the defense bonus. That should be ECM (Defense Systems) tech. The seekers hit points should be affected by the level of armor tech. I've already done both of these for myself:

Weapon Seeker Tonnage Structure Formula := 30 + (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Armor") * 2)
Weapon Seeker Defense Modifier Formula := 30 + (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Defense Systems") * 2)

[Captain Kwok]

The main culprit is the Government traits... the happiness values are just too much to counter and there isn't sufficient time for the empires to build troops to counter. Working on it asap as it is absolutely killing the AI.

-----

I've reduced the to-hit bonuses on PD with 2 exceptions as they don't need the bonus with the general change to -5% accuracy per 10 range introduced in v0.90 and the recent PD fix.

-----

Thanks for sending in save games - I often struggle to get enough turns in to watch behaviour so they really help.

[Kana]

Captain Kwok said:
You don't have to be testing fleets or anything, just add about 10 ships per side and see how it goes.

I'm not sure if I'm going to mod in some of the more advanced techniques for the Balance Mod as I'm going for stock-like, but I can always change my mind. Mu ha ha ha.



And KwokStock was really born....

[Raapys]

I've been thinking. The computer seem to colonize even the 'dome' planets in their system, which isn't really that smart. So, if 'Players can only colonize planets with a breathable atmosphere' is on, that should improve the computer's performance quite a bit, shouldn't it? He'd be forced out of his own system and he'd not waste population and colony ships on useless planets.

Most of the empires didn't have rebellions( in fact I think all 2-3 AIs that had rebellions had control over 2-3 solar systems), yet they didn't appear to be doing any better than those that did, so there seem to be more/bigger issues here too.

[Raven]

Bug - I have built an Organic Large Freighter, and it has a movement of 82.
Each contra-terrene engine (16 of them) adds 5 hexes to its movement.

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks! It was the result of a faulty engines-per-move value. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I've had some success in the upcoming v0.92 version getting the AI to explore more systems and expand faster by making resupply depots the first priority in a new system before spaceports, designated more ships as explorers, and tweaking construction queues for facilities...

However - at some point the AI just stops expanding and goes into a comatose state regardless if they have excess resources. I'm thinking that the AI stops building design types once it reaches some number of total ships/units for the number of colonies it has and that is what is preventing further expansion.

[DarkHorse]

Maybe it's something about the AI state, like when they meet other races they go from explore/expand to consolidate and sit around, or something.

[Raapys]

I've seen them doing it without any contacts and only their home system explored though.

Also Kwok, I've not yet seen *any* empire research other than the Frigate size ships, i.e. they research it to level 3 then dismiss the rest completely. Guessing it has something to do with the altered tech tree in the mod? The AI also seem a wee bit too interested in researching that cultural stuff.

[Tim_Ward]

Captain Kwok said:
I've had some success in the upcoming v0.92 version getting the AI to explore more systems and expand faster by making resupply depots the first priority in a new system before spaceports, designated more ships as explorers, and tweaking construction queues for facilities...

However - at some point the AI just stops expanding and goes into a comatose state regardless if they have excess resources. I'm thinking that the AI stops building design types once it reaches some number of total ships/units for the number of colonies it has and that is what is preventing further expansion.



Can't you ask Aaron? I assume he wrote the scripts orginally. I know he's only one guy and everything, but this is his game which he is selling for money, and the AI is probably the single biggest issue with it right now.

[aegisx]

I'm not sure if kwok changed this in his but...

call Add_Tech_Area("Light Hull Construction", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Medium - Light Hull Construction", 1)

Is it witing to reach level 5 in Light Hull before going to Medium? It will never reach level 5, as level 3 is the max.

[Captain Kwok]

The levels are changed for ships, but the "rough order" hasn't been optimized. I'll push ship construction ahead though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[aegisx]

Any chance of releasing the source to your csf? I'd like to see the improved colony selection (I'm working on a new Empire and that would help speed things up).

[AngleWyrm]

I've been doing some work on a custom race AI_Setup Script; it's for the stock game right now, but could easily be modified. Here's the tech section so far:
//------------------------------------------------------------
// Main
//
function Main returns boolean
vars
racial_points : long
index : long
begin

// Select Racial Traits -------------------------------------
// Four levels exist in stock: 0k, 2k, 3k and 5k

// sell low-priority traits
call Add_Racial_Trait("Physical Weakness")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Cowardly")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Environmental Weakness")

// 0k+ racial points, always take these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Mining Aptitude")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Natural Merchants")

// 2k+ racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Ancient Race")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Hardy Industrialists")

// 3k+ racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("High Reproduction")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Naturally Happy")

// 5k racial points, add these
call Add_Racial_Trait("Propulsion Experts")
call Add_Racial_Trait("Lucky")


// Select Technologies --------------------------------------
// Five levels of technology start exist in stock: 0, 100k, 1m, 10m, All
// with an additional post-start bonus of 0, 5k, 20k, or 100k
// AI players can also be given an AI bonus

call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Sattelites", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Construction", 2)
call Add_Tech_Area("Mines", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Warheads", 3)

call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Weapon Platforms", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Missile Weapons", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Armor", 2)

call Add_Tech_Area("Physics", 2)
call Add_Tech_Area("Shields", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Energy Pulse Weapons", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Fighters", 1)
call Add_Tech_Area("Smaller Weapons", 3)

// Spend any remaining points
call Add_Tech_Area("Intelligence Services", 3)
call Add_Tech_Area("Light Hull Construction", 5)
call Add_Tech_Area("Repair", 5)

set index := 3
loop
call Add_Tech_Area("Minerals Extraction", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Applied Research", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Shields", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Energy Pulse Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Armor", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Missile Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Point - Defense Weapons", index)
call Add_Tech_Area("Organics Extraction", (index - 1) )
call Add_Tech_Area("Radioactives Extraction", (index - 1) )
call Add_Tech_Area("Space Yards", index )
call Add_Tech_Area("Sensors", (index + 1) )

set index := index + 1
exitwhen (index >= 20)
endloop

call Add_Tech_Area("Quantum Engine", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Medium Hull Construction", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Repair", 50)
call Add_Tech_Area("Large Base Construction", 10)
call Add_Tech_Area("Fighters", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Sattelites", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Mines", 9)
call Add_Tech_Area("Planet Utilization", 20)

return TRUE
end

[CosmoLizard]

well, i still dont understand some concepts in some files of the game

the most clueless to me is that racial+goverment+society plus and minus , i mean some races can have +5 in racial, then -3 in goverment and then -3 in society, and the result is -1 in that ability, knowing that the races cant change the goverments -cant, no?- i find such + and - very dumb, dont know , if im wrong pls tell me -im talking about the game in general, not specifically about this mod -

regards

[AngleWyrm]

There's a lot of files, where are you seeing this?

[Suicide Junkie]

Almost everything is +/- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Aaron really likes additive modifiers...

[Captain Kwok]

Some good news that I'm seeing in one of my AI test games. They are now building some of the new design types (like Supply and PD ships) and even sticking them in fleets. There also utilizing units more along with BSYs and defense bases. On the downside, still having trouble getting them to build "excess" ships (ie more than 10) though even when they have a nice positive resource balance.

[Raapys]

What's the deciding factor for how many ships they'll build anyway? Number of planets, or just resources? I'm wondering if it's actually useful for the AI to build bases, though. Perhaps those resources be better spent in units/ships.

I've never actually encountered AI Satellites so far: Do they place them tactically to guard the waypoints or are they just randomly placed( i.e. only on one side of the warp point so anyone can escape out the other side )?

[Captain Kwok]

They weren't building too many satellites before, but in the updated version they'll build them and actually drop some off at WPs if they've built a sat layer.

I'm not sure what the issue is in my test games, I have trouble getting the AI to build more than 10 ships - but I see Devnullicus has a game going where most AIs have 20 or so ships with less resources...

Anyway I've sent off an e-mail to Aaron asking for him to elaborate on such matters.

[Raapys]

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sev3ha8.jpg

That's 40'ish turns in with max AI bonus and 'colonize breathable planets only'. Doesn't look like resources actually have much/anything to say about how many ships and units they build: the one with the highest resource score doesn't have the most ships/units. Notice how none of them( including me *_*) have built intelligence thingies, and few of them bother increasing research much.

[Captain Kwok]

The number of planets colonized isn't sufficient enough to ensure the AI will likely have a colony of each type. I plan on adding some extra lines for the AI to look at the available space and with resource-poor breathables to build a mix of non-resource facilities instead.

Anyway it's good to see that they are building larger numbers of ships in other people's games. I will have to double check to see if it's a setup issue on my end.

[Raapys]

The problems are mostly that he falls way too far behind regarding research, making my ships be worth several of his, and the way he suddenly stops expanding. Perhaps force the AI to have at least one colony ship and two active scouts at all times, if that's possible?

Just noticed some rather major problems:

As far as I can tell, *none* of the "Mining Colony", "Farming Colony" etc. types actually include a Resupply depot! The AI has filled up a breathable Mining Colony with 19 mining facilities and 1 space port. No wonder he can't expand, his homeworld is the only supply base! Obviously all the colony types should include at least 1 Resupply depot, and possibly a space yard if enough space?

Also, there's a *ton* of units on all the AIs homeworlds: weapon platforms, troops and fighters. Waste of resources I'd say, would be far better to use them defending the system and warp points, instead of just one planet.

[Captain Kwok]

Most of those changes have been made in v0.92 that I've been working on. Resupply Depots are now the second facility after Spaceports to be built in a new system. Although this doesn't appear as the only hiccup for expansion, but it does seem to help somewhat. Another area of code calls for the reduction of explorer ships when new races are encountered - which might be a second hiccup. The AI in v0.92 is also launching fighters into space (believe it or not, there is no code for this function in stock) and satellites as well. If the AI does decide to build troop transports it will add them to fleets and if it makes sat layers it will place sats at WPs that lead to unknown or enemy systems.

Re: Research, I know the paths are not optimized but there is also some randomness involved - the AI will be big on research if it just happens to a colonize a big breathable planet that is resource poor and already has less than 10% of its total colonies as research colonies.

In SE:IV it was easy to specify numbers and types of ships that AI should have for the number of colonies it had etc. Now it's a lot less obvious with "priority" values attached to a design type and other factors that are not exactly clear.

[Captain Kwok]

Good news! I was running through the calculations on paper and figured out what my problem was on the ship construction front in the v0.92 update. It turns out I had changed one of the base values in the wrong direction and that is what was capping the number of AI ships in my test games. Anyhow I'm going to build a spreadhsheet at lunch to facilitate new values and I'm fairly confident that I can get the AI building ships in greater numbers and in greater diversity - which will certainly help with expansion. Unfortunately I'm stuck at work so I won't be able to test it out until later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Raapys]

That's great! At the very least it can make the AI much harder when given bonuses, and in general create a more interesting game with the bigger variety of ships and units.

Might want to consider putting Supply Depot as the first facility? Since spaceports take 5 turns, that means a total of 8 turns before the AI gets supplies in that system, as opposed to 3 turns if the Depot is prioritized. Spaceport is probably less urgent since the colony will probably be too busy building facilities to construct ships the first few turns.

Satellites at warp points will be great. Does the computer have any way of placing them optimally, though? I've noticed that's a big issue in SE V: unless the Satellites are placed all around the warp point in the sector view, just about anything can get through and run away.

Is the AI prevented from agreeing to / proposing no-research and expansion-hindering pacts in 0.92? I've noticed alot of the AIs in my games have such pacts, which obviously is rather silly considering there's already enough AI problems: we don't need AIs that purposely wont do any research or colonize new systems because of a pact.

[Tim_Ward]

Since spaceports take 5 turns, that means a total of 8 turns before the AI gets supplies in that system, as opposed to 3 turns if the Depot is prioritized. Spaceport is probably less urgent since the colony will probably be too busy building facilities to construct ships the first few turns.



That's space yards.


Is the AI prevented from agreeing to / proposing no-research and expansion-hindering pacts in 0.92? I've noticed alot of the AIs in my games have such pacts, which obviously is rather silly considering there's already enough AI problems: we don't need AIs that purposely wont do any research or colonize new systems because of a pact.



Also remove the no bombardment option, until the AI is able to use troops effectively.

[tmcc]

Captain Kwok said:
Resupply Depots are now the second facility after Spaceports to be built in a new system. Although this doesn't appear as the only hiccup for expansion, but it does seem to help somewhat.



Captain Kwok, with all due respect I think it is more logical to build the Resupply Depots first. Either way it is six turns until the colony is building "revenue" generating facilities, assuming no emergency build. If you build the Resupply first then 3 of those 6 turns the planet will be generating supply and ordnance. If the Spaceport is 1st then it just sits there providing no value for 3 turns while Resupply is being built.

The one exception that I use is when another very high value planet in the same system will be colonized and have it's first facility complete in less than 6 turns. In that case I will build the Spaceport first, but only if I need the resources pretty urgently. Probably too complex a decision for the AI though.

[Captain Kwok]

I did place the RDs first but for some reason the AI wouldn't get to building a spaceport for a much longer time and lots of resources would be lost when other planets were colonized - although this is not what should have happened. I did note at the time though there was some resource issues and dropped construction so I'll have to do more testing to identify the cause. But I agree that is the most "human" behaviour to build the RD first.

It's not really possible to have the AI to use the "hop" method of colonizing to claim as much space as possible because you can't explicity tell it to build a colony ship at the frontier colony etc.

[AngleWyrm]

Thinking about Frontier Space Yards concept, I came up with this idea:

lst_Frontier_WarpPoints : int

which is a count of warp point space objects in colonized systems that don't lead to other colonized systems.

I'm not sure how sorting works in this game; is it parallel lists? If so, it might be possible to sort a list of colonies, filtered by spaceyard, on lst_Frontier_WarpPoints.

[Captain Kwok]

The script already marks "frontier" WPs as those that are not explored or ones that are connected to systems owned by other empires. The code is in the Fx[Examine_Solar_System] in Script_AI_Lists.txt which marks them for primary and secondary "patrol" locations. They are also interpreted as locations to drop satellites, mines, and build bases if SY Ships are around.

[AngleWyrm]

Not sure if I'm reading this right, but it looks like after executing Examine_Solar_System which contains:<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> // Warp Points to unseen systems or systems with enemies.
if (plr_has_colony) then
if (not Sys_Have_Seen_System(sys_long_Player_ID, dest_sys)) or (lst_AI_Enemy_System_Strengths.Get(dest_sys) &gt; 0) then
call lst_AI_Patrol_System.add(sys_index)
call lst_AI_Patrol_Sector.add(wp_sect)
else
// Warp Points in system where we have colonies to systems where we don't.
if (not Sys_Player_Has_Colony_In_System(sys_long_Player_ID , dest_sys)) then
call lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_System.add(sys_index)
call lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_Sector.add(wp_sect)
endif
endif
endif</pre><hr />
will result in lst_AI_Patrol_System with a list of frontier systems, and lst_AI_Patrol_Secondary_System will contain a list of adjoining unexplored/enemy systems.

If so, then maybe we get/sort a list of colony shipyards that are in PatrolSystems. Then that list of shipyards would be well suited for expansion colony ships

[Uncle_Joe]

I'm holding out a lot of hope for this mod. Because really, I've given up on the base game. Hopefully y'all can get the AI sorted out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Excellent news. I compiled the scripts I made earlier today when I got home and the difference is amazing. The only problem now is that the AI is not finding planets fast enough to colonize!

Here are the turn 25 stats of a test game with AI low bonus only:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/461931-balancemod-ai-turn25.png

As soon as I fix up the silly treaty business I'll upload the new version.

[Tim_Ward]

That is a sight for sore eyes.


Uncle_Joe said:
I'm holding out a lot of hope for this mod. Because really, I've given up on the base game. Hopefully y'all can get the AI sorted out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



As far as I'm concerned, this *is* stock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Raapys]

Ooooh, excellent! Kwok saves the day( and the game).

When the research paths have been optimized this should definitely be considered for a stock-patch IMO. 1.08 stock is frankly a joke.

[Tim_Ward]

Compare and contrast. Turn 25 of version 0.91. Same settings as Kowk. I'd changed settings so that planets and warp points can be seen without exploring a system, to aid the AI in it's finding planets to colonise (I'd notice it not exploring systems, and just leaving a ship at the warp point for a bit then sending it home, thus leaving potentual breathable atmosphere planets just out of sight.) Without that, I don't the AI would even have done this well.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f373/timward/AI25.jpg

(No, I wasn't trying very hard, just spamming colony ships and moving a few frigates I built around. still got third.)

You'll notice that the top rated AI player has a score lower than the lowest ranked AI player in latest version. And that was the Eee, who should benefit more from being able to see all the planets. No other AI came close.

[Raapys]

You fixing the issue with the AI not researching ship sizes further for this release Kwok?

I'm a little worried the AI is building too many units, though. Fine in SE4, but here where we have maintenance etc., how will the AI fare late-game? I'm guessing it's unlikely he'll go pick up his deployed satellites etc. and retrofit them? So he'll probably have uncountable wastly outdated units everywhere sucking up his resources with maintenance, unless there's a heavy AI bonus.

Also, lots of units with maintenance really diminish his ability to be offensive as he'll have to cut down on real attack ships.

Thoughts?

[aegisx]

Kwok, could you please include the csf source? I'd like to compile empires based on your modified include scripts.

[Dizzy]

Unit maintenance is dumb it seems. How do i turn it off?

[Suicide Junkie]

settings.txt:

Empire Starting Unit Percent Maint Cost := 0

[Kamog]

This is wonderful news. Thank you Captain Kwok, for your excellent work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dizzy]

Suicide Junkie said:
settings.txt:

Empire Starting Unit Percent Maint Cost := 0



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Edit: Can this be changed mid save game w/o issue?

[Captain Kwok]

I've posted v0.92 for download:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

I did a quick tweak to the AI research files to push some of the ship techs ahread. I always temporarily disabled some of the treaty elements until I can figure out how to change them appropriately - so *in theory* the AI shouldn't offer harmful things like no research or "one-way" treaty elements. Let me know if you see otherwise.

I will make the source scripts available shortly.

Changelog:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.92 (24 October 2006)
------------------------------

1. Changed - Made adjustments to supply and ordnance amounts for weapons
2. Changed - Removed or reduced to-hit modifiers for Point-Defense weapons
3. Fixed - Restored accuracy at range modifier for Phased-Polaron Beam
4. Changed - Bonuses from GovernmentTypes.txt to reduce riots and rebellions
5. Changed - Reduced size of happiness bonuses in SocietyTypes.txt
6. Changed - Reduced Recreational Services cultural achievement to 5 levels
7. Fixed - Error in damage at accuracy decrease for Ionic Disperser
8. Changed - Only the most recent type of Plague Bomb will appear now
9. Changed - Increase Resupply Depot amounts for supply and ordnance
10. Fixed - Error in Wave-Motion Gun tech requirement
11. Fixed - Error in movement amount for Large Organic Freighter
12. Changed - Added "Ordnance Generation" ability to Ordnance Storage to counter Ordnance bug in 1.08 (Temporary Fix)
13. Changed - Reduced Ship Maint to 20%, Unit and Facility Maint to 5%
14. Changed - Starting reproduction rate to 5% from 10%
15. Changed - Increased starting storage amount to 100000
16. Changed - Minor tweaks to AI research and politics
17. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

[Raapys]

First bug, Viral Bomb, Plague Bomb, Nanovirus Bomb etc., are now available from the start O_O Level 4 starting plague sounds sort of overpowered.

The Nanovirus Bomb also has 25 damage at 300 range? Shouldn't the range on those bombs be sort of short?

[Captain Kwok]

Oops. Two faulty entries are responsible for the little plague bomb error. I'll fix it up for v0.93. The range wasn't defined in the file, but it should be 150-200 when it's fixed.

[Moriarty]

The mod looks like it could be interesting. I've not played it yet (that's next http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but a few comments/suggestions:

a) I'm using winmerge to compare it to stock SEV, and its noting that apart from the header comment and the tail comment that the "BitmapEffects_*" files are all identical to the stock release. Odd.
This is also true to for the AtmosphereTypes, Happiness, IntelFocusAreas, ScoreWeighting, VehicleUnitTypes, XFileClasses_Stellar .txt files. :?:

b) I note you've added another colony type "resource colony". Might I suggest one last colony type: "Miscellaneous Colony" (or some such) for when your colony can't fit any of the other.

c) The order of the colony types always seemed a little off to me as there was obvious pattern for the order they're layed out it. So I changed it to this:

Name := Mining Colony

Name := Farming Colony

Name := Refining Colony

Name := Resource Colony

Name := Construction Yard

Name := Resupply Base

Name := Military Installation

Name := Research Compound

Name := Intelligence Compound

Name := Miscellaneous Planet


Seems more logical now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


d) You've altered the number of engines required for a ship to move. But I note an inconsistancy. Specifically the destroyer requires 3 engines per move yet has a max of 7 engines. I'm guessing that 7th is a spare. Yet neither the cruiser, battleship or lght carrier have that spare engine.

Also, the dreadnaught &amp; carrier require 10 engines yet have a capacity for 16? That's a lot of spares - more than the baseship (3), but less than the hvy carrier (8)



A suggestion relating to the AI discussion above - Does the AI both prioritizing research for colonisation of different world types? Because if he can colonise other world types, he's just doubled/tripled the number of worlds available to him.

But it certainly looks like a nice mod. Off to go and break it now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Edit: What are the .csf file types? A quick google finds nothing and there is no reference on the wiki that I can see.

[Captain Kwok]

A few responses:

a) Those files are in the active queue for a change or two with the exception of AtmosphereTypes.txt

b) At this time I'm only adding colony types that can be understood and used by the AI. I do have plans to expand the list though.

c) It doesn't matter. They are alpha-sorted in the game anyways.

d) It's not an inconsistency. Engines provide 5 standard movement points and each ship has a different engines-per-move (ie how many engines does it take to generate the 5 movement points) value. So a destroyer can move 7eng*5mp/3epm or 11 movepoints (it's always truncated). Note that bigger ships do move slower as well - so a Dreadnought would do 16eng*5mp/10epm for 8 movement.

e) Colonization is an expensive tech that can led to the AI being outclassed by its enemies early on because they are lacking in ship tech like sensors or weapons. I have it set for "Age 3" of AI research where in theory the AI should have a good enough research points base to research colonization techs in a timely fashion.

The .csf files are compiled script files for the AI. The source files are found in the Utililies directory along with the script parser that converts the AI's .txt files into .csf files for use by the game.

[Moriarty]

Thanks for the responses.

b) Well having added "misc colony" to my list I can safely say it doesn't seem to have affected the AI's game at all.

e) That's about when I try to research the colonisers myself - when I have sufficient RP to do it in a "timely fashion". Problem is, I invariably get there many many turns before the AI.

I think I'll go look into those csf files, thanks.


Anyhow, I decided to conduct a little "scientific test".
Balance mod 0.92 vs' SEV Stock.

I used the same gamesetup (including map) for both.
Map: Large Galaxy edge. Player starting positions manually placed so as to have four warp points connecting each. All had at least 3 empty systems between them and the next one.

High difficulty, high AI bonus. No neutral players.

30 turns. I just sat back and kept hitting F12. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Results:
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/4239/finun2.th.jpg (http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finun2.jpg)


As you can see, they were both practically identical planet count wise. For some reason the AI in BM love troops, but it does have a few more ships to show for its efforts too.
Standard seems to have done better on Research points and population.

Tech lvls, resources and score cannot really be directly compared due to the changes.


Oh and a bug. - you may note that I have 129 tech levels in standard - no idea why, i didn't research a thing. It started the game like that. Yet I don't actually have anything to show for it. Weird.

[Raapys]

Those are different empires in the two tests. They've got different abilities and advantages, etc. Try creating 3 custom empires with different advantages and use those 3 in both the tests at the same starting position, instead of just randomly selected empires.

While research is not comparable between stock and Kwok, Population, units, ships( and resources?) should be, if you use the same empires at the same starting positions for both tests. I believe there is a few random factors in there, though.

[Raapys]

I have the AI sending hordes of colony ships into my warp point defense that are defending what used to be one of his systems. Isn't there any way to prevent the 'No memory at all about what happened the last time I did this'-bevaiour? I suppose 'no fog of war' might do the trick as then the computer would know about those ships I have at the warp point, but shouldn't this be taken up with Aaron?

I noticed the same issue with my own ships; they were trying to fly to a warp point, but as they got close enough for the sensors to find out there was an enemy ship there, they went back one grid so that the enemy ship was out of sensor range again: being AI, there now appeared to be no threat at that warp point, so they changed back to the original course, only to discover that *somehow* the enemy ship was still there! They did this until they were out of movement points: one forward, one back.

Perhaps he could make the AI assume that the ships he met the last time were still there, and act accordingly? Same with planet ownership etc. I.e., he wouldn't actually try going through that warp point again until he felt he had a fleet that could destroy the ships/units I had there the last time he attacked.

[Zereth]

Raapys said:
I have the AI sending hordes of colony ships into my warp point defense that are defending what used to be one of his systems.


If only boarding parties weren't horribly broken you could steal tons of colony ships this way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Raapys]

Looks like empires with the Organic Technology trait needs a fix. They appear only to be using a single Plasma Charge weapon on all their Attack Ships. Since that weapon has 1 range, none of their ships actually reach me with weapons intact. Only seen frigates so far, so not sure how they set up the larger ships with organic technology.. But still, Plasma Charge needs to be seriously un-nerfed or the AI need to stop using it. It has basically ruined any chance they might have had in killing me: They really had a ton of ships.

At turn 110, none of the 9 AI Empires have researched more than Level 1 of Medium sized ships, aka Destroyers. Do they start researching sizes again later? Should be about time though.

I noticed a rather big AI problem when I logged into one of the empires. See attachment. That battle has been going on for...ever? Basically units that are too fast to be caught, but can't otherwise move away from the sector, so they're stuck in an endless battle with the other empire's ships.

Rioting now appears to be very rare. I noticed about 1 planet in two out of 9 empires.

[tmcc]

Zereth said:
If only boarding parties weren't horribly broken you could steal tons of colony ships this way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



What about Allegiance Subverters?

[Captain Kwok]

Ack. There was a typo reducing the effecting range of the Plasma Charge to 10 range, it actually has 50-70 range depending on tech level.

It depends on tech level and cost for research rate, but I think I'll through light cruisers into the "2nd age" of AI development. I think I stuck them at the beginning of the "3rd age".

There was a setting introduced in the 1.08 patch and that you could have combat run to the full-time if enemies were still present. I think I'll through that back to false.

[Raapys]

There was a setting introduced in the 1.08 patch and that you could have combat run to the full-time if enemies were still present.

I probably didn't express it the best way: I was talking about turns. They go through 20 seconds of that fight every single turn, the fighters just fly further and further away for each 'session', for probably 10+++ turns in a row now. A bug/oversight with the code I'd say. The fighters can't leave that sector because there's no ship to transport them away( they were all killed). Messy situation.

I.e. possible solution: Have the game destroy all fighters(and drones?) at end of combat if there's no friendly carriers left.

[Captain Kwok]

Not a bad suggestion - but disabling the afforementioned setting will at least save time for processing while the 'bug' exists.

[Suicide Junkie]

The same problem also occurs with non-combat ships.
You also end up with a stupidly large combat map.

I would like to see the option for a combat border. Prevent these infinite combat chases, and keep the map sane.
Steel Cage matches between fleets: no wussing out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Raapys]

Yah, but the non-combat ships have the option to move away from that grid sector. The AI is wasting like half his fleet on capturing those ever-fleeing ships and fighters though. It's also sort of silly that one can go to combat with someone at a warp point, 'flee' until the fight is over, then continue through the warp point in the system view.

The game mechanics definitely need *alot* of programming work before they're acceptable. And the AI needs fixing and adjusting to the new features like fog of war.

[Shadowstar]

Actually it would be interesting if ships would start to slow down after going a certain distance at full speed. Say thier engines start to lose charge and have to slow down to maintain power to the rest of the ship's systems. This would keep combat more or less contained without imposing unrealistic borders in space, and still allow for faster ships to retreat if they need to.

Though in retrospect, what might work better and simpler is to mod the ship sizes and component levels so that there is more variety in ship speeds during combat. It seems like just about every ship of the same vehicle size goes the same speed because everyone just maxes the engines out.

Another thing that would be interesting is if warp points could act like "instant escapes" in combat. Instead of fleeing into infinty, ships could make a bee-line for the warp point, but only if they already had orders to go through the warp point. Would add an interesting "blockade running" aspect to combat.

[Tim_Ward]

Okay, some notes/suggestions.

1) This is a great improvement. Again.

2) The Space Foreigner's setup files may some changing/optimising, or whichever one is the one where they decide what their heavy/primary weapons etc are for designs. A lot of them aren't building designs with anything other than DU cannons lvl 1 and armour lvl 1. Have you got the AIs researching more exotic weapons, but left some of them with the primary weapon as the DU cannons?

Or have I missed something?

3) Was it your intention to make level one destroyers actually less effective than level 3 frigates? With the increased space needed for another life support and crew quaters, and two extra engines (60kt) you actually have 10kt less effective space on a 350kt destroyer than you do on a 300kt frigate. If so, fair enough - but it might be an idea that the AI research to level 2 medium hulls at whatever age you've got the AIs currently researching the level 1 medium hull in.

4) Your changes to diplomacy work well. However, I'd be cool if they were a little more aggressive in declaring war.

5) AI should research sensors earlier. Level 1 combat sensors just don't cut it.

6) The AI builds ships with point defence on them, and even dedicated point defence ships. Which is cool. But, at least in the early game, unless they come across a human player that uses cap ship missles, the point defence cannons are wasted. How about the AI also uses a missle boat design, that lurks at the back hurling missiles while the attack ships get stuck in?

[Captain Kwok]

For low tech, the only weapons that are available are the DUC and CSMs, so that's why their use is prevalent with the AI. However, the AIs will use other weapons if available depending on their race, but they're just not getting to that point yet with a low tech start. You will notice though that AIs with racial traits will use their racial weapons etc. as they become available.

At the same time I'm building new infrastructure in the AI data files to support a new weapon distribution scheme. Currently the AI is setup to have a primary, heavy, and special weapons at various percentages. I've added a secondary category for flexibility. I'm also working out what weapons each of the major empires will use, particular the combinations for the races without a dedicated racial tech area. For example, I'll probably have the Terrans start out as DUC/CSM mix leading into an APB-Torp combo, complemented by specialized ships with WMGs and perhaps ionic dispersers or something.

-----

The PD ships are not built in too large a quantity and they do have some offensive capability as well and it's better to have a few rather than none as a preventative measure. I'll also be adding specialized Explorer/Surveyor ships in the next version - essentially unarmed ships with lots of supplies for peaceful races, and single-weapon armed ships with supplies for more aggressive empires.

-----

I'm currently organizing the research pathway to alleviate most of the noted problems with tardy research in important areas. The layout of the original file was not very good, particularly after the balance mod changes. I've actually got the file opened right now and I'm hoping for a v0.93 tomorrow with the changes.

-----

I did some work with the attack algorithm. I increased the attack chance for the more aggressive empires. One problem I still need to work out a solution for in the code is the fact that the AI will does not want to enter the attack state when there are still unexplored systems.

-----

Originally I had Destroyers coming in at level 2 of frigates (like the staggered arrangement for all larger ship sizes) but many said it was available too early - even though I personally thought it was good because each ship hull had its own qualities (and I still might change it back that way). I guess the redeeming feature of the current layout is that the destroyer can be retrofit to the larger size and more useful size.

[Tim_Ward]

Unfortunately, I lost my game to a crash so I can't give you concrete examples, but these AIs had destroyers and still only had level one armour and level one DU cannons. They were all ahead of my in terms of tech levels, yet I was producing far better designs. The only AI with anything else was the phong, who employed their racial tech.

For what it's worth, I agree with you about destroyers at level 2 frigates. Bigger ships give you more design options, which means more fun. There's very little you can do with frigates in balance mod, and the increased tech costs means you're stuck with them for a while.

[Shadowstar]

It seems AI's will research war technologies even when they are focusing on exploration/colonization, but won't actually build any war ships to take advantage of thier advances until they actually go into attack state -- even if they're being attacked. There should be something in the code that ensures that the AI's will start building up-to-date warships when they get attacked, if they aren't already.

How about letting the AI's go to attack state based on thier personality traits and whether they have explored systems belonging to a nearby empire that is relatively small and would be an easy target (based on available information). Obviously, peaceful AI's wouldn't attack at all unless they were being attacked but the agressive ones would naturally want to focus on weaker empires, and the really agressive ones would prioritize this over exploration at the earliest opportunity.

[Raapys]

Yah, there definitely needs to be some AI agression change. All 4 empires I've discovered just wants to make deals with me; I had to be the one to declear war. And when I reject the deal they offer they will spam me with different treaty proposals every one or two turns.

At turn 123, all the 9 empires, except those 4 who had crystalline/organic technology, were using Level 1 Armor, Shields, DUCs and Sensors. In other words, they're not doing so well in combat.

The Organic and Crystalline races on the other hand, were actually doing really well, one guy having level 8 Organic Weapons and level 10 Organic Armor.

So it appears empires wont actually research weapons and armor unless they've got Org/Cryst technology, and even then they're still not researching sensors and shields.

[Captain Kwok]

Don't worry, research will be fixed soon. Just a minor issue with the arrangement of techs. The new file I'm building and hope to be finished today will be a lot better.

For AI aggression, it depends on what races you encounter as well. Certain races like the Abbidon, EEE, Phong are friendly and peaceful and less likely to attack. Others like the Jraenar, Sithrak, Xiati, Xi'Chung are in theory more aggressive - but I will make some more tweaks though so they are more aggressive and get angry over your ships and planets more. That should help with them declaring war.

Has anyone seen the AI proposing treaties with dentrimental conditions? What about stellar manipulation conditions? I made a quick change so that they should only propose those later on when they have the tech.

[Shadowstar]

It might be cool to have the agressive empires differ in outrightly declaring war and alternatively making tribute demands and subjugation-style treaty proposals. This would give them more variety. You'd have some who just want to wipe you out of existence, while others who would rather dominate you through sheer power. On this vein, you could have genocidal empires who seek to destroy a specific race, irregardless of any specific empire. Every planet that contains that race would be a target, regardless of who owns it, unless its one of thier planets (in which case it would be something akin to a concentration camp). Another empire might want a specific race as a member and would pursue conquest or treaty options to that end. Not sure how much of that is possible in the AI files, but it would be a very interesting way to give the empires personality.

[AAshbery76]

War hungry A.I's make it an easy game for the Human.Civ4 and Galciv2 have A.I's that don't go to war until they have enough power,and they try to make it a 1 vs 1 war.

The human player can declare war anytime he wants.I say no to war hungry A.I's.

[AngleWyrm]

If you would like the ai to declare war immediately, then just start a game on hard difficulty.

[fdlu]

Possible bug ??
Sorry, just got the game and not time to really play, just a little testing.

Point defence cannons to hit modifier.

Ver.: 0.91 (may be not exact but you get the idea)
range 0=&gt; modifier 20, range 50=&gt; mod.0, range 90=&gt;mod. -40

Ver.: 0.92
range 0=&gt;mod.0, range 5=&gt;mod.20, range 90=&gt;mod. 50

It seems that in Ver. 0.91 the chance to hit a seeker/fighter is at first(long range) pretty bad and gets better in the last seconds, which I would expect of a close in defense system.
In Ver. 0.92 it seems the pd will hit heavy at long range and miss pretty much in the last defense stages, which seems odd.

Otherwise it seems to be a very nice mod. I will enjoy the game as I get some free time in November.

[Captain Kwok]

Woops. I forgot to make a negative number when I removed the positive modifier.

[Raapys]

If you would like the ai to declare war immediately, then just start a game on hard difficulty.

I play on hard with medium AI bonus, yet still all 5 empires I've met spam me with treaty proposals until I accept, so I doubt that'll be much use.

[Shadowstar]

Well, not every AI empire needs to declare war right away. It's just one variation of the agressive persona. You'd expect a race with lots of early combat advantages to do it. They'd start building warships on the first encounter with another race and strike when they were more militarily powerful than that empire. Later wars would only break out after a considerable amount of buildup, and in those cases then you could have global-themed wars like genocides and such, that span the entire map, rather than one neighbor trying to take out the other.

[Captain Kwok]

I've re-ordered the tech list for research, but unfortunately I'm having trouble getting the weapon tech areas as defined in each race's main file to come up on the research list. That's why the racial AIs are the only ones plowing ahead in weapons research since there tech area is called in the pooled AI research file...

Hopefully I can get some more info as to what is going on so I can fix it and get the next version out.

[AngleWyrm]

I only have stock to go on, but here's what I see from it:

In AI_Research.txt-&gt;Add_Wanted_Tech_Areas_For_Designs(), called from [race]_Main_Script.txt-&gt;Main,

it looks like this test always true:
"if (add_all) or (not item_added) then"
because add_all is always FALSE and item_added is always FALSE

[Raapys]

At turn 140'ish(with 0.92), none of the empires have actually deployed satellites at warp points. Looks like most, if not all, have a couple of Satellite Deployer designated ships, but they appear to be unused.

Also, it appears the AI barely build any satellites in the first place. A couple of planets in their entire empire might have a satellite group of 4-5 satellites, that's it. On the other hand, they appear to build dozens of fighters, yet never appear to put them in a carrier, so they're just planetary defense. In fact, none of the AI's appear to have 'Carriers' at all?

The AI also has tons of troops on just about all his planets. He also has Troop Transports. I'm unsure if he actually use troops in attacks, though?

I also noticed a few cases where the AI was trying to retrofit ships with cargo. Obviously that didn't work, and I'm guessing he's gonna keep trying until the end of time.

[Captain Kwok]

I suspect the reason that satellite layers are not picking up sats anymore is because I made planets launch all their sats rather than keeping 50% in cargo meaning that there is probably no stock for the sat layers to grab and distribute. I can tweak the priorities for satellites though to get a few more constructed.

You're not seeing any carriers for the simple reason, none of the AIs are reaching fighter 2 tech, which would give them the carrier hull. It should be fixed in v0.93. At least I remembered to keep 50% of fighters in storage on the planet for use in ground combat or for carrier pick-up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I have seen the AI send out a troop transport with troops on it to join a fleet but I'm not sure if it will follow a capture planet strategy. I'll have to investigate this and maybe edit some strategies to ensure ships break formation - I can just see it now with the cargo and repair ships in fleets being the leaders and the AI fleets fleeing in combat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

The retrofit with cargo bug is an SE:V issue. Although I think I need to tweak done the priority for colony ships. In all my test games, the AI has more colony ships than planets to colonize. Even worse is that it will send all the available ones to the same planet (SE:V bug again, but at least fixable in the scripts) and so on.

[Raapys]

I'd suggest a big increase in Satellite building and prevent planets from launching more than just a few; fighters are way better planetary defense than stationary satellites, while satellites are ideal for warp points. With 30'ish satellites at each border warp point, the AI can keep his territory very safe for just 1k'ish mainatenance cost per border.

I'll keep an eye out for 'invading AIs'. I suspect the whole 'land troops' action is beyond the reach of the current AI, though.

[Captain Kwok]

I don't think so. I think if the same conditions are met as in SE:IV, the troop transport will land its troops. Now the bigger problem will be if the troop transport is unarmed will it run away first until the planet defenses have been destroyed first and then return? Is SE:V different in what it considers a "defenseless" planet and is there some bug like WPs not being damaged from space? If I give the transport a weapon will it follow the capture planet strategy and launch a drop pod? That'll we'll have to watch for.

[Raapys]

Looking at the 'Capture Planet' strategy, it appears to be exactly like the Optimal Firing Range strategy just with the 'Capture planet' setting at TRUE. In other words, it's likely to behave just like the regular ships...? I'll try an invasion myself and see how it acts in combat.

[Captain Kwok]

Although if the ship doesn't have offensive weapons than it will flee first and then return once the danger has been neutralized. I suppose I will have to make sure that fleets break their formation and follow their own strategies once combat begins - this plus a single weapon on the troop transport will probably be the most effective way for the AI to drop troops off.

[Raapys]

Okay, here's the invasion report.

I created a Troop Transport ship, Large Freighter, no weapons, 1 space yard component and lots of cargo space. Capture planet strategy.

I then made an Invasion fleet, two task forces. In one task force was my 10 attack ships, in the other was the Troop Transport ship with 31'ish troops. Both task forces had the 'capture planet' strategy.

Sent them to the planet, watched while the computer did all the fighting. As soon as the fight started the troop ship went straight for the planet alongside my attack ships. The planet started firing back and my ships fired at the planet.

It appears that WPs do get damaged, but either they are *very* hard to hit, or they do not get damaged until nearly all of the facilities have been destroyed. In other words, WPs aren't killed until you've nearly wiped out the entire planet.

Anyway, my troop transport eventually reached the planet and flew 'above' it. I got a message saying my troops had been deployed and ground combat would start next turn. At that point all my ships stopped firing at the planet( the WPs were still firing at me) and started to retreat/ go out of firing range. Then the combat ended.

Pressed end turn, ground combat started after AI's were finished. What I noticed here was that my troops went straight for the enemy weapon platforms; even though there were enemy troops firing at me. Had there been a few more enemy troops all my troops would have been killed while spending minutes killing those WPs( which were harmless to my troops) if I hadn't done something.

Anyway, I killed the enemy troops, took out about 3 of 7 WPs, then ran out of ordinance O_O

Noticed that my troops had 'Optimal firing range' as strategy by default. I'm guessing that strategy prioritize WPs over troops? In that case, perhaps a new 'troop' strategy should be made and used as default by ground troops? One that makes them first target other troops, then WPs.

*Edit*

I noticed some variation in the space battle above the planet as I did it a few more times. 4 out of 5 times the whole thing will work out like it should. However, a few times the attacking ships from the other task force will *not* retreat after the troops have been deployed. However, they *will* stop firing, but the WPs do not. In other words, they just stand around the planet getting destroyed by the planet's WPs without returning fire or retreating, even after the troops have been deployed.

[tmcc]

As I mentioned in a previous post WPs are one of the three units set to be active in ground combat, however none of the ground combat capable weapons can be mounted on WPs using the stock data files. Very easy fix though.

[TNZ]

Just an idea but could the Planet Utilization tech-area be rearranged in this order:
Climate Control Facility, Atmospheric Modification Plant and then Value Improvement Plant?

Also can anything be done about fighters and drones losing all but one movement point after being launched from the system screen?
/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_NewZeland.gif

[Shadowstar]

I noticed that if you change the design names file, the autocomplete feature of the ship builder won't work properly (for instance, telling it to build a colonizer causes it to build a ship without a colony module). At least, I think its the design names file that's causing it. Do you suppose that could also affect how the AI builds ships?

Or am I the only one having this problem?

I also noticed loading a saved empire in new game causes the empire's tech levels to all be set to 0. You can set them in the empire edit, but everything starts at 0. Then, when the game starts, you get all the normal starting techs, in addition to the ones you chose in the empire editor, but because of the bug you can end up paying tech points for techs that are supposed to be starting techs. This won't happen if you create a new empire in the new game screen, only if you load an existing one. I don't know if that's stock SEV or balance mod, but I suspect its stock SEV.

I also noticed that I ended up starting with all of the plague bombs available, but I did not allocate any starting research into biological weapons, nor did I have levels in it when the game started (didnt even have the requisite for bio weapons). But I could build ships with the weapons. Not sure how much of that is Stock related either, and I have a suspicion it may be related to the above issue.

If all of these issues are not Balance-mod related, then sorry for posting here, but I wasn't sure, and I noticed them when using Balance mod. I'd test them out in stock to see for sure but won't have time for a few days, so I figured I'd post them while they were still fresh in my mind.

[Kana]

Speaking of design names...there is no Satellite Layer on the list...might be helpful...Also does the AI use these design names to determine the type of ship to build, and what goes on the ship, from the AI ship design file?

[Captain Kwok]

The AI has reciprocal entries for all the design type names in the Balance Mod and I guess even a few more for stellar manipulation and satellite layer (of which I should probably add so players can use autocomplete for it).

You need to pick a "valid" ship size or type for autocomplete to work properly really. For example, pick a fighter hull for a fighter design. For ships, the Balance Mod prefers the use of transports for most non-combat ships or colony ships for colonizers etc.

-----

The plague bomb issue is just being caused by a minor typo, it's been fixed in the upcoming version.

-----

The drop all levels to 0 for empire files is a known SE:V bug.

-----

I'm not sure if WPs should be functional in Ground Combat...

-----

Fighters and Drones only get 1 movement point after launch on the system screen because there are no limits to launch/recover of units during game turns. It would be unbalancing otherwise.

[tmcc]

Regarding WPs for ground combat, IMHO I think one should be able to build some type of ground based installation to aid the troops in defending the planet. The problem as I see it now is that even a lvl 1 small weapons platform is 200Kt. Load this with armor, shields and a bunch of small DUCs and it will be a very tough nut to crack. Just a few of those on a planet would dramatically change the balance of ground combat.

[Captain Kwok]

I had considered the creation of "ground turrets" for the SE:V version of my Space Food Empires thing - they would be between ~20-40kT and use the same small weapons as fighters/troops. But for a stock-like mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[tmcc]

Another quick and dirty solution is to allow satellites to be active for ground combat and allow mounting ground capable weapons. Just a couple of quick adjusts to the data files.

[Captain Kwok]

If I do add another element to ground combat it would use the small weapons. I might throw in a mount for the weapons if its another unit type - but I don't want to edit any of the main ship weapons to have ground damage fields.

-----

I'm still waiting on Aaron to get back to me on some research pathing/priorties questions I had. I hope to hear from him today so I can go ahead and finish off v0.93, if not I'll probably still release the update for the bug fixes but the regular AIs will probably be lax on directed weapon research.

[Suicide Junkie]

It seems to me that it is only fair that platform weapons which can shoot fighters in space should also be able to shoot them on the ground.

Targetting troops is another matter entirely.

[tmcc]

Brings up another question though, is line of sight functional in ground combat and are facilities capable of being damaged by friendly fire? I assume if you start firing heavy weapons in the city somebody is going get hurt.

[Dizzy]

Well, major difference for shooting ftrs on the ground and in space. In space, you can stream your bullets all over trying for a hit on an evasive group of ftrs. You try that on the ground and you're looking at considerable collateral damage.

That says to me that if the defsats dont catch the ftrs in space, then it's up to the ground installations and defenses that shoot skyward to finish the job. Personally, I wouldnt want my space weapons coming down on me out of the heavens trying to hit an attacking ftr... I'd take my chances with my shoulder mounted rocket or find a nice ditch to hide in...

[Raapys]

About the AI research Kwok, isn't it just a matter of, for instance, changing

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>call lst_Armor_Wanted_Tech_Level.add(1)</pre><hr />
into
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>call lst_Armor_Wanted_Tech_Level.add(10)</pre><hr />
in the Empire Main scripts to get the AI to research better standard armor?

Then doing the same with the normal weapons, i.e. Depleted Uranium Cannon, Proton Beam, etc. for those that doesn't have Cryst/Organic traits?

How does it work in relation to the Set_Age research calls and the general research files?

[Caduceus]

Kana said:
there is no Satellite Layer on the list...might be helpful...



I emailed this to Malfaydor - but you can echo my sentiment.

[Captain Kwok]

The armor and stuff of that sort is already prioritized and I can add weapons to the general pool, however since the races use different weapon techs for mid to late game, they would lose research efficiency by researching weapons they wouldn't use. I'll probably throw in DUCs and CSMs for now though as a temporary measure until it's fixed properly.

[Zereth]

Suicide Junkie said:
It seems to me that it is only fair that platform weapons which can shoot fighters in space should also be able to shoot them on the ground.

Targetting troops is another matter entirely.


Perhaps make PD weapons able to target fighters in ground combat as well. Possibly at reduced effectiveness so they don't kill the buildings as well.

[Captain Kwok]

Zereth said:
Perhaps make PD weapons able to target fighters in ground combat as well. Possibly at reduced effectiveness so they don't kill the buildings as well.

That sounds like a good compromise.

[aegisx]

Kwok,

Any idea when you'll release the AI scripts?

[Captain Kwok]

Yes. I plan on posting the scripts once the research scheme is setup. Probably on Monday or something like that.

I have been trying to add in some documentation on the changes I made in each file to help others figure out what was changed/added.

[Uncle_Joe]

Is Monday your projected time for .93 or for posting the scripts?

Would you mind posting what you have for .93 or is it in a non-workable state? I have a friend who I played quite a bit of SE4 with asking about SE5 and I'd like to try and test it with the latest and greatest Balance Mod before I try and give him an opinion. I've had the game for a week but havent even installed it yet as I've been more or less waiting for it to get to a more 'complete' state, especially with regards to the AI.

Thanks for your efforts either which way though!

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

Joe, good timing for your question! I was actually just uploading the next version when you posted. You might as well install the game though - there's a lot of players who don't have much trouble with bugs and you can gain some experience with the UI etc. even if the AI isn't great yet.

I've just posted the next version for download:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Version 0.93 (27 October 2006)
------------------------------

1. Fixed - Plague Bombs were not following their tech requirements
2. Fixed - Point-Defense Weapons accuracy at range values were accidently reversed
3. Changed - Drones can now be recovered
4. Changed - Added back Recover - Unit abilities for launch components
5. Added - Satellite Layer design type
6. Changed - Reduced Recreation Services cultural achievement to 5 levels
7. Changed - Cargo Facilities now include additional supply and ordnance storage
8. Changed - Increase remote cargo distribution for Resupply Depots
9. Changed - Point-Defense Weapons now do ground damage
10. Changed - Tweaked AI ship designs
11. Updated - AI research pathing
12. Updated - AI Scripts</pre><hr />

I'm going to take some time this weekend to play a few competitive games with the AI and see how it performs. Let me know how your games go.

[Raapys]

Neat! Did you fix that organic weapon by the way? I'll try a new game now.

Can't remember if this was there before, but each flag and ship style come up twice in the empire creation flag/style selection.

[Captain Kwok]

The duplicate flags etc. is an SE:V bug.

I fixed the plague bug thing - but I'm not sure if it will be fixed for previously saved games.

Note the AI will now research most of the main weapon groups as I throw them in the global research pool. It should at least help most of them.

[Shadowstar]

Would it be possible to assign certain weapon paths to specific AI personas? This way, you don't have to have every AI researching weapons they won't use, and you can have some that prefer certain types of weapons (energy pulse as opposed to projectiles), and can specialize in them.

[Raapys]

Not the plague thingy, I meant that Acid organic weapon thingy that had its range accidently set to 10-20.

[Captain Kwok]

Yes, I did fix the Plasma Charge although I neglected to add it to the changelog.

Shadowstar, that is how it is suppose to be setup. Each empire's main script contains references for that AI to use specific weapons and to research those ones only. However it's not quite working right now so I temporarily added a bunch of common weapon techs to the global research list to at least make the regular AIs (non-racial ones) a bit more competitive.

[Shadowstar]

Ah, I see. So its a workaround for a bug then. That makes sense.

[Q]

I am very impressed and pleased by your mod.
The AI is much better than in the stock game and the short game I made so far is very interesting.
Excellent work!

[Uncle_Joe]

Thanks a lot for posting it. Its downloaded and installed, but I have to wait until tomorrow to give it a test spin.

I'm trying to read through manual before turning in for the night, but yeesh, that thing is hard to read!

Thanks again for your work on this!

[Raapys]

Unsure if this is because of the mod or a stock issue, but my Space Yard Ships all get 4,900 construction rate. That's with a Level 1 Space Yard( 1,000 construciton rate) and the +10% and +25% construction rate traits. How that sums up to 4,900 is beyond me.

Someone mentioned the 25% trait was being applied twice, but even that doesn't get me close to 4,900, so I'm not sure where the error is here. And is the +25% trait supposed to work with Space Yard Ships/Bases at any rate? I seem to remember it says 'Planetary Space Yard' rate.

[AngleWyrm]

4900 could be (2000 x 2) + (2000 x 45%)
45% could be 25% + (2 x 10%)

So maybe what's happening is:
2 x ( (1000 x 2 x 110%) + (1000 x 25%) )

[Raapys]

Hmm, where are you getting those numbers from?

The exact construction rate is currently 4913. Base construction rate of the mobile Space Yard is 1,000 at Level 1( it's 2000 for level 1 planetary construction yards ), which is what I have. 1,000 + 10% + 25% +25% (assuming 25% was being applied twice) sums up to 1600 total. Where's the 3313 remaining points coming from?

[AngleWyrm]

I got those numbers from your post immediately above, which states a 4900 construction rate, a 10% bonus and a 25% bonus. As far as your new 4913 rate, you probably have a racial or planetary morale bonus.

[Raapys]

Sorry Angle, I expressed myself poorly.

I have a Medium Freighter with a single Level 1 Space Yard component on it. That Space Yard component states that it constructs with 1,000 Minerals, Organics and Radioactives each turn. My race has a 10% and 25% construction bonus, which should put that Space Yard construction rate up to 1,600. There are no other listed modifiers. Yet when I enter the construction screen for that ship it says its construction rate is 4,913.

The AI is still not using Satellites effectively, Kwok. They don't really build many, either. They have like 5-10 times as many fighters as sats. How about at least tripling Satellite construction( perhaps lowering fighter production) and have them put all of them at warp points?

[Captain Kwok]

I don't know exactly how it is being applied and it was Aaron who stated it was being applied more than once in the changelog. Regardless it's an SE:V bug.

[Shadowstar]

I noticed something odd in my current game. It seems that every design I create gets duplicated one turn after I create it. Anyone else notice this?

This didn't happen with stock games before, so I'm assuming its balance-mod related.

[Suicide Junkie]

That was a problem in multiplayer games earlier...
Do you have the v1.08 patch for SE5?

[Captain Kwok]

Oops. One of the little changes I made in v0.93 has stopped the AI from adding a PD cannon on its early attack frigates. It will still make the PD ships fine and everything else - but I'll need to fix it eh?

[Shadowstar]

Yes, I patched it to 1.08 right after 1.08 came out. Plus this isn't a multiplayer game, it's a single player "same machine" with simultaneous movement. It's using an empire file from a previous game, but even so, the empire file was created with 1.08 too, so that shouldn't be the problem.

The only things that are different from Balance Mod defaults are that I changed the designnames.txt file a bit to my own tastes, plus the colonytypes.txt and added some starnames to the stock systemnames.txt file. I kept the originals, so I can revert in a pinch if necessary but I can't imagine those files are the problem.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Here are some updated AI files for v0.93 that fix the PD problem I caused:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/Empires.zip

Just extract to your balance mod folder!

-----

Shadowstar - sounds like an SE:V error to me! It had happened a while back in the beta but I hadn't seen it for a bit.

[Shadowstar]

Hmm, I'm curious as to what is causing it. If its only affecting me, then it indicates that I did something at some point to cause it. Well if I come across anything that helps nail it down, I'll post it here. If nothing else it should be interesting, and maybe it'll get to MM and get fixed in the next patch.

[Caduceus]

I am getting the following error message - attached.

[Captain Kwok]

Delete the soundeffects.txt file from the data folder.

[aegisx]

Kwok,

I noticed my AutoCompletes don't work right anymore, it puts on too many engines, no weapons etc. Do you know what that is configured? It is only for my custom empire.

[aegisx]

nm, its probably because I didn't compile with your scripts yet.

[Captain Kwok]

aegisx said:nm, its probably because I didn't compile with your scripts yet.

That would be the likely culprit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[aegisx]

ANy chance of a research tutorial? It sets up techs to research in a number of places. It is also confusing wether the order changes, since the ones off of the main script run every turn, whereas the setup ones run only once?

[aegisx]

How did you get rid of the garbage treaties? In my custom AI, I do:

call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_SHARE_TECHNOLOGY)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_SHARE_DESIGNS)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_RESEARCH)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_USE_VIRAL_WEAPONS)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_BOMBARD_PLANETS)

call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_SHARE_TECHNOLOGY)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_SHARE_DESIGNS)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_RESEARCH)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_USE_VIRAL_WEAPONS)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_BOMBARD_PLANETS)


after the political functions, but it does not work.

[aegisx]

Also of note, the Propose_Elemtents function in AI_Politics seems a bit off to me. It does not seem to take anger of the element into consideration before it adds it to the element array.

I changed the anger on the bad elements to -10000 and it didn't make a difference, I added (this_anger &gt; -10) to the if statement in the function and it works out fine.

[Captain Kwok]

I've seen some good behaviour with the AI in my test game. They are using all the transport types including carriers with fighters, troop transports with troops - both types in fleets - and also sat layers with sats.

Unfortunately they still suffer from a bit of let down in expansion after 10-15 colonies.

-----

Aegisx - I commented out the negative elements until I could figure out the exact calculations being used. There appears to be several functions that work out the treaty elements.

[Caduceus]

Captain Kwok said:
Delete the soundeffects.txt file from the data folder.



There wasn't one. I cut and pasted the one from stock.

Still not working. Any more ideas?

[Captain Kwok]

My accidental inclusion of Tampa_Gamer's soundeffects file in v0.91 or so was the only cause for that error I have seen.

Just try it without any soundeffects.txt file in the mod's data folder. Also make sure you have a soundeffects.txt in your stock data folder - I tend to move rather than copy files when I do this sort of thing.

[Caduceus]

Well, I am not sure how I fixed it.

A.) I had a "nested" Balance Mod in the Balance Mod folder which I deleted.

B.) I deleted the soundeffects.txt file that I had copied from stock into the Balance Mod folder.

[Raapys]

Issues with 0.93 that I can see at turn 150 with the AI empires( a few of them might be general game issues):

1. They still don't research ship sizes enough. At 150 the best they have is Light Cruiser; some not even that.

2. There's a problem with the AI researching both Energy Stream, Energy Pulse *and* Projectile weapons. Since these weapons all fall into the same 'primary weapon' category it seems a huge waste of RP.

3. An Attack Ship design had a Medical Bay on it.

4. The AI's will build (few) satellites and satellite layers, and even take the satellites into the satellite layers, but they will *not* use them to guard warp points, and they also don't appear to use fighters for that. All warp points are left unprotected in all but a few rare cases where the AI keeps ships there, sometimes a tiny fighter squadron.

5. One AI empire that I checked had explored 10 systems, but left 2 of them only half-way explored even though he had colonies in them. However, the problem is that these 2 systems are the only ones leading to the 'outside', but the AI don't know about any warp points in them so he's actually been without contact with other empires for 150 turns and is not expanding, exploring or even trying to.

6. The AI wont vote for Alliance proposals, making alliances practically useless. A 1.08 bug?

7. Most of the AI's systems are almost completely void of ships: The ships appears to be concentrated in 1-3 Fleets containing tons of ships, sometimes all in the same system, and 1-2 planets with a heavy concentration. The AI usually have a dozen systems, even border systems, without more than 2-3 ships in them.

8. The AI likes to research Torpedoes far too much. Level 10 torpedo technology as opposed to nothing else above level 8. Most of them aren't even using the torpedoes.

9. The AI tries to colonize planets which are prohibted for him to colonize by treaties.

10. The AI tries to move population to planets that are already full.

11. There are no 'ruins'?

Think that's about it for now.

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks Raapys for the report.

1-2: As I mentioned before I had to throw in the weapon techs in the general file because they weren't being picked up in the individual Empire scripts. So (2) is a partial cause of (1) because they are wasting points on stuff they are not using. I'm hoping to resolve this issue shortly.

3: A Medical Bay is one of the extra components to be added - if other more wanted components are not available yet, it gets to this one and adds it if a ship is big enough. Anyways it will restricted to Medical Ships in the future.

4: That was a SE:V bug - it was *resolved* in beta v1.10

5: There was a survey bug that was also *resolved* in v1.10 - this should lead to the WPs being uncovered sooner.

6: Bug yes.

7: I have fleets set to use 90-95% of the available ships - but I can tweak this or perhaps increase the number of fleets.

8: See 1-2

9-10: There's no checks in place for either item. You can also include the AI sending multiple colony ships to the same planet in this category. I'm working on a solution but haven't quite figured out to see if another ship is enroute to the planet when a AI colony ship chooses a destination.

11: Ruins are lost on turn 1 - it's a known SE:V bug.

[Raapys]

Alright, starting to sound good then.

I've got one big concern, though; everyone wanted to be friends with me, so I figured I had to declear a couple of wars myself to get any fighting done. So I do: 50 turns later I am still waiting for an attack, even though I have borders to one of my enemies( the #1 on the score list) and the other one is only a system apart from me.

So, is it just me or does the AI appear to be harmless? I'm thinking I could probably go through hundreds of turns without ever actually needing a warship; the AI doesn't appear to be in the least bit interested in destroying my colonies and fleets.

[aegisx]

luckly all the pieces are there so we can make the AI 'not harmless' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I don't know. I've had run-ins with the Drushocka and Xi'Chung were they have proactively attacked me and any weakly colonies. In fact, the Drushocka sent a fleet with a troop transport to one of my planets - but my lone protecting ship was able to damage the weapons of the fleet leader and the fleet retreated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

From now on the default strategies for the AI will include break formation!

[Q]

Two observations:
1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!
2.) The main empires are too friendly. With the exception of a neutral empire I have a treaty with all other empires. I think there should be some full empires who hardly ever agree to a treaty.

[MisterBenn]

I have a little feedback too - I am playing with a custom Crystalline race on 0.93/1.08, Hard AI and Low AI Bonus.

I've played enough turns to research Crystallurgy 2, Crystaline weapons 1. I have just got Light Hull Construction 3 and am beginning on Medium-Light 1.

It seems that my home system borders that of the Jraenar(sp?) chaps - and they wasted no time whatsoever in going on the assault! They sent me all sorts of messages laying claim to my system, and while I was at the point of researching Crystallurgy 2, their first fleet turned up.

This fleet had 10 frigates, with a mix of 3 designs containing DUC 2s, a Point Defence and a few Armour 1s. That early it game me quite a headache! They killed 3 fledgling colonies of mine as I pecked away at them with a handful of my defensive frigates. He also sent a couple of groups of 2 or 3 colony ships in while this was going on, and took a Rock planet close to my homeworld (I am Gas Giant).

I weathered the storm, and was able to repel this fleet and invade his outpost in my system with troops. All other races are fairly friendly to me, and I have treaties including a Mutual Defence Pact with 2 other races, who both refused to "Provide Military Assistance in Sector" when I asked... one because they'd suffered recent losses themselves, and the second race because they objected to me fighting with the Jraenar!

Things are looking a little better since then. My tech is improving, I gathered a main fleet of maybe 8 Shard Cannon Frigates, and a seperate task force of 5 frigates with dual Crystal Torpedos to hang back and fire at max range. This is working a treat! I pushed them back to their system and have seen what I imagine is their homeworld.

I see how they fielded an early fleet now! They've put the Construction Yard Component straight to use in four seperate Starbases around this planet. The planet was also defended by about 50 fighters and 10 or 12 frigates.

It's been great fun so far! My observations:

1) Seeing the Jraenar be aggressive, and gear up his planets for churning fleets out fast is pleasing AI to see. A lot of races are excessively friendly, but if someone does go to war they don't mess about!

2) He's definitely committing a good 90% of his attack ships into a single fleet. There has been the occasional lone frigate or two buzzing around my system in addition to the main fleet. This was problematic for me in the early game but I imagine the changes planned to have them maintain more than one fleet would be better suited as the game progresses.

3) I had some trouble with attacking the Jraenar homeworld. I played a little SE4, and this is my first proper session of SE5 so it could easily be my fault! My fleet had task forces of:

TF1 - ~10 Shard Cannon frigates on Close Weapons Range
TF2 - ~7 Crystalline Torpedo frigates on Maximum Weapon Range
TF3 - A transport loaded with troops, on Capture Planet strategy
TF4 - A recon ship and a Supply/Ordnance tanker (thank you Balance Mod!) on Don't Get Hurt.

I sent this at his planet with the 4 space yard bases / fighters / multi frigate defence. My offensive task forces retreated away from the planet, and the only ship that approached the planet was the Troop Carrier, which was promptly cut to shreds by the enemy fighters and frigates, then combat ended. What do I have set wrongly? The task force orders seem sensible enough but the results were a disaster! I'd appreciate some pointers on what fleet orders or controls will permit me a more credible attack!!!

4) I also saw that in some small battles with myself having a fleet with single task force of maybe 4 frigates, that during attacking my fleet would retreat when one member of the group started to be heavily damaged. All other members were functional, and everyone had supplies and ordnance. Attempting to hit controls to break formation or to attack the remaining enemies made no difference! I had to wait for combat to end, split the damaged craft away from the fleet, and then attack again to complete the job. What am I doing wrong here?

5) The only crash I had was while running a combat in Strategic mode - I set x8 speed, and I CTD'd when hitting Close once it was complete.

6) It's been a lot of fun! This changes made so far in Balance really go a long way. The ability to make Ordnance Storage and Supply Storage ships is essential, the fact that the AI can organise a reasonable attack has kept me on my toes, and I am loving the new SE5 Tactical Combat engine! I also prefer the approach to research in Balance, to help the AI avoiding retrofit madness, and also for my own purposes.

Please keep up the good work! I can't wait to get stuck back in to my game and take my revenge on the Jraenar with some shiny new crystal armoured destroyers!

P.S. I know that there's been some complaining about the original release of SE5 being a bit incomplete. Clearly things are already taking shape, the game is definitely playable to me now and I can see from the fix lists that things are going to continue to improve in the near future! I really think it's safe to relax since the remaining bugs and interface oddities will clearly get progressively squished, and the amazing potential of this game will come about!

[Q]

Just one more impression:
I conquered a full homeworld (4000M population and three weapon platforms) with only 40 small troops. This seems not very balanced to me. I would recommend, that you increase the militia per population.

[Raapys]

I don't know. I've had run-ins with the Drushocka and Xi'Chung were they have proactively attacked me and any weakly colonies.

That only seems to happen if you live right next to the enemy or in the same system, though. If there's 1-2 systems or more seperating you you can basically be sure the AI wont attack( except sometimes early in the game, never in late game), from my experience. I'll try a few comp vs. human at maximum AI bonus and see how it turns out.

1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!

At which turn did you notice this? At turn 150 none of the 6 AI empires have put out any mines in my current game.

2.) The main empires are too friendly.

Definitely. 5-6 of them should be made war-like, very hard to make treaties with. Perhaps even do an Imperium Galactica twist and have a couple of races who *can't* make peace? Would make the whole universe a little more busy and interesting.

[Q]

"1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!

At which turn did you notice this? At turn 150 none of the 6 AI empires have put out any mines in my current game."

About turn 40.

PS: I switched all players to human control to check this. Two empires were using mines in the sectors of some of their colonies: the Xiati and to a lesser extent the Abbidon.

[Captain Kwok]

Q said:
Just one more impression:
I conquered a full homeworld (4000M population and three weapon platforms) with only 40 small troops. This seems not very balanced to me. I would recommend, that you increase the militia per population.

That's odd though. If you check settings.txt the militia should provide at least 80 troops in addition to whatever defenses are there. Was the case?

[Q]

Definitely not. I think there were some 10-20 militia.
Yes, according to your data there should have been much more militias.
Unfortunately I already continued with the game so I can't go back and verify it again. But you should check if the number of militia is not bugged.