KingMaker - let the Ascension War commence!

[Xietor]

Foodstamp, normally id laugh. But it has been a long day.:)

Thanks for playing btw. And thanks for hunting your own sub. Helheim is a super good position. Someone should pounce on it!

[Xietor]

K is having issues getting the map from mediafire. I spent about an hour trying to email him the zip file. I could not attach it to the forum because it exceeds the size limit(:

Emailing it did not go well because of the size. If someone knows a more user friendly place to download the map then mediafire maybe they can post a link.


Here is a new mediafire link. I had issues with llamabeasts as well for some reason:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9ghvty99nsy

[AdmiralZhao]

Wow, the Council doesn't read the forums for 24 hours and we miss 50 messages by Ruin. While the messages are of course lies from start to finish, they still take a while to wade through, and the Council is never going to catch up with the situation at this rate. In order to cut off the spam at its source, LA Marignon proposes a new Arena prize: The first nation to take the capital of LA Arco, and destroy the enormous printing presses there, will receive 200 gems from LA Marignon.

[Xietor]

Mediafire seems to be having issues.

Can anyone post a link to the map file that K and other subs can download? I am afraid I have spent my time allotment on Formoria with several hours yesterday and last night.

I have no more time to deal with the map issue. So I would be grateful if someone could assist K in getting the map file. And I guess whoever takes over helheim will have the same problem unless it is a former player.

Thanks in advance.

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

Try rapidshare.com I have both kingmaker-wrap.rgb and kingmaker-wrap2.rgb, I guess we are using the 2nd one?

[Xietor]

Thanks Zeldor. I will give it a try.

We are using kingmakerwrap2. If you have another map, you may want to delete it. That may be why you are having battle replay report issues.

kingmakerwrap2 is the only kingmaker rgb file i have in my map folder.

Like everyone else, i do not have the map file. Llamabeast put the final touches on the map and i downloaded the final rgb file like everyone else.

But you do not need the map file to play in the game just the rgb file.

http://rapidshare.com/files/154581783/kingmaker_wrap2.zip.html try this

[Xietor]

Hadrian has agreed to take over as admin. of Kingmaker.:):):)

Thank you Hadrian!

[K]

I have the map now. Thanks everyone.

[Hadrian_II]

Hadrian has agreed to take over as admin. of Kingmaker.:):):)

Thank you Hadrian!

I will try to read this thread, but please send me all requests as a pm, so that i will get them for sure.

[Darkwind]

So many lies in such a small area. Where do I start?LA Arcos is a small peaceful nation who was brutally and without provocation attacked, 1st by ulm, then by Bandar Log and LA Marignon.True, but yuou forget the part where you declared war on Utgard too.Ulm attacked Ruin while he was still at war with LA Tien Chi, then Bandar Log and La marignon piled on while LA Arcos sought to punish Ulm for its ruthless assault.LA T'ien was almost dead by that point, and the others came in to even the odds between a small (and admittedly not-so-peaceful) MA Ulm and a large (and unadmittedly not-so-peaceful) LA Arco.

The small peaceful nation of LA Arcoscephale has not known peace since year one. We have no allies. True, Bandar Log overextended itself and niefelheim attacked it. But that hardly makes LA Arcos allies of the Giants. As Bandar Log can attest LA Arcos attacked niefelheim as well as bandar Log when they were in my domain.I can't really attest to any of this since I have no scouts, but some of that's probably lies too, or at least bending of the truth. Sigh.

All LA Arcoscephale ever desired was peace. Like the hobbits, to be left alone to raise our crops, steal our enemies' crops, drink our beer, 'please' our children, and sing our songs, many about said 'pleasing' of children. Ever has war been forced upon us. When has our peaceful nation ever sought it out? In Utgard. Also LA Arco refused every peace offer Ulm has given, for what that's worth.Bold parts added by me.

[atul]

The small peaceful nation of LA Arcoscephale has not known peace since year one. We have no allies. True, Bandar Log overextended itself and niefelheim attacked it. But that hardly makes LA Arcos allies of the Giants. As Bandar Log can attest LA Arcos attacked niefelheim as well as bandar Log when they were in my domain.I can't really attest to any of this since I have no scouts, but some of that's probably lies too, or at least bending of the truth. Sigh.

Mostly lies, I currently can't honestly say which of Xietor's many truths I should believe.

In-game BS is fine, out-of-game and out-of-character should be a bit more reasonable like when admining and looking for substitutes. Just my opinion.

And as to in-game BS, it's hardly fair to say that Bandar Log "over-extended" itself. At this part of game two raider thugs and two armies about hundred man each don't an effort make. The reasons Niefelheim had for attacking BL are his own, and he hasn't ever opened any diplomatic channels (we tried, earlier) with Bandar Log. Our dear neighbour Arcoscephale has hinted as to giant's reasons, but as earlier remarked he's not a trusted source.

In other news, little monkeys still gape in awe all the riches the invaders are wasting attacking us. Now would be a good time to start sniping Jarls, the season has already begun!

[Xietor]

/whistles innocently.

:):):)

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

Did you notice your global not existing anymore? And what did Ruin do that turn? He got some kills...

[Xietor]

Looming Hell is LA marignon's declaration of War on the entire World. So We do not mind.

As soon as LA Caelum loses as commander to the spell, he should take LA marignon's capital. The Global is a breach of the NAP. Just like Wrath of Gods.

I guess that is the Council of Marignon's final rude gesture at the world before they disappear into the annuls of history. A footnote of a soured civilization.

And all because they would not let leave a Civilized Nation alone. At one time we thought that they were enlightened, but sadly we see they are a demonic race of misfits. Just last turn we sent out overtures of peace, but what is their response? Disease Demons.

So be it. Ruin will destroy you LA Marignon since that is the Fate you seek with all of your heart. Ruin will not disappoint you. There will no more talk of Peace. Our Swords will do all of our talking now and Ruin's laughter will haunt you as your cities burn to ashes.

Darkwind-and this is friendly advice for future games-search your provinces for gems. I just found an Earh gem site of all things when searching one of your former castles I took. Ulm may not be able to search every province for every gem type, but you should be able to search every province you own for Earth sites.

[AdmiralZhao]

A few clarifications from Ruin's message:


Just last turn we sent out overtures of peace, but what is their response?

A simple lie, as the only messages we have received from Ruin are the same delusional ravings that he spams everyone else with.


Looming Hell is LA marignon's declaration of War on the entire World.
...
The Global is a breach of the NAP. Just like Wrath of Gods.

If Ruin would open up his spell grimoire, he would see that the Looming Hell only affects enemies in dominion. He might also notice that Wrath of God affects all enemies, everywhere. Ruin could then note at this point that the two spells are different. One spell affects nations attacking Marignon, the other spell affects all nations.


...disappear into the annuls of history

I believe the word Ruin is looking for is is "annals". Annuls means to void or nullify, for example "The Looming Hell annulled the Maelstrom this turn." And in any case, the spirit of LA Marignon will live on in pendants everywhere.


To be honest, I am not sure why Ruin is always so angry. To be sure, he lost a Maelstrom, but that is only 80 gems and I think it has paid for itself by now. Perhaps it is a side effect of Lichdom, the constant and annoying pains from one's phantom body.

[LoloMo]

A few clarifications from Ruin's message:


...disappear into the annuls of history

I believe the word Ruin is looking for is is "annals". Annuls means to void or nullify, for example "The Looming Hell annulled the Maelstrom this turn." And in any case, the spirit of LA Marignon will live on in pendants everywhere.


To be honest, I am not sure why Ruin is always so angry. To be sure, he lost a Maelstrom, but that is only 80 gems and I think it has paid for itself by now. Perhaps it is a side effect of Lichdom, the constant and annoying pains from one's phantom body.

:D :D

[Xietor]

Quote from page 120 of the game thread, and before this previous turn:

"Ruin is now entertaining, for a short period only, peace offers from nations who wantonly attacked him with no justification. Such offers should include recompense for harm done to the peoples of LA Arcoscephale"

This was the overture of peace that Ruin spoke of. Why is everything Ruin states, especially things stated publicly for all to see, called lies? Perhaps the Council of Marignon did not think their nation was the aptly described? Be that as it may, Ruin made no deliberate misstatement.

Ruin is always angry when he is forced to go to War to defend his small peaceful nation from hostile invaders. Some may like War, but Arcoscephale is a civilized nation of poets and scholars. War is viewed as failure of diplomacy and an instrument of last resort.

Ruin is not angry that his global was dispelled. Globals come and globals go. Ruin is just thankful the gods banned Astral Corruption. Looming Hell we can deal with. Just make sure your dominion does not spread beyond your borders.

ooc-thanks for correcting my grammar. It is always nice to be taught new things.

[Tichy]

Pendants, or pedants?

Pedantically yours,
Pennies

[JimMorrison]

LoLoMo..... What you did to those poor Chayots was just plain EVIL. I can't believe your legion of mages was able to kill them with Stellar Cascades.....

With that final pissing in the wind, LA Gath is now AI.

Next megagame, I'm signing up early, as a nation I actually like. :happy:

<3

[Xietor]

As the Original Game Admin., let me thank you for taking over and filling in so admirably.
You were one heck of a sub and you definitely put your stamp on LA Gath.

Good luck in the next game!

Llamabeast is hosting next years(yes you are Llamabeast). So he is the one to talk to about race selection. heh.

[atul]

LoLoMo..... What you did to those poor Chayots was just plain EVIL. I can't believe your legion of mages was able to kill them with Stellar Cascades.....
Stellar Cascades is _so_ sweet spell. Just this turn one Niefel Jarl was killed by them and other would have too should those damned Markatas stopped rock-throwing and started clubbing.

[LoloMo]

LoLoMo..... What you did to those poor Chayots was just plain EVIL. I can't believe your legion of mages was able to kill them with Stellar Cascades.....
Stellar Cascades is _so_ sweet spell. Just this turn one Niefel Jarl was killed by them and other would have too should those damned Markatas stopped rock-throwing and started clubbing.

I actually got that idea from exactly that battle where a small force of monkey PD plus 4 stellar cascade casting chimps took out a fully kited Niefel Jarl SC. Thanks Atul! I was wracking my brains trying to think of a way to take down 2 Chayots and 6 Ophans I think. Then lo and behold, a little scout came and showed me the way! :D

Gath is a very tough nation. I think I will pick them next game.

[JimMorrison]

Oh it's a useful spell, and I like using it. Just figured at 22MR (I know, coulda/shoulda been higher), that not enough of something like that should stick.

Worst part is, Chayots aren't that high HP, if I hadn't had the Ophanim clustered with them, your mages could have found something else to mess with.

Not that I think it would have made so much difference with your 55 commanders throwing all hell at me. ;) Which BTW, good move getting rid of all the human sized troops with the RoS/Earthquake combos - if you play them, remember they get no access to Arrow Fend. :p

[Xietor]

I am not sure mr protects from stellar cascades. Though I think it did once upon a time. In Alpaca my e9n9 White Centaurs fought many an astral race and seemed never to be bothered by the spell. And I do recall specifically watching battle replays looking at that issue.

Was the E9 bless enough to offset the mass spam from stellar cascades? i do not think it was. I remember literally 30-40 mages spamming my White Centaurs and they just did not get much fatigue. Though i had 40-50 of them and you do not get to spam them all that long before they are on top of you. But I think at some past point MR was a counter. But it does not appear to help anymore.

[Gregstrom]

Oh it's a useful spell, and I like using it. Just figured at 22MR (I know, coulda/shoulda been higher), that not enough of something like that should stick.



What made you think you got an MR roll against Stellar Cascades?

Edit: Ninja'd. as for the centaurs, I'd guess that bonus armour from E9 as well as reinvig could have let the centaurs shrug off a lot of the stun damage.

[atul]

MR certainly does not help against SCs (Stellar Cascades, dummy :p ), but with E9 bless the extra armour helps a bit and extra reinvigoration even more. Only problem with SC is that the AI won't cast it, preferring Paralyze even against MR 30+ opponents. Which is plain silly.

IMHO the AI statistical analysis shouldn't be just about the expected return (effect * probability), but should take variance into account. Even taking just median result would help against high-effect outliers that make AI cast paralyze on night-immune targets.

[JimMorrison]

What made you think you got an MR roll against Stellar Cascades?


Anecdotal, non-scientific observation? O.o

I just thought I saw even ordinary troops sometimes suffer no Fatigue.

At any rate, that's just brutal with a large enough force casting it. Seriously, by the end of the second volley, one of the Chayots was already ~130 Fatigue. You can't reinvig from that. :p

[Xietor]

There are effective counters to Stellar Cascades. You saw them in the battle you watched with me fighting marignon. He had like 40 astral mages there, and you might have noticed most were spamming that spell, but you did not see many of my troops bothered by it.

[JimMorrison]

Well that's more typical of a larger engagement - the mages spread it around. In this particular case, all I had left was 2 Chayots, 7 Ophanim, and a handful of Kohen thugs. The Ophanim were set to Guard Commander on one of the Chayots, and that made that particular spot on the field my highest HP density, so they just bombarded that Chayot over and over again.

So if the most effective counter is large numbers of troops, we were a couple of turns late for me to make use of that. :D

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, boy do I feel stupid. Stellar Cascades is not AN! I was staring straight at the data dump and I didn't realize it!

I had more or less resigned myself to losing a bunch of Jarls, but if all I have to do is boost their prot to 25 (easy enough to do), then it's not an issue.

Sigh. I wish I had the time to devote myself fully to this game :(.

Thesis work, election, etc. etc.

[Xietor]

Game is scheduled to move to a 72 hour host on turn 70 Dr P. Hopefully that will give you and everyone else who is at war more time to do their turns.

Zeldor seems to have got his wish. War in the East. While in the West there is just a ma arcos/ma agartha(backed by la agartha) v EA Mictlan war.

So while the Eastern powers beat each other up and spend all of their gems, the nation who has had the Chalice for years sits atop a pile of plunder. Likely doling out favors here and there. But that is good diplomacy Zeldor. My hat is off to you.

And that is consistent with my prediction long ago, the winner of Kingmaker will be the race that can snag 15 capitals without getting himself bogged down in a brutal 40 turn plus war. And that seems to exclude most of the East.

[Xietor]

Jim,

Yeah, I did not see your battle.

With 7 or so units your options are very limited. If you had the 1st attack, there are some very nasty things you could have done on round one that may have meant there were no opposing units on the battlefield(or very few units) to cast stellar cascades.

But Lolomo is a top player and if he was careful-and he usually is-he likely had storm up and had his units well spaced, limiting many of your more obvious options. Fighting Lolomo is no picnic.

I see you are entering the game as helheim. Good Luck!

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

I am sure I do much less diplomacy than you do. But well, as you said, that may be less chaotic situation in the west that makes that :) And you should decide if I am weak or not. If Ma Arco had my support against Mictlan then the latter would be losing. If you are interested in some 'favours' though, I could arrange something probably, you know the prices - they may be steep, but my necros are quite happy with their research work. It's safe and you cannot make enemies that way :)

And good luck to JimMorrison, maybe he will bring some new life to Helheim, no activity there for ages. Just pumping that dominion every day...

[Zeldor]

My Enemies rise and look to the skies
They Pray I will never appear
The Life has no meaning
Awake they are dreaming
They live in a castle of fear


---

[atul]

Ooh, poetry!

Who are you attacking?

In other news, 18 commanders moved on your province is small change. 18 commanders /teleported/ on your single province is sure sign of endgamish things to come.

[Xietor]

We have not examined the Score Card in quite some time. On turn 69(no wisecracks please), here is the lay of the second Big Game.

And before I give the raw data, I will add the the East is in a state of Total War. No nation has really escaped it outside of Formoria and LA Caelum. LA Caelum has been at war, but has smartly avoided wars that were draining on his nation. Formoria through staling and other seeming disinterest in the game, managed to escape notice.

The Seas have been won by land Races. LA Agartha owns one lake, having killed off ma atlantis. Niefelheim owns a bigger 2 capital lake having driven ea atlantis from the lake(though EA Atlantis gamely has continued a guerilla war against as many as six or 7 land nations. EA Atlantis had beaten MA Ryleh previously(after Redfrog took the reins).

EA Ryleh, the last water race of any power, owns the largest body of water, and the capitals of EA and MA Oceania.

EA Mictlan is at war with MA Arcos and MA Agartha in the West. Lanka is taking a well deserved break from a victory over kailasa. LA Agrtha and Helheim appear strangely quiet.

Of the 63 Nations that started the game, the EA appears to be doing best with 8 races still doing well:

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>EA Arcoscephale</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Ulm</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Marverni</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Sauromatia</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Mictlan</td> <td>33</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Abysia</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Caelum</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA C'tis</td> <td>21</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Agartha</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Tir na n'Og</td> <td>36</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Fomoria</td> <td>37</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Vanheim</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Helheim</td> <td>59</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Niefelheim</td> <td>76</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Kailasa</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Yomi</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Hinnom</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Atlantis</td> <td>9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA R’lyeh</td> <td>48</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Oceania</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Arcoscephale</td> <td>20</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Pythium</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Man</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Ulm</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Marignon</td> <td>43</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Mictlan</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Machaka</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Agartha</td> <td>18</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Abysia</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Caelum</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA C'tis</td> <td>32</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Vanheim</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Jotunheim</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Bandar Log</td> <td>35</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Ashdod</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Atlantis</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA R'lyeh</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Oceania</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Arcoscephale</td> <td>54</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Man</td> <td>48</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Marignon</td> <td>44</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Mictlan</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Jomon</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Agartha</td> <td>79</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Abysia</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Caelum</td> <td>76</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA C'tis</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Pangaea</td> <td>16</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Midgard</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Utgard</td> <td>43</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Patala</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Gath</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Atlantis</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>EA Lanka</td> <td>63</td> </tr> <tr> <td>MA Eriu</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Pythium</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>LA Bogarus</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Amhazair]

Ooh, poetry!

Who are you attacking?
Me. :(

After years of constant warfare to safeguard the deepest forest glades of our people from the relentless encroachment of so-called "civilised" nations the brave survivors of the Pangaean heritage have finally drawn the attention of the superpower of LA Agartha.

No doubt the imperialistic machinery of said nation is counting on its overwhelming technological and numerical superiority to subdue our defences without the slightest regard for our undoubtedly superior culture.

So be it. They will find us ready. to die.

[Zeldor]

Oh, I also think it woul be wise to request an increase for commander/troop limit in next patch. I am really afraid we can hit it before game ends, there are probably few hundred new commanders recruited a turn now [well, everyone can just look at how many commanders he has and compare it with % of provs he has].

[Xietor]

I do not think that unit limit is a concern. The last Big Game went nearly to turn 100, and had among the surviving nations all 3 Pangaeas, la Ermor, la ryleh, and ma ermor.

There really is no Major power in this game with huge armies like there was in the last game. Of course that is no guarantee. Also there was no victory condition in the last big game. Basically players could fight until their last province was taken.

Here a smart player could do precision strikes and end up with 15 capitals and the game and only have a total of 100 provinces. 1/9 the map.

There is no guarantee unit caps will not be reached, but with no free spawn nation other than Mictlan left, I think it unlikely. 2/3 of the Mictlans are dead also, and one is at war.

Of course major blood powers can summon huge amounts of imps etc., but that is all the more reason to not sit on your hands while your neighbor blood hunts.

The game is designed to end by turn 100. There are good players in the game and the victory condition requires less than 1/4 capitals. If the game ends for any reason, as stated in the original thread, the player with the most capitals wins.

Lanka has declared 6. So if the game ended now due to a technical glitch of some unforeseen nature, under the victory conditions set forth in the original game thread, Lanka would be the winner(assuming his 6 capitals is still the highest count).

Unlike the last Big Game, this game will have a winner whether it ends due to the time limt(also imposed in the original game thread), or some unforseen technical glitch. The time limit to save people some reading is far off. It is sometime next spring, late spring, early summer, whenever it is time to start next year's Big Game 's Race selection. there is an exact date, but it escapes me. But it is many months away.

[AdmiralZhao]

This last turn, LA Man sent out a call to increase the turn time to 72 hours a bit early. I think it is a good idea, and would certainly help me get decent turns in on time.

[Zeldor]

Is JimMorrison playing Helheim? He is supposed to be a new perm sub, but staled last turn and didn't submit this turn yet.

[JimMorrison]

Hmmm, I wasn't paying much attention. I was waiting for last turn to pass, as I had set Gath to AI, and so couldn't do a turn for Helheim yet (I told Hadrian as much when I sent him my email).

But, I see that the next turn hasn't arrived either. I just requested a resend from Llamaserver, but I don't seem to be getting a response, so there must be a typo. I'll resend my email to Hadrian.....

[DrPraetorious]

I'd also like 72 hour turns.

[Xietor]

I think hadrian is on European time, so he may not be getting these late replies. There is only 1 more turn until the scheduled 72 hour hosting is supposed to begin. But I have no objection to it starting one turn early.

In fact I asked several turns ago when I was still game admin and only EA Mictlan asked for an earler move to 72 hours. And due to the underwhelming lack of response, i left it alone at 48 hours.

With LA man, Niefelheim, EA Mictlan, and LA Marignon all asking for it, that would seem sufficient to me. But it is up to Hadrian.

With respect to Helheim, I think Jimmorrison set gath to ai last turn. Game rules forbid a player from playing 2 races on the same turn. So he did the proper thing in letting helheim stale one more turn. I doubt it hurt them any since they are not at war with anyone except Ulm.

[Hadrian_II]

OK, i set the hosting timer to 72h.

[Xietor]

Thanks Hadrian!

Ruin's laughter shattered the silence, "Tell me the they did not try that."

Head Sibyl:But they did Sire. At least two LA Marignon Mages have been rendered feebleminded. Most likely for life. I guess desperate times calls for desperate tactics Sire. We can assure you that none of our assets will be left vulnerable to mind hunts.

Ruin howled with laughter. "But Rocky the Gargoyle is MINDLESS! Do those fools even know you cannot mind hunt a rock with no mind?"

Head Sibyl:Obviously Sire, the Council of Marignon's mastery of Arcane Magic leaves much to be desired.

[Darkwind]

Looks like Ulm is down. In the battle against EA C'tis, we killed 169 troops (Three quarters of the total!) and five commanders, at the cost of every commander in Ulm's possession but Monny himself. All this under a Storm too. Sadly, no Banes were killed. He had five, too! I guess I'll have to be content with clearing a mass of chaff because the stupid Smiths didn't realize that a dead Bane hurts an enemy more then twelve dead longdead raised on the battlefield. A battle report is forthcoming. :)

By the way I was gone for a few days, which is why I haven't replied to the thread (or anything really) in a while.

[Xietor]

We are sure that you are overjoyed that LA Arcos has fought off its aggressors thus far and is going to survive the demise of your Empire. In doing so we even managed to charm a Basalt King, a tartarian cyclops, and demon knights of our enemies. So they now work for us taking former Ulm provinces.

To show your unbridled joy, and as a goodwill token for your own ruthless aggression against our peaceful race, just send your care basket to LA Arcoscephale-care of Ruin. It will be used to crush your enemies and avenge your losses to LA Marignon, another ruthless aggressor. Or you can send your gems/gold to ma man. That is the next best thing to sending the gems to Ruin directly, as he plans to directly take the next arena purse himself.

Best Wishes,

Ruin, Prince of Peace.

[Tichy]

So long, and thanks for all the earth boots!

But what you fail to mention is that I killed FORTY FIVE of your mages. Granted, a couple dozen of them looked a bit peaked to start with...

I don't think the storm did diddly. Mr Pennies just likes casting it a lot. So we let him. (Or maybe someone can tell me whether Storm reduces the effectiveness of magma eruption...if it does, then it was *totally* part of my evil plan.)

I did feel a twinge of guilt when I saw those eruptions clear out all my chaff, sparing me the upkeep of the "lowborn soldiers" the fates seem dead set on handing me every couple months, while leaving my banelord in the middle standing there looking pretty. (Well, not pretty, he is a banelord after all.)

Thanks for a great game Darkwind.

[Xietor]

Cast "rain." That increases the fatigue of fire spells and lessens their burning effect. Storm may, but I know rain does. Storm likely does as well unless it is in a cold province and becomes snow. Who can say what a snow storm does to fire magic?

Thematically of course storm should work as well as rain, but if it is not coded like rain, it may not.


On a sad note, Darkwind promised me several pairs of Earth boots. Sounds like he went and lost them all(: I guess I will just have to settle for E gems.

[Darkwind]

So long, and thanks for all the earth boots!

But what you fail to mention is that I killed FORTY FIVE of your mages. Granted, a couple dozen of them looked a bit peaked to start with...

I don't think the storm did diddly. Mr Pennies just likes casting it a lot. So we let him. (Or maybe someone can tell me whether Storm reduces the effectiveness of magma eruption...if it does, then it was *totally* part of my evil plan.)

I did feel a twinge of guilt when I saw those eruptions clear out all my chaff, sparing me the upkeep of the "lowborn soldiers" the fates seem dead set on handing me every couple months, while leaving my banelord in the middle standing there looking pretty. (Well, not pretty, he is a banelord after all.)

Thanks for a great game Darkwind.Were those water-nymph warriors supposed to be chaff or lowborn soldiers? I guess so. Also, I think my Earthquake killed quite a few of the Smiths as well, so you can't claim to have killed all forty-five of my smiths, since I have the dubious victory of denying you their heads :)

Thanks for the great game Tichy (and Xietor, and everyone else for that matter :D). I had fun, and will continue having fun right up until Monny dies. What? You didn't expect me to go AI, did you? I said I wouldn't. ;)

[Zoshan]

Tichy your god had 1 hp that whole fight. I was just watting for him to die from some dumb random spell or effect. Why would you risk your god in enemy dominion?

[Tichy]

Because sometimes I don't do the smartest thing.

[Xietor]

I was going to wait until you were officially dead, but great game Darkwind. You did wonders with MA Ulm, and ultilized the new features that KO added quite well.

And you played a smart game. Triple teaming Evilhomer early on and taking out LA Mictlan likely saved MA Ulm, EA Ctis, and MA Ctis from early exits. Though it was not fun or fair for Evilhomer, That was a smart move to get rid of a powerful bless nation with an excellent player before they ever got rolling.

Attacking me likely was a mistake. As you got my attention for several turns before I got jumped by Atul and Admiralzhao, and you lost many armies and mages. Your better bet was likely to attack EA Ctis who was still recovering from LA Tien Chi's assault on him.

But it was your 1st mp game, and i do not think you realized that 2 baneloeds would be able to kill 150 of your best castle bought troops even with 20 mages backing them up.
So it was a learning expereince for you. Not many races have castle bought troops that you can rely on through the midgame. And just because your spells work well against some foes, does not mean they work well against all.

With your strong Earth Magic, for the midgame your best options to counter banelords(you had ea ctis, ma ctis, and la tien chi as neighbors-banelords were inevitable):

1. Alteration: petrify

2. conjuration troll kings-trolls. Can contact trolls for 1 e gem. Troll king can also with summon earthpower and earth boots cast petrify. Petrify will stop banelords and most everything else.

3. Mechanical men-construction

4. conj 8 Earth attacks. these are brutal.

Iron Angel-I do not like the Iron Angel so much because its special attacks are not inherent. You cant give it a fire brand and a shield. I think the penalty of not having magic or being capable of having magic is enough. It can never travel(cloud trapeze, teleport). It can never buff like a harbinger, who can also travel and fly, and cast battlefield spells(fog warriors, arrow fend, wind guide) and evocations(thunderstrike) in combat.

I also do not like how the new alteration (cheap at 2 water gems)green lion has a special attack that seems tailor made to cripple these iron angels, and not other magic beings. shrug. In fact I made a few just in case an iron angel ever made an appearance.

But conj 8 is still a high priority goal i think for Ulm for Earth Attacks.

In any event, thanks for playing Darkwind. It was great having you in Kingmaker. And take my advice on Ulm with a grain of salt. I realize Ulm is limited in its research capabilities, and you likely did the best you could to reach the spells you did get with the very hard research mod in place.

I do hope you used a ton of lightless lanterns though. Anytime you play a race with
research limitations, lightless lanterns are your friends. I realize skull mentors come earlier, but i just never make those unless i am playing pangaea and take 2 drain(a very very research challenged race). I can almost always find a better use for my death gems than a skull mentor.

[DonCorazon]

Good game Darkwind. My advice would be to get anyone with death magic, which is pretty easy to get into, even with some indies like Deer Shamans or whatever and cast Dust to Dust or Wither Bones once you have some boosters or spectres summoned. Having lost a number of Bane Lords in another game, I find them rather fragile once you are prepared for them.

On another note, feel free to donate any research aids to the Utgard School of Blind Orphan Werewolves. I am sure we are last in research and these little cubs need an education to survive in the rapid pace of today's modern KM economy.

[Darkwind]

First things first-this was actually my second MP game, though it was definitely still a learning experience (boy did I learn when I realized the early game was over as my almost-magicless army was steamrolled by yours!). I also played Ascendant as EA R'lyeh first, and lost roughly as miserably to a combination Sauromatia/T'ien Ch'i, even with Abysia, Caelum, Kailasa, & Atlantis (at least) taking the brunt of the conflict. I just finished my 3rd MP game (the first Corruption; I think there were two) though, in which I think I did fairly will with LA C'tis, even arming a couple SCs (that probably weren't so super but hey) before Pan was declared winner. So there you have it a summary of my MP experiences so far :) I don't think Monny was really built that well, either. Earth instead of Air would probably have helped, since those stupid birds can't do anything right.

@bane lords: I figured Earth Meld might help hold them, although looking back on it I think Earth Meld depends upon morale, making it good for elephants but bad for SCs. I thought that, at worst, my massive Smith army would toast them (though in the battle chaff was targeted over bane lords to do the most damage per spell). I probably would have won the battle at Ulm, actually, if not for that Storm that added so much fatigue. So yeah I was pretty defenseless against the Bane Lords.

@research: I didn't forge any Lightless Lanterns, instead relying on imported Skull Mentors (of which there were quite a few from EA C'tis). I might have started making them but my pitiful gem income (from pitiful site searching) stopped me in my tracks.

@DC: I said I'd give Two-Eyes something, right? ;)

[K]

Quick question: was Mists of Deception modded in some way for this game?

[DrPraetorious]

(looks at mod file)

Nope. But the game itself has been patched so that when a caster retreats battlefield enchantments are cancelled, hasn't it?

[K]

(looks at mod file)

Nope. But the game itself has been patched so that when a caster retreats battlefield enchantments are cancelled, hasn't it?

Yes, it has. I just noticed some strange results from a battle.

[Meglobob]

I think MoD was altered with Twans mod, fairly late on, just before the game started. But I could be wrong.

[Xietor]

yeah, MOD was modded with Twan's mod. That was due to popular demand K. No other spell was changed. There was a huge flap on the main board about the spell being unstoppable. I had proposed the casting mage not being able to retreat for 5 turns, but a vast majority wanted more. So Twan's Mod was used.

Now that the spell has been fixed, I am assuming the Kingmaker Mod could be easily tweaked to remove the Twan Mod, but then everyone would haveto download the Kingmaker II mod, and LLamabeast would have to change it on his end.

Not sure it is worth it. Twan's mod is actually pretty good.

Some spells were removed entirely. Astral Corruption, Arcane Nexus, Burden of Time, and Utterdark.

Other than that, I think the spells are all normal. The research is tired, with lower spells normal, then hard, and 7-9 very hard. Again, that was by popular demand.

[K]

yeah, MOD was modded with Twan's mod. That was due to popular demand K. No other spell was changed. There was a huge flap on the main board about the spell being unstoppable. I had proposed the casting mage not being able to retreat for 5 turns, but a vast majority wanted more. So Twan's Mod was used.

Yes, I remember that bruhaha. I posted several games showing that a small force could fight their way out of a MoD + retreat and people screamed bloody murder at me in a most unreasonable fashion.

Oh well. I guess part of the agreement when you sub is that you explicitly agree to the conditions of the game. It's a real shame that it means my late-game is neutered to fix a bug that is already fixed. Twan's mod actually makes me wish I hadn't researched enchantment that high.

[Zeldor]

And lvl9 is bugged, it costs as much as lvl8, but should be about 1,6k RP more. All spells are set to very diff research of course, but 1-6 ones got moved to lower level.

Xietor, K, Meglobo: You are not joining my team game? Still have 6 slots to fill :(

[Xietor]

No, this is my last mp game for a bit. I want to take some time off to play some of the mods in sp, and to update Epic Heroes Mod one last time(assuming KO will STOP adding new races).

But I am ready for a few months of from mp after this game concludes, or I am killed off.

[Zeldor]

Hehe, same for me here. I could use few months of break, so let's finish Kingmaker before Christmas :)

[Meglobob]

Xietor, K, Meglobo: You are not joining my team game? Still have 6 slots to fill :(

Sorry Zeldor, no spare time.

[K]

Xietor, K, Meglobo: You are not joining my team game? Still have 6 slots to fill :(

Sorry. One big game and one little is my limit.

[Xietor]

Kingmaker hosted after a long delay caused by gremlins attacking Llamaserver(or it could be an old girlfriend seeking revenge:shock:).

In any event Kingmaker crawled to turn 73. On this turn Kingmaker bids its official farewell to MA Ulm and Gath. Ulm succumbed after a long but futile war against the Lizards, but Ulm had been weakened mightily by Ruin. Another Monolith gone from the World. And a cheer rang out. :)

Ruin's advisers harbored a secret fear that the Monolith may teleport out to a castle LA Arcos had under siege and spam magic duel over and over and do some nasty harm to LA Arcos before departing. But the pile of rock just sat in it capital awaiting its doom. Perhaps realizing that its war against Ruin was unjust, and that it deserved its fate-banishment to the lowest Plane for all of time. :eek:

LA Arcos scouts observed lizards chiseling the earthly remains of the monolith into many small rocks, perhaps to use as ammo for their slings, or maybe for stones to surround the army's latrine.

Gath fell in near record time to a blitz from the Ice Dwellers known as LA Caelum. Ruin's scouts were not present to observe how this war was started and ended so quickly. Ruin suspects that Gath became decadent, and rust gathered on their swords and their warriors' told more stories of battles over cups of ale than actually training for future conflicts.

But Ruin also suspects that the flying armies and undead of LA Caelum attacked with such fury and skill that Gath was overmatched, and their peoples' hearts doubted that such a war could have but one end. And they accepted defeat and a promise of citizenship in a new and stronger empire, rather than the alternative.

Only 5 races from the MA remain.

Bandar Log, Marignon, Agartha, Arcos, and Ctis. Of those races Arcos and Agartha are losing wars. Shortly the Middle Age may be reduced to only 3 Empires.

LA Agartha has added the capital of MA Atlantis to his coffers, and is about to savage LA Pangaea. LA Agartha is the most powerful nation, by virtue of having the chalice and other constr 8 artifacts the entire game, as well as the most resources.

But diplomacy will still win Kingmaker.There are still at least 10 nations that could be called powers. And it is doubtful that any nation in Kingmaker could do more than hold his own if attacked by two powers. So time will tell who ends up with 15 capitals and is crowned King, and who will end up being Kingmaker(s).

**A kingmaker is a player who lacks sufficient resources or position to win at a given game, but possesses enough remaining resources to decide which of the remaining viable players will eventually win.

***After a good bit of reflection, I do think giving away a capital crosses the line. While giving military help to aid an ally is fine, my own personal opinion would be that giving away capitals would not be kosher. In other words while I may help someone in a war, i will defend the capitals I own against any and all players to the best of my ability.

Since I am not game admin. and even if I was, that is just my opinion. Such things would be impossible to enforce. But I think it would violate the spirit of the competition.

[Zeldor]

I will support Xietor on that - I'd rather lose the game then use dirty tricks like asking my allies for his caps, so I can win. And I believe that others share same belief :)

P.S. And why so much fear against poor nation of Agartha? Remember, we are nice and friendly! At least my Minister of Propaganda claims that.

[JimMorrison]

Since LA Agartha has declared war on the also decadent and bloated EA Helheim, I would surmise that fear would be the appropriate reaction from the rest of the world.

EA Tir na' n'Og has dissolved NAP as well, so the disorganized nation of Helheim will likely fall as fast a Gath (in relative terms, anyways).

A wise leader would take the next couple of months to arrange forces near one of Agartha's myriad and far-flung borders, ready to strike at that brief moment of imbalance as the few tricks that Helheim can muster are performed to stagger the incredible war machine coming to grind the bones of the Hangadrotti.

While I am becoming known for making similar pleas in the hopes that an unexpected addition to the war could leave me on top, let me be perfectly transparent here - Helheim will not survive this conflict. Thus, one must ask themselves, "is the looming threat of a true world war more frightening than the prospect of simply losing through inaction?".


Only time will tell who is prudent, who is brilliant, and who is victorious. Likely, one warlord will embody all three.

[Darkwind]

If Monoliths could have ghosts (and said Monolithic ghost was not forced to, ahem, 'please' an Arcoscephalean Sibyl or a C'tissian Sauromancer through some deal with Death and/or the Astral Powers That Be), the Monolithic god of MA Ulm would probably reply to Arcoscephale by saying, "I didn't have a Lab to alchemize gems to teleport out, though believe me did I want to."

If Monoliths could have ghosts.

Also, Monny sadly almost killed a Bane Lord, which would have made his proverbial day that much brighter before Death or the Astral Powers That Be came to take him (it?) away and apply various painful ways of posthumously convincing Monny attacking a nation twice his size with many times his research level (and connections to various beings with power over spirits and spiritual being) was a textbook Bad Idea(tm). Unfortunately, he aimed a spell badly and, though it killed some enemy units, did not kill the right ones. Then he (it?) just sort of fell unconscious and died. That's the story of Ulm right there, it almost won everything. Sure, most of the wars it survived (except the Arco one obviously), but Ulm never made any significant gains.

Better luck next time, eh? :) Let's see if I can do better as MA R'lyeh or something (not that I'd choose MA R'lyeh, I'd probably do another weak race, maybe take EA R'lyeh again).

[Tichy]

Great game Darkwind!

[DonCorazon]

Ulm: sorry to see you go. While Two-Eyes' widow never received the promised arena congratulatory gift, we won't hold it against you. Ulm's postal service probably had some delivery issues as the nation went down in flames.

The ever warring lands in the east are a tough place to grow up.

GG!

[Darkwind]

I can still play my turn (or rather, give away what's left after my turn), and Llamaserver isn't counting me out yet (or so it seems, this is the first Llamaserver game I've lost before the game itself was ended), so believe me, Utgard will be drowning in skulls and hammers if I have anything to say about it. :)

[DonCorazon]

hey all, just sitting down to take care of Utgard's turn, and I see that the Norna's can now cast the new Jomon summons like Contact Mori-no-kami. I am not going to cast them as they are obviously not meant to be Utgard summons but wonder if this is a bug related to the mod for Kingmaker interacting with the new patch or the new patch generally...

[DrPraetorious]

I take it that means this turn should be done in version 3.21?

[llamabeast]

You can do it either with or without, JK insists it makes no difference.

[Meglobob]

Ok then, who's the armageddon joker?

1,009 unfortunate slaves met there deaths as a result!

[JimMorrison]

Wow, Armaggedon. That sure screws me right there - how bout everyone else? :o

If anyone is bored, might cross reference this game with the players in Stasis, someone Wished Armageddon there this last turn, coincidence, or bored party-pooper? Stay tuned!

[Zeldor]

I thought it was you casting it here :) At least you are the biggest suspect. So you probably did it in the other game too :)

[Meglobob]

Of the nations remaining, you have to suspect Ea R'lyeh or La Arco but at this stage could be anyone...lets hope they haven't been clamming, otherwise it could be a armageddon per turn!

[Zeldor]

Did you look at EA R'lyeh income? And it's hard to believe that Arco has no better used for 100S gems.

And clamming? Someone would really need very good paths for that, W3N2 is not popular in the world.

[Meglobob]

Anyone read this thread?:-

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40893

Cast 11 armegeddons (creates a effect same as casting utter dark, ie reduce income to 10%), then wish for population yourself (gain 5,000 population), is this the beginning of the end?!?

[Xietor]

It was certainly not EA Ryleh. lol. Look at his research.

In any event, it was not me. And it was likely not anyone that relies on gold, ruling out EA Ryleh and me.

Likely suspects are blood nations, as they do not need gold, and nations that have converted to exclusively sc's and undead.

In the East that is LA Marignon. No clue who that could be in the West.

It could also be a sore loser "I am going out with a bang" spell.

Again that fits LA Marignon(not the sore loser part), as he is going under rather rapidly. And yes admiralzhao that was me that took out your 2 banelords, blood mage, and the little reverant that were leading those devils.

You can absolutely count on being mind hunted whenever you forget to send out s mage escorts with an army, even if they are nowhere close to my borders. My scouts are EVERYWHERE! And if you are wandering why i did not mind hunt your spy causing unrest in one of my provinces, it is because it is a waste province and not worth my time. but keep at it! Muhahhahahahah.:D:D

[JimMorrison]

I thought it was you casting it here :) At least you are the biggest suspect. So you probably did it in the other game too :)


Well, let's put that in perspective (ignoring that I had no Wish capable casters in Stasis, since it's irrelevant) - I went from 300g net income, to around -1000g net income.

I may be bold, but I am not exactly stupid. Honestly, I think Armageddon should have been on the ban list for this game, and I think you know how I feel about doing "bad" things. :shock:

Though at this point, with people pointing fingers, and my newly adopted dysfunctional nation disintegrating around me, I wish I had Alt9 researched, as I could probably drop 3 more on top of that one if I alchemized. Oh wait, Alt9 is finishing this next turn - I was driving hard for Army of Lead when I took over..... say goodbye to your populations, folks. <3

[Xietor]

I did cast wish last turn, but Admiralzhao can tell you what I have been wasting my s gems on. And it is not Armageddon.


And I have a substantial number of clams. As the game host, who had no goal of wearing the crown, I was doing all sorts of little tests just to see how things would shake out. That was one reason I went for Global I cast. Sadly it is gone now, so it is very hard to continue my experiment(:

[Meglobob]

Likely suspects are blood nations, as they do not need gold, and nations that have converted to exclusively sc's and undead.

It would not be a blood nation, as it destroys 1/3 of all population in a province! You try blood hunting in a province of 500 pop or lower! Armegeddon destroys blood hunting nations.

[JimMorrison]

Again that fits LA Marignon(not the sore loser part), as he is going under rather rapidly. And yes admiralzhao that was me that took out your 2 banelords, blood mage, and the little reverant that were leading those devils.


Dunno if you need to sugar coat the "sore loser" part. Zhao has become prime suspect for the Armageddon in Stasis as well, so I think we have a winner here. ;)

But don't think me petty for promising you another couple to top that cake, I had fingers pointed at me in both games for really unfounded reasons - but now I have an S10 Monolith who is going to rain down some Karmageddon on those who make false judgements - creating a self-fulfilling prophedox (I just invented that, it's a prophecy-paradox, don'tcha know?) that will consume all of reality.

[Xietor]

Also, anyone that does not think that Zeldor has made at least one clam a turn with the Forge Hammer is an absolute noob. And if Zeldor has not made one a turn with the forge hammer, then he is the total noob. nuff said.

[DonCorazon]

what's all the whining about? its just a little tremor. in utgard that's a measly 3.5 on the richter scale, maybe knocked down one of the Sidhe heads in the trophy room, is all.

luck 3 brought in 1500 gold and more gems anyway. and growth 3 ensures the bounty in the gode's halls. not that it will matter much, we see the writing on the wall in the east. utgards' warlords are war weary anyway, and welcome our impending doom. No gloating though please. Respect your foes is the motto of Utgard. :)

[Zeldor]

JimMorrison:

I actually thought that you staled, I checked game status just before hosting. But LA Mari as armageddon bringer really may make more sense. With LA Caelum attacking him with all that low-HP flying thingies...

P.S. You should have said you have upkeep problems. I would be able to cheaply resolve that...

[JimMorrison]

Hah, there were no upkeep problems until someone tore the world asunder and ruined my crops and villages. :p Cash flow was meager, but I had plans to rectify that..... that is, until two (-totally- unrelated, I am sure) nations declared war on me at the same time.

And yeah, I posted my turn 2 minutes before hosting. >.> Helheim was a disorganized mess when I took over, and I'm barely now getting it totally under control, in time for Tir's first strikes, but not in time for it matter much. ;)

[atul]

Bandar Log doesn't mind a small earthquake every now and then - everyone important just reincarnates. Karma's my female dog. :p

[AdmiralZhao]

I should have checked the message boards sooner, I could have saved everyone a lot of speculation.

The Council of Marignon knows who cast Armageddon. And no, it is not one of the blood nations o_0. One of the provinces taken from us in our ill-fated war with LA Arco contained a site that gives a 20% discount on Alteration spells. The LA Arcolians are doubtless using this site and their natural Astral power to cast Wish. We are sure that they are both clamming and wishing for gems. Even more, with the site discount, they can just alchemize gems to pearls, and then Wish for more gems in order to get a net profit for each A9 caster they have. This Armageddon is just their first step in the creation of a new and nightmarish world, a world where Blood Slaves do not even exist! Normally, the Council would ask all nations to concentrate on the threat that LA Arco poses to them. However, we feel that right now Megablob and his endless Beast Bats are possibly an even larger danger, so we are not sure who to ask you to attack. Truly, these are difficult times.

[Xietor]

20 percent alteration bonus?

LA Arcos? I guess I have been sleep walking this game because if I own a 20 percent alteration site that is news to me. The Council of Marignon must have a good memory if they can recall any provinces they took from ruin, because they were held for a fleeting moment in time.:D:D:D.

What you are likely thinking, and have your wirses crossed, is the 20 percent ENCHANTMENT site that Bandar Log took from me, that niefelheim took from BL, and which I reclaimed. Regrettably, a 20 percent enchantment site is not of great value, and as Atul can attest i not only did not build a fort on the province, i did not build a lab either.

If I had a 20 percent ALTERATION site, it would have had a fort and a lab on it, meaning the Council of Marignon would never have known about it because LA Arcos has never had a fort taken from it in Kingmaker. Though LA Marignon did breach the walls on a couple, and saw the insides(briefly) of one, so that counts for something I guess.

In any event if I cast Armageddon I certainly would not deny it. If for some reason I did not want it disclosed that I had cast it, I would just not post anything. I am more than happy to have Llamabeast look at my last turn file and verify my wish was not for Armageddon. Admiralzhao knows what my wish was for!

And Judgment will be passed upon him!

[Reay]

Oh no not Judgement again. :P

I think MA Arco cast Armageddon before he went AI this turn? He has the research, gems and caster so he might have just wanted to cause a stir before he went down. It makes sense because he was attacking EA Mictlan who has lots of slaves. Baalz was the player right?

[Xietor]

yes, Judgment has been reborn, and is almost as powerful as he was in Fallacy!

Admiralzhao has already seen the "weaker" version, if you want to call him that.

On a sad note, Baalz, your brother race LA Arcos could have used those s gems! We hope you did not "waste" them on a spell that caused the death of 179 LA Arcos soldiers at arms and citizens.

On a funny note, Admiralzhao has a spy causing unrest on a waste province I own that generates 13 income. I guess that is one way to safely cause me some gold loss as I likely will not waste the 2 s gems it requires to end this spy's career over a few gold per turn.

[Meglobob]

Oh I did not spot Ma Arco going AI, thanks for the info!

Yes, that explains alot, it will have 100% been Ma Arco who cast Armegeddon, as a last act of vengenance. Indeed to do it, he will have had to alchemy other gems into pearls, as the lands of Ma Arco are not blessed with many s gem sites.

Also, it explains why La Agartha is trying to bully me out of my rightful conquest by saying he intends to just march in and take the Ea Marverni capital. This is very much the La Agarthian way...letting others do the hard fighting, then stealing the loot.

I am going to speak to my meaner, nastier and very terrible blood brother, Ea Lanka who has slaughtered anyone foolish enough to go against him. Think you can stand a determined assault by Ea Mictlan/Ea Helheim/Ea Lanka, Agarthians?!? Lets see...

[Amhazair]

Hey! I feel discriminated, neglected, and left out! Are you not aware of the valiant struggle of LA Pangaea, who have been at war with Agartha far longer than any of the nations you mentioned? (Which would be a couple of turns)

While I will admit that we didn't really cause much damage to the Agarthan juggernaut yet, we also didn't commit any significant forces either, and we still fully intend to add a few tartarian scalps to our trophy pool.

(However, despite stocking up a little cash reserve before hostilities broke out we are now running out of cash supplies to pay our armies. While having a few unprincipled cowards desert our ranks wouldn't quite be the end of the world, anyone sympathising with our plight, and hoping to counteract Agarthan world domination, could probably do far worse from a resources invested/damage caused point of view than sending a few bucks our way to keep our army intact. )

[Zeldor]

Meglobob:

You are overdemonizing Agartha. Well, you are the one with demons marching in your armies :) I am also surprised with Arco player's decision. But you must admit that you didn't have any great victories over Arco, and most of his real armies are still alive [killing a Gargoyle while it's owner was staling does not count much :P]. Arco AI decided to launch multiple attacks on me that turn. And I am simply taking actions that will prevent that. And I am sure that I wrote about honouring and rewarding your war efforts :)

Amhazair:

Yeah, I wonder why your troops are still there :) Overtaxing is not cool! You did one really bad mistake that turn though, you will see it next turn :)

P.S. I got information from reliable sources that points to Niefel as Armageddon bringer. Any comments?

[Meglobob]

Meglobob:

You are overdemonizing Agartha. Well, you are the one with demons marching in your armies :) I am also surprised with Arco player's decision. But you must admit that you didn't have any great victories over Arco, and most of his real armies are still alive [killing a Gargoyle while it's owner was staling does not count much :P].

Yea, I suppose killing over 100+ Arco Mystics/Astrologers/Priestesses, half a dozen banelord thugs, destroying lots of enemy magic items including alot of staffs of the storms/rings of wizardry/sorcery, wiping out 500+ enemy troops and of course taking all but 11 of Ma Arco's provinces was a very, very poor show. Not to mention avoiding all but 1 communion, Master Enslave/Undead Mastery trap.

I will try to do better against my next enemy now that I no longer face Baalz in mortal combat. Just you try stealing any of my rightful conquest and see what happens! Everyone else may be scared of La Agartha but not me and especially not my masters in Hell.

(entire post dripping in sarcasm)

[Zeldor]

I knew I should have forged more of that cool little astral window thingies! :)

[DonCorazon]

Utgard's "Employee of the Month" award goes to Sigmund, the PD1 commander (a 12 HP Herse) who fought off some Atlantean raiders in one of those battles that are so unlikely they fall into the ridiculous category.

He first withstood a Bladewind, then while fighting 3 guys at the same time - killed a merman and chased off an Atlantian militia and Shambler, then dodged a cold bolt from a 2 star Mage of the Deep from 2 squares a way, ran up to the mage who, was then at Protection 26 (after invulnerability), and smote him down with 2 blows.

Sigmund's family will be receiving a free turkey for his efforts.

[Xietor]

With the passing of MA Arcos, I would like to thank Twan for playing Kingmaker. And
Kingmaker is indebted to Baalz who graciously agreed to play MA Oceania when no one else would, then was a long term sub for Kailasa, greatly expanding their borders, and then finally was the Communion Master for MA Arcos. when Twan had to find a sub.

Kingmaker has been hard on the MA races, with only Ctis and Bandar Log remaining on turn 75. With the superpowers racing to add capitals, no telling how much longer those 2 races will be around either.

[DrPraetorious]

As part of our friendly rivalry with our good buddies in LA Agartha, we are soliciting donations of Earth Gems.

If you want to make sure that LA Agartha is weakened soon, send heaping piles of them to EA Niefelheim.

[Zeldor]

Helping a nation that wished for Armageddon to put Forge up? You could as well work in banking business in Iceland now :)

I think that people should just try to win, or die trying to stop someone from doing so, instead of doing donations and getting stuck as someones ally or even worse - just a donator of someone's global.

Xietor:
It looks like MA C'tis is losing his war and his situation is grim.

[DrPraetorious]

So I can't expect a donation from you to put down your own global? That's unfortunate.

And while I *didn't* waste a wish on Armageddon - boy I should've! I don't think it killed any giants. Anyone know how the mechanics for it work?

[Redfrog]

Utgard's "Employee of the Month" award goes to Sigmund, the PD1 commander (a 12 HP Herse) who fought off some Atlantean raiders in one of those battles that are so unlikely they fall into the ridiculous category.

He first withstood a Bladewind, then while fighting 3 guys at the same time - killed a merman and chased off an Atlantian militia and Shambler, then dodged a cold bolt from a 2 star Mage of the Deep from 2 squares a way, ran up to the mage who, was then at Protection 26 (after invulnerability), and smote him down with 2 blows.

Sigmund's family will be receiving a free turkey for his efforts.

Thanks for the report. I haven't noticed this battle yet, I'll have a look of it now:D

[Zeldor]

DrP:

Just doing my part of propaganda :) I might have annoyed a bit too many people with putting that one, well, we will see.

[Xietor]

Putting up the Forge, to me, typically is the "i win" statement. When you put it up you basically are telling the World beat me if you can-i do not think you can.

I consider NAPs terminated with the nation casting the Forge. In other words, if I have a nap with you, and you want our nap to continue, I expect you to get my blessing(in advance) to cast the Forge. Otherwise you may see my armies on your doorstep.

And typically my blessing for a Forge casting does not come cheap.:D

[Zeldor]

So you offer some protection plans maybe? :) You know, service of your mages and armies to deal with that my problem...

[Xietor]

I am on the other side of the world. And I am involved in wars of my own. Besides you hardly need my protection.

It is turn 75. You likely are ready to make a power play to end this game. And the forge is a good global to have up when you do.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... I think that wisher was probably a person worried that our game will end with reaching commander or unit limit :)

[Xietor]

Hmmm,

it looks as if Zeldor is going to bring his neighbors to their knees with Armageddon. Interesting strategy. After the game you are going to have to tell me if you thought of it, or whether your advisor did. After some reflection it is a pretty good way to bring blood hunting to a halt.

One of my Lamia Queens must of got a hit(: She was in serpent shape, but alive, no afflictions, and she held on to her clam. Good girl!

Council of Marignon your "sneak" attack was anticipated. Thanks for all the items!
That is 6 banelords killed in the past 2 turns, with full items, and a few mages and a ton of devils. Because your were an honorable foe, Ruin will accept your surrender whenever you accept the inevitable.

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

Why are you always trying to blame Agartha? :) After the 2nd Armageddon we cannot find our Propaganda Minister, so some low-level Necromancer will have to do his duties for now. He said smth about "landscape in neighbouring kingdoms looks like painted by Picasso", whatever that means. Oh, and I think I need to use my S gems that turn to deal with one thief. I wonder what he was thinking?

P.S. Armageddon seems to have some interesting uses in warfare too.

P.P.S. I barely managed to get that turn in, huh, busy week.

[Xietor]

I am not trying to blame LA Agartha. It is you. No one else would cast back to back Armageddons. And few would have the resources. You likely can cast one per turn.

I thought it may have been MA Arcos. who went AI, but Baalz is cleared. No one else would benefit from the spell. While I am at war with a blood nation, I do not need Armageddon to finish him(and no race whose capital only mages have 8 hps is going to cast it).

Besides, there is no use to deny it. With the score graphs and the forge up and all the artifacts, you could hardly get in the cross hairs any more than you already are by casting Armeggdon.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, whoever IS doing the Armageddons, please cast another this turn. I am eager to see what happens when 2 go off at the same time (if units get hurt, and don't regain their HP of course, then the second goes off.....).

I was surprised I managed to stale the last turn, but I was kind of just waiting on the research for the "See You In Hell" project.

[Meglobob]

I told you it was the end of the world, 900+ slaves died in a most terrible fashion! How could you!?!

[Xietor]

I did get a pm about why i did not ban the spell.

To be honest I did ban most of the "destroy the world spells like BOT, Utterdark, and one insanely overpowered spell, Arcane Nexus, as well as Astral Corruption(I had to penalize blood if I take away Arcane Nexus).

But I did forget about Illwinter. and likely some other national globals that also destroy the world.

But clams have been nerfed pretty hard. And without the Forge hammer, you pay a pretty hefty price for one. Unless you have one of the Worthy Heroes or a Pretender that has a forge bonus and you empowered him to have n and w paths.

And with very hard research, Wish did not occur early in the game. On turn 75 LA Agartha( I am assuming) who had a huge research lead the whole game and passive neighbors, was able to start cashing in on having all of the const 8 artifacts and a huge land area.

And games do have to end sometime. Unlike Burden of Time which is ridiculously easy to cast early in the game, Wishing for Armageddon on a very hard research setting with the clam super nerf is not easy to do. The game ideally should end by turn 100. If wishing for armageddons brings the end about quicker than seraphs, then I see nothing
broken about it.

[JimMorrison]

Well, my only complaint about Armageddon, is that it fails 2 of the benchmarks of "balance" -

Can it be countered? No, there is no way to stop someone from casting it (at least globals can theoretically be blocked by filling the 5 slots first).

Can you recover from it? No, while you may be prepared to initiate a "no cash" strategy, there is no way to ever recover the population, or the income loss.


I think it's more of an issue in MP, even in an "epic scope" game like Kingmaker, because of the vast scale involved. Basically the ultimate problem being that so many people who are severely affected, have little chance to return the favor to the perpetrator. And as far as Helheim goes, for example, it'll be a cold day in hell before the capital fortress falls, so even withe the juggernaut of LA Agartha knocking on my door, they will be unable to stop the wholesale destruction that the next several months will visit upon this world.

Though, I guess you could say it's kind of poetic, that this epic struggle of would-be gods, ends in the savage annihilation of the mortals who inhabit this world.

[Zeldor]

JimMorrison:

So you are a scorches earth fan? Interesting :)
And you would be surprised how fast a single fort can go down. But should I? :)

Xietor:

While being one of the suspects, I would not protest if there was a new rule introduced now that would ban Armageddon wishing [llamabeast can always check who did it].

[Zeldor]

Oh, and there must be something really bad coming, my tartarians say "All will end" and "All will be ashes".

[Xietor]

Despite making some mistakes in game administering this game, this is not my first rodeo(believe it or not). And one thing I learned long ago is never change the rules after the game has started. So for better or worse, you will be able to keep wishing for Armageddon Zeldor. But it is harder when your key artifacts are being wished away from you to decide what to wish for, isn't it?:D:D

[Zeldor]

I'd rather wish for gold in your place :)

[DrPraetorious]

Save up your pearls, and cast armageddon five times in one turn. That would get you some respect.

[JimMorrison]

JimMorrison:

So you are a scorches earth fan? Interesting :)
And you would be surprised how fast a single fort can go down. But should I? :)

Xietor:

While being one of the suspects, I would not protest if there was a new rule introduced now that would ban Armageddon wishing [llamabeast can always check who did it].

Oh I understand that Earth mages can breach walls in short enough order from afar. ;) But the forces that are now sitting int he fortress are..... beyond imagination! :shock:

And I'm not so big on Scorched Earth, really. But as I said earlier, because of the unfounded finger-pointing, and the ridiculously unfair double-teaming that had been dropped on my head - I'm going to take it all with me. :mad:

DrP - that's a brilliant idea..... if only I had 5 S9 mages, I'd do that next turn. :p

[Zeldor]

What unfair? That game is about diplomacy. If you want unfair check eastern continent :)

If you have some things to offer, we could make some bet about how many turns you can keep walls up in your cap :)

[Xietor]

In any event Hadrian is now game admin. so any "official requests" to ban spells should be made to him. My opinion is just that of one of the surviving players.


My vote would be "no" to banning Armageddon on turn 76. Someone should have brought it up during the month we had discussing the game before it actually got underway. Though at this rate I am not going to have any s mages left(:

[JimMorrison]

Like I said, sir, I know how Crumble works. My assertion was that once the walls are down, you might be shocked at what you find waiting for you.

It's all rather silly, really. With the Death2 Dominion, you'd almost think this is what FoodStamp had planned all along, to mass up mages, then Armageddon the world away after switching to a summoned recruitment schedule. Would almost think that, but he had recently gone big into Blood before handing it off, and that's just counter-productive. Also counter-intuitive with Death2, but oh well. I didn't make this world, I'm just here to unmake it. :p

[Zeldor]

Your army there doesn't look really scary :) IF you already planned to lose the war you are now going to make sure my other neighbours cannot win with me later? :)

I doubt you can put in your cap army being able to withstand a good attack.

[Meglobob]

Yes you can't ban spells once the game is being played. Obviously whomever is casting armageddon has probably been planning it for a while. So it would be unfair to change now.

It will be interesting to see if we have 0 or 1 or 2 armageddons next turn.

Let me guess, La Agartha's artifact to go, 'puff' was the chalice?

Last megagame, I ran Ea Oceania for a while for Amazhair and spent most of my time wishing for chalice and La Rlyeh wished for it right back. I would have prefered to wish Seraph but Amazhair banned me from doing so! It was very amusing because while I was in charge of Ea Oceania, Xieter kept going on and on about the chalice (he was playing Ma Ctis and had aload of afflicted Tarts), which I was sitting on, again I was banned from saying anything or sharing.

Heh, if Evilhomer had cast some armageddons we would have all been able to complete megagame one!

[Foodstamp]

Like I said, sir, I know how Crumble works. My assertion was that once the walls are down, you might be shocked at what you find waiting for you.

It's all rather silly, really. With the Death2 Dominion, you'd almost think this is what FoodStamp had planned all along, to mass up mages, then Armageddon the world away after switching to a summoned recruitment schedule. Would almost think that, but he had recently gone big into Blood before handing it off, and that's just counter-productive. Also counter-intuitive with Death2, but oh well. I didn't make this world, I'm just here to unmake it. :p

I offered you to PM me if you had any questions about diplomacy or what I was planning. I felt like I left you with one of the more powerful nations in the game at the time I handed it off. I apologize if you feel slighted or if you feel like I played the position badly and then gave it to you, making it difficult for you to turn things around and salvage it.

[JimMorrison]

I offered you to PM me if you had any questions about diplomacy or what I was planning. I felt like I left you with one of the more powerful nations in the game at the time I handed it off. I apologize if you feel slighted or if you feel like I played the position badly and then gave it to you, making it difficult for you to turn things around and salvage it.

Well, what I think was that you had a strategy and build that weren't really conducive to any form of turtling. Then I think that after the early game, you started to get distracted and started to lose interest in the game, and spent too long not expanding. So when I took over, there was a ton of interesting stuff all strewn around - and since I didn't expect you to walk me through why each particular province had the mages/thugs that were in it, I just had to sort of start figuring it out myself. It's just the size of the empire, the stage of the game, and the fact that you hadn't been giving it as much time as it needed (was it 3-4 stales before I took over?). So it was sort of a big undertaking to start arranging things in a way that made good sense to me.

Believe me, I am not sugar coating anything when I say this is by far not the worst sub position I stepped into, unless I weight it very heavily for timing, because honestly it really started sucking when the nation with far and away the strongest SCs in the game, decided to bring one of the best raiding nations along with him to trounce me - AND no one nearby wanted to join in and keep Zeldor from winning. < shrug >

I will agree on one thing Zeldor, you are indeed a shrewd diplomat, and I didn't put nearly the time into relations with my new neighbors that I should have.

[Amhazair]

Last megagame, I ran Ea Oceania for a while for Amazhair and spent most of my time wishing for chalice and La Rlyeh wished for it right back. I would have prefered to wish Seraph but Amazhair banned me from doing so!
I did??? I can't remember that at all. I wonder what I was thinking at the time. :)

[Xietor]

In these mp games diplomacy is likely more important than battle tactics. Being able to kick butt is a very good thing, but being a feared player also tends to make you end up on the wrong side of 2 v 1 wars. And if there is no time limit or victory condition, then you may have all the time in the world to overcome a series of 2 v 1 wars and conquer the world.

However, in a game like Kingmaker, where there is a race of sorts to 15 capitals, and the winning players may never have any contact on a 900 province map with several of the other major players, then diplomacy is evn more important.

If Zeldor wins, it will be because his neighbors let him. They stayed their hands while he researched in the early game. And they stayed their hands after he got all the const. 8 artifacts. That is pretty good diplomacy.

Meanwhile in the East, many veteran players are beating each other up. And though there will finally be a major player eliminated soon(LA Marignon), it took far too long for the number of vps he had.

For my own part I saw early on LA Agartha's research and was willing to gate an army across the world to fight him in a suicidal war, but his neighbors refused to give me a friendly province to take and build a lab in from which to launch an invasion. And then when I finally had the means to launch a cross world attack without any cooperation from Zeldor's neighbors, Bandar Log and LA Marignon decide my 3 VPs would be easy to add to their own.

Having steamrolled EA ulm and Jomon, I guess they thought Ruin would roll over with no resistance as well. And that invasion put an end to Ruin's planned transworld invasion of LA Agartha. Fear not Zeldor, my resources are now depleted to the point that any such invasion would be futile, plus you are much stronger now then when i planned to attack you.

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

It is always neighbours fault. Same will be true if Lanka, Niefel or Caelum wins. It is especially true about Niefel - the only one remaining uber power nation in the game. You'd expect his neighbours to be aware that Niefelheim is overpowered nation that needs a group attack. But getting back to me - yeah, I was really surprised that I managed to get ahead in research, consideering my Drain 2 scales.

[Zeldor]

The Great Auction of LA Agartha!

We are pleased to announce that our last minister of finances died in some nasty earthquake and that newly appointed minister (famous for his "All will end" speeches) supports privatization efforts. So he decided to put couple of our treasures on sale, highest bidder takes the item! [of course if minimum price is reached]

Following artifacts are now on sale:
- Orb of Atlantis
- Soulstone of Wolves
- Boots of Calius the Druid
- Robe of Calius the Druid
- Sword of Many Colours
- Alchemist's Stone
- Percival the Pocket Knight!

[DonCorazon]

Sounds more like a garage sale of your junk. I open the bidding on Percival the Pocket Knight at 1 gold. Do I hear 2? 2? 2? Going going gone! Sold for 1 to the big chunk of rock in the back corner.

[Hadrian_II]

Well, the soulstone of wolves gives you a huge amount of chaff, and the boots of calius have the highest reinvigoration in the game. If kalilasa would not be death, i might bid on them. :D

[JimMorrison]

Xietor:

It is always neighbours fault. Same will be true if Lanka, Niefel or Caelum wins. It is especially true about Niefel - the only one remaining uber power nation in the game. You'd expect his neighbours to be aware that Niefelheim is overpowered nation that needs a group attack. But getting back to me - yeah, I was really surprised that I managed to get ahead in research, consideering my Drain 2 scales.

Kind of ironic, as I tried to get help with Niefelheim months ago, as well.

No one wants to fight DrP or Zeldor. :p

[Xietor]

Niefelheim's path to 15 capitals is rough. Where are they to come from? Formoria has 2 but has not seen war since turn 25 or so. one can only imagine the resources they have at their disposal.

LA Man? Bandar Log? LA Caelum? LA Arcos? Utgard? Niefelheim is a powerful race but they are surrounded by fairly tough nations. And I think Dr P still needs quite a few capitals to reach 15.

If la agartha was in the East, i think his path to victory would have been more difficult. shrug. But blame the mapmaker for not putting the east/west wraparound in.


:):):)

I do not know why Reay would not give me a province from which to launch my attack from. Suicidal yes. But it would have been fun. Other guilty parties, Twan, Lanka, Hadrian, and Foodstamp. All were contacted very early on and none would give me a toehold in their lands from which to launch my kamikaze invasion(: Where is the trust?

[Zeldor]

You should have asked me! I could sell you something! It was quite a boring time for me, so some visitors could be fun. And your neighbours in the east would be very happy too :)

[JimMorrison]

You should have asked me! I could sell you something! It was quite a boring time for me, so some visitors could be fun. And your neighbours in the east would be very happy too :)

Private Message from Zeldor:

Xietor has just procured a province from me to make a distant outpost. He doesn't realize that I know its purpose is as a beachhead to launch an attack on me. As his neighbor, I am willing to inform you when his forces arrive, and you can be sure that his heartland will be quite poorly defended. Cheers!


Oh war, wicked war.

[Zeldor]

LA Agartha has some W gems to exchange for E,N,D or S [we can negotiate ratio, especially with bigger exchanges].

[Xietor]

I have really achieved the goals I had when I began Kingmaker. In fact I never really intended to make it to the late game. But my competitive juices got flowing and I got into some wars.

But it is now late game, and I am ready for a break, not just from Kingmaker, but from mp in general. I am entertaining offers for a perm. sub for LA Arcos. It will be my hope that my current diplomatic ties are honored.

The position is not a winning one, and was never really intended to be a winning one, but it is a strong position, and could play a part in who does win(maybe).

There is a s8 seraph to play with, affliction free tartarian cyclops, liches, Immortal Pretender, a couple of sneaky good constr 8 artifacts, Master Enslave, Astral travel, Wish,
Evoc 9, etc.

[Xietor]

In a war that means little in the Bigger Picture, Zenerio, the Sleeper who has been a thorn in the Council of Marignon's side the entire war, with several kills to his credit, including 3 angels, led a brave squad of mostly castle bought troops and mages against a Great Demonic Horde.

Hopelessly outnumbered(yet again), Zenerio, displaying rare attributes of leadership, rallied his skittish elephants, hoplites, slingers, and Agema horsemen, and assorted other troops, to another victory.

Ruin had generously offered the Council of Marignon peace, with only s small forts(none capitals) as war reparations. When his merciful offer was refused, he had no choice but to order the shorthanded Zenerio to attempt to collect war damages by force of arms.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/6d657f6295f5bf9284c0f9645b8f60122g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=2vhw1kmmew0&thumb=5)


When the fighting was over, Zenerio reported that a Troll King and Fallen Angel had decided to switch sides and join him in a holy way against their former masters!

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

I don't want to spoil your fun, but LA Mari staled last turn :)

But at least your battles seem to be more interesting than mine [old age is probably the biggest killer for Agarthan people].

[Xietor]

It was still a great victory for the Sleeper!

[Xietor]

The Middle Era continues to fade. MA Ctis is gone(ai).

MA Agartha, MA Bandar Log, and MA Marignon remain, and all are in dire straits.

Thanks for playing MA Ctis Digress!

Of the Lizards, only EA Ctis still clings to life.

LA Agartha now has the Forge and Gift of Health up. Any Nation that has any remaining hopes of winning best look West-though it may be too late already.

[Zeldor]

Chalice is now officially for sale. Taken back from pesky robber [that must be a bit unaware who is annihilating his mages with ARmageddon] is now ready to be transferred into good hands [that stealer is free to participate in the auction too :)].

[JimMorrison]

That picture is sweet, the fireball being launched looks like someone holding a giant lance of fire or some such.


And yeah, too bad I am not relying on any artifacts to continue my scouring of life from this war-torn world. I did just waste ~230 Death gems this last turn though, trying to get a Foul Vapors into that open global slot. ;)

[Tichy]

clingclingclingcling

[Xietor]

I do not think you improved Helheim's chances with the Armageddons. Likely your best chance of being bailed out(or being avenged) were by Lanka and EA Mictlan, both blood nations.

But the chain Armageddon strategy is one I have not seen before. And it is interesting to see it used in a game where clams were nerfed so heavily and in the 70's. But Helheim and LA Agartha were not drained by any major wars. Just like Formoria. Some nations likely have vast stores of resources because they were allowed to avoid serious war for far too long.

LA Agartha had the inside track to winning anyway. The Armageddons just hastened the pace a bit.

[JimMorrison]

I do not think you improved Helheim's chances with the Armageddons. Likely your best chance of being bailed out(or being avenged) were by Lanka and EA Mictlan, both blood nations.

I can only assure you, I sought the assistance of the appropriate parties, before declaring the life of the world forfeit. :p

Zeldor is an extremely skillful diplomat, and so I had 2 reasons for the Armageddons (though I seriously did NOT cast the first 2): first, to punish the people who blamed me offhand, but second, to hasten the game. I reasoned that whether the depopulation of the world clinches LA Agartha's victory, or it allows someone else an opening to get at them - I will be happy, whatever the outcome.

I just think it's funny, that I turtled too long as Gath, and then I subbed in for someone who had a much more aggressive, and impressive start - but then had turtled for too long. :p

I have an interesting concept for the next mega-game. This comment is just a teaser, I'm not going to explain it yet. ;)

[Meglobob]

I do not think you improved Helheim's chances with the Armageddons. Likely your best chance of being bailed out(or being avenged) were by Lanka and EA Mictlan, both blood nations.

I can only assure you, I sought the assistance of the appropriate parties, before declaring the life of the world forfeit. :p

Ea Mictlan was completely up for a joint attack on La Agartha by myself, Helheim and Lanka. La Agartha had recently upset me with his diplomacy.

The reason it did not happen was Lanka, who for his own reasons, refused to join in. I have had no chance to win for a long time so was completely willing to attack La Agartha and help Lanka to win, fellow blood nation and all, plus has kept his treaties meticulously.

Without Lanka joining in, a attack by just me and helheim was pointless. So we abandoned the idea and now just amuse ourselves with random destruction until a god is declared King of Kingmaker.

I think Agartha/Lanka are just having a race to the 15 capitals with an agreement not to attack each another. So they will seek to take the capitals of any, 'weak' nation around them.

The situation to me looks like only La Agartha, La Caelum, Ea Lanka and Ea Niefelheim can win now, barring any surprises.

[Xietor]

On turn 78 Xietor waves goodbye to Kingmaker. Many hours were spent on trying to make the game a fun adventure for the participants. I want to thank Llamabeast for his tireless work and his arena idea, as well as Dr P for his map contributions. Dr. P, Twan, and Llamabeast also played large parts in getting the Kingmaker mod put together.

My sub has a nation with 63 provinces, good research, and a decent position to play Kingmaker should he choose to do so. He may just want to astral travel around and cast master enslave on various armies and have some fun. who knows!

Good luck to the winner!

[Falkor]

I do not think you improved Helheim's chances with the Armageddons. Likely your best chance of being bailed out(or being avenged) were by Lanka and EA Mictlan, both blood nations.

I can only assure you, I sought the assistance of the appropriate parties, before declaring the life of the world forfeit. :p

Ea Mictlan was completely up for a joint attack on La Agartha by myself, Helheim and Lanka. La Agartha had recently upset me with his diplomacy.

The reason it did not happen was Lanka, who for his own reasons, refused to join in. I have had no chance to win for a long time so was completely willing to attack La Agartha and help Lanka to win, fellow blood nation and all, plus has kept his treaties meticulously. (...)

Yes, I rejected two generous offers from Helheim and EA Mictlan.
Well, I don't feel good with it. Especially now, seeing LA Agartha profiting so much from the Armageddon mess (regardless of the caster).
Nevertheless, Lanka will taste the blood of Agartha soon or Later. :evil:

[Falkor]

Xietor, thanks for the work you've done by starting and moderating this game. :)

_

[Xietor]

Hadrian now knows the identity of my sub, and the email has been changed. So I am officially out of Kingmaker. I will leave it to my sub to post his identity, and state his diplomatic intentions. He has been informed as to my current diplomatic situation, which of course a permanent sub is free to ignore.

Without revealing his identity, I will say my sub is an extremely good player, and would not take a backseat to anyone.

/cheers.

[Reay]

Xietor, thanks to for helping create this game. It has been fun so far.

It is always entertaining playing with you ;) so I hope to see you again in MP.

[Micah]

He has been informed as to my current diplomatic situation, which of course a permanent sub is free to ignore.

Without revealing his identity...


Where the hell did the idea that subs have a get-out-of-diplo-free card come from? Obviously there's no binding diplomacy in nearly all games, but within the normal framework of honor-based and word-of-mouth Dominions diplomacy repercussions I certainly don't see how changing a player changes diplomacy any faster than the original player could (don't like a NAP as a sub? Fine, give warning, not a big deal...)

Also, the idea that a sub gets to be anonymous when every other player in the game is not strikes me as completely ridiculous.

Anyhow, I'm (thankfully) not in this game, but I've been following it since I subbed a bit for the big Z, and I was taken aback enough at some of the assumptions here to want to chime in, FWIW.

[Xietor]

Permanent subs are never bound by the departing player's diplomatic arrangements. I encouraged my sub to honor my treaties, but you cannot bind a permanent sub to past treaties. A temporary sub IS expected to honor all treaties of the player for whom he is subbing.

That has been the rule in both Big Games, including Velusions, and every other mp game I have played in. And it makes sense.

My sub is not unknown. He is very well known on the forums. The game admin, hadrian, knows who he is. I choose not to announce who my sub is. But that does not mean it is a secret. Or it is a mystery. I am sure he will announce himself, either on this thread or in game. That is his prerogative.

I posted for a sub and no one claimed the spot for several days. But it was open to the first player who claimed it, including you Micah. It is my hope that my treaties are honored. But the fact of the matter is I do not have many.

A 6 turn nap with formoria, 6 turn nap with la caelum, and I am at war with la marignon and Bandar Log. That is the extent of my treaties. So there is not a lot to honor in any event. I have no treaty with niefelheim or LA agartha, the 2 frontrunners.

I do have good relations with several nations, but no formal treaty, and I passed that information along to my sub.

[Micah]

Permanent subs are never bound by the departing player's diplomatic arrangements. I encouraged my sub to honor my treaties, but you cannot bind a permanent sub to past treaties.

That has been the rule in both Big Games, including Velusions, and every other mp game I have played in. And it makes sense.

My sub is not unknown. He is very well known on the forums. The game admin, hadrian, knows who he is. I choose not to announce who my sub is. But that does not mean it is a secret. Or it is a mystery. I am sure he will announce himself, either on this thread or in game. That is his prerogative.

Quote was snipped as appropriate.

I searched the rules post and the rest of the top 50 posts for the game and found no mention of this perm-sub "rule" that you speak about. Did I miss it? I don't see why you can't bind a sub to old treaties, it's a game choice like every other choice. Your sub is bound by your previous decisions in how to purchase troops, spend gems, site search, research, and every other aspect of the game, why should diplomacy be any different?

IMO it is most certainly NOT a player's prerogative to play by different rules than everyone else in the game, in this case by not disclosing his/her identity when the rest of the game participants have, and an option not to was not readily given.

[DonCorazon]

X - "sunlight is the best disinfectant; electric light the best policeman"

[Xietor]

Micah, I am not sure where you are headed with this? The perm sub/temp sub is not a "rule." And it is not my intent to argue about a game I am no longer a part of. This debate may be one more appropriate for the general thread.

But to try and choose my words precisely, and I have been playing mp dominions for years, just not on this forum(here only since Katrina). So this is just my understanding of things. It is not a set rule. Certainly not a game rule.

1. Diplomacy/treaties Players are free to break ignore naps anytime they want. KO has said he sees nothing wrong with this. Personally I have never broken a treaty. But that is just me. But Diplomacy/treaties/naps are not set rules. There is no penalty for breaking them in any game I know of. Your reputation may take a nosedive if you get known as a person who breaks treaties. The "penalty" for being a treaty breaker is you may find it difficult in future games to get a treaty with anyone if no one trusts your word.

2. Temp. Subs-my understanding is a temp sub is not free to break a player's treaties. he must obey the player's wishes as he is just standing in for the player, who will be returning to take the reins of his empire after a break. I have seen game administers, when they are forced to find subs, tell the temp sub to obey the treaties of the player.

3. Permanent sub. A permanent sub is taking a position over from a fresh perspective.
He does not inherit the treaties of the other players. In kingmaker I had a 6 turn nap with lolomo who plays la caelum. Lolomo may trust me, but he may not trust the perm sub as far as he can throw him. So lolomo's nap is personal to me, not my nation.

The same cuts both ways. The perm sub may not trust a player that i trust. And he may not want to be bound by a 6 turn nap when he feels he will be attacked at any time by the other player.

Therefore in every mp game I have been in, the 1st thing a perm sub does is reaffirm existing treaties of the former player, or reject them.

That is my understanding of the situation. But if you start a thread on the meaning of a 3 turn nap, you will quickly see it means 100 different things to different players. So I likely should not have assumed my viewpoint on permanent subs was a universally accepted one. But I have never before heard it questioned.

As to the identity of my sub, it is not a secret, and should not be a secret. On that I agree. But I just handed off the position a few hours ago, and I see no reason to steal my sub's thunder. If for some reason he does not announce himself by tomorrow, I will post his name..

At the moment the sub is likely downloading a map, a mod, and trying to read this long thread, and look at a very complicated position. In short I bet he has no clue what he wants to do yet. If anyone with whom I have a treaty wants to know who my sub is, they can pm me and i will tell you.

[Lingchih]

I think that, should we make it a new rule, that, for new perm subs, the new sub has one turn under the old treaties. All treaties have to be re-negotiated in that turn. If they are not re-negotiated, they are void.

I've not been in this game for a long time, but I follow the thread.

Oh, and Xietor, all this stuff about keeping your sub secret is just goofy. My lord man, just tell us who the sub is.

[DrPraetorious]

The following rules apply:
1) *Temp* subs are expected to obey the intentions of the player for whom they are subbing. This is explicitly stated for some games, I believe Xietor mentioned it at some point. This would include treaties, unless the original player wants those broken/ignored...

2) I'll take Micah's word that no rules were specified for permanent subs. Therefore, they can do whatever they want.

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

You seem to have really strange idea for some basic MP rules. And it's even stranger considering your MP experience. I think that it is absolutely common, normal and expected that perm-sub takes over a nation with all good and bad things coming from it. So perm sub should honor all NAPs and alliances. If he does not it is almost as he broke them. Of course that is jut a rule of honor, but same applies to all other diplomatic agreements here. The fact that neighbours may be ready for the possibility of new owner picking new path does not mean that he can just come and launch an invasion on an old ally of a previous player.

[Micah]

I posted because I felt that your characterization of the situation was, shall we say, oversimplified and subject to misinterpretation. "Where I was going with it" was making an attempt to clear things up, since you were presenting things as fact or consensus that I pretty strongly disagree with, and I didn't want other people to read it and assume that everyone was in agreement with how things work.

Your latest post makes a whole lot more sense to me than the one I initially replied to. You're now making reasonable arguments for why things should change, as opposed to just saying "it's the rule."

I still disagree with your conclusion, as well as the assertion that treaties are not inherited, but I can at least see where you're coming from.

IMO, if a player doesn't trust your sub (or the sub doesn't trust the player) he is, of course, free to break the treaty and claim extenuating circumstances. It's up to the other players to decide how much tarnish that would put on his reputation. But I think it would be pretty clearly a flat-out violation of a treaty if he just attacked with no warning whatsoever, or used the sub as an excuse to duck out of a NAP that had been given notice on and still had multiple turns left until hostilities commenced just to get an advantage over the former ally. That was the conclusion I got from your initial characterization of what happens when a sub takes over. Treaty-breaking is, of course, an option with non-binding diplomacy regardless, but I don't see why the sub should be able to get out of the political fallout from such a move just based on being a sub.

Reaffirming treaties is smart, but every time I've done it I assumed that it was in relation to the ongoing portion of the treaty, not the static part...so if my 3-turn warning NAP partner subbed out I would be confirming that the sub didn't want to give notice on the treaty, not that he could ignore the whole thing.

And yes, you're right about not needing to immediately disclose who the sub is, but again, I feel that the way you posted about it initially was subject to misinterpretation for long-term plans to do so.

[Xietor]

As I said Zeldor my understanding of the custom comes from the games and players in the games in which i have participated.

In fact, in this game, you have two very experienced players, K and Baalz, who took over positions as perm. subs. K for sure felt he was not bound by my nap with the former player. And I am not sure how Baalz approached his role when he took over MA Arcos.

But it is hard enough to get perm subs as it is, and it may be harder to get them if they cannot play the race as they see fit. While I am not motivated enough to read Perpetuality thread, I think that was Velusion's logic. In Fallacy I also had to reconfirm my treaties with the players that took over MA Ctis. In any event, it is not something I made up out of thin air.

It is just something that has been a part of my gaming experience. Other players may well have had different gaming experiences. From Zeldor's perspective, it really is not relevant as I had no treaty with him anyway.

And I certainly did not get a sub because I wanted LA Arcos to attack either of the nations with whom i had naps, la caelum or formoria. In fact it is my strong hope my sub would see that as a futile course of action if he wishes to influence the outcome of the game. Though my sub is a very strong willed person, and my advice will likely be secondary to his own assessments.

[Rathar]

As a player not in the game and thus hopefully not biased it has been my experience in the moderate amount of MP games I've had that new players are treated with a clean slate. All bets are off, etc etc.

I have seen one turn grace periods for new players to get their feet wet pretty commonly but I have never heard anyone suggest in any game (and I read a LOT of games even if I am not in them) or forum topic that treaties mandatorily carry over from player to player. For subs, yes of course but new players, never.

On the other hand I have seen many many games where the new player is treated as a completely different person and all treaties and such became null and void.

Shrug, my .02 cents

[Foodstamp]

To Jim.

Turtles can poke their heads out.

You were given one of the largest armies in the game that had back to back wars with two other nations right before you subbed.

My "turtling" had Helheim within the top 5 in nearly every stat including provinces and gem income when you hit the scene. Just because I had a large numbers of fortresses doesn't mean I did not play aggressive as well; I would have had to play aggressive to lead in provinces for a hefty chunk of the game and still be within the top five for provinces when you took over.

I am sorry that you seem so unhappy with what you were stuck with, but Helheim hardly had 0 chance of winning when you got it. I won't go into details because I don't want to give away specifics of your position, but you had some pretty powerful options no matter which way you planned to go.

[JimMorrison]

...The "penalty" for being a treaty breaker is you may find it difficult in future games to get a treaty with anyone if no one trusts your word...


Thus, the only part that struck me as really odd about your announcement, was your point on this odd secrecy. Yes, the community is reputation based - as long as we know who it is that is doing what to whom.


And Foodstamp, I'm not trying to badmouth you, or say you are a bad player. ;) I'm sure that for most people, taking on a nation of the size that Helheim was, at this stage of the game, is a huge undertaking. I'm sure that most of the things you had set up, made some sense, or had some purpose. Unfortunately, to me, a lot of that purpose was not visible, and it was a daunting task trying to organize things to my own liking, and move some commanders around a bit. My main problem with the position really, was the diplomatic dead-end that resulted from an allied EA Tir + MA Agartha + LA Agartha to the north. Once I had sniffed that out, I began to move forces south to invade Marignon, and then I had war declared on me by Numero Uno. Helheim had an incredible gem income, some awesome indie mages, and a burgeoning Blood economy (that I nearly doubled in scope, for a brief couple of turns) - and was certainly not a lemon. But it was more of a blitzing build, and I do feel that (likely because you were starting to lose interest in the game, not because of any deficiency on your part) you rested for too long, and that while there were tools available to cash in on that time spent, the 1-2 blow of the 2v1 war declaration, and then the first Armageddon totally tanking the entire economy, says to me that the nation just waited too long to get growing again. You did awesomely though, I for one am jealous by your early-mid game performance in this game.

[Zeldor]

Games simply don't state obvious things. NAP is between nation A and B. The fact that Obama is becoming a new president does not mean that all previous pacts that Bush signed are no longer viable. Even common sense would suggest that continuation of all previous agreement is obvious. If new players wants to change relations with someone he can do so, according to rules from previous agreements [so simply wait X turns from NAPX and attack then].

[Rathar]

I personally agree with you Zeldor and wish it were that way. It's been my experience that it's rarely so however.

[DonCorazon]

it's pretty frustrating to build a strategy on an ally and then, for RL or whatever reasons, have them bail and have a new sub totally reverse course on you. It happens I know but the traditional approach I have seen is for subs to honor existing pacts for at least a few turns and then decide whether to renew or not.

[Rathar]

Traditional yes, Mandatory no.

Treaties often do get reconfirmed due to the strategic realities of a games situation but if a new player changes direction people will think it a bit cheesy but nowhere near as cheesy as if the old player broke treaties in the same manner.

I posit that this is because we expect new players to be well, different.

And yeah, man does it suck to have your "Trusted" ally go poof.

[atul]

Xietor, given that we have different view of our nations' current disposition towards each other (at war? We haven't fought a single battle in 10+ turns, the border has stayed the same! I'd call that a truce without standing treaties), I feel that your insistence on anonymous _permanent_ substitute is ridiculous. Where can I go to straighten out these misunderstood diplomacy things?

I really appreciate the effort you went through to organize and manage this game. Seriously, thanks. But this curve ball you've thrown is (again) a bit hard to swallow.

I'm with Micah and Zeldor on the sub issue. Some continuity should be expected, of course a new player is free to do what he wants but the honoring of treaties (even if it's just the cancellation period of NAPs) should be the baseline, not "get out of the jail free" card.

[DrPraetorious]

You can contact him in-game. If he decides he wants to correspond with you out of game, he'll give you an e-mail address.

[atul]

Of course I can. This situation is not the end of the world, never mind few Armageddons here and there.

Just saying, zeroing status quo, not providing means for hasty communication when there are big armies at the both sides of the border and assuming everything is as it should be is plain silly.

[Xietor]

Atul,

Give me some small credit. I did not tell frank trollman we were at war and leave it at that. I told him we were technically at war but neither side had attacked each other in a long time. My message to Frank was QUITE lengthy and detailed. Several pages long. Likely more detailed than any sub could ever want. So there was not simply a 5 sentence pm with who i was at war with and who i am not.

He was not only told I am at war with la marignon, but every type of attack LA Marignon has ever sent against me, and which are the most likely in the future. etc.

As it is a new day and since has not posted, I did give out his name. He does prefer to be contacted in game. And if he wants to contact you more quickly he can(as he did me). He likely is reading this thread, so I will tell him I bear him no ill will in disclosing his name, but agree that at this point in a game it should be done.

As a personal note, some may recall there was quite a battle in the last Big Game between Frank and myself. As I told him, that was over a year ago, and I certainly do not carry grudges from one game to the next. I would be just as happy to be allies with him in a new game as anyone else. And that certainly goes for anyone who i fought wars against in Kingmaker as well.

While I am a verbose opponent, and that takes some aback, it is not meant to be personal. And though Ruin may string the Council of Marigon up for the Buzzards to feast on in Kingmaker, Admiralzhao is considered by me to be an honorable and extremely capable Dominions player who I would ally with in a heartbeart in the next game.

Good Luck All!

[DonCorazon]

While I am a verbose opponent...

X, I hope you know that without your constant stream of veiled threats and ominous remarks, the Utgard embassy will be forced to layoff half of its staff. :)

Seriously though, thanks for putting together the game. With old enemies and old friends fading into the sunset, I hope KM ends soon. Capital count?
Utgard has 5.

[atul]

Well chalk that up as yet another misunderstanding in communications, that "I'm at war with BL and Mari" still made a stop for me. I still retain the excuse of not being a native English speaker. ;)

Edit: Bandar Log, still at two.

[Zeldor]

LA Agartha has only 6 capitals under full control, so nothing to be worried about :) I am interested in Caelum's and Niefel's count.

[LoloMo]

LA Caelum still has only 3 capitals.

[Reay]

EA Tir Na Nog still has 3 capitals.

[DrPraetorious]

EA Niefelheim has 4.

[Amhazair]

LA Agartha has only 6 capitals under full control.
I'm intrested in the use of the phrase 'full control' :D

How many more are you sieging?

[Falkor]

Lanka has 6 capitals (+ one under siege).

[Zeldor]

Amhazair:

I am not obliged to disclose that :)

[Zeldor]

I got some ugly bug, it could be called battle replay bug if the result of the battle was totally impossible to happen [even at extreme odds]. I guess we can do nothing about it though, so I will report it to llamabeast, so he can take a look and send it to Illwinter.

[DrPraetorious]

Correction: I just noticed I have *5* capitals now. My bad.

[FrankTrollman]

I have hit a bug serious enough that I am actually posting on this forum. While the first turn I performed with LA Arco went through fine and dandy with all of my orders and messages going out, the last two turns did not. Instead I got a message of:

"CD Key Violation"

with the message body of:

"Your CD key has been used on multiple installations. Your orders have not been executed."

While sort of technically true (in that I transferred Dominions completely from my desktop to my laptop when I retired my desk top two years back), that's not even relevant and shouldn't have been detected by the game. And if I happened to have the same key as another player by whatever chance, it would have flipped on the first turn, not the second.

Meaning that either the game has completely broken or someone hacked my position between me taking my first turn and me taking my second turn.

I'll turn over the position to whoever wants it, but I can make no guarantees that you will be allowed to take turns.

Needless to say, I do not check this forum on any regular basis, if you wish to contact me, do so by email.

ftrollman (at) gmail.com

-Frank

[JimMorrison]

3 things are odd about this -

First, trying to do a LAN game with the same CD key, all I got was "Stale Turn".

Second, Llamaserver doesn't show Arcos as staling.

And third, Llamaserver should post a warning stating exactly which nations submitted turns with identical CD keys - and we're not getting such a warning.....


:bug::angel::shock:

[Zeldor]

Hmm... if Xietor was playing he'd say so. Llamabeast is away, so contacting Hadrian, game admin, sounds like an only solution [and if situation needs it, I think no one will object postponing it till 7/8th, it would be just 1-2 days].

[Xietor]

I no longer get the turns, and have not submitted a turn since I got a sub.

[LoloMo]

The same thing happened to me when I subbed for a game about a month ago. First turn was ok, second or third turn there was a message about duplicate CD keys. But the succeeding turns after there were no problems. I would suggest just continuing on with it. Probably just a bug.

[K]

Frank's problem is my fault. I was living at his house when my computer blew up AND I had lost my copy of Dominions. He had it on a thumb drive so I put it back on my computer.

I forgot to put my key back into the key file. I'll replace Frank's with mine and all should return to normal.

[Xietor]

A lawyer is typically at the root of all of problems.:D

[JimMorrison]

A lawyer is typically at the root of all of problems.:D

Which came first, the problem or the lawyer? Hmmmmm. This is a troubling and complex philosophical conundrum.....

[Xietor]

Zeldor has asked me for a list of all capitals. At one point I did say I would have Llamabeast post the map file, which contains that information. Apparently he got busy around turn 40 or when ever I asked him to post it because it is still not up(according to Zeldor).


The only person with the FINAL map file is LLamabeast as he did the final tweaks to the map AND he incorporated my own changes I made after the restart, such as a special start for Lanka.

I do have a list of 59 capitals, but it is obviously not complete. And I do not want to post an incomplete list. And I may even have changed a couple of starting provinces on my list to make room to add more starting provinces which i did after the restart.

I will email llamabeast and ask that he post the map file.

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[Xietor]

Any news?

[Zeldor]

Only bad news, so I'm not writing anything :)


P.S. How are we going with holiday hosting schedule?

[Xietor]

Score graphs show LA Agartha with 176 provinces, nearly 100 more than his socalled rival ea niefelheim. What bad news could there possibly be? Was one of your globals dispelled?

As an aside I am happy to see my capable sub has finished mopping up LA Marignon. Ruin's empire has expanded by 9 provinces since my departure. Good job Frank.

[Falkor]

P.S. How are we going with holiday hosting schedule?


Yeah, we need more time. Christmas, New Year, Grandma's visit, all the preparations etc.
Here is my proposal:

today's hosting - 21.12
next one - 28.12
another one - 04.01
back to 3 days interval
:)

[Zeldor]

I think we should just turn off timer after that turn and put it back on 2nd January, leaving just quickhost on between. One week of break will surely do good for everyone.

Xietor:

Evil Niefel took over my Forge :(

[Hadrian_II]

i postponed the next turn for 4 days, if you need more delays please inform me

[rdonj]

This thread is so much quieter without Xietor riling everyone up :(

[Lingchih]

This thread is so much quieter without Xietor riling everyone up :(

Heh. All threads are much quieter without Xietor :)

[Reay]

Even when he is no longer playing in the game any more he still posts the most. :)

[Hadrian_II]

as only half the players have sent their turns, i postpone another 48 hours.

[Zeldor]

Llamaserver is down and not accepting turns, so thanks for postpone. I am going out and I have no idea if turns will be accepted when server goes up.

[DrPraetorious]

I was about to do mine and send it in, but am very glad for the additional delay.

[llamabeast]

LlamaServer broken? I don't think it is, is it? Actually I'm fairly sure it's fine.

[Zeldor]

Huh, why the next postpone? I don't think that those that didn't play their turn would do it otherwise.

[DrPraetorious]

Was that another postpone or did the server just fail to turn over?

I would propose raising the warning interval from 8 hrs to 12 hrs, which is what Preponderance is using.

[Hadrian_II]

I just checked shortly before hosting and saw that LA Agartha was still missing, so i posphoned a bit more. But as LA Agartha is now whining for hosting, i made it host. (As the only other bigger Nation La Man has staled twice in the last 3 turns, i assume he does not mind)

I also increased the warning to 12 hours

[Zeldor]

I am not whining :) Simply asking. I had my turn submitted just few mins before hosting, forgot about it earlier.

[DrPraetorious]

I propose that we scale back the turn and force Zeldor to stale :).

Seriously - I have to assume that Zeldor is now sieging enough castles to win the game. I just lost a massive army failing to conquer Bandar Log - can we get enough forces together to hold him out of them all?

[Zeldor]

Am I? I am simply making sure someone else does not win faster, so I have time to do my job :)

And I agree - your army on BL was impressive. It's hard to believe you lost with that.

[LoloMo]

Yep, Zeldor is sieging two of my castles now.

[LoloMo]

Can I ask for a delay for this game? It looks like most people haven't come back from the holidays yet, and we want to make sure that Zeldor at least breaks a little sweat when he wins next turn :D

[Hadrian_II]

posphoned for 1 day, protests and queries for further delay please per PM

[Zeldor]

Thanks, I am happy for 1 more day too :)

P.S. It's a bit sad that there are no visible VPs, it would be more fair.

[Zeldor]

Powers of the universe did sire a son...
He was baptized by fire, water, earth, and sky...
From darkness, he rose up in triumph
To ascend the throne of light,
And he alone shall ever be known
As the King of Kings...

I oficially announce that I managed to conquer enough VPs to win the game. All hail LA Agartha!

I have following VPs [so llamabeast can check it, or Hadrian]: [sorted by conquer time]
01. LA Agartha [556]
02. MA Caelum [256]
03. EA Caelum [641]
04. MA Atlantis [779]
05. MA Ashdod [743]
06. EA Yomi [792]
07. EA T'ien Ch'i [96]
08. EA Marverni [367]
09. LA Pangea [866]
10. MA ARcoscephale [481]
11. LA Patala [425]
12. EA Atlantis [824]
13. MA R'lyeh [748]
14. EA C'tis [549]
15. LA Marignon [543]
16. MA Ermor [466]

I had 11 VPs last turn, I teleported on 8 capitals and got 5 of them that turn. Should have got 1 more, but those tarts love to go mad.

I will attach my turn file soon, when it's all confirmed :)

Thanks everyone! :)

[DonCorazon]

Congratulations Zeldor! I guess Kauthauga (the Utgardian monolith) really was just a big rock. Our religious scholars will look into this, but in the meantime, all hail the king!

[JimMorrison]

Thank god, and GG Zeldor! <3

[Tichy]

I made it to the end! Well, almost...went AI this turn...

Congrats Zeldor!

[DrPraetorious]

Indeed, good job. You certainly earned it.

[Redeyes]

It would be interesting to see the scoreboards for this game, or if someone shared their analysis of why the game went as it did.

Winning against 58 other players can't be a small feat, be it one performed by the winner or his kingmakers ;)

[Zeldor]

I am surely going to write some AAR. But it will take some time to make screenshots, look at old turns etc. I can also pack all my turns files, if it can be done easily, so everybody could take a look.

General history of my nation:
- I got good borders through diplomacy, about 25 provs without fighting
- I had early fights with MA Atlantis, let's call it a draw
- I got enough peace to get really good gem income and get a lead with research, even with Drain 2
- my first war [with MA Caelum] started around turn 25-30, when I already had Tomb Oracles
- I put Forge of the Ancients up for 2 turns [dispeled it myself to not get too much attention] and forged 90% of artifacts
- there were some possible plans to attack Helheim, but I had MA Atlantis behind me and I had no idea what to expect from him, so he became my target
- MA Atlantis was winning with LA Pangaea, so finishing off LA Pan was an obvious choice, after MA Atlantis was killed [and LA Pan had 3 caps]
- with the change of Helheim player and dom spread started by previous one, my plan to attack him became real
- war with Helheim was very swift - there was no resistance, so I grabbed EA TC cap without problem, also most of his lands [with the help of my ally TNN]
- meanwhile I conquered EA Marverni from MA Arco [that went AI]
- plans to storm EA Helheim cap were postponed by Mictlan going AI [probably because of that armageddon spam?], I shifted my forces to grab as much Mictlan land as possible, before Lanka does it
- and after that I decided that it's good time to try teleport grab remaining VPs, so I took my chances and it worked

I also got gem donations from various nations - more details in coming [tomorrow] Thank You post :)

[Falkor]

Congratulations Zeldor!

Perfect timing!

[Darkwind]

Didn't I predict somewhere that no one would win Kingmaker? Looks like I was wrong :D

Congrats to everyone who managed to survive until the end, it's too bad I couldn't join that group :happy:

And it ends right as I go back to school too. It's definitely incredible timing--bit late for a Christmas miracle though ;) (or Generic Winter Holiday Act of Incredible Improbability, for those of you who like to be politically correct :p)

[LoloMo]

Congratulations Zeldor! Well Done!

[Reay]

Well done Zeldor. I never could have managed such a large empire so I am glad my ally won the game.

I now realise how powerful raiding glamoured Ri's and Sidhe lords can be. I had about 30 fully kitted out and only lost about 3-4 the entire game due to leech's or drain lifes.

My god was heavily horror marked most of the game. Luckily she managed to kill about 50 horrors including 4 doom horrors (2 in one turn). High MR was the key to her continued survival.

[DrPraetorious]

My first war was with Pythium. That went swimmingly, about as well as could be expected.

My second war was with Agartha - and I never really recovered. I made a huge number of significant mistakes that cost me several air jarls - and once I was in it that deep, I certainly couldn't afford to pull out without a win, and I lost more giants, equipment, and jarls. This invasion was a major mistake any way you slice it, but I might have recovered if not for some almost comical errors (I kept optimizing my research *before* setting units to forge, for example.)

As a side project, I invaded some ocean positions - and at the same time I fought a fairly disastrous war with Bandar Log. In theory, this could've led to my victory, as it enabled my allies to smash several enemies in the far south, but it just didn't pan out, and I left my jarls far too exposed to a late-game enemy.

On this last turn, my sea army was heading north to get into the other pond. They weren't on a lab province on the crucial turn that his forces arrived - so I had no water breathing items to outfit my teleporters! I probably could've held those two fortresses if I'd been able to gate stuff under the water, but with no water breathing items and my water breathing troops not at a lab. Sigh.

[Xietor]

Congratulations Zeldor!

A winner to a mege game.

For my part, it was my intent from the start to play a few rounds and exit in a blaze of glory. After a couple of successful wars against EA Aysia and LA Tien Chi, I was going to do a suicide attack on Zeldor. It was obvious to me that his lead was getting too large, and that for whatever reason the Weatern nations refused to deal with him.

But my plans on attacking Zeldor got undermined by a suicide attack on me by Ulm.That was not a big delay, but then Bandar Log and LA Marignon, for reasons that will never be clear to me, attacked as well. Normally I see that they thought a 2 v 1(3 if you count ulm) should result in a win, but any that have fought me know that wins are never quick or easy.

Moreover, I had told both of these nations I was going to attack la agartha. Had they waited a bit, they could have had my empire and it would have been crippled by my war with Zeldor. And it was intent to hurt Zeldor enough to let one of the Eastern powers gain the upper hand.

But as they say the best laid plans of mice and men.........

I will say this. Zeldor must have a sweeter tongue for diplomacy. My gunboat diplomacy failed in this game.

[Zeldor]

Here is my last turn file. I can answer all questions :)

[Redeyes]

Okay, explain this:
Bleh, my starting position really really really sucks. I have no idea how could someone approve it for starting :/ I think someone owes me 50% of his income for having the game restarted...

Taken from the first page :happy:

I don't seem to be able to download the map from Mediafire, so at least I can't view your turn...

[Hadrian_II]

OK, i have declared the game finished.

Turn 89 for a megagame is quite short :)

congratulations Zeldor

[rdonj]

I can't seem to download the map from the first post. Does anyone who has a copy feel like putting it up somewhere so people who weren't in the game can see zeldor's undoubtedly magnificent last turn?

[Zeldor]

kingmaker_wrap2.rgb? I will upload it, should take about 10-15 mins though. It's quite big [I could probably pack it, but nah...]

Ok, here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?gtyymmn2ei9

[rdonj]

Thanks!

[llamabeast]

Congratulations on the win Zeldor!

[AdmiralZhao]

Congratulations Zeldor. Your victory shows that just because some people live underground doesn't mean you should look down on them.

[Lingchih]

Congratulations Zeldor.

I should have stuck with you.

[Redfrog]

But you do not need the map file to play in the game just the rgb file.

http://rapidshare.com/files/154581783/kingmaker_wrap2.zip.html try this

This link, still works^ ^

[rdonj]

Oops. I completely forgot he did that.

[Meglobob]

Well done Zeldor!

Particularly impressed by:-

Being 1st in research throughout the game, even with drain-2, just shows how good La Agarthian mages are. The game I won with La Agartha was because of my research lead.

Dispelling your own Forge of the Ancients after making most of the uniques. Good play, I would of never thought of doing this, probably stopped a earlier alliance vs you.

Your excellent diplomacy, stopping a serious alliance of your neighbors ganging up on you.

Turn 89 victory in a megagame, very impressive.

[Zeldor]

My pretender design:

Awake A3E4D3 Risen Oracle. Growth3, Sloth3, Heat1, Growth3, Misfortune2, Drain2.

I expanded with cave drakes only.


I never cast any Armageddon. I wonder who started it? As I think it was Helheim doing last ones.

I had about 500E gems in my 2nd Forge. Did anyone try to dispel it, except DrP?

Meglobob:
I finished all research on turn 73. I had very small amount of lanterns [maybe 10-15 total max], no other research boosters.