Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[namad]

it's okay the question has already been answered by others..

also i think if teleport did occur it would've blocked movement like I said...


so i'm fairly sure you didn't teleport, but to deny that you have researched teleport with a straight face is actually the funniest thing i've heard all day :)

[Septimius Severus]

Noob team news:

A substitute, Lupus Fatalis, will be taking over for Lumen Placidum (Machaka) while the former is away.

Squirreloid has returned and will be resuming Shinuyama from Iainuki.

Both changes effective as of turn 28.

Iainuki will be staying on as an alternate and covering for Viccio (Abyssia) in the next few days as the latter will also be away a short time.

[Septimius Severus]

Also, Kietsensei, Unoptimized, and Morpf have been dropped as noob alternates.

[TwoBits]

Less than three hours, still waiting on Caelum and Arco.

[TwoBits]

Only half an hour left, and still no turn from Caelum - can anything be done? Stales really suck at this juncture...

[iainuki]

I could play that position, but I would need a delay, and there's no way I'm getting it in in the last half-hour or so here.

[atul]

Truth to be told, there isn't much to be done as Caelum.

...but, that little done right might have a big effect.

No pressure. :)

[iainuki]

Someone will need to switch my email. If I know who to send it to, I can send it. Then I 'll try to get the turn in ASAP, though unfortunately I have other stuff going on this afternoon so it won't be perfect, but it will be better than staling.

[atul]

Either rdonj or Septimus can do it. Send PM to them telling your email.

[rdonj]

Switched a little while ago and time added, which I said on the noob forums. I've been a bit busy and did not have time to check here as well.

[TheDemon]

Once I realized why your spiders stopped attacking the angel of fury, that latest battle recording was absolutely hilarious.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, so Shinuyama staled because Iainuki took both its turn and Caelums turn (so Caelum didn't stale). If Caelum had staled it wouldn't be a big deal, but Shinuyama staling is painful.

Iainuki has suggested that we request a rollback - leave everyone else's turns the same, and just arrange things so Shinuyama doesn't stale (he can send me the turn file for example, so i can be the one to submit it). Shinuyama is making no attacks on any players, so it shouldn't effect any one else's turn reports adversely.

(If people are against the idea its not the end of the world - there were no truly major disasters. But a lot of little things didn't happen).

[namad]

i don't think i would have any problem with this but.... shouldn't someone have posted about this like 10-20hours ago? not right now? I have a feeling its so far into the hosting cycle that at least some people might come down opposed?

[Squirrelloid]

i don't think i would have any problem with this but.... shouldn't someone have posted about this like 10-20hours ago? not right now? I have a feeling its so far into the hosting cycle that at least some people might come down opposed?

I first looked at the turn last night. I first got a chance to discuss it this morning. Sorry?

[rdonj]

I am in the camp that says rollbacks for accidental stales are generally a bad idea. However, if the vet team does not object to it I will roll back the turn.

[rdonj]

Upon further review of the impact of shinuyama's stale, I do not believe that a rollback is in order. There will thus be no rollback as I believe a rollback is more likely to have a detrimental impact on the game than a positive one.

[namad]

too many things go luckily for the noobs this turn, eh? lol

[rdonj]

No, just the stale didn't really hurt shinuyama enough to warrant a rollback as far as I can tell. Plenty of things went poorly for the noobs this turn :)

[TheDemon]

If we did rollback there's a good chance I'd win that fort battle so I'm all for it. :five:

[namad]

the only random event I was aware of that effected me was a ~20% chance to lose the best unit in the game, and I lost it... of course I could be wrong about what events did or did not occur.

for all I know a barbarian horde disrupted a fort the noobs were building somewhere :-p

[Septimius Severus]

Upon further review of the impact of shinuyama's stale, I do not believe that a rollback is in order. There will thus be no rollback as I believe a rollback is more likely to have a detrimental impact on the game than a positive one.
I agree. Rollbacks should be used sparingly.

[Septimius Severus]

Another noob team update: Wheh!

Raiel will be taking over Caelum for the time being unless or until a suitable replacement can be found. Skinu to stay on as a noob alternate.

[atul]

Just FYI:

I'll be leaving for a summer school to Norway for a week on next week's Sunday. There should be an internet connection somewhere, but it's probably quite hectic time so I'll be needing a substitute.

Preferably someone able to put some thought into game.

[rdonj]

Maybe Lingchih can sub for you?

[namad]

honestly... it makes sense to either put the game on hold for a week or for us to just forfeit...

atul is like 75% of our team, if we had anyone who could actually sub they'd probably have been used before at some point :-/

[rdonj]

Namad - are you the only one who wants to call the game, or are all the vets looking at concession at the moment?

[namad]

I don't want to quit... but we don't have any subs lined up, if we did we probably would've already had one of them play for us a month or two ago...



So I just don't see any other options except the two I mentioned. I think you took the opposite implication of the one I wanted my previous post to make.

[rdonj]

Seems that way :P

[Raiel]

Funny... I didn't want to sound disrespectful to the other vets, but when I read atul's post, my thoughts were very similar to what namad posted. I'm somewhat surprised that my view from the outside matches namad's from the inside.

It certainly wouldn't bother me to wait, though I cannot speak for the rest of the team.

On another topic, I'd really like to hear namad's impression of that last battle for his capitol...

[namad]

I never realized curse was that powerful (I thought it was 200% but it seems more like 500% after watching that battle, taking regeneration's defense against afflictions into account).

Although even considering that, the chest wound that early in the battle on a unit which could only be defeated by a chest wound was fairly lucky. Additionally the 1attempt 1kill mind hunt on some of my backup the previous turn didn't go that well for me....

I definitely made mistakes, the flight was supposed to increase my odds of making mage kills (honestly I didn't want flight but I felt like if I had the item it was better than going into battle without boots... a bit of flawed logic on my behalf), which I suppose it did do (you came very very very close to losing every single mage you had brought), but it was also probably entirely responsible for my loses and I can't afford any loses at this point. Additionally, I prepared against a couple of tactics that you didn't end up using, and as a result hurt my ability to handle the tactic you did use.

I predicted I would be dead long before turn 30. The strategy you are currently using has gotten fairly lucky, I feel that there is another strategy you could be using that would have eliminated me much faster, and with less random factor.

Right now I'm just trying to have some fun with the game and see what happens. I think the morale for the vet players is extremely low and for the past few weeks communication has been getting more and more scarce. However like I said, atul is 75% of our team so if he wants to continue playing I want to try my best to help him. If someone who doesn't know what is going on subs for him and screws up his position he'll almost certainly have to quit. So, if you force him to take a sub it will probably end the game earlier than if you fully accommodate him. If your goal is to enjoy the game as long as possible you would want to do this.

I remember stating earlier in this thread that if you wanted to see late game strategies you shouldn't've drafted a game scenario that was designed so poorly that most of the veterans refused to return. However, now I feel that you could just accommodate us to try and keep us from forfeiting. Although I can't really speak for the rest of the team. Everyone on the veteran team has noticed a marked decrease in interest over the past couple of weeks. Although overall communication has been going down ever since turn 8, or 9 (yep thats right even before things went poorly).

[Raiel]

I hope you remember, and are willing to share, these strategies when doing so can no longer influence the outcome of the game (or when we stumble upon them).

[rdonj]

I was not attempting to force him to get a sub, I was merely attempting to see if you guys were going to look for a sub as atul stated he wanted one. Remember I have no vested interest in this game, as I am not playing. It does not hurt me for the game to be on pause for a week :P In fact that may even simplify things for the noob team and lessen my admin duties. In any case, the path will be taken will be the one that seems to be in the best interests of the game. If atul can find a sub that he feels is capable of playing a few turns for him, the game will probably continue. If not then the game will pause, as it is quite obvious that atul is a very important player for your team.

[namad]

If the noob team was communicating as much right now, as the vet team was on turn 6. I have a feeling in that case you'd know all the strategies I was imagining you'd be using. ;)


Honestly just ask me on IRC sometime after the game is over and if I can remember I'll tell you. I've made a decent number of mistakes myself and I'm much more likely to remember those in a month than anything related to anyone else.

[TheDemon]

I'm fine with us finding a sub or game on hold. I personally have said I would like to continue. Fact is Atul and I and our little empires are still in great shape and namad has basically been drawing out a losing battle as long as he can and the writing was on the wall for him several turns ago, so he's probably more down on the final outcome than the two of us down south.

[namad]

what i'm trying to say is... in a game that is basically like 2on10

the team of 2 can't afford to have subs, the team of 10 can....


i mean unless we could get like QM to sub or something... but i just figure he won't do it unless he owes atul a favor

[TwoBits]

I say take a break while Atul deals with his summer school (ouch, sorry! ;) ) situation. He is a major component of the game at this point, and not easily replaced. Besides, plenty of Noobs are doing summer stuff, and it might be just as well for us to have extra time to sort things out.

[Septimius Severus]

Hadrian_II is actually the vet's lined up alternate. Anyone of the vets living or dead :) may also serve as a sub for atul if needed or indeed anyone else who might be available.

While the vets will not be forced to use an alternate or a sub, it is highly recommended, especially if atul can find a sub he's comfortable with. A week's delay should be avoided if at all possible, but the noob team, would probably not die if it came to that.

The vet team should not consider forfeiting over this issue alone.

[Lingchih]

I will sub for Atul if need be. I am familiar with Vanheim, and have played them several times. That said, I do not wish to sub for Van, since his plan is intricate and complicated, and I might not pick up on all the nuances of it.

[Squirrelloid]

a break is fine. I'm going to be gone for 4 days mildly overlapping the end of that, but might actually be able to use a computer sometime during it. Regardless, if i submit the last turn just as i'm leaving, by the time he takes his turn and the new one gets sent i might actually be back to my computer...

(Sorry, its been a busier summer than originally planned)

[Septimius Severus]

a break is fine. I'm going to be gone for 4 days mildly overlapping the end of that, but might actually be able to use a computer sometime during it. Regardless, if i submit the last turn just as i'm leaving, by the time he takes his turn and the new one gets sent i might actually be back to my computer...

(Sorry, its been a busier summer than originally planned)

I'm sure we can cover most noob substitutions as they arise. But yes, clearly the noob team can handle such a break if absolutely neccessary.

Ling is quite good with Vanheim, I can attest to that. :)

[TheDemon]

Sorry guys, but can I request a 24-hour extension of the current turn? I need to put some thought into my turn and I'll be gone all Sunday. Thanks.

[atul]

Hm, delay still not granted. Any game admins awake?

[rdonj]

Delay granted. You are correct, I was not awake to add a postponement to the game. Almost missed it.

[Septimius Severus]

Next turn we are scheduled to move to a 56 hour host, so people should have more time to get their turns in.

[TheDemon]

I had planned to wake up just in time (aka now), just in case, so would have been ok anyway.

[melnorjr]

Just so you know, I rather expected that exact result in Wic, but did it anyway.

and if you're curious about the lame attack, atul, I was gambling that you might move to dragon ridge to stop me from running about your lands, and with your army moving to a friendly province, it would move before mine did.

[Squirrelloid]

Namad - did I actually kill an Adon? How many times is Phoenix Pyre supposed to resurrect them?

[TheDemon]

I, too, throw my only supercombatant into situations where I except he will be killed for no discernable benefit.






In all seriousness, you needed a way to stop my guy from running off before you started dropping the pretender on him constantly. Rime Hauberk, or maybe firing off a few Paralyzes before moving in, or Staff of Storms. Assuming I don't equip him with the CR ring I just looted.

[Joelz]

Namad - did I actually kill an Adon? How many times is Phoenix Pyre supposed to resurrect them?

I think Phoenix Pyre resurrects the caster unless he dies when his fatigue is over 100. Every time the caster is killed in the battlefield they gain guite a lot of fatigue and explode dealing lots of AOE fire damage.
Not sure about this though :confused:

[rdonj]

Namad - did I actually kill an Adon? How many times is Phoenix Pyre supposed to resurrect them?

I think Phoenix Pyre resurrects the caster unless he dies when his fatigue is over 100. Every time the caster is killed in the battlefield they gain guite a lot of fatigue and explode dealing lots of AOE fire damage.
Not sure about this though :confused:

This is 100% the case.

Turns 4-30:
Noob Gold Total - 675,424
Noob Gem Total - 4,698
Vet Gold Total - 214,139
Vet Gem Total - 1,926

Gold advantage - 3.15x
Gem advantage - 2.4x

[atul]

J
and if you're curious about the lame attack, atul, I was gambling that you might move to dragon ridge to stop me from running about your lands, and with your army moving to a friendly province, it would move before mine did.

Movement doesn't care that much about province alliance.

And, if you feel like running around my mostly worthless provinces with that kind of armies, just feel free. :)

[melnorjr]

I, too, throw my only supercombatant into situations where I except he will be killed for no discernable benefit.






In all seriousness, you needed a way to stop my guy from running off before you started dropping the pretender on him constantly. Rime Hauberk, or maybe firing off a few Paralyzes before moving in, or Staff of Storms. Assuming I don't equip him with the CR ring I just looted.

I know. Like I said, I expected him to flee, and then the reinforcements to kill my pretender.

[melnorjr]

J
and if you're curious about the lame attack, atul, I was gambling that you might move to dragon ridge to stop me from running about your lands, and with your army moving to a friendly province, it would move before mine did.

Movement doesn't care that much about province alliance.

And, if you feel like running around my mostly worthless provinces with that kind of armies, just feel free. :)


Alright, will do. Thanks for the permission.

[namad]

First of all, I thought we were adding 8hours to the hosting cycle? (these hours did not appear).

Secondly, was this the week atul was taking off or was that next week?

Finally in the battle replay I watched: the adon which did not have a bonus reinvigoration item was the only adon to die period, and additionally in that battle replay he died for real... In the battle replay he gained the affliction weakened... however on my turn he is alive with the affliction never healing wound... seems as if my battle replay was bugged.

Although all of my raise dead spammers still died, ruining any chance I had of staying alive (they were intended for use against c'tis as you apparently correctly predicted).

Good work :)

In order for a unit with phx pyre to "die" he must have 100fatigue or higher when he "dies" if you want to learn how this works just create a test game in which you use the phoenix pretender in cbm as it automatically has phx pyre in effect at all times.

[Septimius Severus]

First of all, I thought we were adding 8hours to the hosting cycle? (these hours did not appear).

Secondly, was this the week atul was taking off or was that next week?

The 8 hours were indeed added. Hosting was at 10:35 GMT on Wednesday, now currently 18:35 GMT Wednesday.

I believe atul will be taking off at the end of this week but we will have to hear from him regarding the exact date.

[atul]

I'll be away from early sunday morning (23th) to late thursday evening (27th), dunno the exact time I'll be able to do my turn as on friday it's back to work.

[TwoBits]

Hey Marignon, stop waiting until the last minute to do your turn! Some of us need to (or at least should) go to bed, and don't like having to stay up so long! :D

[namad]

with the hosting cycle as long as it is you could just go to bed early and still have 2days to do your turn after waking up :)

[Joelz]

Marignon's better hurry. Only 25 minutes left before hosting. Perhaps he needs a delay?

[namad]

the vet forum hasn't really had anyone but me posting in it for the past week... maybe he does need a delay... be nice if we could get one since in the past they've been granted in situations like this

[rdonj]

Would have granted it, but was unavailable.

[TwoBits]

I'm pretty sure TheDemon got his turn in. This is not the first time he's waited until the last moment to submit. It seems to be part of his 'strategy'? :p

[namad]

If you knew how many hours thedemon puts into his turns, you'd know that his strategy is just to work as hard as he can on every turn.

I wouldn't disparage him for that. Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that no one has spent more time on nvv3 than him.

[Raiel]

I don't think TwoBits intended to disparage TheDemon in any way. I try not to make a habit of speaking for others, but I strongly believe that all of the noob team-members have a deep respect and appreciation for the effort and time the Vets have invested into this game.

[Septimius Severus]

If we can get this turn in a bit early, atul may be able to submit his next turn (and have a good amount of time to do so) before he goes. Just a suggestion of course.

[Lingchih]

Sorry for butting in, since I am dead, but I think the game seems to be over. Posting on the vet board is almost completely over. I think it is more of a me vs. them game right now, and not a cooperative MP game, for the Vets.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[namad]

As far as I know our team has entirely stopped communicating with eachother as of like a week ago.

but then again atul and thedemon could just discuss things privately as they constitute 97% of the team now :) I wouldn't know about that.

[chrispedersen]

Do the newbs have a significant advantage?

[TheDemon]

Not much to discuss. Its clear who is responsible for what fronts, we aren't really raiding much, so not much to coordinate. When someone else on my team needs to know something I'm doing, I let them know.

As for significant advantage, they have a bigger advantage than they started with.:confused:

[rdonj]

Yeah, the noob team's resource advantage just keeps growing and growing as the turns go by. Occasionally there is a minor resurgence, but then it is quickly squashed. Overall per turn incomes have been even more skewed than my reports have been letting on for some time now. Unless they have a significant undocumented gem income, they are very, very far behind. The question at this point is, can atul and thedemon win simply by virtue of being better at the late game than the noobs. At this point it is clear that the few remaining other vets are on their way out, so the noobs control the vast majority of the land.

However no one has been able to put anything even resembling a dent in atul yet. The only thing he's lost so far is his god, and if we're being fair here, I don't know that the noobs could have killed it without it autorouting and dying due to the turn limit. He has just run into his first significant noob nation though, and seems to be slowing down a bit. We'll have to see how things go over the next few turns.

[chrispedersen]

I was curious about the vets strategy on this.

Obviously, research doesn't transfer between partners, with only limited migration - forge buddy, remote spells etc. So I'm curious if the vets tried a lead researcher - perhaps a bogarus or ea arco - who wasn't expected to to militarily dominate - but was expected to provide globals, magic items, etc.

Interesting challenge being outnumbered 2:1.

[TwoBits]

If you knew how many hours thedemon puts into his turns, you'd know that his strategy is just to work as hard as he can on every turn.

I wouldn't disparage him for that. Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that no one has spent more time on nvv3 than him.

Yeah, no disparagement intended :) I'd just noticed that he sometimes liked to wait until everyone else had submitted their turns, and figured he was doing some last minute coordinating or something. You can take your time, TheDemon, and ignore me when I'm whining for the turn :D

[TheDemon]

I was curious about the vets strategy on this.

Obviously, research doesn't transfer between partners, with only limited migration - forge buddy, remote spells etc. So I'm curious if the vets tried a lead researcher - perhaps a bogarus or ea arco - who wasn't expected to to militarily dominate - but was expected to provide globals, magic items, etc.

Interesting challenge being outnumbered 2:1.

We couldn't afford the luxury. All of us poured it on research early, except Ermor and Ashdod. I think Baalz had a Great Sage that did more than 40 RP a turn. The general idea is early army vs army is all about who has more stuff. So we need to reach the early-mid game evocations buffs summons and items first and use them to devastating effect on whatever armies are being thrown around.

I think our main miscalculation was that while army recruitment scales up significantly with the +150% gold/resources, mage recruitment scales up more slowly and spells don't scale up at all. So for example if I was spamming Thunder Strike, I would have to spam it 50% more times than in a regular game. A thug would have to kill 50% more guys than in a regular game. All the mid-game strategies need to be re-evaluated in terms of this.

I think this is why atul is doing so well, he's wielding armies and using buffs. Those DO scale up 50%. Prison of Fire spam or communions however, do not.

[Squirrelloid]

I've actually enjoyed the 150% gold/resources because I like army play a lot more than random totally uber guys running around. That said, i'm starting to run into battleground size limitations with my main army (I really want to spread out more!). But still, legions of dai-bakemono with mage support has been much more satisfying to me than making some uber-thugs or SCs to take down Ashdod's giants. (Also, i think 150%g/r is enough that Ashdod actually got to field things that look like armies of giants rather than just a few uber guys with retinues).

[chrispedersen]

I was curious about the vets strategy on this.

Obviously, research doesn't transfer between partners, with only limited migration - forge buddy, remote spells etc. So I'm curious if the vets tried a lead researcher - perhaps a bogarus or ea arco - who wasn't expected to to militarily dominate - but was expected to provide globals, magic items, etc.

Interesting challenge being outnumbered 2:1.

We couldn't afford the luxury. All of us poured it on research early, except Ermor and Ashdod. I think Baalz had a Great Sage that did more than 40 RP a turn. The general idea is early army vs army is all about who has more stuff. So we need to reach the early-mid game evocations buffs summons and items first and use them to devastating effect on whatever armies are being thrown around.

I think our main miscalculation was that while army recruitment scales up significantly with the +150% gold/resources, mage recruitment scales up more slowly and spells don't scale up at all. So for example if I was spamming Thunder Strike, I would have to spam it 50% more times than in a regular game. A thug would have to kill 50% more guys than in a regular game. All the mid-game strategies need to be re-evaluated in terms of this.

I think this is why atul is doing so well, he's wielding armies and using buffs. Those DO scale up 50%. Prison of Fire spam or communions however, do not.


You are exactly correct demon. Money changes the early balance between mages and armies. (Recruitment limit of 1/castle for example).

Also it puts a premium on fast out of the gate expanders - like mictlan, mercenaries...

[TheDemon]

I've actually enjoyed the 150% gold/resources because I like army play a lot more than random totally uber guys running around. That said, i'm starting to run into battleground size limitations with my main army (I really want to spread out more!). But still, legions of dai-bakemono with mage support has been much more satisfying to me than making some uber-thugs or SCs to take down Ashdod's giants. (Also, i think 150%g/r is enough that Ashdod actually got to field things that look like armies of giants rather than just a few uber guys with retinues).

It's fun all right. My concern is that it isn't "realistic", as in you won't find any other games that play this way. If the point is to teach you, well I know you've learned plenty, but standard settings would have taught counters better. When all you're doing is slamming big armies into big armies, the guy with the biggest army wins. Most of the time you can't change the size of your army in the time you have between scouting an attacking force and defending against it. I'm of the opinion that it's fortunate that in Dominions, the right spell picks and equipment and thug scripts and so forth has an effect much larger than the size of the army. In the end, the size of the army supporting those picks is a relatively minor factor. For example, when you (Shinu I presume) wiped Ashdod's army/thugs with Ice Pebble Staffs, you could have done that backed by an army half the size.

What these settings do is scale back the effect of these counters. It's foreign to me, and perhaps to some of the rest of the vets, because it doesn't resemble the game I'm used to playing. In a sense, many of you noobs have a big experience advantage on me here. Whether it makes for a good game or not, I'm not going to judge.

Anyway, the vets are used to my monologues on IRC, but you guys aren't, and I've rambled on long enough.

[Squirrelloid]

I still had problems with Ashdod's sacreds. And Namad threw me for a loop the first time he kept everyone at the back with guard commander to stay out of range of my rusting mist. So i'm definitely learning some things. And magic was still essential to beating Ashdod's giants, as witnessed by my first few losses against his army.

If anything, I'd say Team play, while interesting, is the worst for learning. I mean, as Shinuyama its not standard to be able to call in teleporting mage-duel teams to wipe annoying astral thugs.

[namad]

qm taught me the guard commander move about a year and a half ago or so :)

it's brilliant. although only useful in small doses.

[atul]

Okay, reading what I wrote the following comes off as too negative, that's not meant so badly. I'm just not able to rephrase. A game nice to have, and as the situation currently stand noobs can either learn new tricks or kill me by exhaustion (which isn't fun). :p

He has just run into his first significant noob nation though, and seems to be slowing down a bit.

You mean Ulm? I could march onto his capital with my closest army as it is and there isn't anything he's currently fielding against me that could stop me. I'm not that hot on rushing though as all the castles take a while to breach, and Ulm's troops don't take kindly to raiders.

I don't have that much trouble with 150% everything as I played Midgård in Preponderance with similar settings. Though I agree with TheDemon, this game has little resemblance to usual games. The charm of Dominions (according to my preferences) is finding solutions to changing problems with limited resources. Not just flooding people with More Of The Same.

As to this game being too much Team game, I must disagree. The setup made this into a series of 2-against-1s with some weak interaction. For an actual team game the placement should've been so that there would be at least some chance to cover your teammate. But, with the demands of 1/2 distribution and that every noob gets a straight route to fight that was pretty much impossible.

And, the map is a bit big to conquer on my own and so on, so I might stop complaining. ;)

[melnorjr]

Well, this game has been interesting to say the least. It isn't over yet, of course.

another thing I think might be fun for a teaching type game, if any vets were at all interested and not totally burned out by the noob v vet series, would be to have multiple teams of one vet and like 2 noob flunkies. That way, the odds wouldn't be so stacked against the vets - it would be a completely fair math up, hopefully - and each noob would be able to learn directly from a vet on his team, as well as the ones they were fighting. In fact, I may try to start a game like this. But not until this one is concluded.

[melnorjr]

Atul, Back a whole bunch of turns ago you were repeatedly attacking me with single commanders. Now you are attacking an empty province with a single commander again. I assume there has to be a reason for it, but I can't for the life of me figure out what its gaining you.

[Septimius Severus]

Well, this game has been interesting to say the least. It isn't over yet, of course.

another thing I think might be fun for a teaching type game, if any vets were at all interested and not totally burned out by the noob v vet series, would be to have multiple teams of one vet and like 2 noob flunkies. That way, the odds wouldn't be so stacked against the vets - it would be a completely fair math up, hopefully - and each noob would be able to learn directly from a vet on his team, as well as the ones they were fighting. In fact, I may try to start a game like this. But not until this one is concluded.
That idea has been brought up before and could prove interesting. Though I always wondered whether such a game would be more properly referred to as Noobs and Vets. I would certainly give my endorsement to any follow up noobs vs vets game type game. Matching up noobs and vets is an extremely difficult balancing act as there are so many variables both quantifiable and unquantifiable. My hopes and prayers go with anyone else who wishes to try.

All of us involved have put a great deal of thought and preparation into every game in the series (if you know me, you know I wouldn't have it any other way), including almost a month for this last one before we even got started.

While I can't speak for all the noobs, this game has certainly added to the knowledge I picked up from the vets in the previous two games. Hopefully, the focus on learning and spirit of teamwork will continue for as long as feasible in this game and in any future iterations.

Game note: With luck we should be able to get one more turn in before having to institute a delay, unless the vets have found a suitable sub for atul.

[atul]

Atul, Back a whole bunch of turns ago you were repeatedly attacking me with single commanders. Now you are attacking an empty province with a single commander again. I assume there has to be a reason for it, but I can't for the life of me figure out what its gaining you.

Oh, there's this bug that makes commanders drop their troops. Happens every now and then and it's been plaquing me for some time. That's the reason for current mishap.

Previously, those scouting attacks were just in case you'd bring in a new army, so I'd know your composition in advance before you would be attacking me.

[TheDemon]

Tell Machaka to break siege before his guys all die from disease. This particular fort is really easy to starve, as I discovered earlier.

I think Lingchih is subbing for Atul. Not 100% sure.

[rdonj]

Machaka staled last turn. Once again proving that the noobs are not immune to staling.

[melnorjr]

Atul, Back a whole bunch of turns ago you were repeatedly attacking me with single commanders. Now you are attacking an empty province with a single commander again. I assume there has to be a reason for it, but I can't for the life of me figure out what its gaining you.

Oh, there's this bug that makes commanders drop their troops. Happens every now and then and it's been plaquing me for some time. That's the reason for current mishap.

Previously, those scouting attacks were just in case you'd bring in a new army, so I'd know your composition in advance before you would be attacking me.


Ahh, Guess I'm lucky, never having had that bug happen to me.

And I suppose the other makes sense. it just confused me that you were sitting on my unprotected border sending one commander at a time at it, when you had an army that could have easily taken the province.

[atul]

The troops get dropped at the end of the host so if you pay attention you can see that they don't have a leader. But guess I wasn't paying attention.

As to Ulm being unable to stop my closest army, guess that was a bit of a boast. But, I still consider me handing out 4 times the casualties I got when my troops were outnumbered 3 to 1 a pretty decisive show of who's in the receiving end.

Is Ling subbing for me? I'd think the current turn would be the last one I have time for.

[namad]

I think maybe atul should talk to ling sometime ;) otherwise I'd just assume we're on delay...


really theres only two players left on the noob team I dunno if theres any reason not to wait for him...

[ano]

atul's first point was a joke. Scouting is the correct answer.

[atul]

Actually, wouldn't be that sure. Most units droppings to date have been playing Marverni, check some strat thread about them and see people complaining about the behaviour.

Scouting is a real answer but it doesn't explain those troops dropping away.

Oh, and about that troop concentration earlier on, they were supposed to go to Jotun front but someone Arrowed the Van that was supposed to sail them over. They were never intended to go at Arco lands.

And as to Ling, the last thing I heard was him saying he'd rather not but can if no other solution presents itself. I'm not that sure I want to burden him if that's how he feels.

[ano]

Never encountered that. Perhaps there're some bugs in this game that I still don't know:). Pitiful bug, if so.

[rdonj]

Yeah we'll just put it on hold.

[Lingchih]

Yeah we'll just put it on hold.

Cool. Atul and I never even talked about the turns, so it would be best if I stayed out. I just offered in case everyone was opposed to a delay.

[atul]

Well in that case, sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience. Airport calls in few hours, my current turn is in but next one will be after Thursday.

[Septimius Severus]

Noob team news: Lumen and viccio have been switched back to their respective nations effective turn 33.

Game updates:

The current turn (32) has been delayed 4 hours to allow Arco (Melnorj) a little extra time to get the turn in. Hopefully will not be needed.

A 72 hour delay will be instituted effective turn 33 to cover atul's absence bringing the next hosting time to sometime on Saturday. If more time is needed, just let us know.

[namad]

I am worried too many people have gotten too content... not enough .2h are coming in... we might need another emergency day?

[Septimius Severus]

I am worried too many people have gotten too content... not enough .2h are coming in... we might need another emergency day?
Heh. :) I can understand in atul's case, but you'd think 5 days oughta be enough for most everyone else. I'll monitor the situation and check again before hosting. I know a few players like to wait till the last moment anyway.

Noob team news:

Iainuki has taken over the helm of Caelum effective turn 33.

[Septimius Severus]

The current turn (33) has been postponed another 24 hours as we are still waiting for turn files from 5 players. Let's get those turns in.

[atul]

I've sent in my turn, thanks for the patience.

Usually it seems many people don't send in their turns before getting that reminder from Llamaserver. Very human of them.

[TwoBits]

We're waiting for Arco and Machaka now. Neither player has posted anything at the Noob forum for the last several days. Maybe they thought Atul was going to be gone through the weekend?

[TheDemon]

I guess the game decided that Fire Storm wouldn't work so well on the Fire Drakes, even though the hordes of spiders and mages behind them were perfectly vulnerable. But I won anyway, so whatever.

[DrPraetorious]

C'mon, noobs, I'm a pathetic shell wrapped in a joke! Get your kill on! I think Pangaea wants to keep me alive so he can use me to get rid of militia from events :(

[Squirrelloid]

C'mon, noobs, I'm a pathetic shell wrapped in a joke! Get your kill on! I think Pangaea wants to keep me alive so he can use me to get rid of militia from events :(

*snicker*

And here I was contemplating concession due to boredom. Seriously, Ashdod apparently acts before me, so I can't catch his flying badass, there's no way i can predict where he's going to end up, and he's not going to engage any of my armies. So i have nothing to do but reclaim lost provinces and preach at his capitol. This is fricking boring. (Die ashdod, die?)

(Its not that I care about his raiding, its that he has nothing substantial left to attack, and doing nothing except picking up after a raider every turn is mind-numbingly boring).

And once I put the last nail in his coffin, I get to figure out how I'm getting to someone who's actually still in this game...

[Septimius Severus]

I think Pangaea wants to keep me alive so he can use me to get rid of militia from events :(
How did you know? ;)

[namad]

it has nothing to do with who acts before who...that is not how combat movement is determined

[Calahan]

@ Squirrelloid.

Cloud Trapezing or Teleporting is the usual answer to flying thugs. As the magic phase happens before the movement phase, so the battle would take place before the flying unit had chance to move away, allowing you to 'catch it'.

[rdonj]

Well, I'm not quite sure who but someone seems to really be sticking it to vanheim. Atul has lost what, 20 provinces in the last 3-4 turns? It's starting to look like the writing is on the wall for the vets this time around. However, near as I can tell the noobs still haven't been able to beat skinshifters with mass flight and mistform. So maybe there is some hope left for the vans to eventually prevail?

Here's the income report for turn 35:

Noob Gold Total - 858,785
Noob Gem Total - 6,698
Vet Gold Total - 243,453
Vet Gem Total - 2,360

Gold advantage - 3.5x
Gem advantage - 2.8x

[Squirrelloid]

it has nothing to do with who acts before who...that is not how combat movement is determined

Actually, yes, it is.

Movement resolution order:
1) Friendly movement (between provinces you own)
2) Offensive movement
---Nations resolve in an order determined at game start. That order is maintained for the entire game. Its unclear (to me) if that order is determined randomly at game start, or if there is some ordering algorithm that always applies - i've seen proposed that its in nation ID order or reverse nation ID order (ie, one of those determined at game start).
---Movement by troops from the same nation probably happens in a predetermined order (I seem to recall my combat reports are always ordered by commander in the early game when there is only one commander/army), but irrelevant because units moving to the same territory join up before combat.
Note: Stealth units attacking a province in the same turn a magic phase movement into that province (by you) occurs will join the magic movement attackers.

Therefore, if you move before me one turn, you will always move before me because that ordering is set.

Note: this is not what the manual says. The manual is proveably wrong on this point.

[Squirrelloid]

@ Squirrelloid.

Cloud Trapezing or Teleporting is the usual answer to flying thugs. As the magic phase happens before the movement phase, so the battle would take place before the flying unit had chance to move away, allowing you to 'catch it'.

Did I mention I'm Shinuyama?

Also, I need an army to take out that Adon - a few mages isn't going to cut it (even assuming I could cloud trapeze or teleport).

[Calahan]

@ Squirrelloid

My comment on Cloud Trapezing or Teleporting was just a general piece of advice regarding the game itself on how to deal with flying thugs, and had nothing to do with specific nations. Although certain nations are a lot more vunerable to flying thug raiders than others. I'd imagine Shinuyama would struggle more than some due to lack of national Air or Astral.

And I think you are not quite understanding how the movement phase works. Which order a nation moves in during the movement phase is only relavent if there is a 3rd party involved, such as another nation or an Indy province for example. In these situations, the game decides randomly each turn (if I understand correctly) which nation attacks the 3rd party first. With the nation moving second subsequently attacking whatever is in the province when they arrive. ie. So the winner between the 3rd party and the nation that the game decided would move first on that particular turn.

But otherwise all non-friendly movements happen at exactly the same time, with whatever battles that result being resolved after movement. So as has already been said, there is no way to catch a flying raider by simply chasing it in the movement phase, as the movement will always happen at the same time.

[Squirrelloid]

@ Squirrelloid

My comment on Cloud Trapezing or Teleporting was just a general piece of advice regarding the game itself on how to deal with flying thugs, and had nothing to do with specific nations. Although certain nations are a lot more vunerable to flying thug raiders than others. I'd imagine Shinuyama would struggle more than some due to lack of national Air or Astral.

And I think you are not quite understanding how the movement phase works. Which order a nation moves in during the movement phase is only relavent if there is a 3rd party involved, such as another nation or an Indy province for example. In these situations, the game decides randomly each turn (if I understand correctly) which nation attacks the 3rd party first. With the nation moving second subequently attacking whatever is in the province when they arrive. ie. So the winner between the 3rd party and the nation that the game decided would move first on that particular turn.

But otherwise all non-friendly movements happen at exactly the same time, with whatever battles that result being resolved after movement. So as has already been said, there is no way to catch a flying raider by simply chasing it in the movement phase, as the movement will laways happen at teh same time.

Not true actually, i've tested this in SP. If you get attacked before you move your move gets cancelled, and i've had that happen due to normal movement from the AI, moving to my province from a province I was not moving to. (Obviously, the game has to choose a province when two armies moving towards each other meet in combat).

Also, simultaneous movement is likely impossible to implement, and if not then really hard to implement. The game must evaluate moves in some order (nature of computers - there is no 'simultaneous'). Now, you could make it appear simultaneous by waiting to evaluate the effect of a move, but the game does not appear to do so - thus when an army, moving before the other, enters the others territory, the game determines there is combat and cancels the other army's move.

[Calahan]

@ Squirrellord

I apologise, but I think I'll leave it to others to explain to you how the movement phase works. Since you are still not getting it because you seem convinced that you already know how it works, and will not listen to any explanations that differ from your mistaken version of it. Maybe others can expalin it in a different way that enables you to undestand.

[Squirrelloid]

@ Squirrellord

I apologise, but I think I'll leave it to others to explain to you how the movement phase works. Since you are still not getting it because you seem convinced that you already know how it works, and will not listen to any explanations that differs from your version. Maybe others can expalin it in a different way that enables you to undestand.

I'd be happy to discuss it, but I also have plenty of evidence to support my view, and if you want to convince me I'm wrong you'll have to provide evidence to the contrary that disproves my hypothesis and also explain how my evidence fits into your larger picture. All you've done so far is state a belief about how movement works - I have specific evidence that contradicts that belief so your hypothesis is false. (The game could not generate canceled moves i've seen if your hypothesis were true).

Note that the manual also makes the following claims about movement.
1) Moves are resolved in an order (true)
2) That order is determined randomly each turn (false)

(parentheticals are as best as I can determine).

So even the game designer thinks the moves resolve in a particular order - and since my observations agree with that assessment, I see no reason to doubt him there.

His claim about the order being randomly determined can be rejected with p < ~.01, based on the number of events i've witnessed in which the same nation always moved first in a given game (and no events to the contrary).

[atul]

I don't think the order is in question, just the end result.

First all magic phase movement happens, then contested provinces have their battles.

Then all normal phase movement happens, then any contested provinces resolve battles.

Chasing someone just doesn't work in Dominions. Or if it does they've really messed up movement in some patch.

[namad]

The order of the listing of the nations has nothing at all to do with why you can't catch this particular unit in this particular game.


I'm making unfriendly movement, you are making unfriendly movement...

all unfriendly movements are resolved before ANY combats at all take place...


now if two armies attempt to CROSS eachother by moving into eachothers adjacent provinces then yes movement can be blocked and canceled...


or if something happens during an earlier phase movement can be blocked and canceled..

otherwise? well what is the otherwise? I don't even know what this imagination additional case you are proposing is... feel free to elaborate about it more.


However, I am not incorrect.

You will never manage to catch me by moving in from an adjacent province unless I also choose to move to an adjacent province, since I can fly... I have to be foolish to do this (although i did it last turn because i had no scouting information about the world at all)... this is one of the advantages of flight... additionally another advantage of flight is being able to avoid having a movement CUT in an earlier phase, and additionally you have to patrol/defend all provinces mapmove2 and mapmove3 away from my current location (theres a much higher chance I will move to one of those than I will try to move to a strictly adjacent province... I wouldn't want to have my movement blocked and have that result in you being able to "combine" armies in my province)


I will die a dom death in 1-2turns anyways... additionally our entire team might concede any day now... if you wanna hop on irc sometime and discuss scenarios of movement and movement blocking I'd even be willing to throw together a test game in which I can send you the files to demonstrate any point you remain confused about and then send them to you.

[TheDemon]

Not true actually, i've tested this in SP. If you get attacked before you move your move gets cancelled, and i've had that happen due to normal movement from the AI, moving to my province from a province I was not moving to. (Obviously, the game has to choose a province when two armies moving towards each other meet in combat).


Sorry, but you're flat out wrong about this. Try to reproduce it when you're the one giving both orders (play both sides as human). If you manage to, make a thread about it, you'll have discovered something that goes completely contrary to the standard knowledge about movement.

The way it happens is, a) all regular movements happen in whatever order then b) any contested provinces battles are resolved. Even if an army enters the province you're moving from, you still move out. It's even possible, and I've seen it happen several times both in testing and in games, for two armies moving in direct opposition to "pass through" each other. If what you said was true - that movement into the prov blocks movement - then that scenario would never happen.

[TheDemon]

accidentally deleted this post the first time because I thought I double-posted. whoops.


We concede the game to the noob team. We've reached a point where no matter if we win all our remaining battles, we won't be able to keep up with your recruitment. Good game.

I think we did a number of little things and you guys did a number of little things right. Firstly, as I mentioned before, the settings weren't really conducive to the gameplay style we chose. Normally, the vets should probably go for using magic early, since you can take on a disproportional number of enemies easilly enough and since we're more familiar with the magic system in theory than the noobs. But with 150% settings, every spell and every thug needs to kill 50% more enemy troops to be as effective. Had we picked nations that relied on troops and suplemented that with buffs and a little magic, we might have done better. Secondly, we didn't support each other very well. The placement was actually pretty bad in allowing vet support, but it was what some of us advocated for, so no one to blame but ourselves. We also tended to segment off into 1v1 or 2v1 battles, for example we had arco on the ropes, but then we decided to leave him for marignon when we should have pushed really hard with all our nations. And we didn't make good use of our raiding nation, which should have supported those of us engaging in the big battles early on. For example, if we had retreat cut shinuyama with eriu raiders the first time he lost to ashdod, we could have pushed on his forts and maybe the north would have lasted longer. And of course we made the placement mistake and the noobs capitalized on it with ermor. Actually, the choice of ermor might not have been a great one either, since reanimation and skellyspam and cap-only sacreds don't scale up with the settings.

And your team did a great job, and were making a lot of veteran plays. Perhaps we should have used our veto for some of you at the start (Namad likes to comment that some of you have been playing for longer than he has). When I saw teleport-mind-duel squads and ice pebble staffs show up I knew we were in big trouble.

Anyway, good game, and I hope you all learned something. I did make a note earlier, before the current discussion broke out, that one thing that some of you hadn't picked up on yet was proper movement order, so interesting that we're having this discussion now.

[atul]

Yup, thanks for the game.

Agree with most that TheDemon said. I like the concept really, but settings this time was really weird in parts.

[namad]

btw the correct strategy I referenced earlier that the noobs failed to employ was just simply 'attack my capital with shinyuma' :)

the evocations and troops of the other nations were something I could deal with, even if not deal with well... I couldn't deal with shinyuma's troops nor their evocations whatsoever.... yet shinyuma sat on the sidelines for a half dozen turns



of course once you realized what this strategy was I immediately folded

[Lingchih]

I've been a long time gone but good game noobs. We took one out of three, so I guess that means that noobs in numbers win ;) Well, there's a lot more that goes into it than that. Game #2 was my favorite.

[Septimius Severus]

The game has been conceded by the vets @ turn 35. We will allow the current turn to process so that players may see the results of their last moves and resolve any final battles. I will declare the game finished at turn 36 and removed from the active games list on Llamaserver.

Great job by the vets, they lasted longer than us last game and still had 5 nations technically still alive as turn 35. The vet team put up a brave fight but genocide is no fun. I will be posting a thank you to all those involved in the series in an upcoming post. Feel free to comment or reflect on the game as you see fit.

Hurray for the noob team! :first:

[Trumanator]

I haven't followed the threads that much, but I think SS deserves some major kudos. Setting up 3 games on the scale of this is quite an accomplishment, and going the extra mile in each and setting up alternates is probably something that should be done for all games with this many players.

For you Septimus Severus: :first:

[atul]

Yup. Very well done Sept, congrats and thanks for seeing it through!

[Joelz]

This was a good game, glad to have participated. Hoping to fight againt you guys on more even terms in the future :)

[TheDemon]

the whole team learing game concept might benefit from two equal teams with vet captains (or 2 vet captains per team) and mostly noobs. much easier to balance that kind of scenario, and the noobs aren't left to flounder in the dark if they have questions or advice. something to think about for the future.

[rdonj]

Yeah, septimius has been considering organizing a game like that in the future. I have to agree, I think it would be a better tool for actual teaching. The noobs vs vets series was fun to play in, and I think all the noobs who've participated in the series have come out of it better players. I want to thank all the vets who have participated in the series. You've been great sports, and gracious both in victory and in defeat.

If anyone is curious, the noob forum will again be opened up for public viewing once the final turn hosts. You may find the pre-game discussion thread a little hard to comprehend this game, as it is basically a whole bunch of pre-game discussion threads thrown together :).

[rdonj]

Oh... and here is my little excel document of numbers, again if anyone is curious.

[Raiel]

Ah... and I finally got my hands on an Adon. I guess I should have deployed one of my Tartarians earlier, too, even if she was undergeared. :D

It was great fun. Thank you, Septimius! Thank you, Vets! Thank you, fellow noobs!

Personally, I don't think I'll join a team game again, unless the teams are only 3 or 4 players strong. I'm in four other games; I still spent more time on each turn in NvsV3 (reading forums for team mate reports, posting the same, etc...) than in all 4 other games combined. It was fun, but it was a little draining.

[Squirrelloid]

Thanks to the vets for playing. Namad certainly did some things I didn't expect, and I was totally unprepared for the badassedness that is Ashdod in our first battle. ('My dai-bakemono archers are awesome, I can take a handful of Sheshai Anakim!... what are Sheshai Anakim?') Yeah...

(To be totally fair to me, the only response I got to that claim was 'they're Ashdod's cheaper sacred' - which did nothing to dissuade me).

I was honestly surprised Namad played as conservatively as he did. I would have rushed straight for one of the n00b players to stop them from building up, probably pushing NE or NW to minimize the amount of front opened up (and it makes possible Ermorian support against that player). If I had been pressed I would have been in poor shape since I needed to get good evocation online to really deal with those giants.

[rdonj]

Actually, I think what I said was that they're ashdod's weaker sacred ;). And at that point, you guys were already playing and I had to keep my mouth shut.

[Squirrelloid]

Indeed. And I was completely convinced I could take him =)

[TwoBits]

I'd like to thank everyone involved too. Definitely a learning experience, and worth all the time I put into it. Kind of sad to see it end :)

Anyhow, I enjoyed the team format. Maybe 12 on a side was way too much to coordinate effectively or easily, but perhaps a game with 3-5 on a side (and perhaps more than 2 teams) would be very interesting.

[iainuki]

Thanks for the game, veterans. I certainly learned a lot. I don't feel I came in with much MP experience at all, though I first took over Squirrelloid's well-played position so I didn't have the chance to botch up the opening.

I'd love to play in another team game. Honestly, the thing I dislike most about MP dominions is the diplomacy, because it is an arbitrary timesink and the more you do the better your position, so I'd rather take on the more-defined commitments of a team game instead. Septimius, if you're planning anything like NvV in the future, count me in. I'd be willing to help admin, too, though if you're not thinking the near future, I might like to try to develop a game myself?

[Hoplosternum]

Thanks for the game everyone.

Even though I was knocked in to irrelevence early on I still enjoyed it :)

I like team games but I agree that the teams here were too large. I understand why they were for this format. But smaller teams would normally be my preference.

I agree with a lot of Iainuki's points about diplomacy, although I like ordinary mp too for all that. I wish there were more team games but most require at least some fiddling with the map files (to put the teams together) and as most games are played by the game creator that can cause issues I imagine.

[Septimius Severus]

Final stats for the game:


LlamaServer Scores, NoobsvsVetsIII_Revolution turn 36

Provinces

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Provinces</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>11</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>15</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>28</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>48</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>19</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>20</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>34</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>46</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>23</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>31</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>21</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>11</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>14</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>45</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>0</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Forts

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Forts</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>1</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Income

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Income</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>612</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>1790</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>4837</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>4852</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>1644</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>531</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>3368</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>3320</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>5210</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>406</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>4564</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>3022</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>2329</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>946</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>2119</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>4347</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>261</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>22</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Gem Income

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Gem Income</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>14</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>56</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>33</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>29</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>11</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>72</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>43</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>38</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>53</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>34</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>45</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>10</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>83</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>5</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Research

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Research</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>2331</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>223</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>5912</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>3972</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>4485</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>2444</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>9718</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>3293</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>2878</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>3703</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>9378</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>1472</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>5990</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>1280</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>2731</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>4084</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>1685</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>2336</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Dominion

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Dominion</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>307</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>500</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>391</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>253</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>390</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>259</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>321</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>209</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>190</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>390</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>359</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>233</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>340</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>76</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>449</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>14</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>159</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Army Size

<table bgcolor="#e9e9e9" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td>Nation</td> <td>Army Size</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Independents</td> <td>896</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Arcoscephale</td> <td>483</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ermor</td> <td>0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pythium</td> <td>1568</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ulm</td> <td>3300</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Marignon</td> <td>1111</td> </tr> <tr> <td>T'ien Ch'i</td> <td>191</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Machaka</td> <td>1627</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Agartha</td> <td>1948</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Abysia</td> <td>1429</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Caelum</td> <td>210</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C'tis</td> <td>1040</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Pangaea</td> <td>834</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vanheim</td> <td>1173</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Jotunheim</td> <td>489</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bandar Log</td> <td>717</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shinuyama</td> <td>2426</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ashdod</td> <td>18</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Eriu</td> <td>84</td></tr></tbody></table>

[DrPraetorious]

I claim victory.

We should definitely do another noobs and vets game. We could either do:
* equal numbers on each side (heh heh heh)
* a mix of teams of two vets and teams of three noobs (say). This way the number of vets and noobs doesn't have to (remotely) match up.
* teams of mixed noobs and vets.

If we go for the last option, my suggestion would be:
* teams of three.
* each team of three should be balanced re: experience level of the players, ideally would include one veteran, one moderately experienced player and one noob.
* the less experienced players within a team should be *required* to take whichever nations a given team drafts first.

This game is better MP meaning more than two teams - any game with two teams immediately becomes total war, which makes it hard for any of the late-game-research dependent nations to really thrive.

[Septimius Severus]

Here are the rosters from all 3 games in the series. I am grateful to all those who participated, especially those who participated in more than one game.

Special thanks goes to rdonj in the roles of player, co/backup game admin, noob forum admin, and general technical adviser and to Llamabeast, for the use of his excellent server. :clap:

And very special thanks to the entire Dominions 3 Shrapnel community for their input, support, and enthusiasm, without which, nothing would be possible. :clap:

<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } TD P { margin-bottom: 0in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style> <table width="100%" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <col width="127*"> <col width="129*"> <tbody><tr valign="TOP"> <td width="50%"> NvV I

Noobs
Septimius Severus - [R'lyeh]
Lavaere -
rdonj - [T'ien Ch'i]
Alpine Joe -
Lumen Placidum - [Ulm]
Darloth - [Jomon]
pyg - [Midgard]
Aristander - [Gath]
Amonchakad [Agartha]
Giant Moth - [Man]

GrudgeBringer (standby/alternate)
PsiSoldier (standby/alternate)
Arcturus42 (standby/alternate)
Jachra (standby/alternate)

Vets
Lingchih - [Pangaea]
Iron Hawk - [Abysia]
Evil Homer - [Mictlan]
Big and Scary - [Ermor]
Quantum_Mechani [Pythium]

Zeldor (standby/alternate)
</td> <td width="50%"> NvV II: Mysteria's Revenge

Noobs
Septimius Severus - [Ermor]
Grudgebringer - [Fomoria]
Ossa - [Sauromatia]
Lavaere - [Lanka]
Illuminated One - [Mictlan]
viccio - [Abysia]
LumenPlacidum - [Agartha]
Darloth - [C'tis]
Stretch - [Vanhiem]
P3D - [T'ien Chi']

Unoptimized (standby/alternate)
mikh4il (standby/alternate)
majuva68 (standby/alternate)
Jachra (standy/alternate)

Vets
Lingchih - [Niefelheim]
TheDemon - [Caelum]
atul - [Atlantis]
Ironhawk - [Helheim]
Quantum_Mechani - [Hinnom]

Zeldor (standby/alternate)
namad (standby/alternate)
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style>
[B]NvV III: Revolution

Noob Team.............................................. .........Vet Team
Septimius Severus [Pangaea] ........................ Lingchih [Ermor]
LumenPlacidum [Machaka].............................. namad [Ashdod]
viccio [Abysia] .................................................. TheDemon [Marignon]
melnorjr [Arcoscephale] ................................... Baalz [Eriu]
Lavaere/Hoplosternum [Bandar Log] ............. atul [Vanheim]
Squirrelloid [Shinuyama] .................................. DrPraetorius [T'ien Ch'i]
Joelz [Ulm]
Hoplosternum [Jotunheim] .............................. [U]Alternates
Skinu/Iainuki [Caelum] ..................................... Hadrian II
Pelthin [Agartha]
TwoBits [Pythium]
Raiel [C'tis]

Alternates
Stretch
LupusFatalis

Don't want the fun to end? Watch for these future games currently under consideration:

Noobs vs. AI's

Noobs vs. Vets: Alumni/Graduates

Noobs vs. Vets vs. Noobs

- Septimius Severus

[Septimius Severus]

We should definitely do another noobs and vets game. We could either do:
* equal numbers on each side (heh heh heh)
* a mix of teams of two vets and teams of three noobs (say). This way the number of vets and noobs doesn't have to (remotely) match up.
* teams of mixed noobs and vets.
Your first suggestion would be the Noobs vs. Vets: Alumni/Graduates I mentioned.

Your second and third would be the Noobs vs. Vets vs. Noobs, or whatever the name may be. Your right I think people would like multiple small teams headed by a single vet.

[rdonj]

The game being officially over now, the game's threads are now archived. The archive is here. (http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/noobs-vs-vets-iii-archive-f6/)

[Squirrelloid]

I could be convinced to play NvV:Alumni or multiteam N+V. I'm getting my first taste of lategame now, but I imagine i probably fall into middling experienced category at this point.

[iainuki]

I'd like to play in some more games structured around teams, it was a fun experience. I'd love to participate in some of the other formats.