Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. Game Over. Supplicants Triumph!

[GrudgeBringer]

Not to hijack this thread, but could someone tell chrispederson the next time you see him to clear out his in-box....:rolleyes:

Thanks, Grudge

[Gandalf Parker]

Having signed up for the multiplayer game, we now have to invent anti-uber-AI tactics.
Im abit confused by this. I would be bothered if anyone sprung this onto players. But I think that the AI and its level was well spelled out for this game long before anyone joined.

If I wanted to play against AI, I'd play a local single player game which I played maybe 2 times total.That would tend to be vanilla or low level AI which is often complained of. Part of the reason I agreed to do this, and plan to do more, is that the scenario option of AI is broken. Players are not able to easily play against boosted AIs without it being a server game. I appreciated a chance to show that the AI has more options than people know.

[ano]

Gandalf, as I said several times, I greatly appreciate all the work you've done here. Your AI could be wonderful in all-against-AI games. People do like them, I'm sure. But this was not supposed to be such kind of game, or at least, I didn't understand it clearly. The problem here is that fighting AI is at all times less interesting than fighting people. Also, while you did a tremendous amount of work of modding all this, I don't really think you made the Dominions AI smarter, you just gave it the bonuses that make it perform much better (well, I may be mistaken here, of course). What I see now is boosted in many aspects AI with enormous hordes of troops (normal behaviour for AI). Maybe I haven't yet seen its full potential, of course... But anyway, for me Dominions is definitely not fighting AI.

p.s. Also, I never saw the exact explanations of what bonuses AI has, only general words. Even now I may only be guessing.
p.p.s. As mentioned above, I don't want to spam the thread with complains. I'm also not accusing anyone of anything, just expressing my opinion. Septimius, you did want opinions. This is it.

[Septimius Severus]

Well, its still very early yet, lets see how things pan out. A few things in this game, settings, BI mod (to keep the AI from recruiting chaff), Gandalf's work, are intended to make the AI more challenging. But of course, short of rewriting the AI game code, there are limits on what can be done.

Anyway, right Ano, I did want opinions on the difficulty level and thanks for your suggestions. The AI is stated part of the game and a strategic element, but I will do my best to make sure it is not the whole game. I'm closing the poll. On a scale of 1-5, people seemed to favor #3. Thanks for responding.

If, Ano the AI is boring to ya and not a challenge at all, feel free to kill em off or ignore them as you like. There's no law that says you have to fight them, Children of Crom is ready for ya whenever you want to come over and see us. If the AI is not giving you the beat down you want, I am sure someone else will be happy to do so. :D

And, Ano whats with that gold you keep sending me? Psychological Warfare? :p It won't work.

[rdonj]

Personally, I think it would be better to do no indies for the next game. That would help remove the feeling of the AI recruiting walls of chaff. While the BI mod does help a lot with that, the AI will still use every opportunity to spam units at you without rhyme or reason. The major consequences of this to players are the removal of recruitable indy commanders and mages, which is unfortunate. But those could be added back in, if you are willing to spend the time on it in mapmaking, or you could use something like my mod that adds some indies back in. Or you could use semi-rand. Lots of options :)


I don't think anyone is complaining that the AI is not a challenge ;) I think it is just not the kind of challenge that Ano would prefer. I think the inclusion of AI nations is probably one of the most controversial aspects of the series. The last one may as well not even be a human VS game, with the likely strength of the AIs. They will probably occupy all human attention, and possibly even wipe out entire teams by themselves. I would instead bill it as a survival game, and leave out some of the other elements. But I think also that the bonuses given to the AI should be known about pre-game. Anyway, this is just what I think, feel free to ignore me :)

As far as that game goes, it seems likely the AI is going to have to be taken down by a concerted effort from the players. Bickering is likely to just leave you all weakened. Even normal AIs can be a bit of a pain to deal with. Jacked up ones like this one are probabl going to be show stealers :P

[Wrana]

By the way, one thing I don't particularly like about these AIs are troops from other nations. Would it not be possible to restrict such add-ons to troops from other eras or something such? Just to keep things thematically sound? Not that this would prove to be much concern with Ermor/R'lyeh in the 3rd game, of course...

[Gandalf Parker]

Its just sharing between the allies (as closely as I could arrange it). Its rather interesting which ones do and dont use it. And Id like to know how taking the capital works.

[Numahr]

So far, for me, these AIs are like super-independent. Interesting challenge shaping the world before we get to the later apocalypse. Fighting hard against AIs knowing that they are not even the real enemy is kind of exciting ;)

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for the input. I am always looking for ways to improve the series, so all suggestions will be taken into consideration for the next game. I certainly don't want the AI to become the entire focus of the game (and if I can help it, it won't be). If we need to do some AI toning down, it will be done and even though I like to have fun with the genocide stuff, rest assured we've no intention of actually murdering players or pitting them against insurmountable odds. :D Next poll will be on the Merc.

I do agree with Numahr a bit, I do like these mixed unit AIs, brings a fresh challenge. Sorta of like fighting the armies of TC, the varied units makes finding the right tactics intriguing. Certainly don't want AI that are pushovers or can be rushed in the first few turns.

I enjoy playing against both AI and humans. Some NvV and team play purists, as Rdonj mentioned, don't like the AI and RPG elements, and I understand this. Nothing yet devised can entirely replace the human element. And the scenario/RPG elements appeal to some and not to others.

However, I am quite impressed by the advancements in game AI that have taken place over the years. Contrary to what we might think though, the AI does not do things without rhyme or reason as humans may sometimes be said to do. The AI/comp can only do what its told to do. That being said, I'd love to play against an AI that fully approximates how a human would react and I think many AI programmers have attempted to do this by incorporating learning routines, personalities, or even random actions in an attempt to mimic human behaviour. Thus what seems to us to be nonsensical may either be an attempt at that goal or simply our lack of understanding of the programming logic behind it.

Rdonj, regarding the BI mod, actually only two indie commanders are made unsuable by the mod, The Barbarian Chief and Horse Tribe Chief, all other mages and commanders and a good number of the more "useful" (a somewhat subjective statement) units are still recruitable. Adding back in some units that humans actually might actually find some uses for is certainly very easy to do.

Game note: Thanks to rdonj, for coming aboard in a limited advisory capacity for Children of Crom.

[ano]

Septimius
And, Ano whats with that gold you keep sending me? Psychological Warfare? It won't work.
I am sure you do need gold so never mind.

rdonj
As far as that game goes, it seems likely the AI is going to have to be taken down by a concerted effort from the players. Bickering is likely to just leave you all weakened. Even normal AIs can be a bit of a pain to deal with. Jacked up ones like this one are probabl going to be show stealers :P
I did suggest an organized attack before but nobody bothered to answer. Go and kill the AI or it will come for you.

Gandalf Parker
Its just sharing between the allies (as closely as I could arrange it).
Are they allied with the corner AI's as well? Eriu recruits a lot of Vaetti.

[Septimius Severus]

I did suggest an organized attack before but nobody bothered to answer. Go and kill the AI or it will come for you.
I've asked Tonno to start a thread on the Deva's Den for coordination of AI attacks (look for it shortly). Participation is of course up to each team. I am all for it of course, as I've always said. Don't think anyone can afford to ignore them completely. You seemed to be spoiling for a fight with humans so that is why I said you can ignore them if you want to.

[Squirrelloid]

Regarding BI: Not making the horse tribe commander available but making the heavy cavalry commander available seems really silly. The horse tribe commander is useful because he's move 3. The heavy cavalry commander is in fact pretty useless relative to other indie commanders (move 2, more expensive than indie commander, etc...).

[ano]

That's absolutely true

[Gandalf Parker]

Gandalf Parker
Its just sharing between the allies (as closely as I could arrange it).Are they allied with the corner AI's as well? Eriu recruits a lot of Vaetti.
They have NAPs with the AIs in the corner.
But what you are seeing is the population of that second castle which they get as if it was a conquered castle. That poptype seemed semi appropriate to a fairie-type nation.

[Wrana]

They have NAPs with the AIs in the corner.

You mean there is a possibility to program NAP in an AI? For scenario, I mean? Instead of an alliance?

[Gandalf Parker]

Basically the #allies map command is a NAP with no time limit.
#allies

specific AI will not attack AI
The extended alliance of sharing units is new.

And a cool thing about the old map-based allies command is that its one of the few commands that does not care if that nation is in the game or not. Its one of the few that works as "IF the nation is in the game and IF the nations are both AI THEN they will be allied". It doesnt give an error if that nation isnt in the game. I wish more of the commands worked that way. Many of them require that the nation be in the game and be AI which is a problem since the scenario command is broken. You cant force a nation to be in, and ai, without server commands.

But if you wanted to, you could create lots and lots of ally commands covering all of the nations and add it to a map. So that whatever nations are in as AIs, they will be allied. Or you could create what you feel are logical alliances (undead with blood, holy with holy, nature with nature, man with man) which means different games on that map could go very differently depending on what nations are in as computer players.

[Numahr]

Gandalf,
Where can I learn who to use these commands? I went to the modding tutorial, but there is nothing about such scripting. I am very interested, where should I go / what should I do?

[Septimius Severus]

Regarding BI: Not making the horse tribe commander available but making the heavy cavalry commander available seems really silly. The horse tribe commander is useful because he's move 3. The heavy cavalry commander is in fact pretty useless relative to other indie commanders (move 2, more expensive than indie commander, etc...).Hehe, that's a question you'll probably want to address to the mod's creator, Edi. I've just incorporated it unaltered for our games so far. But a good suggestion for a possible alteration in the future.

[rdonj]

Gandalf,
Where can I learn who to use these commands? I went to the modding tutorial, but there is nothing about such scripting. I am very interested, where should I go / what should I do?

There are two pdfs in your documents folder. One is the modding manual. The other is the mapping manual. You'll want to look up the mapping manual for map-oriented commands like that.

[ano]

What does it mean? Now server shows that Ermor's turn is not uploaded. but a few hours ago it was shown as uploaded. How could this happen?
I have a turn of Ermor locally and I may reupload it but is a pretty weird situation because if someone uploads a turn and then it mysteriously disappears and he stales... Meh... I hate rehosts but in such a situation I would understand a person, whose turn just vanished, being very angry.

[ano]

4 hours left till hosting. Perhaps I will wait a couple of hours with reuploading the turn. Maybe Gandalf will look at the issue...

[Gandalf Parker]

Running a verify on the 2h files seems to show that most of the 2h files are for turn 9, but ermors is for turn 7. This would seem to be an advantage of direct connect over email. Its saying immediately that it has no turn file yet for Ermor for this turn

[ano]

Ermor's file showed up as fine a few hours ago (since yesterday, actually). Only Ulm was left.
Well, no problem, I'll reupload it. Hope this doesn't happen again.

[ano]

Also, how could it happen that there's a turn 7 file for Ermor? We could suppose it was left from previous turn but that's impossible because previous turn was turn 8. So, the server somehow accepted that turn 7 file or it is just not the file that was uploaded.

[rdonj]

The llamaserver doesn't accept incorrectly numbered turns, so it's not really problem for it. Certainly though, it seems to be a good idea to use direct connect for your server.

[ano]

The llamaserver doesn't accept incorrectly numbered turns, so it's not really problem for it.
Yes, and actually it looks strange that invalid turn .2h's pass server verification.. This should be implemented by Dominions engine itseld, shouldn't it?

[ano]

Ok, 3 hours left and I submitted Ermor's turn. And I really hope situation like this doesn't occur in future.

[Gandalf Parker]

The llamaserver doesn't accept incorrectly numbered turns, so it's not really problem for it.Yes, and actually it looks strange that invalid turn .2h's pass server verification.. This should be implemented by Dominions engine itseld, shouldn't it?
It is. It wasnt showing an accepted file for Ermor.
Plus the file verify command which is part of dom3 (dom3 --verify gamename). LLama was shown it and uses the same principle to check his. By advantage of direct over email I meant in general, not comparing how the two servers manage.

The new ermor file sent does now check as turn 9, and the game shows it received, so we should not have a problem.

[ano]

Ok, I will not argue. Perhaps 3 people were just blind :) Hope this doesn't happen again.
Thanks for your input.

But... Just another question already asked above.

Also, how could it happen that there's a turn 7 file for Ermor? We could suppose it was left from previous turn but that's impossible because previous turn was turn 8. So, the server somehow accepted that turn 7 file or it is just not the file that was uploaded.
How would you explain this? If the server did NOT accept the invalid turn (or no turn was sent) then there should have been turn 8, not 7 (Could be 7 if Ermor staled the previous turn but he didn't). I can't explain the situation for myself and I'm still pretty sure that it was showing only Ulm with a cross a few hours ago. But again, let's just hope it doesn't happen again.

And regarding DC vs PBEM concepts, what I like in PBEM is that you can always see what you have sent. Any email server or local email client store outgoing email. And now I just have no proof to my words and can't prove them even to myself:)

[Gandalf Parker]

I didnt say it refused a turn 7 file. Just that it didnt count it.
Id have to do some testing on sending in old files to get an answer.
Im also hopeful it doesnt happen again. :)
But we all know from experience that at least such things can be seen prior to a hosting.

You can verify the files you have at your end the same as I did. Using the --verify switch. And possibly use one of the backup utilities posted in order to store a copy of the file you sent

[Septimius Severus]

I guess, just like PBEM, it takes time for players unfamiliar with direct connect to get used to the way it works. I know it took me a bit to get used to it. Now that I am, I do like it. But I don't know why a check would be there and then disappear(haven't had it happen to me) unless their was some lag time or something between upload and server recognition. Maybe the log file contains more details.

Waiting on Ulm only. I might have to submit for him.

[ano]

God damn!
After all this *** with Ermor C'tis has got a "your CD key was used on multiple instances". Yes, it was the same key but it was the same CPU, and, IIRC, turns can be perfectly submitted from the same machine if it is the same instance of Dominions... So basically I staled instead of Ermor. And I have no clue why. :(
Waiting on Ulm only. I might have to submit for him.
You see?! I also did submit turn for Ermor....

[chrispedersen]

Ano, please see my pm

[Wrana]

You see?! I also did submit turn for Ermor....
No, I actually wasn't present at my home PC. And I couldn't send it from work, direct connection and all... :p
Still, I hope you was able to put your turn, wasn't you?
If necessary I personally would agree for rollback.

[ano]

If necessary I personally would agree for rollback.
No, no... No rollbacks.
After my anger has passed, it seems to me that the problem is that the turn of Ermor was saved on another machine (and Dom copy) and I just submitted it from my computer without entering and saving. This could be the problem but still pretty weird.

Thanks, Chris, for your input! I'll consider your suggestion as well.

[Septimius Severus]

Alright, it is turn 10 (we will be going to 40 hours as of turn 11).

Time for my score graph analysis:

Expansion vs. Indies phase is almost over (36 indies left)

Expansion/all out war vs. AI or between human teams becomes increasingly likely. It should be pointed out that war between teams is not yet completely necessary at this juncture and could leave the parties in a weakened state. Victory conditions allow for any team (including the AI) to actually win the game.

C'tis and TC are tied for province leader at 18. Good job by the crafty Ano.

The Usurpers Mictlan is doing very well at 17 province. This must be due to the courageous Algae Nymph.

Atlantis is hanging in there at 13 provinces. How's it going Zegc? Looking for more discounts and services soon. Maybe buy one, get one free or something. :D

Among human team members, C'tis unsurprisingly leads in gold income, and Shinuyama leads in gem income.

An AI start has fallen, and the Supplicants have picked it up. Giving them 5 VPs overall (22 needed to win).

It's mostly downhill for the AI from now on. They've will likely have reached their maximum expansion very soon.

Good luck!

[ano]

An AI start has fallen, and the Supplicants have picked it up. Giving them 5 VPs overall.
It is false. All the rest is probably true. I'm just curious who will be able to tear the 120 PD on AI castle down along with all Mammoths, iceclads, longbowmen etc..
Suggesting that we could in 10 first turns capture a castle with 120 PD and 800 defense, well... You overestimate us :)

[Septimius Severus]

An AI start has fallen, and the Supplicants have picked it up. Giving them 5 VPs overall.
It is false. All the rest is probably true. I'm just curious who will be able to tear the 120 PD on AI castle down.

False? How so? The game is only supposed to award a VP if you are in control of a castle from my understanding. One castle must have fallen, I didn't say it was the capital.

Included in that PD is a bunch of militia and chaff from what I can tell as well.

[ano]

Think of it. The answer is pretty simple.

Also, if you're tracking the graphs you may notice that the turns Shiunyama got the VP and the castle are different turns so your suggestion is just impossible

[Septimius Severus]

My mistake your right, I hadn't noticed that the AI team still possesses 2 VPs each. So it wasn't a start that had fallen apparently. Oh No! I hope it was a sea province and not what I think it might have been. But Atlantis is short a VP (if they had been able to get all 5 sea). So it could very likely have been a sea province. :) Well, still gives your team the human VP lead at 5.

[AlgaeNymph]

The Usurpers Mictlan is doing very well at 17 province. This must be due to the courageous AlgaeNymph.Thanks, but the credit should go to my captain. I never would've thought to...nope, that'd be telling.

[ano]

I hope it was a sea province and not what I think it might have been.
Septimius, again, all info can be gained from the stats. HoF this time :)

I never would've thought to...nope, that'd be telling.
You'll tell us after the game what it was. I'm curious :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Whoever got AI caps, could you PM me and fill in some info for me?
What nation. What did you come up against? Did it do well?
What did the cap have as sites, and what did it allow you access to?

[Wrana]

You'll tell us after the game what it was. I'm curious :)

Second this. ;)

[AlgaeNymph]

I shall, I've always been good with words.

[ano]

Included in that PD is a bunch of militia and chaff from what I can tell as well.
You know, LA Ermor is feared for its hordes of "chaff" as well... I just want to see how and when you are going to clear the half of screen of troops. Be it chaff or not.
Btw, it is also a thing that should not have been included, IMO. The hordes of AI are enormous without this terrific PD amount.

[Gandalf Parker]

Included in that PD is a bunch of militia and chaff from what I can tell as well.
Btw, it is also a thing that should not have been included, IMO. The hordes of AI are enormous without this terrific PD amount.
I debated and debated that amoung other things. Then decided to let myself off the hook with an easy out. If its supposed to be level 6 of 10 then I let 6/10's decide many numeric factors

[ano]

No problem, Gandalf. It just seems to me that Septimus underestimates this amount of PD a bit. Calling it "chaff" is actually the same as calling so ermorian undead legions. Yes, they are chaff but go beat them :)

[Septimius Severus]

Yes, I was going to check the HOF to see if one of my own creations were dead, apparently not so.

For the record, I did think the amount of PD a bit high (perhaps a bit of an understatement, cuz its more than twice what it was last game) but the AI is/was Gandalf's show to a some extent. I certainly don't underestimate it. It will be difficult to capture the caps most certainly, and they will likely be the last to fall, but I don't think it is impossible or insurmountable.

[ano]

I was speaking not about the capital, actually. Such PD for a secondary fort just seems a bit high to me. But it doesn't matter much, of course

[Septimius Severus]

I was speaking not about the capital, actually. Such PD for a secondary fort just seems a bit high to me. But it doesn't matter much, of course

Correct, I did ask Gandalf to consult the previous work in deciding certain things. If the first game is used as a gauge, the secondary forts should be less powerful.

But this is the kind of input Gandalf needs so that we can correct any issues in game 3. Thanks for that input.

[Numahr]

Dear friends,

Please take into account that I am going on trek the whole WE. So I would like to request for a delay for next turn. I will be able to play it by Sunday evening / Monday morning by GMT +5. In case that is not possible, Squirreloid is welcome to play my turn.

Thanks for understanding,

Numahr

[Septimius Severus]

Don't you fret none Ano. Children of Crom will take care of the secondary forts for you so your team can concentrate on other things! :D Just leave it to us.

Thanks Numahr for that notice, we are going to 40 hour turns as of turn 11, if a delay is needed by your team, they'll let me know.

[ano]

In case that is not possible, Squirreloid is welcome to play my turn.
This would be the best solution, of course, if possible...

[Septimius Severus]

For game 3 recommendations:

PD (if used) should be reduced on both caps and secondary forts, secondary forts should have less PD.

Perhaps enable one or two other useful units on the BI mod (always thought Barbarians were useful). I think Horse Tribe Chiefs were disabled because Horse Tribe Cavalry was also disabled (probably need both).

I think I will likely go with 4 human teams of 3 nations each (makes it easier to place on a square random map). AI team might comprise 4 nations. Haven't decided about a merc yet.

Here's a preliminary breakdown including pretenders (all LA pretenders):

Heavenly Realm: Air, Astral, Water

Caelum
Utgard
Plus Choice of Bogarus or Midgard

Standard Pretender choices:

Oracle, Virtue, Destroyer of Worlds, Lady of Fortune, Celestial General, Male Titan, Lord of the Sky, Son of the Heavens, Father of Winters, Daughter of the Dawn, Son of the Sun (Astral), Son of Fenrer, Manticore, Son of Neifel, Allfather, Asynja, Jade Emperor, Phoenix (maybe), Blue Dragon

Earthly Realm: Earth, Nature, Water

Pangaea
Patala
Plus Choice of Agartha or Ulm or Pythium

Standard Pretender Choices: Sphinx (or Monolith), Great Mother, Forge Lord, Wyrm, Ageless Olm, Female Titan, Cyclops, Lord of War, Keeper of the Bridge, Great Black/White Bull, Lady of Springs, Mother of Rivers, Lady of Love, Gorgon, Carrion Dragon, Lord of the Wild, Lord of Fertility, Lord of the Forest, Divine Serpent, Mother of Monsters, Father/Mother of Serpents, Nataraja, Lord of Rebirth, Green Dragon

Underworld Realm: Fire, Death, Blood

Abysia
C'tis
Plus Choice of Gath or Mictlan

Standard Pretender Choices: Fountain of Blood, Moloch, Prince of Death, Lord of the Night, Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Smoking Mirror, Ghost King, Master Lich, Lich Queen, Lich, Saurolich, Deva, Bog Mummy, Dracolich, Vampire Queen, Solar Disc, Scorpion King, Son of the Sun (Fire), Son of the Fallen, Risen Oracle, Red Dragon

Collegium Arcanum: (Rainbow theme level 6 max in all paths when designing pretenders)

Arco
Jomon
T'ien Chi'

And option to replace Arco, Jomon, or TC with one of the unchosen nations of the three realms.

Standard Pretender Choices: Colossal Head, Baphomet, Divine Glyph, Monolith, Freak Lord, Bi**ch Queen, Great Enchantress, Frost Father, Arch Mage, Arch Druid, Great Sage, Serpent King, Master Druid, Crone, Partholonian Sorceress, Master Alchemist, Great Warlock, Divine Emperor, Arch Seraph, Skratti

Gandalf's GENOCIDE team (4 nations):

Man
Ermor
Marignon
One other nation, possibly R'lyeh.

Standard Pretender Choices: Sacred Statue, anything else not listed.

[Septimius Severus]

24/25 hours have been added to the current turn due the request by Numahr and Captain Squirreloid having indicated a preference against other arrangements for turn submission .

Unless a captain chooses to make other arrangements (having someone else submit, etc), a delay request by a team member will stand. Quick host is still on, so if someone changes their mind, the turn can get in well before then.

Thanks.

[Numahr]

What happened? I was playing my turn, and when I finished, I connected, and then I announced me that a new turn was ready! I looked, it did not take into account half of my moves!!!!! :( :(

Not a disaster, but a annoyance...

Anyway I'm back

[Numahr]

OK I understand what happened. When I "Quit and Save", my half-finished turn is actually sent to me the servor... and if I am the last, the turn is hosted with my half-finished turn!

That is a real problem, it means we cannot play our turn in several installments, or maybe we have to turn off our internet connexion?

Really annoying.

[ano]

and if I am the last, the turn is hosted with my half-finished turn!
You were not the last, I sent a turn for C'tis when Pythium was in. Yes, this is a common problem with direct connect. To avoid it you need to download your turn and immediately disconnect. And not connect until you're finished

[Gandalf Parker]

Not impossible. Its done alot like email.
When you get your turn, disconnect from the server then reopen it as a local game.
When you want your turn sent, connect to the server.

[Willburn]

PD 120+ ai in a regular fortress is just madness

[Septimius Severus]

and if I am the last, the turn is hosted with my half-finished turn!
You were not the last, I sent a turn for C'tis when Pythium was in. Yes, this is a common problem with direct connect. To avoid it you need to download your turn and immediately disconnect. And not connect until you're finished

Not really a big problem once you get used to hitting exit after selecting and downloading whatever nation's turn files you want.

I admit though, it happened to me once :o, I was the last to submit my turn, and out of habit not being used to direct connect, I went to the connect menu first instead of the "Play existing games menu" and my previously saved and half finished .2h file was uploaded and the turn hosted. :doh: Now though, I just download all my team's turns and hit exit and I can view/play them all offline. All my team members can do likewise. Just remember to hit 'quit without saving' if your just viewing another players turn.

[Wrana]

For game 3 recommendations:
...Perhaps enable one or two other useful units on the BI mod (always thought Barbarians were useful). I think Horse Tribe Chiefs were disabled because Horse Tribe Cavalry was also disabled (probably need both).
Second for Barbarians. Horse Tribe Cavalry may be somewhat weak. But their chiefs are definitely quite useful. I'm not sure, though, whether AI has tendency to accumulate them - in any case that would be better than accumulation of infantry commanders...

Here's a preliminary breakdown including pretenders (all LA pretenders):

Heavenly Realm: Air, Astral, Water

Caelum
Utgard
Plus Choice of Bogarus or Midgard

Standard Pretender choices:

Oracle, Virtue, Destroyer of Worlds, Lady of Fortune, Celestial General, Male Titan, Lord of the Sky, Son of the Heavens, Father of Winters, Daughter of the Dawn, Son of the Sun (Astral), Son of Fenrer, Manticore, Son of Neifel, Allfather, Asynja, Jade Emperor, Phoenix (maybe), Blue Dragon
I'd say Bogarus and either Utgard or Midgard in this case.
And would probably remove Big Bad Wolf from Pretenders...

Earthly Realm: Earth, Nature, Water

Pangaea
Patala
Plus Choice of Agartha or Ulm or Pythium

Standard Pretender Choices: Sphinx (or Monolith), Great Mother, Forge Lord, Wyrm, Ageless Olm, Female Titan, Cyclops, Lord of War, Keeper of the Bridge, Great Black/White Bull, Lady of Springs, Mother of Rivers, Lady of Love, Gorgon, Carrion Dragon, Lord of the Wild, Lord of Fertility, Lord of the Forest, Divine Serpent, Mother of Monsters, Father/Mother of Serpents, Nataraja, Lord of Rebirth, Green Dragon
Maybe remove Nataraja to Heavenly team? And maybe add Jomon here - they seem to be mostly themed around Earth/Water in LA...

Underworld Realm: Fire, Death, Blood

Abysia
C'tis
Plus Choice of Gath or Mictlan

Standard Pretender Choices: Fountain of Blood, Moloch, Prince of Death, Lord of the Night, Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Smoking Mirror, Ghost King, Master Lich, Lich Queen, Lich, Saurolich, Deva, Bog Mummy, Dracolich, Vampire Queen, Solar Disc, Scorpion King, Son of the Sun (Fire), Son of the Fallen, Risen Oracle, Red Dragon
Maybe Abyssia or Mictlan? I would also move Solar Disk to Heavenly team and maybe remove Risen Oracle altogether (he is very Agarthan, but not particularly thematic for Earth team...).

Collegium Arcanum: (Rainbow theme level 6 max in all paths when designing pretenders)

Arco
Jomon
T'ien Chi'

And option to replace Arco, Jomon, or TC with one of the unchosen nations of the three realms.

Standard Pretender Choices: Colossal Head, Baphomet, Divine Glyph, Monolith, Freak Lord, Bi**ch Queen, Great Enchantress, Frost Father, Arch Mage, Arch Druid, Great Sage, Serpent King, Master Druid, Crone, Partholonian Sorceress, Master Alchemist, Great Warlock, Divine Emperor, Arch Seraph, Skratti[/QUOTE]
Pythium would be quite thematic here.

Gandalf's GENOCIDE team (4 nations):

Man
Ermor
Marignon
One other nation, possibly R'lyeh.

Standard Pretender Choices: Sacred Statue, anything else not listed.
Not sure about Man here, but...

[rdonj]

I say the genocide team should all be Gandalfs.

[chrispedersen]

With the name of genocide, how can you NOT give them La Ermor and LA Rlyeh?

Now that would be a fun challenge.. allied death dominions ....
having to fight with a declining population....

[Septimius Severus]

For the AI recommendations, I think I will generally suggest to Gandalf to tone it down in terms of PD, starting force size, and production capacity. I do like the mixed unit recruitment though.

Regarding the three four armed divinities, I confess I did not base the distribution on Hindu mythology from which these are obviously derived. If I do, well the Deva might actually be in the heavenly realm, the Destroyer of Worlds? might be in the underworld ream (though it has air and thunder). The Nataraja apparently means Lord of Dance, with no native paths might could go either way, so stuck it in Earth realm. I can change the native magic on these though. Frankly I just wanted to give each team access to one. Agree about the Son of Fenrer. Risen Oracle is an undead unit, though Agarthan, it seemed appropriate in the Underworld realm, along with the PoD and other such creatures. Will move those immobiles from the rainbow team to Gandalf's team. A couple of others I haven't decided on like the Shedu, etc. If people want to give me their top 10 thematic picks for each of the realms pretenders, I could drop ones which people generally wouldn't take.

Ano and Squirrel, how are your team's fairing against the AI? I may consider suspending the prohibition on merc vs AI attacks temporarily till turn 20.

[rdonj]

Mmmm... Ermor and R'lyeh... enhanced with recruitable thugs, insane starting armies, and huge gem incomes. That certainly says genocide to me. The game was going to be all vs the AI anyway, so why not? :)

[Wrana]

Not impossible. Its done alot like email.
When you get your turn, disconnect from the server then reopen it as a local game.
When you want your turn sent, connect to the server.

By the way, could you include a turn number on your info page? It would be easier to see whether the next turn was already hosted...

[Squirrelloid]

Eh, the AI doesn't strike me as that hard. It has a lot of material, but that's only to be expected.

The 120 PD is kind of ridiculous. I'm kind of hoping they pull a +PD event and wrap over to 5 =). (125PD is the max - if you get an event that gives you more you wrap around through 0).

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not really writing any info pages. Just showing files from the game.
But the Scores does have a turn number on it.
http://navii.dom3minions.com/

As for the PD, I was led to believe that all PD sucked. :)
Sorry for that.

[Gandalf Parker]

Crap missed my edit window.
Added note: realized I can have the chk.cgi grab the turn lines from the scores.html
Now the chk cgi also shows a turn count. the last turn turned in I believe

[Willburn]

i thought we where at 40 hours per turn now? I just finished my turn and went to upload and recived a new turn straight away and most of my moves had not been done.

[Wrana]

Nataraja was meant to be more a generic representative of warlike Hindu deity. I think that Underworld realm should include a rarely-seen Dracolich among its Pretenders... and it looks like I staled with my turn! :doh: :D

[ano]

Willburn
It looks like exactly the same problem Numahr has a few posts ago. You should not upload your semi-done turn to the server until it is finished.
You need to
1) connect and download your turn
2) disconnect
3) go to local games
4) play your turn
5) upload

And do not connect to server until you finished your turn as you don't want your half-done turn uploaded. This is what happened to you now most likely

[Willburn]

OK. I am sad for my team I first suicide on a 120+ pd wall in a secondary fortress then stale a turn. Appologizing to my team captain. The most sad part is the turn must have gone exactly when i was about to upload because it was at 40hours when i recived it (when i was about to upload the turn 12)

[Septimius Severus]

Nataraja was meant to be more a generic representative of warlike Hindu deity. I think that Underworld realm should include a rarely-seen Dracolich among its Pretenders... and it looks like I staled with my turn! :doh: :D

Thought I already included the Dracolich/Bog Mummy in the underword realm. Instead of attempting to distribute the unmodified 3 four armed divinities among each realm, I could use modified versions of the rather generic Nataraja instead. Each with appropriate magic. The heavenly one having Awe, Astral, Air, maybe a lightning weapon/mind blast and/or the apotropaic weapons of the Deva, the earthly one having Earth, Nature, and maybe an appropriate earth effect, and the underworld one having fire, death, and fear and maybe a plague weapon or something appropriate.

[Wrana]

Instead of attempting to distribute the unmodified 3 four armed divinities among each realm, I could use modified versions of the rather generic Nataraja instead. Each with appropriate magic. The heavenly one having Awe, Astral, Air, maybe a lightning weapon/mind blast and/or the apotropaic weapons of the Deva, the earthly one having Earth, Nature, and maybe an appropriate earth effect, and the underworld one having fire, death, and fear and maybe a plague weapon or something appropriate.

Yes, it may be just the thing. I wouldn't add fancy special abilities, though, as they would be hell to balance against cost. Adding appropriate paths may be enough.

[Squirrelloid]

Instead of attempting to distribute the unmodified 3 four armed divinities among each realm, I could use modified versions of the rather generic Nataraja instead. Each with appropriate magic. The heavenly one having Awe, Astral, Air, maybe a lightning weapon/mind blast and/or the apotropaic weapons of the Deva, the earthly one having Earth, Nature, and maybe an appropriate earth effect, and the underworld one having fire, death, and fear and maybe a plague weapon or something appropriate.

Yes, it may be just the thing. I wouldn't add fancy special abilities, though, as they would be hell to balance against cost. Adding appropriate paths may be enough.

... you do realize you're talking about a game that generally uses Vanilla rules. There is no balance to start with...

[Gandalf Parker]

Gandalf's GENOCIDE team (4 nations):

Man
Ermor
Marignon
One other nation, possibly R'lyeh.

Standard Pretender Choices: Sacred Statue, anything else not listed.
Not sure about Man here, but...
Im also not sure theme-wise.
But as the programmer Im happy to see Man there. Man, and Marignon, both follow the standard AI "thinking process" fairly well and can be expanded well. In this game when I view the turn files of the AI's Im mostly happy with how Man and Eriu are working with the expansions, and less happy with how Caelum and TienChi are seeming to ignore most of it. Oh well, lessons learned. LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh will have to be experimented with abit

--
feci quod potui, faciant meliora potentes

[Squirrelloid]

The AI is absolutely terrible using LA Ermor. Can you forbid them from spending gold on anything but forts and temples? Because otherwise they're going to do stupid stuff. (Ie, to make the AI any good for LA E, you basically have to use the NI mod).

[Gandalf Parker]

The AI is absolutely terrible using LA Ermor. Can you forbid them from spending gold on anything but forts and temples? Because otherwise they're going to do stupid stuff. (Ie, to make the AI any good for LA E, you basically have to use the NI mod).
Actually there are ways to do that without a mod. But the drawback is that they impact badly on neighbors even if they are allies

[Graeme Dice]

Actually there are ways to do that without a mod. But the drawback is that they impact badly on neighbors even if they are allies

No, you can't force the AI to not spend gold on troops unless it is absolutely incapable of recruiting any troops at all. And that is impossible to do via map commands unless you expect the AI to never expand to neighbouring territories, which means you need a mod to remove all independent troops that a LA ermor AI would spend gold on.

[Gandalf Parker]

It is possible. More "suggestion" than "force" but it does have an effect. :)
Altho, it should be said that all methods by map or mod only hold up thru early game and with some hope into mid game. The AI has no late game to even try and boost.

[Squirrelloid]

The sad part is it wouldn't be that hard to write a decent LA Ermor AI, but the game doesn't allow importation of custom AIs. (Basically, the scope of useful options for LA Ermor is really small, especially early on, so writing a 'script' for their early behavior would actually work rather well).

I suppose if someone was really motivated, they could figure out how to read from the .trn file, run a custom AI decision-making program on that information, and have it output a .2h file for Ermor's turn. But I think the anti-cheating measures probably make this quite difficult since you'd have to fool the server into believing it was a legitimate .2h file made by the game. And while you could enter the turn state into a separate program, and get a list of actions for you to perform, the goal is of course for the AI to actually play the turn, not just tell you how to play the turn. If someone has to manually open the Ermor turn its already defeated the point of an AI.

[Septimius Severus]

Yes, it may be just the thing. I wouldn't add fancy special abilities, though, as they would be hell to balance against cost. Adding appropriate paths may be enough. The deities in Hindu religion are apparently many faceted, so this is of course a simplification (neither can be said to be heavenly/ hellish) really just meant to meet the themes of the game. But I could name one Shiva (for the heavenly realm) or reuse Deva, one Nataraja, and one Asura or even Kali. The costing might be a bit more difficult as you indicated if I added effects or weapons. I suppose I could split the difference between the cost of the Deva and the Destroyer of Worlds (125+75) = 200/2 = 100 design points. Though, I personally would like to see Awe on one and fear on the other, and maybe animal awe or some earthly effect on the earthly realm divinity.

[Wrana]

... you do realize you're talking about a game that generally uses Vanilla rules. There is no balance to start with...
What I realize isn't what you are going to preach. :p

[Squirrelloid]

Anyone who would maintain 50point Gorgons are balanced against other options is crazy. (I could go on, but really, that's sufficient - clearly vanilla pretenders are not balanced or abominations like that wouldn't exist)

[Zeldor]

Septimius:

You like team games, you should get a teammate and join Preponderance 2 :) Well, everyone is welcomed.

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius:

You like team games, you should get a teammate and join Preponderance 2 :) Well, everyone is welcomed.

Yes, I am an avid supporter of team games in general, think they provide a nice change of pace from the regular, everyone for themselves type MP game, and a chance to work cooperatively, plan, strategize, communicate, get along with others, learn, etc, all things which can be beneficial in both our fantasy worlds and the real world. I also like vs. AI games as well, which can facilitate this same sort of cooperation and can be fun in their own right, especially against challenging AIs. Though I think I prefer team sizes larger than two players each. Wouldn't mind joining though, but I can't play personally until I am out of one of the games I am in (my personal limit is 2 games at a time). A good mix for me is 1 FFA and 1 team/vs.AI/RPG type game at a time, but it all depends on what you like and your free time. :) Thanks for posting it though.

[Septimius Severus]

I witnessed an interesting battle between Atlantis and Man. Atlantis has got some punch! The sky was filled with a storm of arrows from both sides.

The AI has thrown up a global, which anyone may feel free to dispel when they can (can even pool astral if needed between teams). The prohibition on human globals though still remains in effect till turn 50.

I am amending the merc rules slightly. As you all know when the merc makes an attack on behalf of a client that results in the capture of a province, the responsibility for that province then rests on the client (although we did stretch things a bit allowing the merc to keep the province in certain circumstances). My original thinking was that a PD of 1 should be set (which would defeat most enemy scouts) but it would also prevent the clients own scouts from claiming the province, so I think the client should have a choice of a PD of 0 or 1 as a base. If the client desires a higher PD, the merc can charge appropriately.

Speaking of the Merc, is everyone finding Atlantis to be useful/interesting so far?

[Wrana]

Anyone who would maintain 50point Gorgons are balanced against other options is crazy. (I could go on, but really, that's sufficient - clearly vanilla pretenders are not balanced or abominations like that wouldn't exist)

That's clearly excellent way of discussion - naming 1 example which isn't applicable for most cases (i.e., nations) and then making broad conclusions from that. Thanks for making my point for me. :D

[Wrana]

Sorry, it seems that 48 hours a turn would be needed now for me at least. :(

[ano]

We're now at 40. Does it really make much difference?

[Septimius Severus]

We are currently at 40 hours, and will be going to 48 hours automatically in 5 more turns. Not a big deal for me, I can wait the 5 turns and am fine as is, but I will understand if a majority of people feel they cannot make the interval as it stands. Wouldn't want anyone staling over 8 hours. So up to you guys really.

[zegc-ben]

Having 48 hours may really help me this week-end so I vote yes.

[chrispedersen]

Anyone who would maintain 50point Gorgons are balanced against other options is crazy. (I could go on, but really, that's sufficient - clearly vanilla pretenders are not balanced or abominations like that wouldn't exist)

That's clearly excellent way of discussion - naming 1 example which isn't applicable for most cases (i.e., nations) and then making broad conclusions from that. Thanks for making my point for me. :D

The original point was not pretenders, but that vanilla games aren't balanced.

I think Agartha is the best example of that. But there are hundreds more.

Tarts.
Bane Swords
Seduction
Fighting in the arena...

[ano]

CBM games are not balanced as well. Although I really respect CBM and don't have anything against it, saying that CBM is balanced is just funny. Well, it is more balanced than vanilla maybe, also it opens many new strategies (and does this much better than actually balancing) but many nations are still crappy and many are still uber. And the removal of gem generators increased this difference even more for nations like Machaka, MA Oceania or MA Ulm. Well, this game is just unbalanced as it is and to really balance it you need to sacrifice thematic aspects which obviously neither the devs nor QM want to do.

What about Bane swords and fighting at arena, btw? What does CBM change about these?

Regarding the gorgon, my 2 cents. Yes, gorgon for 50 points is really cheap but does it become really easy to win with Pan when you have the, let's say, EXNXA2 Gorgon (one of the most powerful builds)? No, it doesn't. And if the gorgon in vanilla is so uber, why doesn't it let Pangaea win here, there and everywhere? Just because it doesn't. And when we say something is uber and should be nerfed, we should probably look at it in the context of the nation.
But, YES, the Gorgon does make Sauromatia ultimately powerful and, of course, 50-point gorgon even more so. But not Pangaea. And when you nerf Sauro by increasing the cost of the Gorgon, you make the life of Pangaea (which is not too sweet) in all 3 eras even harder. And this doesn't bring more balance in general.

And regarding Agartha, especially MA Agartha. How does CBM help them by increasing the cost of another "uber" thing, the Risen Oracle? Is the Risen Oracle immensely powerful? Yes! Does it make Agartha uber? No.
In my opinion, in CBM MA (and maybe EA) Agartha, Machaka and LA (and maybe the others) Pangaea, MA (and EA) C'tis, MA Ulm and the others are much, much worse than they are in vanilla.

[chrispedersen]

I agree with many of your points ano. Thats why in the balance mod(shameless plug) I tried to give benes to the nations most affected if you turned off gem generators.

I dont' think that CBM is particularly nation balanced, but it is somewhat better balanced in a fashion that allows different units, and different strategies to be employed.

As for the gorgon, I agree completely. I increased the cost of the gorgon pretender, but then I added a pangean national version that was cheaper.

[ano]

CBM is good in many aspects, I don't argue with that but it is not balanced. And regarding the gem generators, I understand why people don't like them - they lead to games full of micro that often end in draws because people get tired or in Armageddon+GoH wins. While the first problem doesn't look like a problem to me at all (because I don't play much and devote much time to the game I play) the latter really is a problem. And it could be easily solved by banning Armageddon.

Oh, well... This discussion should probably have appeared in another thread but I do not want to prove anything to anybody. People play the game they like

[ano]

Btw, chris, when will you return to the game? Or are you already in?

[Squirrelloid]

Anyone who would maintain 50point Gorgons are balanced against other options is crazy. (I could go on, but really, that's sufficient - clearly vanilla pretenders are not balanced or abominations like that wouldn't exist)

That's clearly excellent way of discussion - naming 1 example which isn't applicable for most cases (i.e., nations) and then making broad conclusions from that. Thanks for making my point for me. :D

I could point out dozens of examples. Really, CBM gets it mostly right, and changes something like 70% of pretenders in some way. That's how far off Vanilla is.

[Squirrelloid]

CBM is good in many aspects, I don't argue with that but it is not balanced. And regarding the gem generators, I understand why people don't like them - they lead to games full of micro that often end in draws because people get tired or in Armageddon+GoH wins. While the first problem doesn't look like a problem to me at all (because I don't play much and devote much time to the game I play) the latter really is a problem. And it could be easily solved by banning Armageddon.

Oh, well... This discussion should probably have appeared in another thread but I do not want to prove anything to anybody. People play the game they like

CBM is not balanced *yet*. Its certainly better balanced than vanilla. Nation balance needs the most work.

I would maintain *pretenders* are pretty balanced in CBM. I mean, there's a couple that are still out of whack, but most of them are well-costed for what they do. (This necessarily means you can't make up for a weak nation with an undercosted pretender anymore, but nation balance is something that needs to be addressed anyway, fixing the pretenders possibly just made it more obvious).

[ano]

We may call it anyhow but nation balance in CBM is, most probably, worse than in vanilla. Yes, you may be happy, that PoD costs 125 instead of 75 and that weakish nations for whom PoD was nearly the only viable choice can't take it anymore. You may be happy that there's no more fever fetish that was nearly the only hope for Machaka to do at least something. You may be happy that there's no clam of pearls for MA C'tis which has nearly no chance in CBM now unless it is really, really lucky. Yes, you may live and be happy but it is nations, not pretenders, or fetishes, or clams what people are supposed to play for and lead to victory, aren't they?
And, once again, CBM is a very good mod with a lot of work in it and many, many good and balance-wise changes, many new strategies and options etc. It is more interesting to play, without doubt but it is not balanced and actually is pretty far from that.

[Gandalf Parker]

At this point its nearly 9000 lines of mod code covering (as far as I know) every nation in the game. Im also not sure where it would be balancing to. But since its new manager I think its possibly shifted more toward balance more along the line of one-to-one (chess) balance for dueling strategy style games on small to medium maps. In that regard it does appear to serve its purpose and earns the dedicated support of its followers.

The only real problem I have with CBM now is that its gotten so large that its become "know how to play Dom3" and "know how to play Dom3 CBm". Guides, lists, most answers all have to specifically mention whether they refer to Dom3 or CBm.

[Graeme Dice]

You may be happy that there's no clam of pearls for MA C'tis which has nearly no chance in CBM now unless it is really, really lucky.

Cheap communion slaves + death, nature, and astral mean that they will do just fine as long as they aren't attacked by multiple people, but then, no nation can survive that.

[pyg]

The only real problem I have with CBM now is that its gotten so large that its become "know how to play Dom3" and "know how to play Dom3 CBm". Guides, lists, most answers all have to specifically mention whether they refer to Dom3 or CBm.

Not really, the point of CBM is that all spells in the research tree should be worth casting, not just some of them. CBM should be easier for new players in that they can't go [as] wrong trying out something new. Generally for any given nation, CBM provides more viable choices than vanilla.

[Gandalf Parker]

Not really, the point of CBM is that all spells in the research tree should be worth casting, not just some of them. CBM should be easier for new players in that they can't go [as] wrong trying out something new. Generally for any given nation, CBM provides more viable choices than vanilla.
I understand your point. I know thats the mission.
I dont agree that it does that. But I do understand that it wants to.

[Septimius Severus]

The age old balance debate. :D Wonder how much about balance is subjective or contextual.

[ano]

Cheap communion slaves + death, nature, and astral mean that they will do just fine as long as they aren't attacked by multiple people, but then, no nation can survive that.
I didn't say "survive", actually. Surviving is not the aim of this game, really. For me, at least. I just said that they have little to no chance to win just from the start, but, of course, due to excellent troops and good magery they can survive very long.
You better tell me how you're going to play Machaka under CBM :):). But all this is just words, just like Baalz' guides.

[Squirrelloid]

We may call it anyhow but nation balance in CBM is, most probably, worse than in vanilla. Yes, you may be happy, that PoD costs 125 instead of 75 and that weakish nations for whom PoD was nearly the only viable choice can't take it anymore.

And who is that? What about all those nations which were good and could take an undercosted PoD? What about those nations which couldn't take an undercosted chassis like PoD?


You may be happy that there's no more fever fetish that was nearly the only hope for Machaka to do at least something.

Empirically disproven. Machaka beat the crap out of Vanheim in Land RAND, which is CBM 1.6.

(Machaka did die to Mictlan, but Mictlan jumped them while they were fighting Vanheim, and because they ran over a poorly played Shinuyama, they had a lot more material and had lost a lot less in their first war. So that's not really indicative of any nation balance issues necessarily.)

This isn't to say Machaka is necessarily good, but they're hardly hopeless.


You may be happy that there's no clam of pearls for MA C'tis which has nearly no chance in CBM now unless it is really, really lucky.

Empirically disproven, MA C'tis was 4th (admittedly a distant 4th) in Land RAND, and beat Pythium (a power nation in MA by any metric).

I think you're the only person I've ever seen claim MA C'tis is bad.


Yes, you may live and be happy but it is nations, not pretenders, or fetishes, or clams what people are supposed to play for and lead to victory, aren't they?

Sure, but you can't balance nations until everything else is balanced, because so much of the material is shared between nations. Most pretenders are available to multiple nations. Any item can be forged by any nation. Almost all spells can be cast by any nation. And so on. While these options remain unbalanced there's no good way to balance nations. (A great nation benefits disproportionately more from unbalanced options than a poor nation does).

So now that items and pretenders and spells have been (mostly) balanced, nation balancing can actually happen. Indeed, CBM has done some of that, but its only started making changes specifically for nation balance.

[ano]

Empirically disproven. Machaka beat the crap out of Vanheim in Land RAND, which is CBM 1.6.

Lol. Player always means much more than nation. And a seasoned vet like Wraithlord will in the most cases beat a newbie playing the uber-nation, be it Ashdod, Niefelheim, Mictlan or anything. But in a duel with a player of equal skill this means nothing. Also, one game can no way count as an empirical proof. As Wrana mentioned above, you arguments are a bit strange, not to say the least :)
Empirically disproven, MA C'tis was 4th (admittedly a distant 4th) in Land RAND, and beat Pythium (a power nation in MA by any metric).

I think you're the only person I've ever seen claim MA C'tis is bad.
Same here:):) . C'tis was played by Meglobob who has tons of experience and is a really good player
I know I should think the results of Land Rand are the ultimate truth but I'll probably won't do it. Also, there has been much discussion about MA C'tis (a couple of years ago) at the forums and there have very different opinions. Probably you missed that thread.
(A great nation benefits disproportionately more from unbalanced options than a poor nation does).
Very well. So, let's nerf all nations to the points where they become really poor and thus equal?

Once again, I don't say CBM is bad, it is very good. But in many, many aspects nation balance is even worse that in vanilla. That's what I think. If (or when) nation balance is improved, I'll hail QM but until it is I don't think that the word "balanced" is appropriate. And also, the 50-point gorgon that you started this discussion with is only a part of nation balance because it is available to 4 nations total.

[Squirrelloid]

Ano:
LandRAND and games like it seem to be the best testing ground for 'balance' because there's no diplomacy - diplomacy dominates any game balance issues when its conducted well. CBM 1.6 is also relatively new, or it would be easier to refer to more games.

Besides, if a 'hopeless' nation can do well at the hands of a 'veteran', then its not so hopeless, now is it?

Regarding the Gorgon - since all I can do is point to poorly priced examples, I pointed to one. There's *tons* of poorly priced pretenders. Indeed, if you chose a pretender in vanilla at random, chances are its poorly priced. The gorgon just happens to be one of the most obvious offenders. Pretenders like the PoD and Cyclops were also too cheap for what they did. Most of the rainbows were too expensive for what they did. And so on.

The correct response is not to say 'lol, he only provided one example', especially as I intimated a large number of other examples. Indeed, it should be blatantly obvious vanilla pretenders aren't balanced. (Look at the distribution of pretender chasses that are actually played, its pretty skewed towards a few choices in Vanilla games.) Why must I do the work of tracking down all the imbalanced pretender chasses to make the claim - presumption should be for the claim that the game is imbalanced because its a negative claim. Its the counter-claim that vanilla is balanced that requires proof. (And given the designers have explicitly said they weren't concerned with balance, well, its pretty obvious any such claim is doomed to failure.)

So by all means, prove Vanilla is balanced, or just accept that its not.

PS: Balance is a global claim over the entirety of the game. A single counter-example disproves the game is balanced. At which point it just remains to determine *how much* imbalance there is.

[Gandalf Parker]

It seemed balanced that the continual predictions of 'every game ends up' didnt seem to come about. But I dont really care if vanilla is balanced or not. I can see a need for a balance mod to be available for competitive play, and some going the other direction also. Altho, I think the chess mods (the ones which make nations match) are an extreme example.

CBM is someplace in the middle. But continually taking out the "worst" tactic only creates a new worst, along with finding out that the previous worst was actually the counter to the present one. I think that cbm just creates a different balance which is comfortable to some players. If anything, the efforts seem to go further toward creating the 'every game ends up' situation.

[Graeme Dice]

CBM is someplace in the middle. But continually taking out the "worst" tactic only creates a new worst, along with finding out that the previous worst was actually the counter to the present one.

Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? Have you ever played in a single MP game ever under your current name, or are you going to once again insinuate that you have a (outlawed by the rules) sockpuppet account that you've used to join games? Frankly, your mindless middle approach to defending the game gets tiring after seeing you preach it without any significant change in content for a half decade.

[ano]

IIRC, Gandalf has been playing MP since Dom 1. I recall some forums with the discussions of games with Gandlaf, Alex Podger and mass lesser air elementals. I only played SP at those times.

[ano]

I wonder who paid Atlantis for this stupid attack. Actually, I'm nearly sure it was Septimius because nobody else knows what is there (and I didn't know as well. If I knew, I would even bother with it). What was the aim of that, I'd like to know. Preventing me from hiring another amazon or showing me that you are able to capture VP's with ease? Or do you dislike the gold I'm sending you?
This province is nothing uber at all until very late game and even then I doubt I will need it. But if you have enough resources to pay Atlantis for such things, you're welcome. I'll take this into account

[Gandalf Parker]

Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? Have you ever played in a single MP game ever under your current name
Mostly I was burned out on MP play by Dom2. Most of my MP play of Dom3 is in beta group with the devs. You can ask people like Quantum Mechani and IronHawk since they were there (with heavy discussions of CBM by the way). Most of my CBM games were with Zens original "fix things" version. But I do play one now and then.
Most of my present MP games I dont play here. Im presently in two on the Matryx server. And one on a 3rd forum. The last MP game I played on this forum I believe was YARG. And before that the AAR game. Generally it takes a game with more interesting settings than King-of-the-Hill to get my attention anymore. Sorry about that.

Edited: the first YARG, not YARG2

[Wrana]

Its the counter-claim that vanilla is balanced that requires proof.
LOL. :D
Thanks again for proving my point for me. I think that you should just read your your juryspudence textbook again. It's you who make accusations/assumptions and it's on you that burden of proof lies. :) And if you are going to quote Popper here... :D
Returning to CBM. I spoke with QM on this very question and he said that between-nations balance is just not the purpose of this mod. I think he knows slightly more on this question than you do. :) I agree that its initial purpose was worthy. It just never lived up to it. And now I think it never would due to becoming just too large to be wieldy. As an example, I pointed out several mistypings (including some code duplications) during 3.14. I was thanked... and they still were there when I checked last time (at 3.16 appearance).
So you may preach at whatever length you want. CBM will itself prove you wrong time and again. And when it does not what is important (a balance between nations, as Ano pointed out), it doesn't matter whether it does better some issues for some nations. And some of their choices just do the game worse. Of course, if you consider the game's purpose to be that new players just couldn't make bad choice... but I'd say for this the Tetris is much better choice anyway! :D

[Wrana]

I wonder who paid Atlantis for this stupid attack. Actually, I'm nearly sure it was Septimius because nobody else knows what is there (and I didn't know as well. If I knew, I would even bother with it). What was the aim of that, I'd like to know. Preventing me from hiring another amazon or showing me that you are able to capture VP's with ease? Or do you dislike the gold I'm sending you?

Mr. Rabinovich is wanted to ask you just how much gold is there that came from and whether he could get his part? ;) Or more?

[Graeme Dice]

I spoke with QM on this very question and he said that between-nations balance is just not the purpose of this mod. I think he knows slightly more on this question than you do.

How nice. An appeal to authority and an is-ought fallacy all rolled into one. Can't you at least _try_ to make your arguments worth bothering to read?

[ano]

Wrana
I read your message twice and still don't understand it, sorry:)
I do keep sending gold to Septimius as a sign of "eternal love" if that's what your question is about.

[Squirrelloid]

Graeme: Is Wrana even making an argument? I haven't seen one. I mean, as far as I can tell his last post is just a random string of assertions with no point. Its not even worth trying to figure out what Wrana is trying to say - there's no content, so the fact you can actually identify a statement as fallacy means it made more sense than anything else in that post.

Anyone who can't make an actual point isn't worth any effort spent pointing out their logical fallacies. (But I suppose too much shouldn't be expected from someone who confuses an insistence that basic rules of logic be adhered to with Karl Popper...).

[Septimius Severus]

Nice debate, lets try to keep at least some of the focus of the thread on the game, though I do enjoy open and civil debate on range of issues. Wonder if we will resolve it here though.

Ano, you keep sending me 1 gold piece a turn. Doesn't bother me, not psyching me out either. Maybe the person responsible for the Atlantean attack also has that "eternal love" for you. Who knows.:D

Had two people ask for 48 hours before we hit 20, but the majority seem to be cool with the current schedule. Let me know if I am mistaken.

Btw, how do people like my thematic AI magic locations and associated retinue? fun/interesting/difficult/useful/not useful?

[ano]

Btw, how do people like my thematic AI magic locations and associated retinue? fun/interesting/difficult/useful/not useful?
My opinion is in the above post regarding your atlantean attack

[chrispedersen]

CBM is someplace in the middle. But continually taking out the "worst" tactic only creates a new worst, along with finding out that the previous worst was actually the counter to the present one.

Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? Have you ever played in a single MP game ever under your current name, or are you going to once again insinuate that you have a (outlawed by the rules) sockpuppet account that you've used to join games? Frankly, your mindless middle approach to defending the game gets tiring after seeing you preach it without any significant change in content for a half decade.

Ouch dude. What are the qualifications to have an opinion here?

Whats the big deal if somoene repeats an opinion. Air is free.

[chrispedersen]

Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? Have you ever played in a single MP game ever under your current name
Mostly I was burned out on MP play by Dom2. Most of my MP play of Dom3 is in beta group with the devs. You can ask people like Quantum Mechani and IronHawk since they were there (with heavy discussions of CBM by the way). Most of my CBM games were with Zens original "fix things" version. But I do play one now and then.
Most of my present MP games I dont play here. Im presently in two on the Matryx server. And one on a 3rd forum. The last MP game I played on this forum I believe was YARG. And before that the AAR game. Generally it takes a game with more interesting settings than King-of-the-Hill to get my attention anymore. Sorry about that.

Edited: the first YARG, not YARG2


I played Dom 1 a lot. The demo was so good I never bought the real thing. Dom 2 I bought, Dom3 likewise.

[Septimius Severus]

Btw, how do people like my thematic AI magic locations and associated retinue? fun/interesting/difficult/useful/not useful?
My opinion is in the above post regarding your atlantean attack
Yes, I saw it, are you speaking of one location or do you have knowledge of all 4 yet?

[ano]

How can I have knowledge until they are conquered? There's the only person who has knowledge and that's what I dislike in the concept. Knowledge should be equal throughout players so that nobody has an advantage
One more thing. Adding gryphons to the blood spot was a bad idea of yours because gryphons leave after one battle fought just like gladiators.Also, there was terrible starvation in that swamp because of many size-5 troops. So after I looked at the province with my scout, only the Deva and a few diseased defenders left there

[Graeme Dice]

Ouch dude. What are the qualifications to have an opinion here?

Ideally one should be an active player of multiplayer games to expect your opinion about multiplayer games to be considered useful.

Whats the big deal if somoene repeats an opinion. Air is free.

Actually it's not. Everytime Parker posts his same golden mean/mindless middle stuff he wastes the time of every single person who reads it. I consider my time valuable (at least $20/hour breakpoint for whether a project is worth undertaking), don't you?

[Septimius Severus]

How can I have knowledge until they are conquered? There's the only person who has knowledge and that's what I dislike in the concept. Knowledge should be equal throughout players so that nobody has an advantage.

Actually you could have some knowledge of troops in each one via scout, scry, spy, tentative scout attack, merc info, or other method. Though you would not know exact sites or recruitment. True, but as you'll recall I was hoping not to have to be in the game, to remain as impartial as possible, but alas, it could not be helped. I do try though to keep as much secret as possible and to try to forget other things.


One more thing. Adding gryphons to the blood spot was a bad idea of yours because gryphons leave after one battle fought just like gladiators.Also, there was terrible starvation in that swamp because of many size-5 troops. So after I looked at the province with my scout, only the Deva and a few diseased defenders left there.

Now that's the kinda feedback I'm looking for, why didn't ya speak up and give more details? I had thought you assassinated the Deva or something, was wondering how you could have dealt with those troops. What else can you tell me?

[ano]

And what else do you need to be told?
Assassinating the Deva was hardly possible but a horde of green lizards did their job ;)

But the province itself is pretty poor, IMO. I mean the sites, obviously. While, of course, they would be very useful for the Sanguinarium team

[Septimius Severus]

And what else do you need to be told?

Whatever else you'll tell me. :D Your team's troop concentrations and locations, pretender info, research levels, interactions with the merc, etc. All the stuff the captain of an oposing team might find useful.;) Thanks for your openness and input though.


Assassinating the Deva was hardly possible but a horde of green lizards did their job ;)

But the province itself is pretty poor, IMO. I mean the sites, obviously. While, of course, they would be very useful for the Sanguinarium team

Ah, if only we had a human played Sang team to make use of it. :D
Do you mind if another team makes use of it at least temporarily?

[ano]

Do you mind if another team makes use of it at least temporarily?
You may try :)

[chrispedersen]

Ouch dude. What are the qualifications to have an opinion here?

Ideally one should be an active player of multiplayer games to expect your opinion about multiplayer games to be considered useful.

Whats the big deal if somoene repeats an opinion. Air is free.

Actually it's not. Everytime Parker posts his same golden mean/mindless middle stuff he wastes the time of every single person who reads it. I consider my time valuable (at least $20/hour breakpoint for whether a project is worth undertaking), don't you?


Sorry man, I think hosting games, creating sites, creating rand programs, volunteering hardware and time, and being with the company since the beginning entitles you to voice an opinion.


I don't understand your animus. There has been a lot of mindless drivel - see the joke threads, the sombre threads, septs advertising threads (no offense). To which I haven't noted significant objection, so I don't think you're consistent in your standards.

I have no desire to debate Gandalf, but I think its better to debate ideas not people. I'll leave the last word to you.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ideally one should be an active player of multiplayer games to expect your opinion about multiplayer games to be considered useful.
I said I am. Im in 3 at the moment long games. Not to mention short irc games. How many are you in right now?

But... who jumped us just to mp? Ive been told that cbm is something everyone should used including solo players and brand new people. Both of those I disagree with. If you do also then we at least have one agreement.

Actually it's not. Everytime Parker posts his same golden mean/mindless middle stuff he wastes the time of every single person who reads it. I consider my time valuable (at least $20/hour breakpoint for whether a project is worth undertaking), don't you?Heehee. One of my sigs says
If I knew more about the subject I could charge more for my answers.
What do I charge now? Oh this was offered for free.
Im no longer paid here. Sorry.
In fact, Im retired. I can do anything I want and not worry about that. My hourly rate on various small internet jobs is based totally on whether or not the subject is interesting. Which also tends to explain the type of mods and things I do.

I know that you are filling in. Im sure you will get better at it.

[Squirrelloid]

Chris:
Graeme's point was you should be familiar with how MP is played, especially by the more competitive players, in order for your opinion on MP games to be taken seriously. You should also have experience with the mod in question. I haven't seen Gandalf sign up to use any CBM 1.6 games, maybe he has, I don't know, but his general apparent hostility to the mod doesn't seem well reasoned, and he doesn't seem to understand the MP metagame at all. (His association of CBM with 'dueling' is mindboggling, since I've only seen one duel game ever organized on this or any other forum - not that I can say I follow all the forums Dom3 gets games organized on, but dueling seems really rare).


Ideally one should be an active player of multiplayer games to expect your opinion about multiplayer games to be considered useful.
I said I am. Im in 3 at the moment long games. Not to mention short irc games. How many are you in right now?

How many of those games use CBM? If you want your opinion on CBM to carry any weight you need to actually play with it.


But... who jumped us just to mp? Ive been told that cbm is something everyone should used including solo players and brand new people. Both of those I disagree with. If you do also then we at least have one agreement.

If you never intend to play MP, then sure, play vanilla. Play totally random stuff. Play whatever the hell you want. It doesn't matter.

If you intend to play MP (especially on this or the new more-sombre forums), you should just start with CBM and never look back, because 80+% of games use CBM. Might as well familiarize yourself with the version of the game you'll actually be using most of the time, even in SP.

If nothing else, eliminating gem gens means that I will actively avoid playing in non-CBM 1.6+ games from now on, because gem gens leads to degenerate gameplay that I don't find appealing. (Note I'm only subbing in this game as a favor to Chris). Lots of other players feel the same way. So just because a minority of games still happen using vanilla doesn't mean you'd ever have to actually play in one. And since most of the best MPers seem to only play CBM, if you want to play against the strongest players the game has to offer you're going to want to spend your time practicing CBM.

[rdonj]

This topic seems to come up a lot in this thread. Maybe someone should make a CBM vs vanilla thread on the main forum for debating the subject?

[Gandalf Parker]

I said I am. Im in 3 at the moment long games. Not to mention short irc games. How many are you in right now?
How many of those games use CBM? If you want your opinion on CBM to carry any weight you need to actually play with it.
Some do tho none at the moment. Most actually cut up cbm into pieces and play with just the pretender parts or the gengen parts. I guess if I wanted my "opinion on CBM to carry any weight" Id play more of them and join in on the cbm conversation thread. But my only opinion on cbm is that its not worthy of becoming the "de facto standard" of Dom3. :)


If you intend to play MP (especially on this or the new more-sombre forums), you should just start with CBM and never look back, because 80+% of games use CBM. Might as well familiarize yourself with the version of the game you'll actually be using most of the time, even in SP.That might be true of Sombre's forums. Im not sure about 80% here. But as far as those go I guess your statement is true. If I was interested in MP games of those type then I could expect them to be cbm.

So just because a minority of games still happen using vanilla doesn't mean you'd ever have to actually play in one. And since most of the best MPers seem to only play CBMAnd again, back to this forum, and the king of the hill crowd (by duelist I didnt mean one-on-one as much as the my-strategy-kicks-your-*** challenges gaming). Im not sure how "best MPers" would stand up but I know a number of pretty kickass players that I dont remember seeing in a cbm game. Possibly our views are restricted. I enjoy playing with the devs altho Im not sure how they compare on your scale.

So the feeling is that only those who can win games using cbm are qualified opinions on why cbm is good? And all of the best MPers play cbm only? And their opinions on what "always happens" in non-cbm games are the generally accepted facts?

[Graeme Dice]

Sorry man, I think hosting games, creating sites, creating rand programs, volunteering hardware and time, and being with the company since the beginning entitles you to voice an opinion.

That would give you a valuable opinion on those things, and still make your opinion worthless on multiplayer balance. That he's a former employee of Shrapnel who left on apparently good terms actually makes his opinion worth less than if he wasn`t, since it provides an obvious conflict of interest.

I don't understand your animus. There has been a lot of mindless drivel - see the joke threads, the sombre threads, septs advertising threads (no offense). To which I haven't noted significant objection, so I don't think you're consistent in your standards.

I don't like people who waste my time with PR copy.

I have no desire to debate Gandalf, but I think its better to debate ideas not people. I'll leave the last word to you.

Parker doesn't have any ideas. He spouts the mindless middle, which is the fallacious idea that whatever is in the middle of two viewpoints is correct rather than what is supported by the evidence.

[Graeme Dice]

Some do tho none at the moment. Most actually cut up cbm into pieces and play with just the pretender parts or the gengen parts.

Really? Do you have any actual statistics on this? Because it was only within the last month that Edi even released such a version of CBM 1.6, and the something awful forums have a tiny number of games compared to Llamaserver. And guess what. Not a single game on Llamaserver is using such a sliced up version of CBM 1.6

I guess if I wanted my "opinion on CBM to carry any weight" Id play more of them and join in on the cbm conversation thread. But my only opinion on cbm is that its not worthy of becoming the "de facto standard" of Dom3.

Yes, we're well aware that you're ignorant. Are you still going to prattle on about how putting black hearts on Pan's and assinating independent commanders is a great way to expand in the early game?

That might be true of Sombre's forums. Im not sure about 80% here.

It was shown to you several months ago that well over 80% (closer to 95%) of all games on Llamaserver are using a version of CBM. Can you please try and utilize the actual evidence instead of your imagination? Evidence has value. Your statements based on what you think do not.

So the feeling is that only those who can win games using cbm are qualified opinions on why cbm is good?

Here Parker indicates that he likes to utilize strawman arguments. Nobody has made this statement other than you. Can you please try and debate honestly? Or is that impossible for a paid Shrapnel shill?

But really. Could you please try and base your arguments on reality instead of your imagination?

[Squirrelloid]

I said I am. Im in 3 at the moment long games. Not to mention short irc games. How many are you in right now?
How many of those games use CBM? If you want your opinion on CBM to carry any weight you need to actually play with it.
Some do tho none at the moment. Most actually cut up cbm into pieces and play with just the pretender parts or the gengen parts. I guess if I wanted my "opinion on CBM to carry any weight" Id play more of them and join in on the cbm conversation thread. But my only opinion on cbm is that its not worthy of becoming the "de facto standard" of Dom3. :)

I can't stand playing most nations in vanilla, because the units are so poorly priced. (Heavy cavalry units are especially bad, and generally unplayable outside of CBM with a few rare exceptions).

Fortunately BL doesn't suffer markedly from this problem - the tiger riders are badly priced, but everything else (that you'd bother to use) is fine.


So just because a minority of games still happen using vanilla doesn't mean you'd ever have to actually play in one. And since most of the best MPers seem to only play CBMAnd again, back to this forum, and the king of the hill crowd (by duelist I didnt mean one-on-one as much as the my-strategy-kicks-your-*** challenges gaming). Im not sure how "best MPers" would stand up but I know a number of pretty kickass players that I dont remember seeing in a cbm game. Possibly our views are restricted. I enjoy playing with the devs altho Im not sure how they compare on your scale.

So the feeling is that only those who can win games using cbm are qualified opinions on why cbm is good? And all of the best MPers play cbm only? And their opinions on what "always happens" in non-cbm games are the generally accepted facts?

First of all, it doesn't take much playing of vanilla to figure out what should always happen. There are very few spells of each type that are worth using in vanilla. (Eg, only a small minority of summons will ever see play in vanilla). And rampant clamming means the game necessarily degenerates into armageddon fests by those nations who can take advantage of it. CBM certainly increases the number of useable spells, and makes the endgame less degenerate (or at least, it degenerates less quickly).

Both CBM and Vanilla share the 'tartarians are key to the endgame' problem. Llamabeasts Endgame Diversity Mod is a step in the right direction, but Tartarians are really just too cheap for what they do, which inordinately rewards whomever can hold onto the chalice or keep GoH up. This is the one major spell issue CBM still needs to fix.

Finally, *winning* isn't the key to having a well-reasoned opinion. Playing with good players probably is though.

[Septimius Severus]

There are different mods a player may choose to play with, though many may not be as comprehensive as CBM. But let's not ram any particular mod down peoples throats or intimate that if you choose to play without a particular mod that you are not a "good player".

[Squirrelloid]

There are different mods a player may choose to play with, though many may not be as comprehensive as CBM. But let's not ram any particular mod down peoples throats or intimate that if you choose to play without a particular mod that you are not a "good player".

I never said 'if you play with CBM you are a good player', I said 'if you are a good player, you _probably_ play with CBM'. This requires you already know who the good players are. So if you know who the good players are (Example: Micah), then you can check out the games they're playing or have played. I can't think of a non-CBM game Micah has played in recently. Indeed, one could use the HoF top player list and cross-reference their wins to games to see what mods they typically use (keeping in mind the HoF goes back farther than CBM, and CBM becomes more common the closer you get to the recent).

[chrispedersen]

I like CBM, I like vanilla. Most players just coming to the game will probably have SP experience and hence likely no CBM experience.

So vanilla games have use, introducing new players to the complexity of MP without thowing the complexity of cBM in at the same time.

[Septimius Severus]

Right, the longer you play the game, generally the more experienced and the better you will get at it, whether you choose to play with a mod or without a mod, whether your name is in the Hall of Fame or not. It is probably best to play with and without mods so that you can appreciate any differences and judge for yourself. Everyone has their own preferences, play styles, etc. Should be no hostility towards this mod or that mod, SP or MP, vanilla vs. CBM, or the individuals who hold these preferences or opinions. As for myself, though I do have preferences as everyone else does, I'm open to playing many different types of games with anyone else who is willing to play and with players of any experience level, not just a certain group of them.

[Graeme Dice]

So? That doesn't mean that all those things are all equally valid.

[quote]Should be no hostility towards this mod or that mod, SP or MP, vanilla vs. CBM, or the individuals who hold these preferences or opinions.

The only initial hostitlity here is coming from those people who want to desperately hold onto their gem generators and use them to squash newbies.

[militarist]

GEMGENS and GORGON.

I think some people like some nations and don't like other just because they choose the nation by look and feel, not competitiveness, sometimes through all Dom line,. but still want to be competitive. And some nations, which sometimes were not strongest even with gems, were seriously nerfed and these nations became even weaker. That obviously hits these players.

I see the way out either in compensating these nations this loss (it's a complicated way I don't like), or, what I really would like to see, is to make gemgens spell NATIONAL open for some nations,so these nations would get these items from casting, no forging, open for those nations who were hit the most , and who will not become OP because of it (for example ULMs and Kaliasa/BL/Patala). I don't know it it possible.

When someone say that gemgens or gorgona is a way to be OP, the proper question to ask - the way for whom? Which nations would become OP with it? And which are not? Pangaeas don't become OP, Sauromantia is already there even without Gorgon, but it can skip choosing Gorgon just because it doesn't really need awake SC early game, and nobody care if they have Gorgon imprisoned - in a late game Gorgon is not a problem at all. So here I would prefer to exclude Gorgon from the list of Sauromantia's pretenders rather then nerfing it, with respect to initial ballance. The same with gemgens. Again, I'm not modder, so don't know if forging gemgens can be replaced somehow by something with the same function but another form to make them accessible by the those nations which really need them and dont become OP.

[Squirrelloid]

GEMGENS and GORGON.

I think some people like some nations and don't like other just because they choose the nation by look and feel, not competitiveness, sometimes through all Dom line,. but still want to be competitive. And some nations, which sometimes were not strongest even with gems, were seriously nerfed and these nations became even weaker. That obviously hits these players.

I see the way out either in compensating these nations this loss (it's a complicated way I don't like), or, what I really would like to see, is to make gemgens spell NATIONAL open for some nations,so these nations would get these items from casting, no forging, open for those nations who were hit the most , and who will not become OP because of it (for example ULMs and Kaliasa/BL/Patala). I don't know it it possible.

When someone say that gemgens or gorgona is a way to be OP, the proper question to ask - the way for whom? Which nations would become OP with it? And which are not? Pangaeas don't become OP, Sauromantia is already there even without Gorgon, but it can skip choosing Gorgon just because it doesn't really need awake SC early game, and nobody care if they have Gorgon imprisoned - in a late game Gorgon is not a problem at all. So here I would prefer to exclude Gorgon from the list of Sauromantia's pretenders rather then nerfing it, with respect to initial ballance. The same with gemgens. Again, I'm not modder, so don't know if forging gemgens can be replaced somehow by something with the same function but another form to make them accessible by the those nations which really need them and dont become OP.

No.

Gorgons are better than every other pretender option. That's the very definition of overpowered. If Pangaea is underpowered, then that should be addressed in a way that makes them balanced, not by giving them OP pretender options. (Now, CBM may have gone a little far at 150pts - imo Gorgon should be 125pts like Moloch/PoD, because its the same type of chassis).

I would argue Pangaea isn't actually underpowered, people just play them wrong. They're a bless nation - the turmoil -> maenads thing is just a distraction that prevents people from figuring out how to actually play them. Play for the white centaurs, not the maenads.

And gem gens aren't fair for anyone. Making them available to only a few nations is even worse than being available for everyone.

(Monkey nations hardly need access to clams. 12-20 pearls/turn is perfectly reasonable mid-game pearl income, which is a rudra every 3-5 turns. Given everyone else also has fewer gems, that seems perfectly sufficient. Actually, that's a general problem with the theory that loss of gem gens hurt some nations more than others - everyone has fewer gems now, so you need fewer summons to be relevant. I think some people just liked turtling too much, which is why they whine about gemgens being gone - get over it, this is a game about conducting warfare, not hiding).

[ano]

Septimius, please add 5h to the timer just for the case zegc-ben doesn't come in time. I really don't want my bid wasted and I need to go to bed now. Thanks.

[militarist]

Squirellord, I answered on invisionfree related forum, it's probably not the right place...

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius, please add 5h to the timer just for the case zegc-ben doesn't come in time. I really don't want my bid wasted and I need to go to bed now. Thanks.
Sorry, I was away from my comp/didn't get the message in time. I am usually on twice a day, but it is possible for me to miss something in between. Though most seemed OK with current schedule we may need to jump ahead to 48 hours prior to turn 20. Don't want to see Atlantis staling especially.

[zegc-ben]

I wont stale any more but for this time I was something like 5 minutes short:doh::doh::doh: : my Dom crashed the first time I tried to upload and when I retried it was already the next turn. Anyway this is my fault, I shouldn't have been so late.

[Numahr]

When I try to connect to upload my turn, the game says:

"connection failed
The dominion server or your connection to the internet might be down. Also make sure you entered the correct ip-adress (70.36.184.129) and port number number (10333)"

I'll try again later...

[chrispedersen]

Gorgons are better than every other pretender option.

Nah, I don't agree. Give mictlan the choice of a gorgon or an oracle and he'll still go oracle.

Prince of Death, Immortal Oracle, Master Druid for Niefle in CBM.

Don't get me wrong - I like the gorgon - but its not a once size fits all.

[Gandalf Parker]

I still cant prefer Gorgon for EA or MA Pangaea even though its often recomended. Id much rather play Carrion Dragon or Lord of the Wild (depending on which Pangaea strategy Im going with)

[Septimius Severus]

Though a great expander vs. indies, the Gorgon is also rather fragile. So a shield or other equipment I believe is recommended early on.

Well, the AI seems to be tearing us (Children of Crom) a new butthole. :o :shock:

Gandalf, I can honestly say this is the most challenging AI I have ever played against in Dom3. You've done your job well, probably too well. :D

[Squirrelloid]

Gorgons are better than every other pretender option.

Nah, I don't agree. Give mictlan the choice of a gorgon or an oracle and he'll still go oracle.

Prince of Death, Immortal Oracle, Master Druid for Niefle in CBM.

Don't get me wrong - I like the gorgon - but its not a once size fits all.

I did mean that in the context (from the post I was responding to) of those nations who had access to the Gorgon.

And obviously Gorgon is no longer as good in CBM, since he's 150 points instead of 50 points! The problem with the Gorgon at 50pts is you can have an awake SC, an E9N4 bless, and decent scales all at the same time.

[ano]

And obviously Gorgon is no longer as good in CBM
Could resist when saw this... Yeah, nerfing is the point of "balancing" - things which are good and powerful are called imba, then nerfed then become worthless and then another "imba" is found. This process is endless - cutting off the functionality instead of adding new one. This is a well known way of "balancing", already seen in many games which generally leads nowhere. In the end you will have 2 equal troops and 2 equal commanders - an ideally balanced game.

[Gandalf Parker]

I refer to that as "chess balance". Ending up with two perfectly matched nations wearing different colors. Many strategy games go with that and I wont knock it but I tend not to prefer it.

As far as imba and nerf Ive seen the same in online worlds which Ive been involved with since their birth (text mode before Internet existed). The adders, and the subtractors. Adders tend to be players who recently gained editing access. Subtractors tend to be old timers who know that all-adding is a never ending climb which is good but they can turn cynical. The best editing is done by a group which is willing (a rare event) to not select based on their own preference for add or subtract but to allow both equal reign. Its still never-ending but the alternative is stagnation.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well, the AI seems to be tearing us (Children of Crom) a new butthole. :o :shock:

Gandalf, I can honestly say this is the most challenging AI I have ever played against in Dom3. You've done your job well, probably too well. :D
Thats nice to know.
I take it that instructions of "Newbies and Vets III with level 10 AI no-holds-barred" is going to be slightly modified?
If so, no problem. Im thinking along the lines of a separate level 10 game.

[Squirrelloid]

And obviously Gorgon is no longer as good in CBM
Could resist when saw this... Yeah, nerfing is the point of "balancing" - things which are good and powerful are called imba, then nerfed then become worthless and then another "imba" is found. This process is endless - cutting off the functionality instead of adding new one. This is a well known way of "balancing", already seen in many games which generally leads nowhere. In the end you will have 2 equal troops and 2 equal commanders - an ideally balanced game.

Have you even looked at CBM's pretenders?

Options which were too powerful got reigned in. They had to be. You couldn't boost every other option up to their level.

But options which were too weak got boosted, sometimes substantially. They were made cheaper, given more magic, and sometimes new abilities.

The point is to make every pretender an equally good buy. Now, a given nation is going to prefer a certain set of pretenders, but that's based purely on the exigencies of the nation, not the cost of the pretender. (ie, situation creates preferences, not poor pricing).

You (and Gandalf) seem to not know what you're talking about when you refer to chess style balancing with regards to CBM. CBM has done more boosting than nerfing overall, including to pretenders. But sometimes a pretender is so far out of line that it needs to be nerfed back to reasonableness. Gorgon was one such. But to say that all CBM does is nerf is to ignore improvements to chasses like the rainbows and dozens of others. The very briefest inspection would quickly disprove that CBM has made all pretenders the same.

It wasn't that Gorgon was "good and powerful", it was *too good* for the points. Its still just as powerful, its now also costed appropriately. It was the only pretender which let you take a major bless on an awake Dom 9 SC and not tank your scales. Basically, you should get what you pay for, nothing more and nothing less. I for one vastly prefer a situation where there are multiple good options to choose from, not one option that is so obviously the best one as to make the others meaningless.

Alternately, maybe you'd care to explain what you'd do to improve other pretender options to be as good a deal as Gorgon. Say, frost father.

[Gandalf Parker]

I have no argument that CBM evens out things like pretenders. That type of one-to-one balancing is what makes cbm very useful for challenge games.

As far as Frost Father that surprises me. Its one of the few pretenders that work for insane bless levels.

[Squirrelloid]

Frost Father is the rainbow chassis. You're thinking of Father of Winters.

[Gandalf Parker]

Frost Father is the rainbow chassis. You're thinking of Father of Winters.
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
But I meant Frost Father. He is one of the few that can get 3x9 plus some left over (if you want to pay for it). And of the ones that could get there, he had some other features that could be worked to his advantage over the other choices.

[Squirrelloid]

The following assumes vanilla for all pretenders:
An imprisoned dom 5 3x9 Frost Father requires -12 net scales in vanilla... Hardly an optimal bless chassis, and I wouldn't say there's much left over there. Even assuming a rainbow, you can do the same with a Great Enchantress, except you get a better bless and a pearl every turn. (E9S9X9 >> W9A9X9)

For one extra negative scale, we can have a great mother with E9N9X9 (great bless!). Of course, E9X9N8 is probably better for a lot of nations, so we squeeze out some extra dominion or only -11 scales instead.

You could take a Phoenix with identical build style (dom5, 3x9, imprisoned, -12 scales), have at least an equivalent bless (F9A9X9), and a better pretender chassis (flying, immortal). Also in this category: Titan (A9E9X9, and its a titan chassis so it can be an SC when it wakes up), Keeper of the Bridge (A9E9X9, Titan Chassis), Moloch (F9B9X9, Dom 6!, great chassis), Mother of Tuathas (A9N9X9, titan), Destroyer of Worlds (A9D9X9, titan, 4 arms!), and so on...

With similar build but better blesses (and chasses), there's the Lady of Love (W9N9X9, titan chassis, Awe+4), Mother of Serpents (D9N9X9, titan chassis), PoD (D9X9Y9 - more versatile, excellent chassis), Mother of Spring (W9N9X9, titan chassis, produces water gems), Lord of the Forest (E9N9X9, titan chassis, dom summons animals), Father of Serpents (D9N9X9, Titan, good stats), Lord of Plenty (E9S9X9! titan), Scorpion King (F9E9X9!, great chassis), and so on...

Getting more efficient at 3x9 blesses, we have the master lich (Dom5, only -11 scales), and its also immortal. There's also the Lord of Rebirth (E9N9D9, titan chassis, -11 scales, Dom 6!), Colossal Head (N9B9X9, -11 scales, Dom 6), Smoking Mirror (F9D9B9, -10 scales, Dom 6!! Of course, you probably take B8 instead of B9 and grab more dominion), Jade Emperor (W9A9S9, Titan, -10 scales), Lady of Fortune (W9S9X9, -11 scales, titan), and so on.

Of course, you could just take a monolith, get Dom 6, and only need to take -11 net scales. Oh yeah, and still have a better bless. (S9N9X9 >> W9A9X9).

Or there's the perennial favorite, Oracle, which with -12 scales and a very versatile triple bless (S9X9Y9) can also swing Dom 9. Not only is it one of the best triple bless chasses in the game, its also available to most nations. Its best competition is Divine Glyph, which is slightly cheaper (Dom 10 with -12 scales), but its bless is more constrained (F9S9X9). Fountain of Blood is just as efficient as the Oracle, but you get B9 instead of S9 (worse bless). Sacred Statue is also S9X9Y9, but slightly more expensive because of chassis cost.

Getting a 3x9 bless is easy, and frost father is one of the *worst* chasses for it.

[ano]

Have you even looked at CBM's pretenders?
I have. And even played with them in MP. And I think they're pretty good and balanced. Maybe the forge lord is a bit too powerful but still ok. If you ever recall my words, I always said that CBM is a very good mod. The only problem with it is that it is not balanced. And it is really so no matter what the reasons and perspectives of CBM development are.
And I don't want to argue anymore. You're hard to talk with because you're too maximalistic and I don't like emotional discussions at all :). But that was interesting, thanks.

[rdonj]

I agree that CBM is not balanced. I don't even think it should strive for perfect balance, as to me that would make the game much less interesting. It is the great variety of things you can do in this game that has kept me interested in it. That said, vanilla is much less balanced to the point where a lot of things are very boring and overdone, and unless you want to RPG in a competetive MP setting, just not avoidable as options. Of course you can do anything you want in SP, but in SP balance doesn't matter at all.

So to me, the benefits are that CBM improves the number of effective and flavorful strategies that can be employed in competitive games, removes clams, and allows you to use pretenders that are just not effective at anything in vanilla. Making some of the most powerful nations less overpowered is a nice bonus too. Obviously this part could still use some work, as there are certain nations that are still regularly banned in MP for just being plain unfun to fight against. And there are certain nations that could use some boosts, which hopefully some of will occur in the next version of CBM. We can only hope, in any case. QM has resisted some of them probably due to a theme element, but with the removal of gem gens some spells are just plain overpriced and could use some price cuts.

Anyway, CBM has a very significant place, and that place IMO is to keep dominions interesting in the MP arena. Even if you are not a competitive player (I am definitely not) CBM helps keep things fresh and fun, and has done a lot to enhance my gameplay experience.



Edit: But seriously, why are we having this discussion here? An MP thread is a really dumb place for such conversations.

[Septimius Severus]

Thats nice to know.
I take it that instructions of "Newbies and Vets III with level 10 AI no-holds-barred" is going to be slightly modified?
Well I would never do a "no holds barred AI" :D in any game, we must obviously have some holds if we want human players to have a chance. For this series, Noobs make up a significant number of the players, so we must continue to keep that in mind.

It's still early in the game and with a tougher AI and fewer human players I expect it will take longer to get a grip on the AI in this one (last game was into the 30's before the AI was completely vanquished), but I'll just likely recommend a slight toning down of the AI in terms of PD if used and perhaps unit production capacity. Overall I want the AI to get progressively and proportionately tougher (though it won't actually get any smarter) but we will need to try to ensure we balance the AI component with the human MP component. Success vs. the AI should play an important strategic role giving the successful human team an advantage going into the human vs human phase.

The AI can be boosted in other ways though: Retain the mixed units (I like that) maybe mix it up even more if possible, introduction of one or two powerful units as AI commanders perhaps (i.e. fewer mammoth type creatures, more commanders), if we go with 3 nation human teams, the AI can have a fourth nation (3x3x3x3x4), the planned game settings will also help.

Lets see how things go though so that we can judge things a bit more accurately and make adjustments as needed.

That being said, a seperate vs. AI only game might also be fun. An RPG'er where a few desperate human played nations band together in a last stand of sorts and square off against incredible odds with endless mighty hordes of AI warriors. The human players are outnumbered, outgunned, but have a few bonuses (like a special commander or something) that they must use wisely. I actually would enjoy that type of under seige type game as well. Defeating the AI, or lasting for x number of turns being the only goal.

[ano]

Septimius Severus
Actually you shouldn't have attacked Man without means to defeat him. Obviously, Gandalf's AIs are defensive and do not attack first.
That is the main reason of your current situation. And the second one is a bit unwise expansion. That's my opinion.

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius Severus
Actually you shouldn't have attacked Man without means to defeat him. Obviously, Gandalf's AIs are defensive and do not attack first.
That is the main reason of your current situation. And the second one is a bit unwise expansion. That's my opinion.

Correct! Hehe, even though these AIs are beefed up (thus not typical of SP games), one of the great things noobs are learning in this game is how, when, and where to attack the AI and even how to use the AI to their advantage, clearing out indies, driving em into other teams, etc. I personally have very little SP (vs. AI) experience, so this is great for me.

What I'm thinking about in the above post is a concern you expressed earlier, the balancing of the vs. AI component with the human vs. human component. Both of which are important. Don't think it will be an issue though. As I say lets see how things go.

[ano]

This game has become a "who-kills-the-AI-faster". That's what I don't like about it :)

[Septimius Severus]

This game has become a "who-kills-the-AI-faster". That's what I don't like about it :) The team that can grab the most indies gets the first advantage (this is where having awake SC pretenders comes in handy and why early expansion is so important), but the team that is behind in that phase can make up for it in the vs. AI phase, if their experience vs. the AI is good.

Thus far, the team that has wisely held off on attacking the AI and used them to their advantage or had better coordination if they did attack the AI, and has expanded well vs. indies, currently has the advantage. Children of Crom perhaps made some early mistakes, but learning is part of the fun and goal, we are a stout and brave group, and our lord Crom would likely not have it any other way. Overall, I am proud of the players on my team, they generally communicated well and I am generally quite free in allowing players to do what they want, if we go down, it will be with honor and glory, as warriors should perish. :D

[Wrana]

[QUOTE=ano;748026]...and I am generally quite free in allowing players to do what they want... :D
And that is the problem, oh Emperor! :p
Though I, too, think that now we can put up some real fight. ;)

[Septimius Severus]

[QUOTE=ano;748026]...and I am generally quite free in allowing players to do what they want... :D
And that is the problem, oh Emperor! :p
Though I, too, think that now we can put up some real fight. ;)

Hehe. I'm a game admin first, captain second! :)

[Numahr]

Septimius Severus
Obviously, Gandalf's AIs are defensive and do not attack first.

Well, I guess some exceptions have to confirm the rule, then

[ano]

I believe the Children of Crom attacked AI first

[Gandalf Parker]

Septimius Severus
Obviously, Gandalf's AIs are defensive and do not attack first.
Well, I guess some exceptions have to confirm the rule, then
I wouldnt read too much into this. Im learning many things that can be done with the AI. And many things it does or doesnt do well to work with or work around. But some things are still being worked out.

The game still sets the AIs disposition as defensive, aggressive, or default.
The game still decides if the god I give the AI will be awake, sleep, or jailed.
The game still chooses the first Prophet.
The game still sets initial goals.

But I am learning how to get around some of that which could be used in the next game (or an AI challenge game). This games AI was discussed quite helpfully in one of the Dom3 IRC channels. For the next I was going to bounce some things off of Endoperez, Ballbarian, Stavros, NTJedi and some other people who have done some research into boosting the AIs.

I am abit disappointed if the game set the AIs all on defensive. In the tests they were mostly aggressive and the initial goal was well chosen. When the scoreboard shows that the AI is more whipped I will go into some details on that.

[ano]

Gandalf, if this AI was aggressive on top of everything else, I would be the first to just give up all this.

[ano]

Gandalf
Stats script is displaying so nice things at the moment
like
Dominions 3 Scores, navii turn 17

blastsqr: unr9296 x14 y10 aoe0 dmg10 eff2 spc1075839042 as-1 al0
I believe the game is being hosted. But still funny :)

[Wrana]

As far as I see, they do not attack other nations first, unless the latter seem weak. Then they charge in in a typical AI fashion. With mammoths that can be quite scary. :) If they charged earlier, they could just roll over me, for example. I'm not that experienced with Ulm.

[Septimius Severus]

Was hoping for aggressive as well, though if the case, starting armies might need to be tweeked to prevent them overwhelming the players (like removing the mammoths). Don't want the AI to be easily rushable, but also don't want players to get rushed either. The AI seems to follow the path of least resistance apparently, at least that was my early belief.

Ano maybe you should sign up for Gandalf's AI challenge game if it is made.;) Could be fun, 3-4 human players, surrounded by 6-8 AI nations. Hopelessly and desperately outnumbered, on a small map, surrounded by the AI on all sides, the players make their last stand and are given 3 or 4 starting provinces, a powerful commander, a handful of Eternal Knights, and a kiss for good luck! :)

Several of those games could be run simultaneously, with the group of players lasting the longest before being massacred declared the winner. Might be good practice for game 3.

[chrispedersen]

I would be interested but couldn't play for a long time.

[Finalgenesis]

Sub needed for Marignon in "Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI.".

Part of four man team strenously fighting Gandelf's enhanced indies, and then other human/AI teams.

Team is quite active and constructive. Good learning opportunity for newb.

If this is still applicable I'm up for it. Never played MP before though if that matters.

[chrispedersen]

Sub needed for Marignon in "Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI.".

Part of four man team strenously fighting Gandelf's enhanced indies, and then other human/AI teams.

Team is quite active and constructive. Good learning opportunity for newb.

If this is still applicable I'm up for it. Never played MP before though if that matters.

Hmm... I think I'm willing to posit that under the circumstances described, (CBM, 3-4 provinces, a hero, and at least 2-3 buffer territories between AI and player,) AND gandalf not knowing what nations were to be played, that good players could beat any strength AI.

[Gandalf Parker]

A short zone between players might seem that way. But part of the boosting usually involves giving extra commanders and armies to the AI. So it would probably be possible to create an AI that would be a problem. Especially if set to aggressive and given a direct goal to work in that direction. Extremely easy and extremely hard are equally simple to do. Its making it possible to beat but a challenge that is hard to get right.

[Septimius Severus]

Sub needed for Marignon in "Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI.".

Part of four man team strenously fighting Gandelf's enhanced indies, and then other human/AI teams.

Team is quite active and constructive. Good learning opportunity for newb.

If this is still applicable I'm up for it. Never played MP before though if that matters.

Yes it is so. The team is Children of Crom and we could use another alternate to sub for Marignon. Welcome Finalgenesis. If interested, stop by the team forums (link below), register, and I'll get you squared away, also check out the first post of this thread for info on the game:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/

[Finalgenesis]

Done, pending approval. I read up the setting and d/led the mod / map. I'll see you on silverforum. Meanwhile I should sign the player pledge.

[Wrana]

I would be interested but couldn't play for a long time.
Actually, I do not think it would take a long time. ;)
And count me in as well - though, of course, in this case I will take an awake Pretender! ;)

[chrispedersen]

Ashdod is down to 1 province!
Pan is down to 2.
Indies are down to 3.

Set has 71 territories! This is head and shoulders above all other parties.

It has 40% more forts than its closest competitor.

[Septimius Severus]

Done, pending approval. I read up the setting and d/led the mod / map. I'll see you on silverforum. Meanwhile I should sign the player pledge. Your account is approved. Strange, I seemed to have gotten 3 or 4 different activation e-mails for you. If you can set up your PM options here, it might be helpful as well, as I often prefer to use Shrapnel for PMs. Welcome.

[ano]

Set has 71 territories!
Usurpers have 56 and are way ahead in research which is probably one of the main things that matter.

[chrispedersen]

Bah, thats just untruthful propaganda.

R = F($)

$ <<< F(R)

[ano]

We'd gladly trade some of our income for some of your research, really :)

[Squirrelloid]

My research is more precious to me than diamonds!

Mine, all mine, my own, my precious! *glares at Ano*

[Septimius Severus]

Starting next turn, the hosting interval goes to 48 hours.

Have done some preliminary work on the 3 variations of the Nataraja for the Heavenly, Earthly, and Underworld realms for game 3. Each has appropriate Awe, Fear, Animal Awe +5 and resistance = 100. Not sure of the costing or the resistances yet, but if you have a suggestion feel free to let me know.

http://i49.tinypic.com/16iv82h.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/34sp8n7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/x6gevd.jpg

[ano]

Septimius, it seems to me that you like game planning much more than actually playing. While I can understand it, it's still very strange :)

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius, it seems to me that you like game planning much more than actually playing. While I can understand it, it's still very strange :)

Yes, I enjoy organizing, planning, creating, etc, a great deal, perhaps even more than playing. But of course, I probably wouldn't bother if I didn't enjoy playing or I thought the game wasn't worth it.

[Samulus]

Hey are you guys still looking for a sub? Ive squared off everything with my computer after lengthy face-to-wall activity.

So yeah, if you are i'd like to play.

[ano]

I doubt that Mari position is very promising but you still can put up some fight with the AI. We all fight against AI here.... :)

[Septimius Severus]

Current VPs:

Supplicants of Set: 8
A.I.T.E.A.M.: 7
Usurpers: 4
Children of Crom: 4
AI Sanguinarium: 3

AI Pangaea is dead (main post updated)
Eriu, almost finished.

Shinuyama looking great.

Ashdod making a comeback.

Atlantis seems to have taken a beating lately but is still hanging in there.

[AlgaeNymph]

Chris Pedersen, are you going to relieve Squirrelloid of captaining or continue being advisor?

[chrispedersen]

Septimius, Gandalf

I'd like to request a 36 hour extension. I am *really* not in a position to captain, but if no other arrangements can be made, I got squirrell into thisl I feel obligated to relieve him of it. With thanks.

So if there is a vet out there with the time to spare, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I need time to get up to speed.

[ano]

It seems like all Usurpers have submitted their turns, so maybe you don't really need these 36h this turn?

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius, Gandalf

I'd like to request a 36 hour extension. I am *really* not in a position to captain, but if no other arrangements can be made, I got squirrell into thisl I feel obligated to relieve him of it. With thanks.

So if there is a vet out there with the time to spare, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I need time to get up to speed.

Well, by the time I got this message the turn had already processed (looks like every ones turns were in though). As advisor I know you'd have access to the forums all along but if you feel your team needs more than 48 hours on the current turn (23) for the transition of captain or for something else just let me know and how much additional time you might need. Otherwise welcome back Chris.

[chrispedersen]

After discussion, both I and squirrell think that the game is already decided. However, I have not discussed our observations with the team. Having access does not mean I've had time to participate in the discussions, significantly.

The team in itself has functioned well. If they wish to continue - for purposed of learning the game, tactics etc. I'd rather they had the opportunity to do so. I'll post for a sub, ask for the delay, and try to catch up.

[Septimius Severus]

Well Chris, let me know what you guys want to do. I don't want to hold up the turns inordinately for everyone else if at all possible, but if you need a specific delay to find either another noob (and promote a captain from within) or someone to replace yourself, like I said let me know.

There are at least a few players who are still learning or enjoying themselves. While I may have my own private opinion as well, I also think there are no guarantees that any team will absolutely win. And diplomacy remains open between teams. Technically the game will roll on till one of the 3 victory conditions is met:

1. Conventional win - by annihilation or concession (excluding merc)

2. Insta-win - control 22 of the 33 VP locations (control of a fortification = control). Every marked location on map is worth 1 VP

3. Most VPs - upon agreement by all captains to end the game, the team with the most VPs wins. Any VP tie will be decided based on most provinces held.

I do want to take the time, however, to thank Squirrel for subbing as captain of the Usurpers. It can be a rough/time consuming job being looked to for leadership. A captain/leader needs the support and effort of all team members and the burden of running the team (organization, posting, communication, etc.) should be spread amongst all members as evenly as possible.

[ano]

Guys, I have to repeat my suggestion about your teams teaming up completely.Obviously, our team is in superior position now but even Cromites are far from hopeless taking into account gems and other possibilities.
However, if you don't think it makes sense to continue, we're ok with that.

[chrispedersen]

I've asked for the extension based on continuing.
Also whats the current hosting turn around time?

[Septimius Severus]

However, if you don't think it makes sense to continue, we're ok with that.
Yes, I am sure you are! :) Couldn't help but notice Mysterio is dead as well.

[ano]

here you will find all info on hosting (http://navii.dom3minions.com/bin/chk.cgi)
and here're stats etc (http://navii.dom3minions.com)

[Septimius Severus]

I've asked for the extension based on continuing.
Also whats the current hosting turn around time?

What? You mean you want a delay contingent upon your team continuing or you just want a delay. If so how long? Let me know when you've a concrete answer.

The current hosting interval is 48 hours. 21 hours left on the current turn. We are only at turn 23. And moving along at about the full interval. Info available on the main post.

[ano]

Couldn't help but notice Mysterio is dead as well.
His death was very different from the deva's and he nearly bet us. But luckily, he is dead.

[Septimius Severus]

I was hoping your death (C'tis) would be interesting and unique as well. With luck I'll get a chance to see it. :D

Why hasn't C'tis joined the fight against AI Man, or do you want Children of Crom to have all the fun?

Game note:

ChrisPedersen is resuming as Captain of the Usurpers. I welcome Chris back to the game. He has also asked for an 8 hour delay to refamiliarize himself with the strategic situation and the game rules and parameters. The delay will be granted. Opening post updated.

[ano]

Why hasn't C'tis joined the fight against AI Man, or do you want Children of Crom to have all the fun?
Exactly!

[ano]

Septimius
You wanted to extend turn by 8h. Why does it say 41h now?

[chrispedersen]

I've gotten turns in for arco and bandar. But still waiting on pythium and mictlan.

[Septimius Severus]

Gandalf needs to change it. But apparently to institute delays Gandalf must stop the game and restart it. So when he did, it reinitialized the 48 hour interval and no other interval was set. The timestamp I have on the current turn is 6/16 3:45 AM which I am assuming is PST. So if you add 48 hours to that, plus an additional 8 hours for Chris, the new turn should host 6/18 11:45 AM. If that timestamp is PST (sever time), that would mean the next turn should host at 6/18 2:45 PM EST.

Aside from that though, I still see all 4 Usurpers turns still outstanding. Frustrating, I know. If we can get those turns in before Gandalf gets the message I sent about the adjustment, then the turn will process and Gandalf doesn't need to make any more adjustments.

Edit: 2 turns still outstanding. Lets get those turns in!

[AlgaeNymph]

Edit: 2 turns still outstanding. Lets get those turns in!I'll do my best, but it'll take a bit given Chris' ultra=precise micromanagement.

[Septimius Severus]

I'll do my best, but it'll take a bit given Chris' ultra=precise micromanagement.

Hah. That's Chris for ya. :lol But I still have great respect for his experience and I tip my hat to any with the courage to take up the mantle of leadership.

For good or bad though, whatever the turn (or the game) may bring, the faster the turns host the faster noobs can learn. Remember also, there's a no rollback policy for this game.

[Numahr]

I'm the last. When Chris posted, the working day was just starting where I reside. Here in the office no connection to the servor is techincally possible. I'll do my turn toonight as soon as i arrive home.

[chrispedersen]

Speaking of things....

It had previously been agreed that freshwater tags would be applied to many territories and mountain tags would be applied to 1/3 to 1/2 of the mountain territories.

My team has been blowing water gems based on the assumption that this had been done.

My version of the map file however shows *no* water tags and *no* mountain tags.

To refresh the issue: if you want to have a team based on water (as the usurpers are) then you needed to make sure there was equal access to water gems.

I don't recall the exact numbers - but there were
50 something forest provinces
30 something mountain provinces
14 waste provinces
and 8! swamps.


Forests most common gem type is nature, followed by death.
So there are plenty of spots for Nature, earth and death sites.
almost none for water.

And that is exactly what our site searching is turning up: bupkus for water. What happened?

[ano]

chrispedersen
I may tell you we've found a good pack of water sites even though we didn't specifically search for them. But we've found nearly no astral and what we've found is crap. So, it's basically random.
However, if freshwater tags (and mountains) have not been added, it is bad because this was agreed upon. I just didn't pay much attention to it

[Septimius Severus]

Speaking of things....

It had previously been agreed that freshwater tags would be applied to many territories and mountain tags would be applied to 1/3 to 1/2 of the mountain territories.

My team has been blowing water gems based on the assumption that this had been done.

My version of the map file however shows *no* water tags and *no* mountain tags.

To refresh the issue: if you want to have a team based on water (as the usurpers are) then you needed to make sure there was equal access to water gems.

I don't recall the exact numbers - but there were
50 something forest provinces
30 something mountain provinces
14 waste provinces
and 8! swamps.


Forests most common gem type is nature, followed by death.
So there are plenty of spots for Nature, earth and death sites.
almost none for water.

And that is exactly what our site searching is turning up: bupkus for water. What happened?

Don't know what issue your having Chris. Freshwater terrain masks and mountain terrains masks WERE added to the final/server version of the .map file which Gandalf has. Apparently you can't actually see the freshwater tags when you click on the provinces in the gamen though, but my version of the .map clearly shows several provinces with the freshwater terrain mask number 8, so doesn't mean they are not there. I do however, see all the mountain tags I added on the map. Just to give you an example, if you click around your map I see (and you should see also) mountain provinces in: 212, 185, 137, 145, etc. If you don't see these, then I'd like know.

As I stated after I completed the work on adding the tags, I did not just go around the map and randomly add these masks nor did I sit there and count up province numbers. Freshwater tags were added at intervals in provinces along the diagonals stretching from Atlantis Cap to each corner lake (should give you a good idea where to search). Additional freshwater tags were added in the provinces immediately surrounding each corner lake.

Mountain provinces were added in logical places where existing border mountain masks were. Pretty much whereever you see an area which is enclosed by mountains on at least 3 sides and/or with few province connections is where you'll find them. An effort was made to ensure that if there were border mountains in each team's quadrant, there will be at least a couple of mountain provinces as well.

[Septimius Severus]

Regarding the hosting of the current turn, I have asked Gandalf to make the adjustment to ensure that the turn will host when it was supposed to based on the 8 hour delay request. It is up to him to ensure that the server hosts at the appropriate time when I convey a delay request to him. After that it is out my hands.

I gave an earlier estimate based on the timestamp of the file, but Gandalf should actually officially know when this will be in the server time zone.

I do see a message from Numahr here, but I have no idea what time zone he is in, nor do I see another request for a delay. Chris if you want additional hours, you need to let me know now, or else convey the request to Gandalf before the next turn hosts, since I will be off the comp till later this evening. There will be no rollback nonsense this time around. That is a promise and is clearly stated on the opening post!

[AlgaeNymph]

chrispedersen
I may tell you we've found a good pack of water sites even though we didn't specifically search for them. But we've found nearly no astral and what we've found is crap. So, it's basically random.Yep, if it's one thing I know about random it's uneven.

[ano]

Yep, if it's one thing I know about random it's uneven.
It is. Look what I've written about S sites ;)

[chrispedersen]

Hmm.. My map does not show freshwater tags at all, nor mountains. Is the final map secret, or is it available from the first page, and can I examine it?

Regarding hosting, at the present time numahr said he'd get his turn uploaded on his return from work. He is presumably relying on a the time counter that was displaying this morning.

I'd like to just ask that he be allowed to upload his turn. We're on quickhost, so as soon as he does the turn should process. We should be good to go on a regular turn schedule thereafter.

[ano]

I'd like to just ask that he be allowed to upload his turn. We're on quickhost, so as soon as he does the turn should process. We should be good to go on a regular turn schedule thereafter.
5 minutes left till hosting. It is no good.
Even if numahr uploads turn in time (very doubtful), this is a sad situation, Septimius, that should never repeat. We're not in a hurry here and don't want anyone to stale. There would be no problem in postponing the turn more than 8h especially considering the quickhost and the fact that numahr said his turn is done. It is a poor practice to do so.

[ano]

What is particularly bad is when people see one hosting time in the evening morning and a few hours later it suddenly changes without any email notifications or something...

[chrispedersen]

This REALLY bites.

At 12:30 pm the host shows 29 hours till hosting.
at 1:30 you ask me do I need any additional delay.
at 2:30 I respond that numahar is expecting to be able to upload his turn when he returns from work. That he was expecting 29 hours; could we ensure that he has time to upload his turn.

I respond to you within *1* hour. What more could I have realistically done?

Apparently it hosting roughly at 3:30 without numahar. (I don't know the facts).

Sept, no offense but with people spread all over the globe it is impossible to guarantee contact in less than 12 hours or so.

Numahr posted here that he would upload upon his return.
I asked for a delay for him to be able to do that.

Why on earth would you subtract 24 hours from hosting, without numahar having a chance to know about it?

There is a very good chance that because of this the *entire* pythium army will be wiped out.

[ano]

If you want to rehost, our team (at least me) won't mind, although rehosts are evil. This was just a situation that should never happen and an example of bad adminning. Sorry.
But I want the decision as early as possible. Thanks.

[chrispedersen]

I appreciate the sportsmanship ano, I really do.

I haven't looked at the turns; I'd like to second that, with only pythium allowed to upload his turn.

[ano]

Well, I hope this issue is decided by tomorrow morning (GMT). Our team is very unlikely to have something different from what it has now and so I think our guys will not object.
We have looked at the turns but obviously we won't change anything, believe me. If I awake in the morning and there'll be a rehost (but please no later!!), that will be absolutely fine.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually, I changed the timer to the requested setting then restarted the game.
That didnt match the exact time that was requested so Septimius said he wanted the game to host at the time it should have regardless of the counter. Unless "or else convey the request to Gandalf before the next turn hosts" which never happened.

Various people saw times on the counter from days to hours to minutes while trying to comply. And then I see lots of discussion on it here. But now the game has crashed from signal overload so woulda, coulda, shoulda is rather moot.
We await the game master.

[ano]

Gandalf, the problem is that it is not good when game is set to host at some time (even temporarily though it was never widely announced that it IS temporarily and nobody here, I think, really knows how the games are hosted at your server and what options admin has) and then this time is suddenly shrunk a lot. I'm sure, I'd be very angry if I happened to be at numahr's place (although this, probably, couldn't have happened to me as I try to always read everything carefully)

[chrispedersen]

anyone know whats going on?

[AlgaeNymph]

You mean not being able to log in? Nope, but you should be able to look at the turn if you're getting e-mail reminders.

[chrispedersen]

huh? I've never gotten an email reminder

[AlgaeNymph]

You'll have to ask Gandalf to send 'em first.

[Septimius Severus]

I've just had a conversation with Gandalf.

The no rollback policy stands. To allow for the time the game was shut down the current turn (24) will host approximately 48 from now.

To institute delays on Gandalf's server via direct connect, the game must be shut down and restarted. Adjustments need to be made in the various scripts running the game to handle delays. And those adjustments have to be made by Gandalf upon restarting the game and again when the game sucessfully hosts. So what you see on the external timer will not always be accurate until Gandalf adjusts it. I am hoping this lag time will be short, but that's the way Gandalf must apparently do it via direct connect. The last turn actually lasted another 4 hours past when the 56 hours was supposed to expire, so 60 hours had elapsed before the turn actually hosted.

I had left word with Gandalf to allow him to extend the turn if another formal request for a delay was received before the turn was supposed to have hosted. He did not recieve one. I saw the message from Numahr but as I stated, I did not take this as a specific request for a delay. Sorry. Feel free to disagree with the decision, I spent more than an hour in conversation with Gandalf, and this was decided as the best course of action.

I will let Gandalf go into more detail about the specifics of the date math that needs to be done when handling delays. But this is currently handled manually, so Gandalf has to be up and about to make adjustments to timer.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm.. My map does not show freshwater tags at all, nor mountains. Is the final map secret, or is it available from the first page, and can I examine it?

The server copy of the .map file will not be made available for inspection, at least not till after the game.

Regarding your issue, I see all the mountain provinces I added when I load up the game. The freshwater terrain masks don't show up in the game for some reason (and I actually don't recall if they supposed to show an icon or not) but I can confirm they ARE in my version of the .map file (also visable via the map editor) which Gandalf was given.

If you load up your turn and right click on province 212 for example (in the north center of the map (3 provinces down from the north edge), and then move your cursor to the info box in the top left corner over the mountain icon, you will see that is indeed a mountain province not a border mountain. I can provide a screenshot if you are still having an issue. Someone else feel free to confirm this observation. I'd hate to think I am going mad.:D

[Numahr]

I have to say that I am little disappointed by the way the situation was handled.

I would have asked for a delay if information delivered to me had been transparent, i.e. if the official "external timer" had not lied to me. But I trusted it, and arranged complicated professional / personal life parameters so that I would connect to the servor in the timeframe given to me by the timer. In no circumstances I would stale, and if information had been clear about how much time was actually left, I would have dealt differently with all the afore mentioned constraints so that either I would send a delay request, or more probably, send my turn.

So what happened?
- Yesterday morning I got instructions for my turn from our new captain. I was in office, where no connection to the servor is possible: I checked the time left, it was 48h. So I thought "OK, I can play my turn and send it toonight."
- Then unexpected RL life constraints popped up, preventing me from accessing the internet the evening. Based on the informaiton I had accessed earlier, I know I could still send my turn the next morning and not be outside of the timeframe.
- At this point, let me remind you that depending on our RL constraints, some of us have different access to the internet. So I have to organize my schedule according to the info I get from the admin, relying on it, which is perfectly OK for me as long as the info I get when I have one access is not a false one.
- Then this morning I run again out of luck and my whole neighborhood got an electricity blackout. Again, if I knew that hosting interval had changed, I could find a solution, like finding an internet cafe. But I knew that electricity would come back before the hosting time I had seen 24 hours ago was over.
- And finally... disaster, when I eventually connected, I realized that the information based on which I had organized myself and made difficult decisions during 24 hours, had been a false one.

Now I feel very bad for having staled and jeopardized the whole game for my team, it is not like a regular MP game where each player is responsible only for himself, my situation has now consequences for the whole team and the whole delicate game balance.

Moreover, I have the feeling that I created this situation although I based my decisions on official information provided to me by a webpage set up by admins of the game.

So, in light of the events described, I would like to kindly request the admin to:
- consider again re-hosting the turn in question;
- provide reliable, transparent information to the players on hosting intervals from now on, and in particular avoid manual shortening of hosting intervals announced on the external timer.

I hope these requests will sound reasonable.

As a final note, in case these requests are not considered, I will continue the game, taking into consideration the unreliable nature of the external timer and following very closely the more complicated forum to know what is exactly happening with delays. But continuing the game will be more a matter of having a responsible behavior towards my team mate and all of you, rather than having fun.

[ano]

Septimius
Why are you against the rehost? It would be fair under these circumstances as it was definitely not numahr's fault. I will also accept either decision but it is a very bad precedent.

In general, I second numahr's requests, particularly the second one. Also, if there're problems with restarting the server/changing the timer they should be publicly announced before the weird situation like the one we have now occurs. You may not know, but I will tell you that in no game I ever knew hosting intervals were shortened in the way like it happened here.
I would really hate such **** happen to me so I definitely second Usurpers' request for a rehost. But you may ignore, of course (it seems to me that your strict "no rehosts" intention hinders the flexibility that is a necessary characteristic of any good leader).

[ano]

Also, after the consultation with my teammates I may say that our team in general supports the rehost.

[Numahr]

I would like to add some additional information for the admin's consideration.

- the game is specific, with a need to coordinate between team members and a captain ;
- but this turn, in particular, was indeed very special: a change in captaincy in our team. I had actually prepared a turn based on previously defined strategy just a few hours after the hosting; but did not upload it in the knowledge that a new captain would probably change the team's strategy.
- it took some time for the new captain to confirm his position, to analyze the situation, debate with us on our forum and then formulate the turn's strategy;
- in this context all the events I described above took place (unexpected RL events and failure in electricity supply), with which I could perfectly cope IF either of the following two had not occured: change in captaincy AND wrong information provided by the external timer.

One can see that the parameters are indeed totally exceptional, with a very unlikely combination of many events combining to create the situation. So if an exceptional decision is made in view of the situation, I doubt it will ruin the overall structure and rules generally applicable to the game, as every one will understand it was made due to exceptional circumstances.

Thanks for your kind consideration, and don't doubt that I will abide anyway by any decision made.

[AlgaeNymph]

Also, after the consultation with my teammates I may say that our team in general supports the rehost.How gracious of you, thanks. :)

[zegc-ben]

I would also be for a rehost since everybody seems to accept it and we are here to have fun, not to go for victory at any cost. btw I haven't check my turn yet.

[ano]

Septimius
In case you still insist on "no rehost", please postpone hosting by 24h because all our team is waiting for your decision and thus not doing anything. Also, I have a working day tomorrow.
And, obviously, the same applies to the Usurpers

[chrispedersen]

Not only that .. I haven't gotten a turn.

[chrispedersen]

When I add fresh water tags they show up... Also.. I've looked at all 35 mountain provinces I have access to .. and found 1 mountain.

This hardly sounds like the change I requested.