*** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

This thread will serve as the official discussion for the proposed TNG-Mod - A Star Trek Mod for SE:IV Gold based on the "The Next Generation" timeline.

The original proposal is here:
Original Proposal (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=005729)

You can find the link to the TNG-Mod homepage in my signature. It gives a brief description of the Mod and has a link to a growing list of techs and ideas for the TNG-Mod.

Already I have recieved some help + files from some people and I'm looking forward to getting more. Don't worry if you don't have a lot of time or maybe the know how to Mod - even an idea can be helpful.

I'm still looking for some volunteers to help make some SEIV style shipsets. I kind of want to make the Federation shipset myself, but if you would like to make another one of the six races, just let me know.

I plan on putting together some of the basic common components tomorrow as an indication of my commitment to the Mod. I will try to post updates often.

Remember - The more help I can get, the sooner the Mod will be done and the better it will be

So, if you think you'll use this Mod - a friendly contribution of some ideas, play testing, or just plain old text editing - would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in Advance, Luke aka Captain Kwok

[ June 10, 2003, 05:55: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Nobody has made any comment on my Propulsion and Defenses post, back on the old thread you linked to.

Speechless with awe? with horror? Just haven't finished reading it yet?

[Captain Kwok]

SJ - Interesting idea for the nascelles but I think the propulsion model with stick with the SE:IV standard except larger ships will require additional engines per move. It will follow the same level as the mounts for weapons do.

Light Mount - 1 engine per move - 150 to 300kT
Medium Mount - 2 engines per move - 400 to 600kT
Heavy Mount - 3 engines per move - 800 to 1000kT

I believe this system will work towards balancing the firepower/kT of the ships and make it quite feasible to use ships of all sizes for the duration of the game.

The damage idea though I am interested in. I haven't experimented much with the different armor options but it seems like your idea is quite fitting with Star Trek. I think I will try a few experiments and see how it goes.

The forum has been down almost all day so I haven't been able to check for any replies so that's why I haven't made any comments earlier.

What do you think of some of my test images? I think they turned out pretty good and once I do some touch ups even better. I even put together a Klingon Vor'Cha Attack cruiser and it looks good too!

[Taz-in-Space]

I'm kind of interested in seeing how fighters are handled in the Star Trek universe. From what I remember, there wasn't any mention of fighters or fighter carriers in any Star Trek series. Perhaps you could rename them Gunboats or something and use them only for planet/system defence. Or perhaps keep them as a tech for Neutral races.

[Thei R'vek]

Actually, if you think about it, shuttlecraft(Federation), runabouts(Federation) and scoutships(Romulan) classify as fighters in the ST-TNG universe, so those would naturally be the names that the fighters take on in the TNG-Mod....

[TerranC]

Federation relied on fighters and shuttles in warfare somewhat. But they use a *carrier*: Akira and that... kitbash... thing. Forget the name.

Romulans really didn't but they seemed to have runabouts. They have cloaking devices.

Klingons make no metion of Lifeboats; shuttles; or runabouts.

Dominion had Fighters that were about big as the Defiant; go figure.

Borg uses NO FIGHTERS WHATSOEVER.

Ferengi uses Shuttles.

Breen doesn't mention one.

Cardassians have the Hidekis. The small snakes that get bLasted a lot.

[Taz-in-Space]

Yea, and that would make the fighter bay a shuttle bay! I like that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Klingons using lifeboats? Oh, the dishonor!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 30, 2002, 05:21: Message edited by: Taz-in-Space ]

[Captain Kwok]

That's incorrect. The Federation did use fighters in several battles with the Cardassians and Dominion in Deep Space Nine. They were similiar in design to Maquis ships.

I was thinking of making fighters into a racial tech, so the Federation would have a small Shuttle, Runabout, and a Peregrine Class fighter and would be carried in a shuttlebay component.

Depending on the race, some would have fighters but most would only have a shuttle/scout sized vessel instead.

Cardassian Hideki class ships would be more suited as escort-sized ships.

[Taz-in-Space]

Found the following on the web:

Class A - Gas Supergiant Planets of this class are usually found in a star's outer or "cold zone". They are typically 140 thousand to 10 million kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures causing them to radiate heat. Low stellar radiation and high planet gravity enables them to keep a tenuous surface comprised of gaseous hydrogen and hydrogen compounds.
Class B - Gas Giant Class B Planets are usually found in a star's outer or "cold zone". They are typically 50 thousand to 140 thousand kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures but do not radiate much heat. Low stellar radiation and high planet gravity enables them to keep a tenuous surface comprised of gaseous hydrogen and hydrogen compounds.
Class C - Reducing Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have high surface temperatures due to the "greenhouse effect" caused by their dense atmospheres. The only water found is in vapor form.
Class D - Geo PLastic Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15,000 kilometers in diameter. They have a molten surface because they have been recently formed. The atmosphere contains many hydrogen compounds and reactive gases. Class D planets eventually cool, becoming Class E.
Class E - Geo Metallic Planets of this class have a molten core and are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15,000 kilometers in diameter. Their atmospheres still contain hydrogen compounds. They will cool further eventually becoming Class F.
Class F - Geo Crystaline Class F planets are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter and have surfaces that are still crystalizing. Their atmospheres still contain some toxic gases. They will cool eventually becoming Class C, M or N.
Class G - Desert Planets of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are typically 8 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. Their surfaces are usually hot. Their atmospheres contain heavy gases and metal vapors.
Class H - Geo-Thermal Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone" or "cold zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have partially molten surfaces and atmospheres that contain many hydrogen compounds. They cool becoming Class L.
Class I - Asteroid / Moon Planetary bodies of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are usually found in orbit of larger planets or in asteriod fields. They are typically 100 to 1,000 kilometers in diameter. They have no atmospheres. Their surfaces are barren and cratered.
Class J - Geo-Morteus Planets of this class are found in a star's "hot zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have high surface temperatures due to the proximty to the star. Their atmospheres are extremely tenuous with few chemically active gases.
Class K - Adaptable Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are adaptable for humanoid colonization through the use of pressure domes and other life support devices. They are typically 5,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have thin atmospheres. Small amounts of water are present.
Class L - Geo-Inactive Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone" or "cold zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. Low solar radiation and minimal internal heat usually result in a frozen atmosphere.
Class M - Terrestrial Planets of this class are found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have atmospheres that contain oxygen and nitrogen . Water and life-forms are typically abundant. If water covers more than 97% of the surface, then they are considered Class N.
Class N - Pelagic Class N planets are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have atmospheres that contain oxygen and nitrogen . Water and life-forms are typically abundant. If water covers less than 97% of the surface, then they are considered Class M.
Class S - Near Star Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "cold zone". They are typically 50 million to 120 million kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures causing them to radiate heat and light. These are the largest possible planets, because most planetary bodies that reach this size do become stars.
Class T - Gas Ultragiant Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "cold zone". They are typically 10 to 50 million kilometers in diameter. They have high core temperatures causing them to radiate enough heat to keep water in a liquid state.
Class Y - Demon Class Y - Demon Planets and planetoids of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. Atmospheric conditions are often turbulent and saturated with poisonous chemicals and thermionic radiation. Surface temperatures can reach in excess of 500 K.
Starfleet Note: Communication is frequently impossible, and transport may be difficult. Simply entering orbit is a dangerous prospect. No known environment is less hospitable to humanoid life than a Class Y planetary body.

Some planet classes have SEIV analogs others don't...

[Captain Kwok]

Here is the main lineup for Federation ships:

Escort - Nova Class
Frigate - Inteprid Class
Destroyer - Defiant Class
Light Cruiser - Excelsior Class
Cruiser - Nebula Class
Battle Cruiser - Akira Class
Battleship - Galaxy Class
Dreadnought - Sovreign Class

However, I think I will add a few additional racial hulls for ships like the Steamrunner or Prometheus class ships.

[TerranC]

Class D - Geo PLastic Planets

I thought PLastic was man made and not natural?

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Escort - Nova Class
Frigate - Inteprid Class
Destroyer - Defiant Class
Light Cruiser - Excelsior Class
Cruiser - Nebula Class
Battle Cruiser - Akira Class
Battleship - Galaxy Class
Dreadnought - Sovreign Class<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You wanted help, Mr. Kwok. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Methinks; since you said that this was to be in TNG, it should go like this:

Escort should be oberth; predecessor of Nova.

Intrepid shouldn't be in there, since their *Foldly go where no man has folded before* nacelle is after they find out that the Feddies pollute space with their warp engines.

Excelsior, even though VERY OLD, is still pretty large; maybe cruiser?

Miranda should go in there, as it is still widely used by starfleet.

Technically, Ent-D is larger than Ent-E; just that Ent-D has a reputation for getting fragged lots; even by a single warbird.

Streamrunner, Norway, Sabre, Galaxy, Miranda, Excelsior, Olympic, Nebula, Defiant, Akira, Various Cheap looking shuttles, Sydney, and Constitution are *Trekkie* Approved for TNG.

[Captain Kwok]

Ships in General:

Klingon
-------
Small Klingon ships will tend to the multi-sized Birds of Prey. Larger Klingon ships will be based on the Vor'Cha design and the largest ships will be the Neghvar or similiar design.

Romulan
-------
Romulan small ships will be similiar to the scout ships seen on TNG. Larger ships will be various designs of warbird like ships.

Dominion
--------
Small Dominion ships will be a few various themes on the Jem'Hadar fighter design. Larger ships will include the battleship and super battleship designs seen in several DS9 episodes.

Cardassians
-----------
Cardassian ships will include the Hideki, Galor, and Keldon designs plus a few custom variants to fill the gaps.

Ferengi
-------
Ferengi ships will generally be similiar to the Maurauder design but I might choose to do some custom designs to flesh out the fleet.

The Borg
--------
A few sphere, cube, and diamond designs will round out smaller ships with larger cubes for bigger ships. Additional hull sizes will be added to create the big borg ships like the Tatical cubes and such.

[Captain Kwok]

Yuck. No Oberth and especially no Mirandas - they were just cannon foder for the Dominion.

The Mod is actually takes place later in the TNG timeline after the Dominion War.

Excelsior class ships are large at about 440m but they are small in actually volume and based on fire power below most other Federation ships.

Akira is about 450m, Nebula is about 450m, Galaxy is 641m and Sovreign 670m.

Sovreign will be the Dreadnought for sure as it carries much more firepower than a Galaxy class ship although it occupies less volume.

I will probably add more ship hulls and make some images for them...I have really enjoyed making ships today - so much so that I might not want any help to finish them!!!

[ May 30, 2002, 06:06: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

Few thing to think when making variants.

Klingons: Two Nacelles, Dagger/knife shaped, long neck and dark green plating. Add some rust to the texture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Romulan: High Tech, Bird in Attack position shaped, long neck, hollow inners for big ships, light green plating.

Cardassian: Big head, small tail. Snake shaped. Has to look Industrial or practical. Dark Beige in color always a bridge protruding from front or middle.

Dominion: Purple. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ferengi: Try to focus on Ferengi Race Symbol and make some variations on it. Another thing to remember: *Dog eat Dog world*

Borg: Polygons. Any Polygons will do, if it seems Efficient. So No Octagons or Pyramids.

Edit: And I gotta say, I have never seen a more cuter Borg cube.

*Ahh crap a borg cube... But it's so small and cute and... assimilated my ship.*

[ May 30, 2002, 06:07: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Captain Kwok]

TerranC - Have you seen the couple of images I put together so far? Check the TNG Mod page and scroll down. I added some textures today.

As we speak I am working on the Nebula and Akira class ships. Nebula is easy as all I have to is reconfigure the ship parts and add a couple of pods. Akira is a bit more challenging but is shaping up to look nice.

I have made a Klingon Vor'Cha attack cruiser as well. I will post it once I make some textures for it.

[ts22]

Wow. This all sounds really cool! I wish I had heard about it a few weeks ago!
Sometime Last month, I got fed up waiting for someone to create a "big" Trek Mod so I started designing my own. I am about 30-40% done but now I hear about this. If I would have know about your mod I would never have started mine. Oh well. Perhaps, you could use some of the ideas I've already added in my unreleased mod.

Btw, I don't intend or want to "steal your thunder." I think this is a great mod and totally dig your ideas of new ships, etc. But, I've actually found that making a mod is almost as addictive as the game itself so I am going to continue with my mod anyway. There are many differences b/t what you are creating and what mine will end up being, but I'll post about mine later.

Now-(finally) getting to the point of helping you out. I got SJ to add some of the pics I had collected to the ImageMod. I think they would be useful in your mod too. These are just Component files now (ImageMod Version 1.11 I think) but I am planning on adding Facility pics to the ImageMod once I reach that stage of my design process. The new ImageMod pics include pics of things such as Federation Phasers, Romulan Disrupters, Bathleths, Different colors of Warp Reactors, Ferengi Mind Control devices, etc. Anyway, just check it out if interested. Also, I have completed all weapons and armor types for the basic 5 trek races plus the dominion (I'm adding the Borg after much play-testing). After I have tested them out and reworked them, I'd be willing to let you take a look at or use those files.

Best of luck with this mod! I am really looking forward to playing it!

[Captain Kwok]

I've updated the site with a little more information about the propulsion and colonization models I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here are some more General Ideas regarding facilities:

Facilities - In general, facilities like Mineral Miners et al, Research + Intelligence centres, and Spaceports/Depots etc, will remain common to all races. Bonus facilities like Citizen Databank, or Computer Complex will become unique racial facilities like Tal'Shiar Headquarters or Daystrom Institute. Ship training will be handled by race specific Fleet Academies and Fleet training by Command Centres.

I am also looking for a little creative license to fill out each race. For example, the Ferengi might use an "Anti-Proton Beam" although the series did not ever suggest that. So, if you have any ideas along those lines feel free to add them as well.

[Captain Kwok]

I've had a couple of questions in regards to cloaking. This is what I propose:

I will increase the number of cloak levels to 5 and adjust the natural cloaks of nebulae accordingly. All races will have access to the cloak tree until level III - with only the Klingons and Romulans access to IV + V as suggested by Mac5732. All races will have access to sensors that can detect cloaks.

Hyperoptic Sensors I-III - Defeat level I-III cloak
Tachyon Sensors I-V - Defeat level I-V cloak
Gravitic Sensors I-V - Defeat level I-V cloak

I also think I may decrease the size of sensors and cloaks to 20kT while keeping them a little on the expensive side.

I'm currently working on updating the tech list and will hopefully post it on the site later today.

Edited for a typo.
Please continue to send/post comments or suggestions. Thanks.

[ May 30, 2002, 20:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

Ok. I gave the tech list on the TNG site an update with a couple dozen entries. I will stick a little *Update # each time I add something to it so that you can check it out.

I need help with coming up with more custom facilities and components...feel free to suggest everything that comes to mind. It doesn't have to adhere to Star Trek canon but should fit in with the demeanor of the race.

My brain is sore from thinking of ideas - I think I'll work on some ship pics because it's a bLast and wait for more replies.

[ May 30, 2002, 21:42: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Rich04]

Every few months someone tries to take up the banner for a trek mod. I love the idea.

An excellent source for trek technology and starships is Spacedock.

This can be found for free at
http://216.40.212.6/trek/core/comp_core_netbooks.htm

There are also books on several of the major races.

Hope you find it useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[TerranC]

Go to these sites for your help.

Ex Astris Scientia (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/) - General Info of Trek

The Daystrom Institute (http://www.ditl.org/) - General Info of Trek Ships

Omicron Theta (http://hielke.josthalen.homeip.net/trek/index.html) - Info of Specific Tech, also with a acronym table

Star Trek Schematics (http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/cgi-bin/federation.cgi?Official) - a good help if you are lost on designs.

[Suicide Junkie]

SJ - Interesting idea for the nascelles but I think the propulsion model with stick with the SE:IV standard except larger ships will require additional engines per move. It will follow the same level as the mounts for weapons do.

Light Mount - 1 engine per move - 150 to 300kT
Medium Mount - 2 engines per move - 400 to 600kT
Heavy Mount - 3 engines per move - 800 to 1000kT<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't see how this is going to work. You can't make mounts that will increase an engine's thrust; component mounts don't change ability amounts.

If you're making these manually, and simply naming them "light mount engine I", then players are just going to stuff the maximum amount of the highest efficiency drive on every ship they own.

Can you explain what you're doing with these engines a bit more?

Class D - Geo PLastic Planets

I thought PLastic was man made and not natural?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"PLastic" in this case in referring to the opposite of "Brittle", or in other words, the surface rock is smushy, play-doh like stuff. (Don't touch, very hot!)

Ablative Armor I-III (Reflecting Armor)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Ablative" means that bits of it come off when it gets hit. Nothing to do with reflectivity, and shininess really means nothing in Trek Combat.

Also, I believe in the first contact (TNG) with the Ferengi, they used a WMG on the enterprise. (Rapidly switching Tractor/Repulsor beam)
You could use that name for their racial weapon. (probably not good to use anything like the SE4 stats)

[ May 31, 2002, 00:10: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

[Captain Kwok]

SJ - You misunderstand. I am not trying to devise a mount for engines - that is impossible.

Ships that use "Light Mount" for weapons like a frigate will use only one engine per move. Ships that use "Medium Mount" for weapons like a light cruiser will use two engines per move. Ships that use the "Heavy Mount" like a battleship will need 3 engines per move.

The reason for this is that the ships that have the bigger mount weapons (hence, more damage/kT) will need to use more space for engines.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ - Regarding the Ablative armor it actually dissapites the incoming energy first and then if the damage is too severe breaks off.

[Suicide Junkie]

RE: Propulsion.

So, you've pretty much given up on the entire nacelle thing, and the nacelles only exist in the pretty pictures of the ships?
The engines you're talking about making seem to have no relation to any ST system.

SJ - Regarding the Ablative armor it actually dissapites the incoming energy first and then if the damage is too severe breaks off. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Everything has a heat capacity, plus a little bit of heat conduction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The ablativeness of the armor kicks in to throw excessively hot flakes of armor into space where they won't harm the ship they used to be sitting on.

It dosen't reflect the beam or anything. Just sacrifices bits of itself for the good of the rest of the armor.

[Fyron]

Kwok:
Did you happen to look at the file that I referenced in the other thread? It has some Trek facilities that I made. Here it is again, just in case:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015288527.zip

Oh, and btw, the Last I checked, the Ground Combat modifier ability for facilities did not work.

[ May 31, 2002, 04:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Captain Kwok]

SJ...

Actually I was thinking of something like this:

Nascelle Engine
"Engine coil in a ship's nascelle that generates movement for the ship"

Think of them as the little coils in the cutaway pics of the nascelle. They would remain as 10kT comps and would generate 1 standard movement points with increasing movement bonuses as the tech level increased. There would be ten levels with every two representing an expensive and cheaper Version. As previously mention larger ships would still require more engines.

As you suggested - "Impulse Engines" would be 20kT and generate only combat movement. There would be 3 tech levels with each level generating a 1,2, or 3 bonus. Only One per ship allowed. However this might change. It a recent beta of SEIV, MM added "One per Ship" to "Ten per Ship" for comps. Maybe we can make impulse engines to 10kT with 1 bonus and 5 levels with a max of 3 or 4 per ship.

I would like to cap the max speed for ships around 10-12 for System movement and 10 for combat movement.

Fyron - Yep. I got the facilities before. Thanks. Some good ideas in there.

[Captain Kwok]

...and I know the little coils are really warp coils but hey, I think it's good enough.

I was goint to make engines without supplies and requiring a reactor (aka warp core/anti-matter reactor) that stores supplies - then get rid of the supply storage altogether. There would be maybe 5 tech levels each holding a certain number of supplies (from 2500-10000?) before needing to be replenished.

SJ - About Ablative armor - what characteristic should it have, nitpicker?

[ May 31, 2002, 05:41: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Fyron]

Ablative Armor:
Size- 1 kt
Damage Resistance- rather high (at least competitive with contemporary shields)

Fyron - Yep. I got the facilities before. Thanks. Some good ideas in there.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. I just didn't see very many in the list. Also, I didn't see any mention of me as a contributer. Sniff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Not that it really matters that much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, consider using my formations.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011027620.txt). It is a compilation of a lot of formations that I found in various mods a while back. I plan on updating it after the next patch, which will up the slots to 100. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Fyron - Woops I knew I was leaving someone out...and don't worry more of your facilities will make it in. I decided to keep the basic research and intelligence centres as are but use racial ones for the bonuses...so a few of those ones would be in. Plus that list is far from complete.

I don't want to make the armor too small - most likely 5kT+.

[ May 31, 2002, 06:19: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Fyron]

Ok.

If the armor is 5 kt, then it loses the "ablative" feel to it. Maybe 2 or 3 kt? I mean, 5 kt is half of normal armor. Ablative is supposed to have small chunks peel off, not 50% of the stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Oh yeah, making it 1 kt is good. It is supposed to have a higher Damage/Kiloton ratio than contemporary shields, so if it is 1 kt, it will take a long time to repair. Mostly a balancing issue.

[ May 31, 2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Atrocities]

Is there anything I can do? Perhaps come up with a nice DesignNames for each race. Will that help? I want to help, so let me know.

[Suicide Junkie]

As you suggested - "Impulse Engines" would be 20kT and generate only combat movement. There would be 3 tech levels with each level generating a 1,2, or 3 bonus. Only One per ship allowed. However this might change. It a recent beta of SEIV, MM added "One per Ship" to "Ten per Ship" for comps. Maybe we can make impulse engines to 10kT with 1 bonus and 5 levels with a max of 3 or 4 per ship<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no point in making the impulse drives two-per ship or three-per-ship.
Combat movement dosen't stack, at least not on multiple copies of the same component.

You might try making "Primary Impulse Engine" and "Secondary Impulse Engine" as components with different family numbers. If that dosen't stack, nothing will.

I was goint to make engines without supplies and requiring a reactor (aka warp core/anti-matter reactor) that stores supplies - then get rid of the supply storage altogether. There would be maybe 5 tech levels each holding a certain number of supplies (from 2500-10000?) before needing to be replenished.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is this going to be a "supplies = power generated", or "supplies = fuel" system?

I still think we could give all of the bonus movement points to the main reactor, rather than to high-tech nacelle coils.

Now, if you're going with a supplies = fuel system, leave the reactor and all drives supply-less. Losing the reactor means you most of your speed, and some other miscellaneous abilities. Have antimatter storage pods store 5000 supplies or so worth of fuel.
Too bad my suggestion for "explodes when destroyed" ability wasn't implemented http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Would have been nice to use here.

If you're going with the supplies = power, the impulse drives should generate 100, the main reactor 1000, and auxiliary reactors 50 each (about 1/6th the space taken by an impulse drive).
Scale to fit, and tweak the systemtypes.txt to ensure an invisible star in every system.

PS: Thanks, Fyron, for arguaing all of my armor points for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 31, 2002, 14:56: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

[Captain Kwok]

SJ - Ok. That's right - I don't know what I was thinking about the combat bonus not stacking. That solves one problem.

If we give the bonus move points to the reactor than it will make it vulnerable to engine-destroying weapons too right? So maybe we'll do that. Also, I don't want the reactor to generate supplies - so that means you'll have to refuel every so often (aka replacing your dilithium crystal etc). Ramscoops will replace solar panels and generate only a small amount of supplies - so that the ship still has a net loss of supplies per turn.

How about making Anti-Matter Pods (good thinking!) for emergency supplies instead of supply storage?

I've had a little trouble understanding how the exploding panels work - perhaps you can provide me with a sample component so I can see it in action?

And another armor point - ablative armor is not five times stronger than shields...it's tought but not that tough. If we make it too strong than everyone will use it for protection (even if it does take effort to repair) instead of shields + armor and aside from that silly "Endgame" batman armor VOY episode - Federation ships just don't do that. It should be equal in strength to make shields.

How much armor would you put on a ship in kT? I usually have 20-80kT depending on the ship. Maybe make most armor 4-5kT in size? That means about 5-20 components per ship which is more than enough to get that wounded feeling.

In regards to the no-true carriers etc - what do you think? Make sense?

Atrocities - name files would be greatly appreciated!

[Captain Kwok]

Ok. I updated the site making some info changes regarding the propulsion model and updated the tech list with some more comps and added most of the general facilities. I also edited the previous engine model adding to it some of the new ideas.

There is another issue creeping up. Should some races have additional bonuses while others do not? For example, Klingons are not scientists - should they still get research modifiers? On the other hand they would probably get a couple of combat bonuses instead to balance it out. However, I'm sure some races might be at a general disadvantage such as the Cardassians or Ferengi since they are less advanced on Star Trek - do you think this is okay?

[ May 31, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

The Ferengi are supposedly about the same as the Federation in TNG; as their maurauders can give some damage to a Galaxy Class.

But the thing is, The Federation is advanced on one side (Scientific), while the Ferengi is on the other (Economy). Also, ships are really expensive so only big business are allowed to have them.

+5 to trade
+5 all resource aptitude
-10 to Maintenance

Cardassians have the ability to research faster than the Federation; but don't have the moolah to make up for it; hence the occupation and genocide and all that.

+5 Research
-10 to mining and radioactive aptitude

Klingons are also scientific; but have bloated military budgets and science doesn't seem honorable.

+5 Space Combat
-5 Maintenance Aptitude
-5 Repair Aptitude
-2 Research

Feddies are Scientific, versatile, all around good guys; Although their defensive maneuvers don't always work to their favor, and scheming ways are taboo. Newer class ships are not always built all the time, but Resourceful crews keep ships in top shape.

+5 Research
+5 Defense
-5 Space Combat
-5 Space Yard
-5 Intelligence
+5 Maintenance
+5 Repair

[ May 31, 2002, 20:58: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Suicide Junkie]

For example, Klingons are not scientists - should they still get research modifiers? On the other hand they would probably get a couple of combat bonuses instead to balance it out. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds like cultural choice.

If you want to strictly enforce it, by making a part of the "Klingon" racial tech area, then you'll have to make all research centers require the racial techs as well as the normal tech...
Then, a klingon analysing a fed research center would gain generic research tech. This would allow the klingons to go from "Klingon Research Center I" to "KRC II", say. (If research centers could be analysed; just replace research with energy weapons, or whatever tech)

If we give the bonus move points to the reactor than it will make it vulnerable to engine-destroying weapons too right?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It should. You could also try giving it a "standard movement" ability of zero if it dosen't count as an engine just by having bonus movement ability.
Be sure to increase the engine limit by 1 for the ship hulls!

Also, I don't want the reactor to generate supplies - so that means you'll have to refuel every so often (aka replacing your dilithium crystal etc). Ramscoops will replace solar panels and generate only a small amount of supplies - so that the ship still has a net loss of supplies per turn.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, no. Those were two different cases.

You can have supplies = power generated. That means the main reactor, the impulse drive's fusion reactors, and any auxiliary reactors you wish to add will all generate as much supplies as they store. Fuel capacity would be ignored, and we could say that the maintenance costs include too-small-to-see civilian ships coming to refuel & restock the ship.

OR you can have supplies = fuel, as unmodded SE4 does.
None of the reactors produce any supplies, or store supplies, rather they just provide abilities. In this case, the antimatter pods would provide all of the supply storage for the entire ship.

You can't mix those two options.

I've had a little trouble understanding how the exploding panels work - perhaps you can provide me with a sample component so I can see it in action?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name := Midrange Armor Class 1A
Description := An all-purpose protective plating. Less overall strength that Light armor,
but not as easily pierced by weapons fire. (Absorbs a higher % of hits)
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 3
Tonnage Structure := 25
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := All
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 5201
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := None</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since the "armor" has 25 hitpoints, and most of the internals are less than 25, this component will be hit more often than the internals.
That makes it act like armor.

However, it is "more often" is not "all the time", and some shots will hit internals before the armor.

The only thing that you need to change about the internal components in order for this to work properly is to make sure they all have fewer hitpoints thatn the armor.

This applies mostly to large or heavy mount weapons, but this is a trek mod, and we want the weapons to be disabled easily once the shields are down, so their hitpoints should be low anyways.

How much armor would you put on a ship in kT? I usually have 20-80kT depending on the ship. Maybe make most armor 4-5kT in size? That means about 5-20 components per ship which is more than enough to get that wounded feeling.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like to devote about 40% of my ship to defenses. That's 200 KT for a cruiser.

If it were to be 50:50 shields to armor mass, 2KT ablative armors would be OK, for 50 components.

That would mean a ship that just barely survived the combat would take 6 months to repair at a Repair Bay III.

1 KT ablative armor would be better, but you seem intent on having those massive armor plates.

And another armor point - ablative armor is not five times stronger than shields...it's tought but not that tough. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know where you got that idea. When me or Fyron say "strength comparable to shields" we mean hitpoints per KT size is comparable.

If a shield element is 10 KT, and 500 hitpoints, a 1KT ablative armor would be 60 hitpoints, say.
An armor-only ship would spend a year in spacedock for every month that a shield-only ship spent. And that's only if the ships were thrashed to within a few components of destruction.
A shielded ship can lose half its hitpoints every battle and never weaken, while the armor-ship would be dead after two battles.

In any event, the armor and shields are complimentary.
Having more shields will allow you to deflect a greater percentage of the incoming damage, and the armor allows your shields to maintain that deflection rate longer.

All armor = no damage reduction = ship is screwed.
All shields = minimal damage reduction = ship is screwed.
(generators are destroyed by the first partially penetrating volleys, and so the crystalline effect has almost no time to operate)

Edit: post was breaking the boundaries of the screen

[ May 31, 2002, 21:12: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

[Captain Kwok]

No. Since I am making production, research, intel bonuses part of the racial tech, some races like the Klingons would not have facilities like "Computer complex" to generate extra research points. They would be limited to just the regular research labs...

Or we can just reduce their natural ability in the culture file. Either way is fine.

SJ:

Supplies = Power (Usually from Anti-Matter)

In regards to reactors. The supplies represent the anti-matter in the reactor needed to power the reactor - in that sense it generates all the power the ship needs. Once that anti-matter is depleted than the ship is out of power and has no supplies. Anti-Matter Pods will hold extra anti-matter. Impulse engines could provide a little power from their reactors but not much. Ramscoops collect interstellar hydrogen which is just a minor power source.

Does that clear things up?

[ May 31, 2002, 21:59: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[PDF]

As for modifiers : IMO some should be represented by special facilities, as Kwok proposed, but others, such as trade capacity of Ferengi (so increased trade revenues + maintenance reduction+ natural merchants !), or cunning of Cardassians, have to be racial modifiers...
Armor : in Trek world there's no real armor IIRC, so they should be rare... but I'm more of a TOS and SFB guy than a TNG one, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

PS: Thanks, Fyron, for arguaing all of my armor points for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No problem!

Armor : in Trek world there's no real armor IIRC, so they should be rare... but I'm more of a TOS and SFB guy than a TNG one, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... wrong. There are several races that do not use shields, and instead rely on powerful armor, such as the Hirogen.

Klingon's should get engines with high damage resistance. In DS9, their's were the only ships capable of resisting the Breen energy weapons that knocked out power systems and such.

[Suicide Junkie]

Supplies = Power (Usually from Anti-Matter)

In regards to reactors. The supplies represent the anti-matter in the reactor needed to power the reactor - in that sense it generates all the power the ship needs. Once that anti-matter is depleted than the ship is out of power and has no supplies. Anti-Matter Pods will hold extra anti-matter. Impulse engines could provide a little power from their reactors but not much. Ramscoops collect interstellar hydrogen which is just a minor power source.

Does that clear things up?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Sigh*
No.

You say "supplies = power", but then you describe "supplies = fuel"

If you are going with a supplies = fuel (standard SE4 system), then your ships will always have enough power to run all their systems 100% all the time. Until they run out of fuel, then weapons, shields, engines, etc, all go offline.

Definitions:
Power: Energy (used) per unit time.
Fuel: Total energy capacity.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ:

Yeah, ok, so technically you're right P = E/t. I've been very absent minded today. Anti-Matter is but the fuel. The important part is that it looks like we're getting to a good system for propulsion.

Geez - where would I be without SJ kicking my butt?

One reason why I do not want to get too complicated with propulsion requiring lots of different components is for programming the AI - I want the AI to be the best it can be and make the TNG Mod fun to play solo as well as multiplayer.

Back to another issue regarding cultural modifiers and racial abilities. Should all races have equal access to production/research/intel bonus facilities and just allow the cultural modifiers to be the penalty for a poor race attribute or should we restrict access to bonus facilities that contribute extra points to a race's weak field and also reduce their ability with a cultural modifier?

I've continued to build some ships and just need to add some texture maps for the Federation Defiant Class destroyer.

As usual, continue to send in ideas for components and facilities as there can never be enough of those. I'm not sure if anyone noticed but I added some extra cloak levels plus a few stellar manipulation techs. I'm calling the warp point opener a "Transwarp Conduit" but may also consider it a "Wormhole Generator"? This is kind of a slippery slope explaining the warp point system in star trek terms but it's an important part of the SEIV game. If MM were to include an ability where a created warp point closed after a turn then we could create a warp engine that generates the warp point and impulse to handle system movement but that seems unlikely.

That's all for now. Thanks for all the e-mails and input so far.

[ June 01, 2002, 06:25: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

Where would we be where SJ doesn't nitpick everything? Political incorrectness run amok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On the idea of warp generators, I thought maybe you could use some of the Voyager ideas *although purely scifi-babble* of using catapults and powerful reactors to pull ships in and out.

Kinda like the Caretaker's Array.

The only catch should be is it can only be opened in bases; as a ship with such reactors can have big implications on Trek, as it does in SEIV.

[mottlee]

OK I'll bite.....where is the mod? I did not see any links? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Magnum357]

I'm BACK!!!!!!!

Hey guys, been away from the Shrapnel forum for way too long. SJ knows who I am, the rest probably don't. Been away because of school but have the summer off now. Just found out about this "Star Trek: TNG" Mod a couple of days ago. Glad somebody is trying to make a good mode for Star Trek. I plan to comment and help out anyway I can to make this mod possible.

I was actually planning to make an SFB mode for this game, but got bogged down with school. Not even sure if anyone would be interested in an SFB mode.

2 things I would like to suggest though, one could we please be very careful about adding stuff from Voyager? I was never a great fan of the show and prefer the TOS, TNG, and especially DS9 shows better. The second thing, would anyone object to adding SFB ideas and Races to this mode? I know its not Star Trek cannon, but would add a unique flavor to an ST:TNG mod if you had the Borg going against say the Andromedans. Might not be possible to add every bit of SFB to this mode, but would could get fairly close.

Looking forward to helping ou the Captain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Unfortunately I do not see any of SFB in the initial release(s) but perhaps in the future a few of races can be incorporated into the Mod. Currently the Mod takes place after the Dominion War and will tend to adhere to most Trek canon as establish by the TV series with a little extra to help flesh out the major races.

Mottlee - This Mod is still in the planning stages. The TNG Mod link is in my signature and features some information about the Mod. I've just started to put a few things together to get to organized and hope to make some progress tomorrow with basic comps etc. Once some solid ideas are established then the work can be distributed to several people and completed faster.

I've had a few questions regarding the Systemtypes file. The current file will be arranged to distribute planets realistically with rock planets close to the sun with ice/gas giant planets further. I've got a couple of files already like this and will take a look and see if they're good to go. Since it seems most Trek races breath oxy/rock perhaps it would be wise to give a slight increase to the chance of these planets appearing. However, I'm also open to the idea of the races breathing different atmospheres - what do you think?

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I'm also open to the idea of the races breathing different atmospheres - what do you think?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Different Atmosphear...
Nah; we want to keep it Trek, we have to keep the shortsightedness of the writers.

That Includes:

Drives of the week
Everybody speaks perfect english (With a few lucky exceptions)
Someone bad becomes Someone powerful becomes someone annoying becomes someone dead with a phaser bLast
Starfleet is the best
Exploding Consoles
Dead-on *literally* Ensigns

[Taz-in-Space]

I'm also open to the idea of the races breathing different atmospheres <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well there were a few that races that breathed other atmospheres. And some, like the Borg, that seemed not to need an atmosphere! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I think the current trek mod had a the increased chance for Rock/oxygen.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings again.

I'm going to start work on the actual components file today with some of the common techs.

I'll probably update the site with some new stuff today as well.

Keep sending in ideas. Also if people can send in sharp images of race emblems would be good too.

If you have Moray/Pov-Ray skills and would like to make some stuff for the Mod; e-mail me.

That's all for now.

[ June 02, 2002, 16:15: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[mottlee]

KOOOL! looking foward to it (I like all types)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I ended up changing the warp core reactor from what was discussed earlier in the thread.

I had hoped to make it store supplies and provide bonus movement which is easy enough. Here is the problem though: If I give the bonus movement abilities to the reactor than it will surely reduce the number of engine levels and that might make research boring.

This is what I have done to remedy this:

There are now 5 levels of reactors providing 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500 and 5000 supplies and requiring Anti-Matter Harnessing I-V. There are now ten tech levels of propulsion for Nascelle Engines.

Engine-Standard-Bonus
I-1-1 Require Propulsion I + a.m. I
II-1-1 Require Propulsion II + a.m. I
III-1-2 Require Propulsion III + a.m. II
IV-1-2 Require Propulsion IV + a.m. II
V-1-3 Require Propulsion V + a.m. III
VI-1-3 Require Propulsion VI + a.m. III
VII-1-4 Require Propulsion VII + a.m. IV
VIII-1-4 Require Propulsion VIII + a.m. IV
IX-1-5 Require Propulsion IX + a.m. V
X-1-5 Require Propulsion X + a.m. V

I tied in Anti-Matter research to the propulsion -so in essence better engines need a better power system.

I think this works good. I tried to give the two components a value equivalent to the cost of 6 engines which would occupy the same space as the reactor and nascelle engines. Once playtesting begins then this value can be adjusted.

That's all for now.

[ June 03, 2002, 03:55: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

One reason why I do not want to get too complicated with propulsion requiring lots of different components is for programming the AI - I want the AI to be the best it can be and make the TNG Mod fun to play solo as well as multiplayer.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I fail to see how the system was complicated!

Ship between 1 and 250 KT:
Add one engine
Ship between 251 and 700 KT:
Add two engines
Ship between 701 and 900 KT:
Add three engines.
Ship between 901 and 1500 KT:
Add four engines.

The AI files are set up perfectly for that sort of thing.

*sigh*

Oh well.

[Suicide Junkie]

All the same things apply to the Full-nacelle system.

The only difference really, is that the speed is dependant on your reactor, and not your nacelle configuration.
You just need enough nacelle(s) to enclose your entire ship in the warp field, and then you throw bigger and bigger reactors into the ship to go faster.

The reactor would provide a lot of secondary abilities too, any of which could be used to make AI choices for less-than-maximum speed ships. If you like.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ...

It would work fine and the AI could easily be programmed to handle it except for the problem I mentioned earlier (the post 3 down from this one). I think that system works the best for both the AI and human players. It makes good sense too. The reactor uses the Anti-Matter (supplies) that provide the fictional "power" to the engines that actually move the ship. It also makes sense that better engines (more movement) require better reactors to go faster. However, I would like to add some kind of second ability to the reactor, got any ideas aside from movement?

Edit:

If you have the "nascelle engines" just called "nascelles" and make them larger you also run into the problem of having, say, 4 on a ship that clearly has maybe 2 nascelles in the pretty picture. Calling them "nascelle engines" implies they are ambigious engines hidden within the nascelle that move the ship, so it doesn't matter how many there are...

[ June 03, 2002, 22:12: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

This?
If I give the bonus movement abilities to the reactor than it will surely reduce the number of engine levels and that might make research boring.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All of those tech levels will be part of reactor research!
You don't lose any, they just give you reactors instead of engines.

[Captain Kwok]

But SJ...

*sigh* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Do you mean a single area of research that gives you engines and reactors? I don't know...but that's kind of a "supertech" area. Plus it doesn't make much sense to have the reactor do movement...it doesn't...it just provides "power" to the engines that do the moving.

It makes more sense to have them independent of each other as a research area but also have it so they are tied together in pratical use and should be researched concurrently...ie...better engines need better reactors...it makes perfect sense...and is more flexible than the other proposed system. I think it's the best thing since there is no true warp ability.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ:

What I was referring to was avoiding having comps that provide the same kind of movement - this would give trouble for the AI at choosing the intended components.

Now though it should be easy:

AI should only has "Nascelle Engine" for standard movement.
Have condition for 10kT for ability "Supply Storage" for Warp Core.
Have condition for 10kT for ability "Combat Movement" for Impulse Eninge.

However...I choose to make "Nascelle Engines" at 10kT with a standard movement of 1 with varying bonuses depending on the tech level. That means a ship with 5 will move 6 at the beginning of the game and 10 at the max tech. Remember larger ships will require more engines to move. Now if we were to make them bigger (say 20kt) and give them a standard movement of 2 but then it will decrease flexibility in speed - you would either have commit 40kT or 60kT and with the 10kT of warp core that is 70kT. With smaller engines you can set up a wider range of ship speeds and that is why I choose to make 10kT comps.

[Captain Kwok]

Ok.

I haven't had much time during this week to work on the Mod as I have started a new job. However, during the weekend I should be able to much more work. I hope to have most of the common components done shortly. Perhaps if someone wants to volunteer to work on some of the data just send me an e-mail and I let you know what you can do to help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

There is still a shortfall in techs for the races...please continue to suggest ideas...even if they are not pure Trek Canon...

I most likely won't update the TNG website until Saturday but it should have lots of new information when I do.

Thanks for all the ideas so far. Please continue to send more!

[Suicide Junkie]

Do you mean a single area of research that gives you engines and reactors? I don't know...but that's kind of a "supertech" area. Plus it doesn't make much sense to have the reactor do movement...it doesn't...it just provides "power" to the engines that do the moving.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its the wheels on your car versus the combustion engine under your hood. Once you have four wheels, all you need to go faster is a bigger engine. As long as your chassis is not scraping the ground, more (horse)power = faster speed.

It makes more sense to have them independent of each other as a research area but also have it so they are tied together in pratical use and should be researched concurrently...ie...better engines need better reactors...it makes perfect sense...and is more flexible than the other proposed system. I think it's the best thing since there is no true warp ability.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course. Matrix tech areas.
-Research into containment fields and construction materials lightens the reactor.
-Research into High Energy Physics improves the max speed (power output).
-Research into antimatter manipulation makes the reactor harder to destroy.
-Research into mass production / manufacturing techniques reduces cost.
- anything else you can think of.

[Captain Kwok]

True...but the warp reactor isn't the combustion engine but basically the fuel tank...but I like the ideas you mentioned below.

[ June 04, 2002, 23:50: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
True...but the warp reactor isn't the combustion engine but basically the fuel tank...but I like the ideas you mentioned below.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fuel Tanks = Deuterium Reserves
Warp Reactor = Combustion engine

If the warp reactor was just a tank, they wouldn't have to eject the damn thing if it became unstable and evacuate the crew.

Of course if you are talking about in the sense that you are going to use Warpreactor as a tank, I haven't the slightest idea what's going on and I'm sorry for interrupting.

[Phoenix-D]

"If the warp reactor was just a tank, they wouldn't have to eject the damn thing if it became unstable and evacuate the crew."

A fuel tank full of antimatter or other nasty substances would have to be ejected if it became unstable too.

Loosing containment on enough antimatter to power a warship for months would be slightly detrimental to the ship's health..

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

If the warp reactor was just a tank, they wouldn't have to eject the damn thing if it became unstable and evacuate the crew.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, if the reactor was just a tank of antimatter, they would really want to get a few hundred lightyears away from it before it exploded.

Although the reactor is not a fuel tank, it does have a significant amount of antimatter flowing through it in order to operate. (Fuel lines and gas in pistons)

Problem with antimatter, is that even a tiny amount can really make a mess.
A one-kilogram cloud of antimatter produces the same energy as a 40 megaton nuke when it annihilates with your reactor's wall.

EG:
The Yamato's destruction was due to leftover antimatter in the reactor core, even after most of it was flushed by the emergency systems (which were disabled by the computer infestation before they finished their job)

[Captain Kwok]

When I called the reactor a fuel tank - it's just to simplify the situation. Of course it does more than just store fuel...but if you're gas tank became unstable on your car - look out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

TerranC...Deuterium is the fuel used by the Impulse fusion reactors to power the Impulse engines. In the Mod, impulse engines which supply combat movement only also store a small amount of supplies as well.

[ June 05, 2002, 02:41: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

When you say "fuel tank", that makes it sound like you're talking about the "real" Trek Tech.

If instead you said "Supply storage" we would know you were talking about an SE4 ability.

[Atrocities]

Would ships created using the DOGA program be acceptable for the mod, or do you want to keep the ships looking simular as they currently do. You know made from the same graphics program.

BTW, what graphics program are you using? I would love to learn it.

[ June 05, 2002, 11:11: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Gandalph]

I have ripped custom weapons sounds from the Bridge Commander game and they are available here (http://home.attbi.com/~ezc/Weapons.zip). I thought they would make a nice addition to the realism of the mod.

[ZeroAdunn]

Hey, captain Kwak, really nice ships. Can I get a copy of the MDL files from ya?? Please???

If your willing you can send them to me at: AaronHSteffen@msn.com

Waddya say???

[Captain Kwok]

Gandalph: Thanks for the great sound effects...they fit right in with the current SEIV sounds and even gave me some ideas for more techs...

Atrocities: It's a little bit of a learning curve but if you need help just send me an e-mail and I can help give you pointers.

ZeroAdunn: I think I'll post the mdl files at some time or another but not quite yet...do you have Moray skills? If so, maybe you can build some comps or one of the ship sets...it's really not that hard...most of the ships are just different uses of spheres, cylinders, rectangles...with image maps...

SJ: Ok. I'll talk in SE Modding terms from now on... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I use Moray to make the 3D pics and Pov-Ray to render - which isn't all that hard to use once you fool around with it for a bit. A lot easier than most 3D programs. They are both availible as shareware. Just do a search on Google for the Moray homepage - it's like a 4mb download and also look for the POV-Ray download link on the Moray site...

I would prefer to avoid DOGA, but other 3D programs should be able to attain the similiar look.

[Atrocities]

Thanks. I'll check it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Magnum357]

How about this little addition?

Was wondering if this would be a good idea for the TNG mode. I've notice Nebulas and Storms in SE4 have the ability to "Clock" (I guess that is what they do) any ships or units in the game. What about Astroids? In my own custom mode, I have been thinking about making Astroid Feilds able to clock ships at maybe only level one. That would mean Levels 2 and higher for scanners would easily be able to see through the sensors. What do you think?

[Magnum357]

Whoops! I mean "cloak" not "clock". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[TerranC]

Magnum, You can use the Edit Button on the top on your post to edit your Posts, after you've seen what the error is.

Asteroids should have a damaging effect to ships. NOT UNITS however; as they would be nimble enough.

Asteroid's damage to vessles should be set on the size of the asteroids. Huge to Huge damage to small to Minimal damage.

The damage on asteroids should be fought off with armor, but maybe if it could be implemented, fought off with shileds more effectively rather than armor.

Just my 2 cents.

[ZeroAdunn]

Magnum Don't change it! It is so much funniar as clock!

As for Kwok (get it, clock, kwok???) sure I have some pretty good skills with moray, I would love to do some work. Send me what you've got and I'll get started. Would you also like some new nebulas?? I've got a bunch of them lying around. Seriously, whatever you need let me know, I am always happy to lend out my graphic design skills. This applies to anyone else who needs them.

[Magnum357]

Hey TerranC, thanks for the suggestions. I never thought about having them damage ships, but I still think an Astroid feild have some cloak ability for ships and units. Think of it as a tradeoff, bigger the astroid feild, the more cloaking ability yet the increase of damage.

[Krsqk]

IIRC, sector damage, like mine damage, bypasses shields completely. Apparently, it's not common practice to use shields while traveling through dangerous enemy-infested territory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Regarding damage in asteroid fields...remember star trek ships have navagational deflectors and shields that protect them in such a situation.

I suppose you could give some a small proportion of asteroids an obscuration level based on some wierd mineral deposit...you could even introduce an occassional planet with some kind of atmospheric condition that interferes with sensors. Those are common trek occurences.

ZeroAdunn: My moray mdl files are usually connected with some hefty image files that I use to skin the ships and makes for some size...I probably can send you a couple of rough ships though without the good textures.

[ZeroAdunn]

Captain Kowk: That sucks. I was hoping to get a full file, with all the textures. I am still working on my texturing skills and seing how somebody else does it would really help me out. Oh well, do what you can and I will try and help you out.

[Captain Kwok]

ZeroAdunn: Are you aware that you can create bitmaps and use them as textures on your models? That is how I get all the little windows or numbers and things like that. It takes me very little time to throw together the rough model but a long time to make all these little images for different parts of the ship...especially when you keep on revising them...

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I have made a minor update to the TNG site including updating the tech list with a few new components and details.

I've also added a status section with a brief comment and edited the General Mod info to reflect the current state of the Mod. The next update should be Saturday afternoon EST.

-----

ZeroAdunn: What I can do is send you some simple models and texture examples with comments on how I did them. I won't be able to do that until Saturday though.

-----

Mag357: How about sending me a few stellar ability type entries for obscuring asteroids and planets...?

-----

That's all for now.

[Taz-in-Space]

Just had a thought about the star trek universe.
I remember quite a few times that ships in the star trek universe HID using stars. Is it possible to MOD the system types file to include this automatically for generated maps? I did this via the map program for a small map and it took a while. IMO a map that had stars that you could hide in (maybe taking damage also in trade-off) would add to the experance.

[ZeroAdunn]

Actually in star trek ships could hide practicly anywhere. This is because star trek occasionally emplored reallalistic physics and realised you can not scan through a stellar body such as a star or a planet. If you were going to do this you would have to apply it to just about everything. Actually that could be kind of cool.

Kwok: yah I know. I am just not very good at applying them. Seriously, if I could get a copy of a couple of files with all their associated image files it would be a real help.

On a side note, what do you use to create the texture maps? I personally use Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator for all my needs.

[Captain Kwok]

Begin Transmission...

-----

I don't think it's a good idea to have all stellar objects with an obscure ability. I would prefer to have an occassional asteroid or planet with the ability making it kind of a lucky find in which to hide those invasion fleets.

-----

Another Thought: I feel that experience is too powerful. I was thinking of reducing the maximum levels to perhaps 10% and hopefully encourage more even battles between equally matched fleets rather than the lopsided battles that too often occur in SEIV.

-----

ZeroAdunn: I use Adobe Photoshop 6. It is sometimes challenging to devise a good image map for objects. I'll send you some things tomorrow with some hints that I use...keep in mind that I'm no expert. I hope it will be helpful.

-----

End Transmission.

[ June 07, 2002, 23:35: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

Unfortunately I didn't get the kind of time I needed today to do some major work as I had hoped. The site underwent a minor change with some new images but not much else.

I'm occassionally found at the #SE4 room on the gamesnet.net chat server. There is usually a few people present at any one time now.

Here is a sample component image I made. It's a Nacelle engine...I'm going to add a blue glowing strip to it and it will be finished.

http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/images/nacelle-engine.gif

BTW - How come no one has mentioned that I've been spelling NACELLE NaScelle for the Last ten years?

Edit: Image wasn't displaying.

[ June 09, 2002, 01:26: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[ZeroAdunn]

Kwok: Ahhhh, photoshop 6, one step ahead, still stuck with 5.5, kinda sucks.

[Magnum357]

Hey Kwok, what do you mean by that Last message below...

"Mag357: How about sending me a few stellar ability type entries for obscuring asteroids and planets...?"

Could you tell me what you mean by this?

[Suicide Junkie]

Entries from stellarabilitytypes.txt are in the form:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name := Normal Storm
Number of Poss Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Chance := 250
Ability 1 Type := Sector - Damage
Ability 1 Descr := Turbulence causes damage to space vehicles.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 200
Ability 1 Val 2 := 1
Ability 2 Chance := 250
Ability 2 Type := Sector - Sight Obscuration
Ability 2 Descr := This storm is opaque to most scanners.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 3
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Chance := 250
Ability 3 Type := Sector - Sensor Interference
Ability 3 Descr := There is heavy radiation causing combat sensor interference.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Chance := 250
Ability 4 Type := Sector - Shield Disruption
Ability 4 Descr := Ion radiation renders all shields useless.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Captain Kwok]

Mag357:

I thought since you came up with the idea of the obscuring asteroids/planets, you could make a few entries and send them to me for the Mod.

Look at SJ's example. Use the obscuration level ability. Remember in the Mod - there are 12 (not 5 as in vanilla SE4) levels of cloak and sensors.

I suppose I could whip it up but I rather I get some help or the Mod is never going to be done.

[ June 09, 2002, 13:55: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Me and and the Captain were discussing the defenses on IRC (#SE4).

To summarize:
-Internals have from 1 (lifesupport) to 5 (Nacelle parts) hitpoints. Higher hitpoint components are more likely to be destroyed first. The average for most ships should be close to 3 hitpoints per component.
- Shields are 20kt each, and run from 15 to 150 after ten tech levels. Hitpoints should be 5 each.
- Early armor will be about 0.5hp/kt. This could rise to maybe 4 or 5 by the time shields reach 7.5 hp/kt.
- Armor segments should have about 10 hitpoints each, in order to be hit first most of the time.

Calculation: An early tech ship of 200 kt (such as the new trek series enterprise) can expect to have about 60 hitpoints of shield/armor plus a bit of crystalline effect, and 40 hitpoints of internals. The ship would be beyond repair after about 10 solid hits from low-tech particle beams (meson bLaster I's).

[ZeroAdunn]

Ok Kowk, here to put in my two cents:

--:Federation:--
1: Add a smaller size drone, call it a probe, give it just enough space for one or two engines and long range scanner.

--:Dominion:--
1: I think Ketracil white facilities should give bonuses to ship combat insystem (without the Jemhadar would be unable to run the ships)

2: The Dominion should have cloning facilities that increase the rate at which population grows and then there reproduction shuold be set extremely low.

--:Ferengi:--
1: Give them some sort of facility that gives them Ultra - Recycler ablities.

2: Have you thought about giving them a component that reduces ship cost? I think it would fit for them

--:borg:--

1: Give them a crew converter (change the name to assimilation drones or somthing), this would make them even more devestating and more like the borg from TNG.

2: Here is how I would do the borg shields, make them weaker than everybody elses but make it so they regenerate fully in one turn.

3: Give them troops that are extremely hard to kill (very high damage resistance) but don't do a ton of damage. This would allow a representation of the borg attempting to assimilate a planet instead of just conquering it and aliens putting up resistance.

--:General Components:--
1: Explorer bridge (-10 offense, -10 defense, +1 movement, maint reduction)

2: Plus two repair on engineering is a bit high, you might want to think about reducing it.

3: I would remove the shield regenorators. It seemed in TNG once shields were down you were screwed.

4: You might want to increase construction time for ships. It seems to take a long time to build ships.

5: My idea for a deflector: Every ship must have (don't know if this is possible) provides 2 shield generation and 2 shield regeneration.

[Suicide Junkie]

For the Ferengi, they should probably also get some large resource storage facilities, in order to more effectively trade.

Borg:
Definitely enough regeneration each turn to hold of 2 or three ships of the same era.
Also, give every borg component Organic Armor Regeneration abilities.
In the latest Gold patch, it works the way we need.

General:
#2: Each turn is a month long... I'm sure the engineering crews can fix more than one component in that amount of time...

#3: Yep. Regenerators would mess with the partial-shield-skipping system.

#5: I dunno, the deflector isn't really used in combat (except for technobabble solutions), it's for clearing junk out of your path while travelling fast.

[ZeroAdunn]

SJ: I know, I just thought it would look better if every ship had a deflector component.

[Captain Kwok]

ZeroAdunn:

If you go to the TNG Mod site and check out the link that lists the current techs - you'll see many of those ideas are already in.

I do need more Ferengi ideas though...

Regarding Armor:

I've been working on armor and these are the results so far:

Armor I-III - Standard Armor req. Armor I-III

Duranium Armor I-III - Stronger Armor req. Armor IV-VI

Polarized Armor I-III - Armor w/ slight crystalline armor ability - req. Armor I-III + Shields I-III

Structural Integrity Field I-III - Hardens Armor w/ inc. hp/kt and damaged first - req. Armor IV-VI + Shields I-III.

Notes: Armor in this Mod no longer has the "Damaged First" ability (except S.I.F.) but is still most likely to be hit first since they have much more hp's than other components. Armor is also small in size (1-2kT) - so expect repair times to jump.

Federation has access to Ablative Armor. Borg to have Regenerative Armor. Not sure, but might have Reactive armor (similiar to Ablative) and some other types for unique race techs.

Next up is Shields + Sensors. As SJ has mentioned shields will be a little porous allowing some damage to squeak through. They'll be two types: Regular (10 levels) and Multiphasic (Phased, 5 levels). There may be a few custom types too...but that is unclear right now.

Since I'm now working during the week, I have less time to work on the project but check the Gamesnet.net IRC chat in room #se4 from time to time and I might be there looking to discuss the Mod further.

That's all for now.

[Captain Kwok]

Zero Adunn:

I'm staying away from Deflector comps because there is already beginning to be too many comps that are needed and I want small ships to be useful throughout the game - not to be at a major disadvantage since they cannot cram all the extra goodies on board.

[ZeroAdunn]

Actually Kwok, I was at the site when I was righting stuff down. I didn't see any of the stuff I listed on the list. That is why I posted it.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

SJ and I had another good IRC session and have developed quite an interesting system for mounts that works with the proposed shield system.

</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Some races like the Federation will have access to mounts called "Arrays" and "Banks" which give more raw power but less piercing ability.
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Others like Klingons will have access to mounts that have less power but increased piercing ability.
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The actual numbers are still being worked out but I'm sure SJ will make us a spreadsheet demostrating his numerical prowess.
Since I actually have this Saturday to myself, look for an update to the TNG Mod site that will explain the armor/shield/mount system much better.

I'm still looking for help to make some of the other data files like stellarabilities and sectortypes; so if you would like to do this, contact me and I'll let you know what is needed

That is all for now. I'm going to bed.

[Derek]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:

SJ and I had another good IRC session and have developed quite an interesting system for mounts that works with the proposed shield system.

</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Others like Klingons will have access to mounts that have less power but increased piercing ability.
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting idea. How do you restrict access to the different types of mounts, for races that cannot get those types, since the compenhancement.txt file doesn't have entries for tech level, or race type, or anything like that...
Derek

[Suicide Junkie]

I whipped up the spreadsheet with mount calculations, and even a damage simulator.
You can fill in the base weapon damage, and CA points per generator, and see how much hull damage you take from any mount vs 1,2 or 3 shield generators.

I want to add in a bit more still, such as calculating the damage based on having an equal space set aside for the weapons.
As it is now, the hull damage numbers are for a single mounted weapon, when you could fit more array mount than heavy mount in th esame space.

[ June 11, 2002, 15:02: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Derek]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Yep. Here it is in 1.72:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 8. Added - Mounts now support "any" weapon type, component families, maximum
vehicle size, and tech requirements. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah. Not being privy to the next patch, I had no idea.

I'm glad to see that willbe implemented; it will add even more variety to the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Derek

[Suicide Junkie]

Here is my Mount Calculator 3.xls (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1023833729.zip), in Excel v5/v7 format.

It was pretty hard to get good numbers for the resulting hull damage, and I ended up resorting to surprisingly large and small mountings!
The mount values I played with are labelled "New xyz mount"

The results table at the bottom has an interesting effect.
If the absorbtion percent is less than 50% for all mounts, the arrays clearly to the least hull damage. However, once the shield strength rises close to 50% absorption for unmounted guns, the arrays start to do MORE hull damage.
That would be because of the 50% limit for crystalline effect; once the unmounted guns are being absorbed 50%, the reduced piercing ability of the banks and arrays no longer has an effect, while the higher efficiency begins to deliver more damage to the target.

The relative hull damage amounts have been scaled to show the resulting damage from a volley of shots, coming from all the guns you can fit into the space of an unmounted gun.

IE: A "Newarray" mount will get 8 times as many shots as a "NewHeavy" mount, since it takes up 1/8th the space.

[ June 11, 2002, 23:25: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Captain Kwok]

I do not like the new mounts. It is too much of a disadvantage to use the medium and heavy mounts because there would be fewer of them on a ship and a weapons miss would really put the ship in a hole.

Although the numbers are better - I work with them a little bit and see what I can come up with...

[ June 11, 2002, 23:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

Kwok:

As a devoted Trekkie, I feel I have to point this out.

The tactical cube you made from Moray that you show in your page is NOT a TACTICAL CUBE.

That's a Fusion cube from the Game Armada, which is not considered offcial trek data.

Here is what it looks like:

Borg Tactical Cube (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/stmagazine/class4-tac-cube2.jpg)

Sorry, but I really want a Genuine trek mod for me to tweak and enjoy to a level of unhealthy obsession http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ZeroAdunn]

Ahhh, the cube with a flak jacket....

[Captain Kwok]

TerranC: Wasn't a fusion cube featured in one of the Borg vs 8472 episodes of Voyager or at least some episode? I swear I remember seeing it there and not from Armada.

[TerranC]

It's from armada. Sorry.

[Captain Kwok]

Yeah, you're right. I thought I remembered a Voyager episode with it but I looked it up and I was mistaken.

However...I will include it with the Mod. The reason for this is because if I followed the Trek series to the mark...much of the race tech would be heavily towards just the Federation since they are featured week after week. So, a little liberty is being taken to help flesh out all the races.

[ June 12, 2002, 00:02: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

Derek:

I believe that mounts can be restricted by tech in the next patch.

[Suicide Junkie]

At least its a cube, and not one of the other funky shapes that Armada had the borg using.

I mean, sheesh! Everybody knows the borg only use Cubes and Spheres! They're efficient designs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Regarding the mounts:
I really don't see the problem with the large mounts. They are just as likely to get a lucky string of hits and be ahead of the game.

The arrays reduce variability in hit rates, while the heavy disruptor mounts will increase variability.
The feds don't like to live dangerously, while the klingons do.

If you as a player don't like to take risks in combat, then play a federation type race (or even as the borg if you are really scared of getting hurt). The true warriors will be Klingons! &lt;thump chest with fist&gt; http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 12, 2002, 00:06: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Captain Kwok]

Yep. Here it is in 1.72:

8. Added - Mounts now support "any" weapon type, component families, maximum
vehicle size, and tech requirements. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

It is able to work that because of the way that are shields are designed with the crystalline armor ability. SJ can probably explain better in terms of percentages and such.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I've been a little busy for the Last couple of days, so I haven't been able to do all that much. I have tomorrow to myself, so hopefully I'll be able to get a lot of stuff done.

I tested the shields and they work well albeit a little bit different than described earlier. In general, a large salvo against a ship will often damage the hull but leave some of the shields intact. Currently, weapon and shields strengths need to have their costs and strengths adjusted.

Look for an update on the TNG Mod site tomorrow that will include lots of new information.

I need one or two people to help make additional sector type and stellar ability type entries.

Please continue to send ideas as my e-mail box has grown empty in the Last week or so.

Thanks.

[Suicide Junkie]

I tested the shields and they work well albeit a little bit different than described earlier. In general, a large salvo against a ship will often damage the hull but leave some of the shields intact. Currently, weapon and shields strengths need to have their costs and strengths adjusted.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The shield meter shown by SE4 with blue boxes only indicates how much more damage the shields can absorb without leaking.

Once the meter reaches zero (or very small numbers), your shields are beginning to collapse.
They will continue to deflect up to 50% of the damage, depending on the piercing ability of the weapon, and the number/tech level of shield generators you have remaining.

Only once your generators have all been destroyed, are your shields truly down.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I have re-worked the TNG Mod site and added some new information. Check it out and let me know if you catch a spelling mistake or want to add a link to your site. The link to the site can be found in my signature.

I'm still working on the Mod as much as I can but it's a lot of work.

I would like to mod the random events and intel projects files with some more trekkie entries - would anyone like to do this?

Edit: The forum is really empty today.

[ June 15, 2002, 23:19: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

Hello!

Work is continuing on the Mod albeit a little slowly at the moment. I'm still working on adding the comps and doing graphics whenever I have the time.

ZeroAdunn has begun work on the Cardassian fleet and it's looking good. He has also donated some of his time working on new events and intel projects. Thanks Zero!

I'm still looking for help in regards to adding more sector (planets, stars) and stellar ability types (storms, nebulae) for the mod, please let me know if you want to donate your time, thanks.

I'll continue to post and update the site every so often with the latest news/status.

Thanks again!

[Atrocities]

The mod you are working on will be most impressive.

[Suicide Junkie]

My WonderSystems addon (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/Miscellaneous/wondersystem.txt) for the systemtypes.txt

There is a planetary system colliding with a storm, which provides lots of cloaked planets, dangerous energy fields, and various other effects around the planets. A great stronghold position where attackers will have to bring in many specialized ship designs.

A nomadic planet & moon system. A nice, dense package of territory, but no star means resupply may be a problem.

A unique planetary system with lots of dual planets. These are just cool to have. Romulans might like to start here.

[QuarianRex]

I just have a couple of things to say.

For the Borg:
Try using regenerating boarding parties instead of an alliegence converter. It works beautifully (I use it in my borg mod) allowing multiple boarding attempts in a combat and also allows an adequadetly prepared defender a chance to avoid assimilation (through security stations, shields and the like).

Also, making every component on a cube regenerate isn't really necessary. I found that a reasonable complement of borg armor (regenerating), assimilation drones (regenerating boarding parties), and neural link (regenerating master comp) was more than enough to protect against all but the most unholy of foes. More substantial combat damage would be repaired by assimilation nodes (20kt shipyards capable of using zero resources but repairing 3,5, or 8 at levels 1-3) and repair nodes (10kt with repair 1, 2 at levels 1 and 2. Also, the assimilation nodes, while incapable of manufacturing anything, allows on-the-spot studying of captured ships (assimilation) and retrofitting (adaptation).

As far as borg shields regenerating every turn, I think that it would be better to have th crystal armor ability instead. The borg tend to be greatly outnumbered in combat and need immediate shield adaptation rather than replenishment after the damage is done.

As for propulsion:
I hope that you would reconsider SJ's ideas in that department. The design of the nacelle was based on the shape of the ship, to (loosly) contour the warp field to the outline of the ship. After that they were left alone (as in not upgraded) with little attention paid to them except damage repair for the occasional plot device. It was the warp core that got tweaked for a little extra speed, it was the warp core that was retrofitted to boost speed from warp 4 to 5 (or was it 5 to 6?) on one episode of Enterprise.

Essentially it is a simple system (and easy to implement) that is much truer to the spirit of trek. I just don't like the idea of packing the nacelles full of "engines". It just makes the nacelles seem like some sort of rocket that is directly providing propulsion or somesuch.

SJ: Originally I was against the idea of any kind of QN propulsion in trek (since it isn't) but I like the way that you used it as a rationalization for using multiple nacelles. I have to ask though, what is with your propensity for akward numbering? Why say that a nac should provide 7 movement while saying that the hull sizes would require 7, 14, 21, and 28 engines per move as hull size progresses, when you could have just said that the eng give 1 mov and hulls need 1, 2, 3, or 4 eng/mov. My sleep addled brain had to read it twice to make sure that there wasn't some actual reason for it.

P.S. Please pull the defiant out of the normal ship sizes. Seeing the federations most powerful warship portrayed as a paltry 200 or 300kt runt brings a tear to my eye. It was designed to counter the borg after all. Perhaps save it as an advanced prototype (maybe also requiring military studies or such) that while remaining somewhat small has access to specialized mounts (such as pulsed weapon mount and a compact component mount to fit more into its small frame) that other ships are denied. I understand that this will actually be possible in the next patch.

These were just some ideas. I hope that they can help (and are coherent, it is very early here...).

[Suicide Junkie]

SJ: Originally I was against the idea of any kind of QN propulsion in trek (since it isn't) but I like the way that you used it as a rationalization for using multiple nacelles. I have to ask though, what is with your propensity for akward numbering? Why say that a nac should provide 7 movement while saying that the hull sizes would require 7, 14, 21, and 28 engines per move as hull size progresses, when you could have just said that the eng give 1 mov and hulls need 1, 2, 3, or 4 eng/mov. My sleep addled brain had to read it twice to make sure that there wasn't some actual reason for it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 7 movement would be provided by "small" nacelles. "medium" would give 8, "large" give 9.

So, you could have a lightcruiser require 2 small nacelles (14 epm), while a full cruiser requires 2 medium nacelles (16 epm).

Basically, it is a way to force larger ships to use slightly larger engines, and keep a sense of scale.

But note that warp core tech and propulsion tech are closely linked with better engines requiring more advanced reactors. And for the other system being more simple - it is not and reduces research diversity.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I still disagree with that diversity statement.

Anything you can do with coil abilities you can do with the reactor abilities.
Plus the fact that losing the reactor in my system kills almost all non-tactical movement. (If the nacelles are still intact, you can use auxiliary power to achieve warp 1)

I have much debate with some who wanted the Defiant as a 150kT escort! But that is not happening - it is either going to be 300kT or perhaps a 350kT new hull - which allows it to be about equal in strength to an Excelsior class ship (recall DS9 episode with the Lakota/Defiant battle). Unfortunately you cannot create mounts specifically for a single type of ship.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You didn't quite read the Last sentence, there.

In the next patch you can specify an upper limit on the valid hull size for a mount.

This means you can make the defiant 155 KT, and have defiant mounts which are limited to ships in the 154 to 156 kt range.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ - Losing the reactor in the current system also results in no non-tatical movement either unless you have emergency thrusters or anti-matter pods to provide a little power.

Woops, I forgot about the hull specific mounts...perhaps then the Defiant can get it's own specific mount for its size afterall.

I wasn't sure what to do with a computer core...it seemed no specific ability was quite applicable...however I got an idea. While there would be no computer core component - Computers would be a research area needed to fulfill the tech requirements for many different comps as they get more advanced. For example, better computer tech needed for more advanced sensors, reactors, etc.

That's all for now.

[Cylapse]

It was the warp core that got tweaked for a little extra speed, it was the warp core that was retrofitted to boost speed from warp 4 to 5 (or was it 5 to 6?) on one episode of Enterprise. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When did this happen? Ive latched onto Ent as the one -real- good trek show since DS9... I cant remember them actually upgrading the core? Can ya provide insight?

[QuarianRex]

Cynapse:

I can't remember the exact episode (I have only been able to watch Enterprise sporadically, though I like what I see) but it was a little quip in the beginning of an ep that stuck in my head since it correlated so well to SE4 and such. I'll keep my eyes out to see if I can spot the rerun.

Kwok:
I didn't think that you would budge on the engines, though I must still cast my vote on the side of the core providing movement and not just being a supply tank, but is there any comment on the borg components? I think that regenerating boarding parties are the way to go. More realistic and fair than an alliegence subverter. What about the rest? I have found that the assimilation nodes are key and add a whole new feeling to playing the Borg.

[Captain Kwok]

QuarianRex:

In regards to propulsion - they are several reasons why the current model was chosen. First of all, the warp core only supplies the power to the engines. It is actually the warp coils inside the nacelle that generate the propulsive forces that move the ship - aka nacelle engines for simplicity. But note that warp core tech and propulsion tech are closely linked with better engines requiring more advanced reactors. And for the other system being more simple - it is not and reduces research diversity.

I have much debate with some who wanted the Defiant as a 150kT escort! But that is not happening - it is either going to be 300kT or perhaps a 350kT new hull - which allows it to be about equal in strength to an Excelsior class ship (recall DS9 episode with the Lakota/Defiant battle). Unfortunately you cannot create mounts specifically for a single type of ship.

[jimbob]

sir Kwok,

Hey, good stuff. I'm really impressed with the stuff you've put together so far (just from reading the Posts, haven't downloaded yet).

Have you guys put in things like replicators and the like yet? I agree with someone (about three pages back) that the Ferengi could use recycling systems on their ships (a la nomads recycling nodes in P&N) and maybe all ST races should have some Version of the recycling node due to the replicator technology. Or would they make small amounts of supplies from the warp core energy? Or both?

It would add a certain "flavour" to the game to have replicators. They could be smallish (1-2 kT) and have modest powers, but would make things fun (IMHO). And with the new patch you could limit the number per ship to say just 3 or 4 to avoid players using too many.

As to the warp core and the nacelles. It sounds like you guys have already put a lot of work into them, so I'll just leave it to you. The system sounds fine, but I'd like to suggest just one little thing. It seems to me (and I can't take all the credit, because I'll seen it discussed elsewhere) that the ST Capitalships are much more manouverable (though their top speed pales in comparison to SW capital ships) in actual combat. I'd just like to suggest that the nacelles should give a bonus combat movement or two. Because the nacelles are going to be matched up to the correct ship sizes, you won't have to worry about whacky movement bonuses occurring (like a galaxy class ship getting a combat movement bonus from a nacelle that belongs on a scout for example).

Them's my ideas for tonight, hope they help.

Edit: Oh, SJ, how do 'leaky' sheilds work?

[ June 20, 2002, 08:39: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[jimbob]

The Ferengi will have advance scrapping and recycling facilities...replicators are used to increase production. Perhaps some sort of generic facility could provide small amounts of resources produced artificially.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, facilities are good, though I was thinking more along the lines of components. It just seems to me that the replicator would have more of an effect on a ship's function than to provide "Earl Grey, hot" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

In short, the leaky shields work by using the crystalline ability.

You get 100% absorbtion until the SE4 shield meter reads close to zero.
Then you get at least 50% leakage as the crystalline effect kicks in. This Lasts a long time, but is progressively reduced as your shield generators get burned out.
The armor is leaky, too, since it dosen't have the armor ability. Instead the hitpoints are tweaked so that armor will be hit more often than other internal components. It is usually hit first, but not always.

That gives you the "exploding panels" effect, as internal components have a small chance to be destroyed even when there are still shields and armor remaining.

[ June 20, 2002, 19:14: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[jimbob]

Ahhh,
very cool.
You guys just amaze me with all those snazzy twists. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Jimbob...

I'm not sure about what a replicator component could so on a ship...perhaps give +1 repair or something to that effect. Other than that...most complex parts of a ship were not able to be replicated at least until Voyager. I'll see if anyone comes up with some interesting use for a ship replicator comp.

[TerranC]

Hmm...

Replicator

*allows construction of units
*+1 repair

#2000 Organics *Should be interesting*
#150 Supplies usage

[Captain Kwok]

Perhaps a large replicator component around 200kT would be suitable for building components especially mines or satellites. I don't think it needs to make organics or any other resource, but it should use a lot of supplies...thanks for the idea.

[tesco samoa]

replicators could also be a -2 to maintenance

[Captain Kwok]

Sir Jim Bob,

Impulse engines can be added to your design to give additional tatical movement. Top ships in tatical combat will be able to move around 10 squares per turn.

The Ferengi will have advance scrapping and recycling facilities...replicators are used to increase production. Perhaps some sort of generic facility could provide small amounts of resources produced artificially.

I'll have more to say later...have to go to work now.

[jimbob]

I was thinking that the replicators would be most useful in recycling material. The Captain eats a burger (mostly carbohydrates and protein) and then 24 hrs later has changed most of that into bacterial biomass, which is still primarily carbohydrates and protein, just in an unusable form. The captain's waste is then resequenced into usable food again (ie. burger take 2). That is the beauty of the protein resequencers (Enterprise) through replicators (ST:TNG).

So I suggest that the replicators should reduce maint. or generate very modest levels of supplies. Give em a 1 kt size, maximum 3 per ship, generate 25 supplies each month... that sort of thing. Sure not the most earth shattering effect, but I like the subtle things too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I think I'm going to go with the larger replicator capable of building units with a slight maintenance reduction.

The personal replicators don't really provide supplies (which in the Mod are considered fuel not all general supplies like food etc) they just use them, so they wouldn't have any benefit.

I was also thinking of some sort of maintenance reduction centre for ships...perhaps just for the Ferengi...any ideas on what would be a good name for it?

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
any ideas on what would be a good name for it?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Grand Nagus's Stow and Tow

Specializing in Federation Technology

[tesco samoa]

kwok did you get that file on the cloak example??

[Captain Kwok]

Tesco...

No I haven't recieved any files in regards to cloaking...when did you send it?

[tesco samoa]

i sent it to sj to look at... and to forward on to you

[jimbob]

The personal replicators don't really provide supplies (which in the Mod are considered fuel not all general supplies like food etc) they just use them, so they wouldn't have any benefit.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">granted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I was also thinking of some sort of maintenance reduction centre for ships...perhaps just for the Ferengi...any ideas on what would be a good name for it?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How about recycling node, as per nomads in p&n? It would be nice if races other than just the Ferengi could use this. In fact, any nomadic/trading race should really be able to build this device, which brings me to my next point...

Just in general I have a big concern. If this mod is merged with the B5 and SW mods, and everyone introduces exclusive tech trees to define the genres (lots of armor types in B5, droids in SW, recycling nodes & regenerating/crystaline sheilds in ST) then how can we capture other ships and gain their technologies? It seems to me that people will be sort of painted into a corner on what they can research, and ship capture will be pretty well useless. Guys like the borg and other 'pirate' races would be entirely hobbled if there are not enough races from their 'genre' present in their game. Technology trading will be pretty well useless as well, because heck, what could they actually trade when most of the useful components are from exclusive trees?

I'd like to propose some alternative mechanisms to the exclusivizing of the "genre tech trees", but would anyone be interested?

Just my $.02

cc/ B5 mod thread

[Captain Kwok]

Jimbob:

The TNG Mod is not intended to be used in conjuction or compatible with any other mod. I don't think this will change in the future either.

There will still be plenty of common techs that will be remain very much useful to all races.

[jimbob]

Sir Kwok,

Awww, that would be too bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . I guess I just assumed that ST would be merged with the Sci-Fi Cross Over...I personally think the X-over mod would realize only the shadow of it's potential without ST:TNG races and ships. The thought of a Romulan Bird of Prey decloaking off the starboard bow of a Minbari cruiser, or a Dominion fighter chasing down a tie fighter is ... well, I was really looking forward to it! Finally the answer to the eternal question, can the Enterprise (Galaxy Class) take on a Star Destroyer with it's full complement of fighters.

It is still my hope that it will be possible to merge them one day. The technologies in this mod are divergent/unique, and would make for interesting variations in the Sci-Fi Cross Over.

Cheers,

[Captain Kwok]

The TNG Mod is/has a unique tech tree, numbering/picture system, cultural traits and things of that nature that do not follow any systems established by the Sci-Fi Mod. It is intended to be a stand-alone Mod.

Once the TNG Mod is complete - the makers of the Sci-Fi crossover mod are welcome to use parts of the TNG Mod and convert them for use in their Mod. However, I do not have the time to do that so it will be up to someone else.

[Suicide Junkie]

Argh. My post got eaten by the Microsoft demons.
It was a biggie, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

To summarize,

Tesco: Seems our ideas are totally different. I've replied with mine, hopefully it will be understandable. See what you think.

Minor question:
in the Email, you replaced the cloaking type "temporal" with "subspace". Is that possible and does it work in SE4?

Major Questions for this Discussion thread:

1) Should the Feds get cloaking tech?
- All that was stopping them in the show was morals & a treaty. There may have been covert work going on by section 31.
- If we want the mod to stick to the shows, the player may need to be forcefully encouraged to not use cloaking by not having the tech available.

2) Do all the cloaking devices have to have the same abilities?

I have some ideas for cloaking which will have some side effects on the AI's use of the components, but I believe they will be minor, and that they will improve multiplayer a lot.

[TerranC]

1) Should the Feds get cloaking tech?

Section 31 couldn't have, wouldn't have, shouldn't have a cloaking device in their posession.

*If they do, please give me a whack, as I didn't catch most of DS9 until the war started.*

The U.S.S. Pegasus did have a phase cloak, and it was a testbed for technologies to be used in the Galaxy Class ships, and the original U.S.S. Enterprise captured a romulan cloaking device, so yes, they should have cloak.

It should up to the player whether to use it or not to use it.

2) Do all the cloaking devices have to have the same abilities?

All should defeat Active and Passive, if included in the Mod.

Gravimetric and Temporal should be able to detect cloaked ships and others with ease, but should be VERY EXPENSIVE to research.

[ June 25, 2002, 23:22: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Suicide Junkie]

All should defeat Active and Passive, if included in the Mod.

Gravimetric and Temporal should be able to detect cloaked ships and others with ease, but should be VERY EXPENSIVE to research.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note that we don't have to use the same categories as SE4 does. They could just as easily be "Generic", "Klingon", "Romulan", "Federation", and "Other". All you'd need to change is the descriptions.
Heck, you don't even need ability descriptions, and can just not add it to the point form ability list at all. Just describe the overall component as "Sees through cloaks, better at this or that, blah, blah, blah."

My idea for the cloaking involves races building up tech in generic scanners, and with the capture/analysis of a cloaking device, develop a scanner with strength in the appropriate non-generic scan type. ("Klingon", "Romulan", etc)
Thus, if one of your cloaked ships get captured, the rest of your ships with the same cloak might be compromised, and need a retrofit to a newer cloak.

[ June 26, 2002, 02:55: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Captain Kwok]

In regards to cloaking and sensors:

I believe that all races should be able to research cloaking to a certain degree. As it stands now, Klingons and Romulans would have access to a few additional levels of cloak.

After viewing some of SJ's suggestions - I'm not sure about a few items. First of all, I don't believe that cloak-detecting sensors should require cloak technology. For example, several races (Feds/Dominion) at times seem adept at detecting cloaks but themselves do not have the same level of technology to use them. Furthermore if all races were to have access to cloaking, this method could potentially result in many, many redundant entires in comps.txt which for the purpose of the lone feature of comprimising another races cloak tech may not be worth it.

I rather focus on creating a variety of different sensors that can detect cloaks at varying levels instead.

However, I would like to implement SJ's cloaking ideas in some capacity. I was thinking the advanced Klingon/Romulan cloaks would require different types of sensors needed to detect them would be tied into cloak technology at some point.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ:

Send me a couple examples of your cloak and scanner and I'll look over this evening. I'll drop by the chat around 5:30 EST today when I get home from work.

[jimbob]

First of all, I don't believe that cloak-detecting sensors should require cloak technology. For example, several races (Feds/Dominion) at times seem adept at detecting cloaks but themselves do not have the same level of technology to use them<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It seems to me that the Feds sensors were huge sensor arrays... and that their ability to detect cloaked ships was not founded in their ability to do the cloaking illusion, but that it was in their ability to construct giant sensitive arrays that could detect minor imperfections in their enemy's cloaking devices.

Though this may have been suggested a million times already, what about making separate tech branchs for detection versus cloaking. I'd suggest making the detection devices really large (~450 kT), and allow them to be placed on bases only (versus on ships which could potentially result in large sensor arrays flying around the universe, engaging in combat... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Hope this is of use.

[tesco samoa]

SJ I replied to your email... with my reasons....

[Captain Kwok]

Though this may have been suggested a million times already, what about making separate tech branchs for detection versus cloaking. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is how it is currently and I would like to keep that way. I do like the much larger sizes needed for the detection sensors but not quite that big...maybe around 100kT-150kT.

I made a mini update to the tech list at the TNG Mod site, it has some weapons added plus a few of the ideas I've recieved in the Last week.

I'm planning on adding some temporal tech that is not race specific as well for the next list update.

[jimbob]

Nice,

Glad you're on the same page and two (a hundred?) steps ahead of me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I like the 'base only' thing, I guess they don't have to be super massive now do they...

Edit-I just checked your web page, very nice. Should have done so a while back, would have answered a lot of my questions.

[ June 27, 2002, 01:41: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Captain Kwok]

Thanks for the input Jimbob.

One thing I would like to know...how do I get my SE4 links to open up in a new window rather than my base frame?

[Krsqk]

One thing I would like to know...how do I get my SE4 links to open up in a new window rather than my base frame?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right-click on the link, and select "Open in New Window"-- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I always read the forum like this.

Seen on a web page--"The smart surfer always clicks twice."

[Suicide Junkie]

After viewing some of SJ's suggestions - I'm not sure about a few items. First of all, I don't believe that cloak-detecting sensors should require cloak technology. For example, several races (Feds/Dominion) at times seem adept at detecting cloaks but themselves do not have the same level of technology to use them. Furthermore if all races were to have access to cloaking, this method could potentially result in many, many redundant entires in comps.txt which for the purpose of the lone feature of comprimising another races cloak tech may not be worth it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The basic anti-cloak sensors go up in tech level just as in normal SE4.
If you capture a Cloak, you get a BONUS to detection against that one race's cloaks.
If you have developed that cloak type yourself, you also get a bonus to detection against (your own) race's cloaks.

Basically, if you have captured some examples of the romulan cloaking device, you will know which imperfections to look for, as jimbob said.

You will have two options:
The brute force, check everything plus the kitchen sink, way, or
The finesse way, by checking for that 534,745 Hz vitural particle harmonic in the Romulan cloaks made before 2410.5

What you get is a sensor that you've researched normally, but has a special feature of defeating Romulan cloaks +1 level higher than normal.

Furthermore if all races were to have access to cloaking, this method could potentially result in many, many redundant entires in comps.txt which for the purpose of the lone feature of comprimising another races cloak tech may not be worth it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, we have at least 64,000 components to work with, so I don't think space will be a problem. And I'm willing to write a little program to generate the extra components, so its not going to be an unbearable amount of work for me either.

[Captain Kwok]

No, I know how to open a new window for explorer...duh

I was wondering how do I get my website to launch links in a new window...i.e...what html code do I use to do that?

[ June 28, 2002, 01:17: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

I just watched the trailer for Star Trek: Nemesis and it looks really good and really exciting.

Star Trek: Nemesis Website (http://nemesis.startrek.com)

I've seen a few items that I might incorporate into the Mod as well.

In regards to cloaking...I think what will happen first is that cloaks will be availible for all races to research. Early cloaks will be detected by less advanced and smaller scanners while later cloaks can only be detected by larger more advanced sensors. The Klingons and Romulans will have extra cloak levels that will require more specialized sensors to detect them. The exact names of the sensors haven't been decided, perhaps a few people can make suggestions...of course more ideas are welcome.

[ June 28, 2002, 02:18: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Do you like the idea of capturing a cloak giving you a bonus to detect against that race?

[Captain Kwok]

I would like to implement your idea for the advanced Klingon and Romulan cloaks. The two cloaks would be different (one active, one passive) and require either Active or passive Tachyon sensors to be detected which could be obtained through normal research or by capturing Klingon/Romulan ships and analysing them.

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't recall saying anything about advanced cloaking. I've just been thinking from the anti-cloak sensor side of things.

Capture bonus for scanners and a huge number of cloaking tech levels (for everybody who uses cloaks) is what I'm rooting for.

[Captain Kwok]

No SJ - I would like to implement your idea for only the advanced Klingon and Romulan cloaks and leave the other cloaks normal...consider it an adaptation.

[ June 29, 2002, 06:57: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Suicide Junkie]

But, that has basically nothing to do with my idea.

A variation on my idea might be "if we steal a Romulan cloak lets make the sensor for that level of romulan cloak cheaper/smaller/better"

[Captain Kwok]

Huh? Your basic idea was to have a custom cloaking device for a race that yields the corresponding sensors to uncover it when capture and analyzed by the other player, right?

[Suicide Junkie]

OH! Parse Error on my part I guess.
I thought you were implying that my idea was for the klingons & romulans to have more levels.

I see now.
Just to check; the cloaks will be defeatable by lots of levelups in sensors & computers too?
Or, maybe just by a normal tech that gives a component 25 times larger than the captured Version?

[Captain Kwok]

As it stands now:

Cloaking Device I-V &gt; Availible to all races and can be defeated by Gravitic Sensors I-V.

Cloaking Device VI-X &gt; Availible to all races and can be defeated by Neutron Radiation Scanners I-V.

However, the Romulans and Klingons will have their own cloaks for level VI-X. Romulans have a passive cloak and Klingons have an active cloak. Require either Active or Passive tachyon sensors to be defeated. Capturing either device can result in more efficient (ie reduced size) scanners.

[Captain Kwok]

Well, it's been a few days since I have posted, so I thought I'd give a little update of what's going on.

I've done most of the generic comps and have begun work on adding weapon related items. The weather has been nice and hot for the Last few days so I decided to get some sun before my winter hibernation so I wasn't able to do as much as I had anticipated.

Look for some sort of update to the site later this week or early next week.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I've made a minor update to the website including updating the TNG Mod Tech list with the most updated listing of comps and facilities to be included in the Mod. I've also added a list of basic ships (for most races) that will be in the game. To find the tech list, use the link in my signature and hit the Treknology button and then the link to see the Current Tech list.

Feel free to continue posting ideas or suggestions here...there's still plenty of room to add new items!

[ July 06, 2002, 01:51: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[TerranC]

Just minor things you can choose to ignore Captn Kwok...

Feddie:

Sensor Pod = Sensor Array
Nano-Virus = Nanites
Phasers 1-10 = 1-12 Since this is TNG, and Ent-E is kinda connected to TNG, and the Ent E have level 12; if you believe the writers

Kling-Offs:

LARGE distruptor/Linear Distruptor/Beam Distruptor (The ones on Negh'Var on DS9)
There's a Kor Class?

Snakeheads:

Try borrowing some Dominion Wars/Armada Ships to make up for the lack of Cardassian Ships.

Grand Lobes of Money:

I think that there should be some kind of facility for the Grand Nagus, since he plays a vital, if not godlike, role in Ferengi Society.

Misc:

The Antimatter pods, IMHO, should be Deuterium Tanks, as while There are not much Antimatter on a ship, there are tons of Deuterium Tanks.

Example in point: Galaxy Class

[Ed Kolis]

Just wanted to say - I can't wait till this mod is finally released! It really looks like you guys are putting a lot of thought into it. Even though I don't like Star Trek anymore I'd *love* to play a game with Star Trek ships - anyone remember Begin2? That was a *great* tactical combat simulator - too bad you couldn't make your own ships! (I know there's Starfleet Command but for some reason the real-time aspect kind of irked me, and there weren't enough standalone missions... I'm not much for campaign-oriented games.)

Need any help with anything? (Might I suggest resizing the ships to Star Trek levels - in other words, a battlecruiser is ~150 kT instead of 600? I know it would require resizing all the components but since you're going to be redoing all of them anyway...)

[Captain Kwok]

TerranC:

Strange you should mention about the phasers going up to level 12 - I never really thought about it in that way, but it makes sense given the tech manual specs.

Starships have both deuterium pods (for impulse power) and anti-matter pods to store, well, anti-matter. I choose anti-matter pods since they would provide more emergency supplies. However, I could add deuterium tanks as another cheaper source of supplies.

The Klingon's Ion Cannon I-III is essentially a powerful beam akin to the large beam weapon on big Klingon ships.

The question marks in the basic ships lists for some races are just placemarks for names when I get some or make it up. I'll take a look at some of the Trek games to pick up some additional names.

Good Luck on the move to Montreal!

Ed Kolis:

The hull sizes are fine. There's no really need to change it up and waste more time trying to balance everything else.

Thanks for the suggestions and feel free to add more at anytime.

[Ed Kolis]

Oh well... I thought it would add to the "feel" to have realistic ship sizes...

Maybe someday I'll do a MOO mod where I try to make everything as MOO-like as possible... naah, I already have a mod to work on, all my ideas will go in there! ;-)

[Captain Kwok]

Sure having the ship sizes more realistic would be nice...but then you have to adjust the all the component sizes, costs, structures, weapon damage, supplies, etc... and there is already more than enough to do. With the current sizes, at least I know what values work well and it just makes life easier. If the difference was more dramatic like five times or more, than sure, but it's not.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I have made a minor update to the site adjusting some descriptions and the tech list. With the help of Fyron, I have also made the site more friendly to view at different resolutions.

Once the Mod is released, the site will begin to feature more specific race and ship details and perhaps a fictional component based on an actual game universe. However, I don't want to get too ahead of myself, so I'm going to stick to the Mod only for now.

I've recieved an inquiry or two on the cloaking system, here is the general form:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cloaking Device I-V (Gravitic cloak 1-5) availible to all races and can be detected by Thermal Scanners I-V (Gravitic scanning 1-5).
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cloaking Device VI-X (Passive 1-5 & Active 1-5) availible to all races and can be detected by Neutron Radiation Scanners (Passive 1-5) or by Subspace Scanners (Active 1-5). Each sensor will have an advantage/disadvantage here.
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Finally, the Klingons and Romulans have another option than Cloaking Device VI-X. They have the Klingon Cloaking Device (Active 6-10) or Romulan Cloaking Device (Passive 6-10) which can be defeated by the expensive and large Active Tachyon Sensors (Active 6-10) or Passive Tachyon Sensors (Passive 6-10). However, capturing one of these devices and analyzing it gives the opportunity to research more compact and efficient Versions of the sensors.
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, there will be a subspace listening post facility that is connecting to subspace scanning that detects cloaked ships and a few intel points from those eavesdropping sessions.
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's all for now.

[tesco samoa]

kwok i have sent you the system name file.

There are 4000 systems... if you want more let me know.

[Captain Kwok]

Tesco:

Thanks! Do the 4000 names include many from the Trek universe (which is what I'm looking for mostly)?

[ July 11, 2002, 05:03: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I've updated the TNG website with some new additional race tidbits and a planet/system description in Treknology.

I'm also looking for specific comments in regards to techs listed on the current tech list.

I've also made Shuttle Bays to launch/recover fighters, shuttles, and drones. Cargo bays can launch probes (small satellites with recon functions) or single Orbital Platforms - which have replaced the role of SE:IV satellites.

Thanks to all who submitted ship and system names...more are still welcomed!

That's all for now.

[dominion]

This mod seems to be a total conVersion from what I've seen. Here's some interesting info about Star Trek races (http://www.st-intelligence.com/begin.html) and at Section 31.

Oh, here's a site with an image of the Borg's transwarp coil (http://www.grms.fsnet.co.uk/transwarp_coil.htm).

[ July 14, 2002, 04:48: Message edited by: dominion ]

[Captain Kwok]

Ugh!

My topic has fallen to the second page! That's okay...plan on doing some modding and updating the website today and tomorrow.

The latest history files (1.74 & 1.75) bring some more interesting damage types, mounts, and finally correctly fixes emissive armor. This will certainly open up some additional ideas for the Mod.

One item that I'm looking to rearrange is ship sizes. I'm thinking of scrapping the original sizes and making each race have a handful of custom sized ships. For example, there'd be a number of different hulls for the different Federation classes...sometimes requiring different technologies before they can be built. It also opens up the possibility to have classes of ships introduce through time. Early Federation ships could include the Constitution class refit and later be replaced by a more updated class like the Excelsior. Stuff to think about, eh?

Again, thanks to everyone who have sent files or ideas and suggestions.

That's all for now.

[jimbob]

I guess the only thing to be cautious about is that once a ship size is available, it will never go away. But as long as the number of ship classes stays relatively small it shouldn't matter too much.

Good work as always.

[Tnarg]

So are you by any chance including a quadrant map in your mod that resembles the Star Trek Galaxy? If not I'd like to try and help. I have a whole slew of data on this topic.

[Atrocities]

CK, your going to burn out if your not careful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Captain Kwok]

JimBob:

Remember, there are no carriers and such, so a few extra ship hulls won't add much. Also, the TNG Mod is striving to keep a balance between all ship sizes throughout the game. So all sizes should remain useful.

Once the first Version of the Mod is released, I'm hoping to have a map similiar to the Star Trek universe. There are a few good websites out there with excellent maps for me to follow.

Extra additions to the stellar and quadrant ability types will add more variety to your average star system. Particular kinds of planets will tend to be in the same regions around the stars and they'll be a lot more moons.

[Captain Kwok]

*** Incoming Message - StarFleet Command ***

Greetings!

I've updated the TNG site with a few tidbits of information in the Treknology section. Also note the changes to ship hulls as mentioned a few Posts below.

Take a look around, link is in my signature.

Captain Kwok

*** End of Message - StarFleet Command ***

[jimbob]

As always, very nice web page.

Hey I read this over on your page
...component to be damaged. Emissive armors (now fixed) will also appear, usually as race specific armor. Shields have been...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How'd you fix the emissive armors? How do they work now? (sorry if you've already mentioned this, but I was too lazy to go through 15 pages to check http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

I really like the multi-level cloaks and the 'leaky' sheilds.

Cheers

[Captain Kwok]

JimBob:

MM has finally fixed emissive armor so it works the same as it did in SE:III. If the damage is less than the emissive ability then no damage is done. If it's greater than the emissive ability than the damage done is the strength of the hit minus the emissive rating.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
JimBob:

MM has finally fixed emissive armor so it works the same as it did in SE:III. If the damage is less than the emissive ability then no damage is done. If it's greater than the emissive ability than the damage done is the strength of the hit minus the emissive rating.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He did ?? When ?? In what patch ?? It is stiil old all or nothing in Gold, unless I'm missing something.

[Captain Kwok]

It's been fixed (and tested) in Version 1.75 which should be coming out soon!

Latest History Thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006280)

It's one of a handful of great modding features being released in the next patch!

[oleg]

Hurrah !

It will certainly change weapons balance and stimulate some new ship designs !

The only negative aspect, IMHO, is a further skewing toward bigger ships with bigger mounts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Captain Kwok]

The only negative aspect, IMHO, is a further skewing toward bigger ships with bigger mounts. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily true. You can always use the "One per" to "Ten per" ship commands to limit the amount of emissive armor a ship can have.

Woops!

Except you're talking about the increased firepower of the bigger ships to the small ones and how it could overpower the emissive armor easier. Well, you can also make it so the mounts reflect a better firepower to kT ratio between all sizes.

[ July 21, 2002, 02:34: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[oleg]

Yes, I was referring to even bigger damage/kt bonus to large mounts due to the fixed emissive armor.
May be we should adjust mounts a little bit now ?

[Fyron]

Instead of mounts making weapons larger and increasing damage, why not make the weapon smaller and do the same damage? It would get the same effect, but not screw up Emmissive Armor.

[Captain Kwok]

Of course the Last couple of Posts don't really have to do with the TNG Mod...it's rigged so that ships of all sizes are going to be quite useful through the game either strategically or economically.

[Ed Kolis]

Just thought I'd point out that repeatedly on your website you are misspelling the word "tactical"...

[Suicide Junkie]

If you take a weapon, and double both size and damage, the weapon becomes more powerful: it pierces shields better.
If you make it half size and half damage, shields will absorb a larger fraction of the damage.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I've updated the TNG website before I go on holidays, so stop by. Please take a look at the current tech list and let me know what you think as it should be more or less everything included in the first release.

I look forward to working on the Mod more often when I get back...see you in a week or so!

The link to the site is in my signature!

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I'm back from my short holiday and have resumed working on the Mod when I can. I sent out a basic component file to those on my little mailing list, so I look forward to hearing some feedback.

I also find myself getting a little weary or avoiding this project, does anyone have some suggestions or ideas to help rejuvenate my efforts to get this thing done...?

[Atrocities]

Your work is very important to everyone here. You are without a doubt, working on one of the most anticipated mods to date. Your work and dedication is greatly appreciated by all.

I would concentrate on the data stuff, and leave the ship sets for later. Get the actual mod data done first then work on the sets.

The important stuff are the components, then the AI for the players. Everything else can be done later.

The mod does not have to be done tomorrow, take your time on it. Enjoy what you are doing. Hell if I had the knowledge, I would be happy to work on it for you. But me dumb. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[jimbob]

I don't have any original ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but I'd agree with Atrocities whole heartedly. Your mod will be great, and I'm looking forward to playing it with/against some of my nerdy (me included) friends when it's ready. And true, while it would be great for the project to be done yesterday, this is more your hobby... so take your time and make it what you'd like it to be!

Cheers,
And where exactly did you go for your holiday?

[Elowan]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Greetings!

I also find myself getting a little weary or avoiding this project, does anyone have some suggestions or ideas to help rejuvenate my efforts to get this thing done...?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whilst everyone is anticipating the release of your mod - take a leaf from Stephen King's 'Advice for Writers'. Work at your own pace, don't let others dictate you work ethos.

Whilst self-discipline is a must in creative endeavors - there's no point flogging a dead horse. My answer to creative block is to do something entirely different for awhile. It's amazing how this gets the creative juices flowing.

From the looks of your site - you have undertaken (and executed) a tremendous amount of planning and attention to detail. Don't lose that edge.

'Act in haste - repent in leisure'.

[Magnum357]

Hey guys, this is off topic but incase any of you are modelers like me, here is a site by a guy who makes custom made models for Star Trek and Starfleet Battles. Here is the linke if you are interested...

http://www.mcdanielmodels.com/

[jimbob]

I also find myself getting a little weary or avoiding this project, does anyone have some suggestions or ideas to help rejuvenate my efforts to get this thing done...?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, I have an idea for a ST:NG racial trait. I haven't had time enough to make the component(s) yet, but if you like the idea, I'll put it together tonight or tomorrow...

Racial Trait: Drug Dependancy
Like the Dominion underlings... it would suck if your crew mutinied, or worse, were captured and forced to work for the other side, so logically you make them dependent on a drug for normal functioning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

- Racial Trait gives -50% to Attack and Defense.
- Ship/base component "drug synthesis lab" gives all ships in sector a +65% to Attack and Defense.
- If a ship is captured or rebels, it no longer has access to the drug (unless it is the drug manufacturing ship!!!) so the crew goes into withdraw.
- If another race captures your drug ship though, look out, their race isn't genetically dependant, but would benifit from all that narcotic boost.

I'd suggest making the drug synth labs large to limit them to support ships or bases. Because the race now is more 'immune' to the consequences of capture/mind control, and have a +15 to combat, my suggestion is to have it cost around 2000 Racial Points (or perhaps decrease the combat bonus to 55 or 60%).

I hope this helps with the modders block. Still looking forward to the finished product.
-Jimbob

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

I have been suffering through a few computer problems as of late and haven't really had much time to work on the Mod in the Last week or so. I'll try and update as soon as possible.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'m looking forward to your mod. Anyway, i'm not knowledgable in the area of modding but couldn't you start of your mod by taking ai from say the TDM mod? Maybe other parts could be taken from various mods and then tweaked. This would speed up development, no? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am afraid that he will not be able to do this. He is going to be using new components and facilities for his mod. In order to get the AI to use these new items, it must be customized to do so.

But rest assured, if there is a will, I am sure Captain K will figure it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed, it is better to have all components and technologies in place. Adapting TDM Ai will not be a problem after that. I can try to fix some AIs once mod is more or less will take shape.

[oleg]

My major concern with this mod is that little bastard will try to shut it down once he discovers that some ships are not for his liking.

[minipol]

Indeed, it is better to have all components and technologies in place. Adapting TDM Ai will not be a problem after that. I can try to fix some AIs once mod is more or less will take shape.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. OK, i just thought it was possible. Anyway, that's one hell of a job then.

[minipol]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Greetings.

I have been suffering through a few computer problems as of late and haven't really had much time to work on the Mod in the Last week or so. I'll try and update as soon as possible.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm looking forward to your mod. Anyway, i'm not knowledgable in the area of modding but couldn't you start of your mod by taking ai from say the TDM mod? Maybe other parts could be taken from various mods and then tweaked. This would speed up development, no?

[Atrocities]

'm looking forward to your mod. Anyway, i'm not knowledgable in the area of modding but couldn't you start of your mod by taking ai from say the TDM mod? Maybe other parts could be taken from various mods and then tweaked. This would speed up development, no? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am afraid that he will not be able to do this. He is going to be using new components and facilities for his mod. In order to get the AI to use these new items, it must be customized to do so.

But rest assured, if there is a will, I am sure Captain K will figure it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[dumbluck]

Racial Trait: Drug Dependancy
Like the Dominion underlings... it would suck if your crew mutinied, or worse, were captured and forced to work for the other side, so logically you make them dependent on a drug for normal functioning

- Racial Trait gives -50% to Attack and Defense.
- Ship/base component "drug synthesis lab" gives all ships in sector a +65% to Attack and Defense.
- If a ship is captured or rebels, it no longer has access to the drug (unless it is the drug manufacturing ship!!!) so the crew goes into withdraw.
- If another race captures your drug ship though, look out, their race isn't genetically dependant, but would benifit from all that narcotic boost.

I'd suggest making the drug synth labs large to limit them to support ships or bases. Because the race now is more 'immune' to the consequences of capture/mind control, and have a +15 to combat, my suggestion is to have it cost around 2000 Racial Points (or perhaps decrease the combat bonus to 55 or 60%).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A couple of things. If the crew rebels/ is captured, they will not go into withdrawl, they will stop being Dominion (or whatever) and start being Abbidon (or whomever their new empire is). That means that they will lose all of their old empire's traits and take on all of their new empire's traits (with the exception of atmosphere). So they would lose the to-hit penalty.

Also, I didn't see anything that granted immunity (even partial) from crew insurrection/(psy converter thingy I can't remember the name of).

Sorry to burst your bubble. (Unless, of coarse, I'm completely wrong about how the game works...)

[jimbob]

A couple of things. If the crew rebels/ is captured, they will not go into withdrawl, they will stop being Dominion (or whatever) and start being Abbidon (or whomever their new empire is). That means that they will lose all of their old empire's traits and take on all of their new empire's traits (with the exception of atmosphere). So they would lose the to-hit penalty.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hm. So you're right. While a frustration to my evil plans to intorduce the racial trait of Addiction, how about this... Give the racial trait access to a special subset of "druggy crew quarters" with the large penalty. Then restrict them from using the normal crew quarters (as per P&N normal, nomad and pirate traits). This way they must build ships with a drug dependent crew. Then give them the drug synth lab components as per my Last post.
Now when their ships are taken over the crew will remain drug dependent even though their racial traits have changed.
Alternatively you could give them a new set of ships and exclude them from using the normal shipset.

Aside: do they become "Abbidon" in terms of racial characteristics, or do they take on a neutral set of racial traits?

Also, I didn't see anything that granted immunity (even partial) from crew insurrection/(psy converter thingy I can't remember the name of).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True. I mis-spoke in my attempt to be metaphorical http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . It isn't so much that they would be immune to capture/insurrection, but that when they do fall prey to it, the captured ships will be seriously hobbled in combat because of the penalties for drug withdrawl. As such they won't pose as serious a threat to their parental race.

Now, would this work?

[Phoenix-D]

There is another problem unfortunately. Namely, that 65% attack defense mod will probably apply to the enemy as well..

Phoenix-D

[jimbob]

Right, right....

[jimbob]

Oh, but of course...

i) make the racial trait give 65% combat bonus
ii) the race only gets "addicted crew" components with the -50% combat bonus. This equals a total of +15%
iii) when the ship is captured it will revert to another race type (neutral or otherwise) and lose the 65% racial combat bonus, but suffer the -50% combat bonus due to withdrawl.

Now unfortunately we've lost the drug synthesis lab component http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

How about this (does anyone really want this thing besides me? cuz otherwise this is a little pedantic)...

i) racial trait gives 45% bonus to combat. So make it cost the same amount of Racial Points as if the player had bought 15 points of both space combat attack and defense.
ii) can build drug synth lab component (ship and/or base) for 15% bonus to combat. Make it a relatively large component that costs a fair bit of organics.
iii) "addicted crew" components give a -45% combat bonus.

So now the posibilities are as follows:

1) Parental Race owns ship, Drug Synth Lab in sector : the ship has +45% (race trait) +15% (drug synth lab) -45 (addicted crew) = +15

2) Parental Race owns ship, Saying No to Drugs : the ship has +45% (race trait) +0% (no drug synth lab) -45 (addicted crew) = Zero Combat Bonus. However, they paid a heck of a lot of Racial Points, and now have no bonus to combat = tragic consequences to combat capacity.

3) Race X captures ship, Race X has no Drug Synth Labs : -45 (addicted crew) = -45 Combat Bonus. If this ship survives combat, I'd suggest scrapping it for tech or resources.

4) Race X captures a Drug Synth Ship: +15% to all their ships in the sector ... so don't let this happen!! Put a Master Computer on the darned thing, keep it out of combat, do anything but let this fall into enemy hands! Immediately hunt it down and kill it/recapture it when/if one is captured...

Hopefully these scenarios are balanced.. with every strength there should be a weakness.

[ August 24, 2002, 00:49: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Magnum357]

Hey guys, I do have a question about this mode. I myself, was thinking about making a SFB type mode, but didn't have a lot of time Last year to proceed with the endevour. One thing I like about SFB compared to Star Trek was that the weapons where pretty balanced compared to one another.

Now I know this mode isn't really suppose to be based on SFB, but will this mode make weapons and such balanced compared to one another? I know that a higher tech level weapon for example should have more firepower/capabilities then the its predisesor &lt;sp&gt;, but I'm hoping weapon systems and such are pretty balanced.

Also, shouldn't Technologies of certain components increase in resources? I mean, shouldn't an early Phaser 1 for example be less expensive then say a latter type 10 Phaser or something? I'm not saying make the higher tech level technology vastly more expensive, just enough to give lower tech races a balanced feild (for example, a race may have less technology, but since their tech is somewhat cheaper then higher tech levels, this means the low tech player maybe able to produce more ships).

And what damage values are we giving too components in this? When I was creating my SFB mode, I remember reducing some of the damage outpouts of the weapons and reducing some of the damage resistance of components equivelent to SFB Ratings. I didn't complete the conVersion as it required extensive modification.

Just some questions I wanted to ask on this mode.

[ManOfWar]

Magnum, what ship styles, sets, races, were you planing on using? Original ones, exsisting ones, or other? Most of the Star Trek ships sets that are currently out are not SFB Cannon. I would not use them. However, I am not making this or any mod, so my opinion on the matter is mute.

[Magnum357]

Hey JimBob, I REALLY like your idea for Drug dependent races. A clever system for the Gem Hedar. But may I suggest a revision to the percentages?

How about changing the Percentages of Drug Sythn Lab and Racial trait both too +30%? I remember on Star Trek that once the Gem Hedar where in desperate need for "white drug" they had problems with combat, disipline, even the ability to phyiscally function was a problem. With both at +30%, a ship would operate at -15% (exactly 30 points opposite with a Drug Sythn Lab). You could reason that since their is no drug lab, crews would be severly hamppered and moral and disipline would be difficult to keep control. This would give Drug Races an "Archeles heel" you might say where striking synthn labs would be back breakers.

Just a suggestion.

[Magnum357]

To Manofwar,

Actually, what my plan was too use old SFB style ship pictures of as many SFB races I could get my hands on (Feds, Kling, ROM, Lyran, Hydan, Mirak/Kzinti, ISC, etc.). I was also planning to make the mode have aspects of TNG-DS9, like Cardassians, Dominion and Borg maybe. Although I would have to change things in TNG-DS9 stuff, I was going to make it a "What if SFB was played during TNG universe". It would have been basically a Star Trek universe under the SFB timeline.

Ships were going to be under a radical change. Instead of the system in place for SEIV, I was going to make it where "generations" of ships would be used. Early era ships would be those we see on SFB like the old Constitution class ship for a CA. SFB had ships called "X ships" which where basically advanced forms of ships before it. The Excelcior class ships where one of my favorite so I was thinking of using them as the "Second generation of the CA" or in SFB a "CX" crusier. The Galaxy Classes would be the basically would have been "CX2" Versions in the 24th century. One bold plan I was thinking about doing was learning how to use a 3D modeling system and basically create new SFB ships for the later eras. For example, since I loved the Excelcior class ships, I think it would have been neat if I could design a "CX" that had many features the Excelcior did in the movies yet retained some the design approches that the old CA class did (for example, bussard Ram scoops on nacels). Basically, I wanted to make later era designs look like they had elements of the previous generation, but added design concepts from the movies and TV shows of today. I thought about using Milkshape, but I have no knowlege on making ship graphics and I can't find milkshape (I heard its cheap to buy).

As for weapon systems, I was going to use the damage values used in SFB. I was even thinking about using Drones/Missiles soly used with the Drone units in SE4 (sure am glad MM put those in their finally). I would eliminate Cap Missles since they have no ammo limt and Drones do in SE4. Drone limits would be esential if your going to design an SFB mode with the Mirak and Klingons in SFB.

Cardassians and Dominion where going to be a bit tricky though since we don't know what their early designed ships looked like back during the 22nd and 23rd century looked like, it was going to be difficult to make pictures for them. Also, I'm still confused what to use the Cardies for weapons. Since all races in SFB use Phasers (guess they are kinda like the "Laser" in the SFB world, even the Andromadians use them), I plan to implement them for the Cardies. But what to use for heavy weapons? I've heard people say they use torpedos, yet I swear I have seen the Cardies on DS9 use Plasma Torps (especailly on Defense Satilites).

I was also going to make Phasers unique compared to otehr Star Trek modes. Phasers in SFB where basically made in 4 types... Type 1 Offensive, Type 2 Offense-Defensive, Type 3 Defensive, and Type 4 Heavy Phasers. Since Star Trek has a completely different naming convention for weapons, I was thinking about naming each type of Phasers with Letter instead of Numbers. For example, Type 1 Phasers where going to use the Designation of Letter "Class A Phaser". These would the best Phasers avialble for ships, and mostly the Feds would be the only ones available to use them. Type 2 Phasers where lettered as "Class B Phasers" because in the SFB game, these Phasers are cheaper and more efficent then Class A Phasers, but have less range and firepower, used widly buy other races like Klingons, Romulans, Lyrans, etc. that don't have huge budgets or good research labratories. Type 3 Phasers where going to be designated as "Class C Phasers", the least powerful of all the Phasers and short range. But their advantage would be very cheap and some Point Defense capability to them. All Phasers would have the ability to target Fighters and Drone/Missiles, but Class C Phasers would have the special ability for Point defense and a must for any ship going against seeking weapons. Type 4 Phasers would of course be classed as "Class D Phasers". I was having trouble trying to find as sytem too keep Class D Phasers from being able to be put on ships (they were not allowed in SFB) but I was thinking just making them very large weapon systems and hard to implement on a ship. Class G Phaser would off course be the Gatling Phasers (would have double the firepower of a Class C and able to fire twice a turn) and Class P Phasers would be the all famous Pulse Phasers used by the Defiant (A special Fed Design similar to the Class G phaser except a little more powerful and longer range). With the letter class system in place, this would allow me to add numbers to the Phaser types to indicate what tech level they are (example, a Class B1 Economy Phaser compared to a Class A2 Offensive Phaser). Also, Tech was going to follow a forumla where you could only sqeeze so much juice out of it. For example, today guns are more powerful then they were a Hundred or two hundread years ago. We might be able to make them a little more powerful, but its likely this could be the limit to how powerful we can make an Cartrige round today. Next genertion of guns would use a different physics for shooting projectiles (like mass driver weapons). My mode would show the same thing, Phasers would reach a certain point of firepower but it wouldn't make much sense to keep researching it because you would hardly get any more firepower out of it. you would be forced to find new technologies in order to find a weapon more powerful then Phasers yet have similar functions with Phasers.

Just some ideas I had in my head when I was trying to design this massive project. I might still do it, but I would prefer to know how to make 3D images because I would like to make my own ship pictures for it.

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings.

It has been a hectic couple of weeks for me with work and trying to overcome a few computer problems - so I haven't been doing much in regards to the TNG Mod. I look forward to getting back to it though with the new modding possibilities from patch 1.78.

Magnum357 - just to avoid confusion - perhaps you can open a new thread describing your Mod ideas just so it doesn't mixed up with the TNG Mod.

Thanks!

[jimbob]

Magnum357: Well thanks. I hope that this would be a usable sub-mod. I've since seen the idea of drug enhancement/dependency races in ST:DS9, FarScape, and I think Andromeda (which I'm quite ashamed to admit that I watch on the occassional slow Saturday afternoon), so maybe this is becoming a standard Sci-Fi motif (Ronny Regan should be turning in his grave now - er, did he die yet?)

How about changing the Percentages of Drug Sythn Lab and Racial trait both too +30%? I remember on Star Trek that once the Gem Hedar where in desperate need for "white drug" they had problems with combat, disipline, even the ability to phyiscally function was a problem.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought that the racial trait and drug lab bonuses should be symetrical at first too (both +30% for example). However, if the drug synth lab bonus is too big, then it will help "non-GemHedar" ships far too much in case of captures (either way I might add). So, I wanted to make the Racial bonus bigger because it doesn't transfer upon capture.

With both at +30%, a ship would operate at -15% (exactly 30 points opposite with a Drug Sythn Lab).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but I missed what your negative modifier would come from (a required component like what I had suggestd?), and how much of a penalty it would levy against the crew (your math suggests -75%)

Regardless, I'd love any ideas and/or help in making this become a reality in a full blown mod somewhere (why have it for just my 'in-house' mods... it's not like the AI would know what to do with it anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[ August 26, 2002, 16:10: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Magnum357]

To Captain Kwok,

Sorry for making such a long message about my mode ideas. I was actually just trying to explain to ManofWar my project, not too suggest anything to your Mode. I suppose I could use my own message thread for my discussions on an SFB mode, but to be honest, I'm not sure if their are many SE4 fans even interested in an SFB mode. I will consider it.

P.S. I love you 3D ships models you have made so far. What 3D program did you use to make them anyway?

[Captain Kwok]

I used Moray/Pov-Ray to make the models. However, I have since learned some new techniques to help improve them when I get some time to do so!

[minipol]

i'm looking forward to this mod. however, a have dumb question so don't nuke me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif why aren't the vulcans included? i think it would be fun to have them together with the romulans.

[Captain Kwok]

The Vulcans are not included as they are part of the Federation.

[minipol]

ha, that explains it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Brennan]

I've been reading this thread for about a month now and just wanted to say two things:

1) I am really looking foward to the inital release for this mod. Keep up the good work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I know the creator is having some time/modivational issues but does anyone have any idea when that release might be?

2) Are neutrals going to be included into the mod? Obviously neutrals would be important to the Federation player, but it is also one of the main features of Star Trek. Neutrals play a huge part in the show.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Brennan:
Neutrals play a huge part in the show.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AOTW (Aliens of the week) don't count http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Greetings!

I am actually working on updating the site today and will upload it sometime today!

There are a few neutral races to be included such as the Bajorans and Nausicians. Federation members such as the Vulcans, Trill, Betazoids, etc..., will not be.

[The Canuck]

hey Cpt, i have some friends that have highpoly models of all the TNG/DS9 era ships and a few non-canon ones as well. if u want i could ask them to take some screenshot of them to help out with the ships sets so u can concentrate on the actually imporant work like makin the AI and finishing the tech tree and so on. so what do ya say?

[jimbob]

Is it just me, or are the members of this forum disproportionately Canadian?

[Timstone]

Nope, not all are Canadian. I'm Dutch.

[Suicide Junkie]

But there are a lot of us Canadians here.

[Captain Kwok]

Hello again.

I've updated the site with a couple of changes to the tech list. That's about it for now.

[Magnum357]

hey Captian,

I like the updates you have done for your TNG mode. Sad thing for me was that when I was making my mode, I was planning to make similar things in my SFB mode (like for example Sheilds with lower Strength but the ability for Sheild Regeneration). Great ideas on your update, I just hope you don't think I will be copying your ideas if they happen to be similar.

[Captain Kwok]

At first, I had the shield generators use the "shields from damage" ability to create the leaky shield effect. It worked fine, but I felt that using the "shield regeneration" ability in the same role worked better. It fits better with the concept that the shield meter during combat represents the strength (0-100%) of the shields and that they would recharge at an steady rate rather than a rate based on the amount of damage deflected from a hit.

[Suicide Junkie]

What?!?

The shields from damage ability makes them absorb up to 50%. Less than 50% if the weapon is especially powerful.

Don't make that kind of change just to make the tactical combat shield meter more accurate!

"they would recharge at an steady rate rather than a rate based on the amount of damage deflected from a hit."
They don't! The CA effect shields simply deflect 50%, and weaken as the generators take damage.

[Captain Kwok]

SJ:

I knew you would cry about it!

It's essentially the same effect using either method. The major difference is that the shields will regenerate regardless of damage inflicted using the "shield regeneration" ability and I think that is more preferable to the player.

[Suicide Junkie]

No... It's a completely different system.

Total hitpoints in the regenerators system depends only on your shield generator tech.
Total hitpoints in the CA effect system depend on the shield abilities, plus how well you've armored your shield generators.

The regenerator system will also lack most of the partial shield-skipping damage effect.

PS: There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have a bit of standard SE4 regeneration in the shield generators: if a ship has a chance to get out of range for a few minutes, they can easily restore shield strength.
(Assuming there wasn't too much physical damage to the generators)

[ September 08, 2002, 14:38: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[ZeroAdunn]

Keep the shields from damage effect. Please!

See here is what will happen if you don't: First hit, shields gone (follow me here) second hit, full damage to ship, full damage to ship, etc...

With leaky shields: First hit: shields gone damage to ship shields go back up, second hit: shields gone damage to ship shields go back up, etc

See totally different.

[Ed Kolis]

Just wondering...

Suppose the Federation has Sovereign class Dreadnoughts (TL 8 of Ship Construction, right?), and the Romulans steal level 8 Ship Construction. The Romulans WILL get D'deridex class Warbirds, right? In other words, the Warbirds will require Ship Construction 8 and Romulan Technology 1, not some specific tech like Romulan Ship Construction 8. Right??? (It does seem logical... analyze an enemy ship that is larger than ships you can build and you get to build a larger ship... just like in standard SE4... the only possible exception I could see is the Borg, since they have HUGE ships... perhaps analyzing Borg ships should give some other bonus...)

[Captain Kwok]

Fine!

I spent some time today testing both the shield effects and...I decided that I ended up liking the shield from damage method better...more or less for the same reason that ZeroAdunn mentioned a couple of Posts back. I had never really thought about it that way until I was playing around with it and it hit me what the big difference was.

Ed Kolis:

Each race will have their own unique ship construction tree. In addition, higher levels of research won't always mean bigger ships. Sometimes it will result in more powerful smaller ships like the Defiant.

[Magnum357]

Hey Captian,

Personally, I did not mind at all of your idea for "leaky Sheilds" where they would regenerate. I don't know why the person below disagrees with the concept.

Also, neat idea for Tech Specific ships in Racial Traits. I had no idea you could assign Specific Ship types to Racial traits. Am I correct that is what you are planning to do?

[Captain Kwok]

Magnum:

The big difference is that the ship's shields will regenerate after each hit as oppossed to after each combat turn...that difference could mean life or death for the ship. I had never considered that until I was messing around with it yesterday.

The ships are going to be race specific and some might require more than "ship construction".

[Magnum357]

I see. One more question I do have about this. So for example, it sounds like you are going to have a Racial Tech Trait for producing Defiant Class Starships right? So are you going to make it where you can only put Pulse Phasers on the Defiant and can't put it on another ship? Is this possible now with the latest patch? I haven't looked over the new files for the latest patch.

Am I right about this or am I completely off?

[ZeroAdunn]

So, how is the mod coming? I really need to get back to work on the Cardassians sometime and wanted to know when you planned to release.

[Captain Kwok]

Correct.

Mounts can now be restricted to specific techs/families.

[Magnum357]

Hey Captain, got another question.

I've been looking over your site now and I'm curious about Tactical/Strategic combat. I remember talking to Suicide Junkie before about discussions on a Star Trek mode about this subject. What exactly type of movement system will Ships use? Suicide Junkie has his interesting "Semi-Newtonian" propulsion system, yet it seems the Star Trek's way of moving is space doesn't seem to fit this profile very well.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems bigger ships with larger Warp Coils, seem to have greater Warp Velocity (and longer range) then smaller vessels. yet at Impulse Speeds, Larger ships etheir have equal or less velocity movement too smaller vessels. I think Star Treks Movement system has to be different then what we are use to in other SiFi shows.

I think ships use a system of movement similar to what we see in the old Starfire game made by Task Force games. In that game, ships with bigger size moved slower then ships will lower mass. In Starfire, vessels were capable of reaching velocities at the limit of 10% of the speed of light. In space, the normal law of physics have "and object in motion stays in motion", while in the Starfire game system, ships that loose their engies immediatly slow down to near 0 velocity speeds (well, I suppose maybe moving at 10 Km a second or something). How this worked was that the engines on a ship in Starfire did more then propel the vessel, they also powered a Magnetic feild that sounds the ship that helps reduce the mass of the ship to lower levels. With the combination of internal IDF (Internal Dapening Feilds) and a lower combined mass, the ship can use its sublight engines to propel the vessel at hi speeds and sudden change of directions without the chance of squishing the vessel. Once the engines where destroyed, the ship would slow to normal velocites we see with craft now (like the space shuttle).

Couldn't it be possible that in Star Trek that we see the same thing with vessels? Maybe the Warp Engines do more then just warp to other star systems but also help create a warp feild at sublight speeds that allow the Impulse Engines and Manuevering Thrusters to perform high-G maneuvers in space.

If this is true, I guess the question is at Impulse Speeds, is a Galaxy Class starship slower then a Defiant Class ship or is it about the same?

I'm just curious if you have thought about this. I have been thinking of a system similar to this myself for my own mode.

[Captain Kwok]

I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems bigger ships with larger Warp Coils, seem to have greater Warp Velocity (and longer range) then smaller vessels. yet at Impulse Speeds, Larger ships etheir have equal or less velocity movement too smaller vessels. I think Star Treks Movement system has to be different then what we are use to in other SiFi shows. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Star Trek, ship size doesn't necessarily count towards warp speed, ie Voyager vs. Enterprise-D. At impulse, Trek ships move about the same speed except the smaller ships can maneuver a whole lot better. The defense bonuses for smaller hulls in SE:IV can be attributed to that fact.

In the Mod, since you can't have ships warping around like the series, I had larger ships require more "engine coils" to generate the same amount of movement as a smaller ship. This system has a good effect as each ship will have a similiar percentage of space dedicated to propulsion which helps to increase the effectiveness of all ships through the entire game.

When the engines are all destroyed...that's it...no movement unless you have another form of propulsion like emergency thrusters.

[Magnum357]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
[QUOTE] This system has a good effect as each ship will have a similiar percentage of space dedicated to propulsion which helps to increase the effectiveness of all ships through the entire game.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I guess that is an okay system, But can I make a suggestion? Could you at least make the modifiers pretty hefty for smaller ships? If you just give small Escorts/Frigates light Defense Modifiers, I can't really see them being a very effective ship for a fleet because they wouldn't surive long at all.

[Timstone]

Yo Captaino, how's the mod doing?

[Brennan]

Yes I would love an update. Do you think you will have a Version out by October? I know we are all looking foward to you mod!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[gregebowman]

Ditto on that!!

[ZeroAdunn]

I think you should tell them Kwok