Artillery WAAAY too cheap!

Mustang · #1 January 23rd, 2006, 11:34 AM

I'm playing a PBEM game with a guy as the Russians. I went to the purchase screen and look for some rocket artillery. I sawBM-21s for 150 pts., BM-27s for 250 pts.! I bought six battallions of artillery to support my two battallions of infantry! Six artillery batallions- don't you need to bump up the price?

Also, off topic, what does IIRC mean? I see people write it sometimes.

thatguy96 · #2 January 23rd, 2006, 12:27 PM

If I Remember Correctly, rocket artillery is some of the most inaccurate and while it supresses the hell out of anything you point it at, destroying anything but the land is practically a coin flip. Its been my experience that using unguided HE rockets can be fun to watch, but not something I want to do if my men are within 5 hexes of the impact zone or on a specific target (like counter battery fire, uprooting a specific entrenched unit etc). I think you'll notice that as the systems accuracy goes up the cost goes up dramatically.

The BM-21 Pl costs 161 in the Russian OOB while in the USA OOB an MLRS Section (also having the benefits of cluster munitions) is 509. Both the BM-21's 122mm Rocket (LR in this case for off-map) and the MLRS's 223mm CM-Rocket have accuracy one, but in the case of the 223mm rocket you've got an over 40 point increase in the HEK value. To put the accuracy thing in perspective, even an 82mm mortar has an accuracy level of 3, and the 152mm howitzer used on the Russia's SPA is almost 10. Its a trade off, put the rounds where you want or just chuck 3-5x as many rounds in the general direction.

Mobhack · #3 January 23rd, 2006, 03:06 PM

Accuracy has nil effect on indirect fire, only affects direct fire.

Rocket Arty is reasonably cheap (if you exclude minelets and bomblets) due to the limited number of rounds. A rocket unit will get one or 2 rounds of fire, and then if off map at least, cannot reload.

Rocket arty also has a larger spread than tube arty - so the "danger close" area is far larger than tube arty, again making it not as good for supporting your atacking troops with close fires.

Rockets are best at killing unprotected targets, i.e. are usually best used by the defender (dug in) against an attacker in the open and are excellent if the attacker is caught bunched up. They deliver a lot of rounds quickly, but are not good at sustained fires, even if loaded from on-map ammo units. (MLRS and URAGAN are quicker to reload, (small weapon size), deliberately, to show thier quick reload systems).

The early code name IIRC for the project that led to the MLRS system was "Assault Breaker".

Used properly against a bunched attacking target array esp of infantry which has moved far (or just dismounted from fast moving transport => moving at transport speed => bunched up), and with many launchers (use them in battery fire at least, not 1s or 2s)is sure to mallet them. Use many launchers, as the drift is compensated by the large number of units firing, so some will get on target!.

Also - units which are under rocket fire get a little extra supression (the "Moaning Minnie" effect of Nebelwerfers), as do troops under air strafing, or flame attack.

Andy

Mustang · #4 January 24th, 2006, 12:11 PM

What does IIRC mean?

Still, rocket artillery with cluster munitions is extremely effective, and one batallion will probably rout a 1,000-point tank platoon if it's fairly bunched up. How do you determine cost for units? Is it by their effectiveness or availability in the actual army using them? If it's by effectivness, 250 points is way too cheap for any MLRS or cluster munition launcher.

hoplitis · #5 January 24th, 2006, 01:56 PM

IIRC = IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY
I dont think you can buy soviet/russian rocket arty with bomblets/minelets with 250 points. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mobhack · #6 January 24th, 2006, 04:08 PM

the base cost 4 4 off-map uragan platoon is 665 points.

The on-map uragan is 96 points (8 rounds) per launcher, which is fine considering that is about 1 fire opportunity. Add ammo trucks costs for repeat firing in the game, plus time to motor off the firing line to resupply (unless you stand still beside the trucks, waiting for the inevitable CB fires !

- a move to the ammo trucks, wait a turn, maybe 2, a move to a new firing point, then time to plot the new bombardment etc.

Andy

JaM · #7 January 24th, 2006, 08:04 PM

Mustang:You look at this from wrong side. You didnt purchased 6.battalions, you purchased fire suport from them.They will fire one or two fire mission for you, so you are paying for fire mission, not for whole battalion...

hoplitis · #8 January 25th, 2006, 04:56 AM

JaM
correct way of putting it but there is a catch. On map arty are targets (and under certain circumstances off map arty too)and on game terms they are units that can perform other tasks (they can take an objective hex etc).So they must be "managed" all way through the game. In the case of Mustang's 6 battalions I'd suggest that if he didn't buy ammo trucks or something equivalent and after using his one or two fire missions and enjoying the "big bang", to seriously consider moving them off map. It is not a retreat it's a permanent tactical redeployment LOL.
And by the way it would be nice if Mustang lets us know the outcome of the battle.

Mustang · #9 January 25th, 2006, 01:57 PM

Well, I'm writing an AAR, but the other guy hasn't replied to my email for two days. I resent my email just a few minutes ago in case it didn't get through. But other than that, it's no that great. I don't think I'm ever playing a PBEM meeting engagment again- there's no fighting, both sides just stay on the defense and attrit the enemy. Still, my arty has been devastating him.

Quote:

Mustang:You look at this from wrong side. You didnt purchased 6.battalions, you purchased fire suport from them.They will fire one or two fire mission for you, so you are paying for fire mission, not for whole battalion...

Still, I have 3 batallions of infantry supported by 6 batallions of artillery. I should have bought a single ammo dump- I move away from it, fire of all my ammo, move back to it, them move away and fire some more. Because you only need one ammo dump to supply all of my six batallions, I could have had a ridiculous ammount of firepower on hand. IMO the Uragan is way too cheap and should be bumped up to about the price of the MLRS. Even if I was the divisional main effort and was recieveing tons of artillery support, I don't think that I'd have six batallions always on call. IMO off-map artillery should be a lot cheaper because it isn't just dedicated to you and is supporting a lot of other forces also.

thatguy96 · #10 January 25th, 2006, 03:15 PM

I still say that counter battery fire and other tricks of dealing with on-map artillery more than make up for the price and effort of moving artillery around. I've taken out whole batteries during games by air-dropping units behind the lines and with counter-battery fire during games. Helo gunships skirting the sides of the map are also an issue.

There are ways around being caught in this kind of barrage, and if your opponent isn't doing it, its because its the AI (which rarely engages in counter-battery fire) or because your opponent is a masochist.