New Arty Routine

BigJim · #1 November 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM

While I applaud the effort to make the game more interesting I think the new AI arty routine has brought back an old problem that SSI had to fix, namely "borg" arty.

The arty routine for the AI allows instant and always on target correction and in some cases spotting where nothing has moved and it has no LOS.

Please don't ask for a test file since this can be easliy seen in any game you wish to set up.

DRG · #2 November 4th, 2006, 02:07 AM

Every time we release a new version of either game somebody complains the AI has developed supernatural arty ability ( ie we let it cheat )

However, you're the first to assume that EVERYBODY must already see this so there's absolutely no need whatsoever to prove it.

Well, I tell you what I always tell people and it's not because I'm covering anything up but because it's true

The AI does not have "special powers" It cannot see through hills or beyond the visible range in the game. It WILL however, because Andy programmed it this way, select likely areas of deployment and hammer those areas if given the chance at the start of the game . If you got nailed that way, blame Andy, not the AI as it's only "following orders".

If you move in high visibility and create dust the AI will target the dust. That's something any human would do.

If you fire on map arty or mortars that produce smoke the AI will target that. Again, this something any human player would do as well.

The AI does NOT use Forward observers. Only human players use those to adjust fire.

So, if this "can be easily seen in any game you wish to set up." then the test game I just set up should show it easily as I gave the AI SIX British Divisional artillery groups but I only gave it a company of infantry. I wouldn't want to throw the test off with troops infiltrating my lines and spotting "where nothing has moved and it has no LOS."

I set up my troops away from the front and behind high hills and away from the roads. ( Italy 1943, November ) ( ... the AI likes Roads and little towns BTW so expect it to try to neutralize them )I then moved them here and there and sometimes nowhere at all and it was no surprise to me that of all the artillery under the AI's control there were only a couple of stonks that came only a bit close to any of my troops but it did beat the living crap out of the two roads leading through the town on my side of the map. At the very least, 98 % of the arty the AI fired at me landed on empty ground because I avoided the places we've told to hit becasue people like to put troops there. That's not "cheating" that's what any human player would do if given the chance.

For 14 turns I paraded a full strength panzer company around in circles within a ten hex area of the map. Any AI with the ability you claim it has and all that arty at it's disposal would nail that right away. I even moved them a couple of turns then waited a couple of turns so the AI would have lot's of time to target them and NOT ONE SHELL was directed at them but the AI did target the areas around the Victory hex clusters that it's one company of infantry was advancing on but I wasn't within 20 hexes of them . I ended the game at turn 14 and there was not one casualty on my side. NOT ONE. Now...you'd think with 34 troops of artillery and "borg" ability the AI would have killed somebody on my side wouldn't you ?? ( I had two companies of tank and three companies of infantry )

So, if anyone else agrees with this "borg" arty theory and can actually prove this is happening I will be happy to fix it.

Good luck..

Don

BigJim · #3 November 8th, 2006, 06:56 PM

Swell DRG you set up some armour where you "knew" the arty wouldn't target and then ran around inside that area posing no threat to the enemy and receiving no damage and this test PROVES that I am wrong about the AI routine????

The game is supposed to be about tactical warfare (or so I thought) but if your're going to be fair to the human player let him adjust his core to every battle like the AI does etc etc.

I set up a battle in a camp with all my armour behind hills away from the roads and out of sight of the enemy and guess what the arty targeted all the high asset stuff and either outright smoked or made useless (killed all the guns so it couldn't fire) on 9 tanks BEFORE the first move.

The result was half my armour out the game before I started.

Not to mention that any player infantry anywhere close to an arty bust is routed where as I have had the AI troops take barrage after barrage of 15cm arty and never flinch.

Never the less thanks for the answer it is what I expected so I will just continue on without further comment.

PatG · #4 November 8th, 2006, 09:22 PM

Jim - this "problem" keeps coming up and keeps being disproven to the point that it gets annoying and some people get a bit testy.

Personally I have never had this problem nor have many others. This isn't to say you aren't running into problems in your particular setup. You may well have discovered a legitimate bug - BUT - a test game is needed to prove it. Please take the time to post one and I'm sure the powers that be will take a look at it.

BigJim · #5 November 9th, 2006, 01:03 AM

LOL ok well I just had a battle where his (The AI) 81 mm morters killed more troops than my 150 MM arty in fact the only time my arty was really effective was when it was blue on blue (which happens alot in this game if you try to use it as close support).

I am sorry but if your not seeing this I would love to see a test game of urs.

I find that the supression routine works great on the Player troops but doesn't seem to apply to the AI. I mean in this last battle any 81mm shell dropped within a hex of my troops caused thme to rout (vets) while the AI troops took hit after hit 150 mm with little or no effect to moral.

It's not a real problem since it is just a game but it has NO bearing on what a battle is really like at all. This could just a well be called Lizards and Wizards and would be just as describtive

thatguy96 · #6 November 9th, 2006, 01:43 AM

I just want to add in right now that artillery is not a very useful close support weapon. This is the very reason for tactics that involve the method of "grabbing your enemy by the belt" to negate his artillery advantage. They call it "danger close" for a reason.

You're also not giving us any additional info here. What type of terrain were your units on? Their units? Were they moving? Were you stationary? Did they have LOS to your troops? Did you to your targets? These all have a bearing on how effective artillery is in game and in real life.
I'd also be interested to see what the countries you're playing with.

I mean, I've had my guys in dense forest or jungle take a serious pounding from a half dozen 82mm mortars and not take casualities or serious suppression, and they were stationary. Also bear in mind that these were MIKE Force infantry, which as I've set them up in my Vietnam OOB pack have reduced exp and moral ratings to begin with

Marek_Tucan · #7 November 9th, 2006, 02:56 AM

The problem with the suppression may come from the fact that 81mm mortars do land more shells per turn on target than 15cm guns, so while 15cm do create more suppression and more chance to create a casaulty per shot, 81mm gets more shots, thus creating in result more casaulties and suppression.

Pyros · #8 November 9th, 2006, 04:49 AM

Hi BigJim,

Please try to compare results concerning the attached test scenario (slot500).

This is a one turn scenario with identical nations/units and identical pre-emptive heavy artillery missions for both AI and human.

Simply hit "END TURN" on turn1 and examine the casualty reports for both the AI and the human.

Since everything is mirrored try to note down the results of 20 tests and then calculate an average.

If there is anything (concerning the code) that works in favor of the AI then you should notice a significant difference.

cheers,
Pyros

DRG · #9 November 11th, 2006, 03:16 PM

You imply the game will deliberately target your best equipment .."the arty targeted all the high asset stuff and either outright smoked or made useless (killed all the guns so it couldn't fire) on 9 tanks BEFORE the first move."

The game is not programmed to favour the AI. The AI has no knowledge of your deployment and, if it does have artillery, will target areas behind your deployment line at game start either at random, or at points of interests that Andy programmed it to target.

You also imply that the AI gets an advantage over the Human player in regards to suppression......"the supression routine works great on the Player troops but doesn't seem to apply to the AI"

Again, the game is not programmed to favour the AI. Suppression is applied equally to both the human and AI based on a wide range of factors ( did the unit move or not, what level of suppression where they at before being attacked, etc ) that may or may not be obvious to the player.

You have complained about a number of aspects of this game and I have asked you on a number of occasions to provide us with a save game so we can see what you are seeing. To date I have not received one. This arty complaint ( "borg spotting") is the same one you brought up in June 2005 on the " SPAA or SPAG ?" thread of the WinSPMBT forum and Andy wrote a long post to you about that at the time and now a year and a half later we are right back to this again. The answer is the same now as it was then.

There are further similarities in your complaints from recent and past posts. From June 2005.." I could list dozen's but why bother, as a beer and pretzels game it's OK but bears NO resemblance to a real life situation. " and now in November 2006...."It's not a real problem since it is just a game but it has NO bearing on what a battle is really like at all. This could just a well be called Lizards and Wizards and would be just as descriptive "

In all that time you have not provided us with ONE shred of evidence of your assertions in the form of a save game. Also, wouldn't you think that if this was so obvious that everybody could see it that you'd have dozens ( perhaps hundreds ) of people supporting you and also asking for change? There's wasn't then are there aren't now.

The last time you brought this up Andy ended his post with the following statement.....

Quote:

"Please demonstrate with hard evidence anything that backs up your assertions, and I'll gladly look into it."

We're still waiting . If you can support what you claim with proof we will look at it. If you are unable or unwilling to do so there is little point in you posting here

Don

Charles22 · #10 November 12th, 2006, 03:42 AM

The only evidence that suppression favors the AI, comes from just giving the AI the side that is less susceptible to it, such as an AI Germany against the USSR or France. Most of my games have been played as Germany and the enemies get suppressed quite a bit quicker than my guys, but part of that has to do with strategy too. If you're throwing 4 tanks against 20 infantry units, the tanks might often get pinned just from the quantity of fire alone against them. This would be more so when playing a nation such as the USSR.

About the artillery thing though, I used to think the same way he did, and it might has been true back in the day (SPWAW probably) but when you see a number of barrages hit where you have absolutely nothing, then you know the use of a borg arti is non-existent or largely curtailed.