.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

The Falklands War - Save $7.00
War Plan Pacific - Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 16th, 2008, 07:33 PM

Sombre Sombre is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,463
Thanks: 165
Thanked 324 Times in 190 Posts
Sombre is on a distinguished road
Default Fear mechanics

At the behest of someone on the irc channel, I just ran some tests.

I made a prot 40 fear 15 commander with 0 att no armour no weapons, enc0, morale 30. I sent him against indies.

1. The indies routed despite him not doing any damage, so fear causes morale checks.
2. Many of the indies had very low or even negative morale scores, so fear reduces morale.
3. Only the indies right next to him got reduced morale from the fear, so the radius formula stated in the manual is wrong.
4. Despite base prot 40 he took damage from broadsword indies on numerous occasions, generally in the region of 3 or 4 damage a time. It was something like every tenth swing or so that seemed to hit and do damage. This doesn't seem to fit with what I understood about protection.

Conclusion - The manual is very wrong about fear.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old July 16th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Kristoffer O's Avatar

Kristoffer O Kristoffer O is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 25
Thanked 92 Times in 43 Posts
Kristoffer O is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

Why very wrong?

1. is in accordance with the manual.
2. The manual doesn't say anything about this, so I'm not sure if it is actually wrong or just omitting stuff.
3. No it is not. (unless the affected squares stack on top of one another or some other bug)
__________________
www.illwinter.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 16th, 2008, 11:49 PM
JimMorrison's Avatar

JimMorrison JimMorrison is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Utopia, Oregon
Posts: 2,676
Thanks: 83
Thanked 143 Times in 108 Posts
JimMorrison is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

1. "Rout is checked by squad ... a squad will take a morale check if: ... The squad is near a monster causing Fear"

I always understood this to mean that even Fear+0 causes morale checks every round, they're just fairly easy to beat at first.


2. I did some Fear testing awhile back too. It seems to have some sort of cumulative effect, which is in fact VERY different from what the manual states - I wonder if KO has the same version of the manual, or replied to the post without looking.

"Units in a monster's Fear area of effect must take a morale check against the monster's Fear, or rout. The basic Fear effect requires a check against 10 ...The Fear strength itself is increased for every full +5 Fear, so a Fear +10 unit would ... force a morale check against 12."

In my tests, it was shown that not only does the Fear effect not just produce its own isolated rolls, but it rapidly deteriorates the Morale of adjacent units. This effect is cumulative over at least 3 rounds of exposure, and is measurably far greater than the Morale deterioration seen without Fear active. For this reason, many people consider Fear + Awe to be invaluable, and my testing confirms that it is incredibly powerful - perhaps too powerful. -- Just a recap, the manual does not state that the Fear does anything other than force a check, but it does reduce Morale as well.


3. My own tests had implied the same, that there is something awry with the Fear radius. It DOES describe it as "additional" squares, which says to me that it works the same as AOE spells do, but does that mean that Fear+0 radiates to only the 8 squares surrounding the monster, and that each point after that only adds 1 square? If so, then at Fear+12 you would finally get a full radius of 2 around your monster, however even with a Fear +20 PoD, I was hard pressed to find units that were not adjacent, that had measurably lowered Morale scores.


4. I've noticed this sort of behavior as well, it does seem there are reasons why lower damage units can successfully damage a very high prot unit. I can't explain why, the chances of scoring a decent hit have always seemed greater than the probability implied by a comparison of damage+str vs protection values.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old July 17th, 2008, 12:38 AM

MaxWilson MaxWilson is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,497
Thanks: 165
Thanked 105 Times in 73 Posts
MaxWilson is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

Quote:
JimMorrison said:
This effect is cumulative over at least 3 rounds of exposure, and is measurably far greater than the Morale deterioration seen without Fear active.

In fact, Fear is the ONLY thing which causes deterioration of Morale scores. Damage to a unit affects the bonus to
the Morale check for unit "intactness", not Morale itself.

By the way, Fear +0 has AoE 5 IIRC because it's actually Fear +5. (E.g. three Fear +0 items give you Fear +10.)

-Max
__________________
Bauchelain - "Qwik Ben iz uzin wallhax! HAX!"
Quick Ben - "lol pwned"

["Memories of Ice", by Steven Erikson. Retranslated into l33t.]
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 17th, 2008, 03:37 AM
Endoperez's Avatar

Endoperez Endoperez is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Eastern Finland
Posts: 7,110
Thanks: 145
Thanked 153 Times in 101 Posts
Endoperez is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

Fear starts from Fear -5. That's from DomII, where Fear was different.

I'm not sure how it works, but Fear +0 having AoE 5 is certainly one quite probable option.


The protection/damage thing is also quite interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 17th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Kristoffer O's Avatar

Kristoffer O Kristoffer O is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 25
Thanked 92 Times in 43 Posts
Kristoffer O is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

> In my tests, it was shown that not only does the Fear effect not just produce its own isolated rolls, but it rapidly deteriorates the Morale of adjacent units. This effect is cumulative over at least 3 rounds of exposure, and is measurably far greater than the Morale deterioration seen without Fear active. For this reason, many people consider Fear + Awe to be invaluable, and my testing confirms that it is incredibly powerful - perhaps too powerful. -- Just a recap, the manual does not state that the Fear does anything other than force a check, but it does reduce Morale as well.

As I said, an omission.

> My own tests had implied the same, that there is something awry with the Fear radius. It DOES describe it as "additional" squares, which says to me that it works the same as AOE spells do, but does that mean that Fear+0 radiates to only the 8 squares surrounding the monster, and that each point after that only adds 1 square? If so, then at Fear+12 you would finally get a full radius of 2 around your monster, however even with a Fear +20 PoD, I was hard pressed to find units that were not adjacent, that had measurably lowered Morale scores.

It is 12 random squares close to the fear inspiring one, not necessarily the squares surrounding him.

It might distribute lik this (X=targeted square, M=monster)

Code:
OXOOO
XXXXO
XXMXX
OOXOO
OOXOO
I think it targets a square, and if that one is already targeted it tries to target a random neigbopring square of the first attempted square
__________________
www.illwinter.com

Last edited by lch; November 11th, 2008 at 04:27 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old July 17th, 2008, 08:13 AM

Sombre Sombre is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,463
Thanks: 165
Thanked 324 Times in 190 Posts
Sombre is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

Quote:
Kristoffer O said:
Why very wrong?

1. is in accordance with the manual.
2. The manual doesn't say anything about this, so I'm not sure if it is actually wrong or just omitting stuff.
3. No it is not. (unless the affected squares stack on top of one another or some other bug)
1. Yes it is. I was documenting things fear does, not points on which the manual was incorrect.
2. I think it's a major omission because it's a major featue of fear, but ok, technically I suppose it isn't wrong to omit that.
3. The test I ran seemed to indicate otherwise.

Let me put the full text from the manual up, regarding fear.

"Units in a monster's Fear are of effect must take a morale check against the monster's Fear, or rout. The basic Fear effect requires a check against 10. Unlike Awe, the bonus to Fear indicates the additional area of effect, not the fear strength. So a Fear +4 monster has normal Fear that radiates to 4 additional squares. The Fear strength itself is increased for every full +5 fear, so a fear +10 unit would radiate to ten additional squares, and force a morale check against 12. The base area of effect (Fear +0) is 6 squares."

Things that are wrong (not just omitted).

Units are routed by fear - I haven't seen individual units rout, just groups. If units refers to groups, why is the 'monster' referred to as a 'fear +10 unit'?
Fear value is aoe, not power - With fear 14 my monster should have had a fear radius of 20 (6+14) but the only units with reduced morale were directly adjacent.

I can't comment about fear value not = strength, because since the manual omits the whole thing about fear reducing morale, there's no reason it should mention that a high fear unit causes far more morale reduction than a low fear one (more than the +1,2 or 3 to the morale check requirement would suggest).


I'm not making this thread to complain, just to get some more info on how fear works. I went with the manual regarding the aoe but the tests don't appear to show it working that way.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 17th, 2008, 08:14 AM

Zeldor Zeldor is offline
General
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,414
Thanks: 26
Thanked 73 Times in 49 Posts
Zeldor is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

JimMorrison:

What do you mean by strength? Isn't it AoE of Fear increased every 5 levels of Fear and every point of fear making it harder to resist?
__________________
谋事在人,成事在天。

LA Agartha guide
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old July 17th, 2008, 08:19 AM
Kristoffer O's Avatar

Kristoffer O Kristoffer O is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 25
Thanked 92 Times in 43 Posts
Kristoffer O is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

> Fear value is aoe, not power - With fear 14 my monster should have had a fear radius of 20 (6+14) but the only units with reduced morale were directly adjacent.

This might be due to the fact that units regain morale every turn. Thus units not adjacent might have their morale restored to their normal value before it is comes into effect. Units closer to the fear source get their morlae lowered enough that they never have time to regain it, making it appear as if they were the only ones affected.
__________________
www.illwinter.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old July 17th, 2008, 08:20 AM

Sombre Sombre is offline
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,463
Thanks: 165
Thanked 324 Times in 190 Posts
Sombre is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fear mechanics

Quote:
Kristoffer O said:
It is 12 random squares close to the fear inspiring one, not necessarily the squares surrounding him.

It might distribute lik this (X=targeted square, M=monster)

OXOOO
XXXXO
XXMXX
OOXOO
OOXOO

I think it targets a square, and if that one is already targeted it tries to target a random neigbopring square of the first attempted square
Hmm. Seems possible this would cause the test results. I didn't see a single unit that wasn't directly adjacent with reduced morale, but I didn't run that many tests, I admit.

Edit: And units regain morale on their own? That I also didn't know. At least I'm learning some stuff here.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.