Balance on small maps

[Endoperez]

What about Atlantis Living Pillar rush? Or Carnute rush? Or Caelum Temple Guard rush?

Lets compare some simple things. Helhirding Vs EA Ermor' Equite of the Sacred Shroud.

Hel vs Equite
hits: 14 vs 13
prot: 10/15 vs 12/18
morl: 13 vs 13
mag.r.: 14 vs 12
str: 12 vs 11
att: 13 vs 10
def: base 14, total 19 vs base 12, total 17 BEFORE Glamour
move: 3/26 vs 2/22

Vanir also have Stealth +25 and Glamour.
Equites of the Sacred Shroud have Rejuvenation, or heal their afflictions.

Which one is better?

12 vs 20 resources.
75 vs 65 gold.



EA Ermor Principes, with 11 hp/str/att/def, cost 15 gp.
EA Helheim Huskarls, with 13 hp, 11 str, 12 att and base def 13, cost 25 gp. I'm not sure Principes bought with equal amount of gold could stand against Huskarls, even if their equipment gives them the same defence and much better protection. Of course, as recruiting Principes takes more resources, it's rare to see numbers balanced by gold cost. And of course, Vanir Huskarls are only base troops; its Hirdmen Principes should be comparable to.



I'll offer another comparison, Marverni Boar Warriors and Vanheim Vanheres.
Vanhere vs Boar Warrior

hits: 15 vs 14
prot: 12/15 vs 12/15
morl: 15 vs 13
mag.r.:14 vs 10
enc: 6 vs 5
str: 13 vs 12
att: 12/11 vs 11 after ambidext. and weapon penalties
def: 12 vs 11, before glamour
base def: 13 vs 10
move: 2/11 vs 2/10

berserk: +5 vs +3
Vanhere has Stealth +25 and Glamour.

50 gp, 15 res vs 35 gp, 15 res
Boar Warriors have better equipment. Their armor is less encumbering. They have a shield. Their final attack skill is lower than that of a dual-wielding Vanhere. Their defence with a shield is lower than that of a dual-wielding Vanhere.



It's not blesses alone. If it were, Oiorpata rushes and Equite rushes and Boar Warrior rushes would be commonplace. It's Glamour, and Stealth, and superhuman stats, and the fact that these abilities come for just 10-15 more gp. Principe is 15 gold, Hirdman is 30. If Equites and Oiorpata are 65 and 50 gp, Helhirdings should cost more than 75 gp. If Boar Warriors are 35 gp, Vanheres should cost more than 50 gp.
Another interesting comparison would be Equite of the Sacred Shroud against a White Centaur. 65 gp, light lance and better armor against 70 gp and spear and javelin, stealth, berserk, forest survival and mapmove 3, better strengh and better magic resistance. Att, def and morale are identical before berserk. Centaur Warrior's hoof is 0 dam + str, so 13 before and 16 damage after berserk, while Equite's is just 10.
Normal Equites and normal Centaur Warriors cost the same, btw.

[Nerfix]

How about you people play something else than Early Age and against someone else than EA Vanheim/Helheim before you complain? EA Vanheim/Helheim are easily the most grossly overpowered nations in the whole game and they would own even with no blesses. For Umor's sake, almost all of their units have freaking Glamour!

Niefelheim is another very powerful nation because their Niefel giants have awesome stats AND they have built-in mob counter (to an extent) in the form of Chill. They would be very nasty (though cost inefficient) even without any blesses at all.

Mictlan is very, very efficient with blesses but then again, if you are a Caelum (or pretty much anyone with missile weapons) why not just buy archers and let their units perish under a rain of arrows? I didn't see A4 bless mentioned in that W9/F9 bless... Works perhaps a bit worse in action than on paper, but I'd expect that missile weapons would work fine against them. OzeLOLs excluded, because they fly. Ouch.

Early Tien's recruitable sacreds are glass cannons for 3/4ths of the game with that 1/4th being Spring. Even on spring they are vulnerable to missiles unless you take Air with that Fire and Water. Their summonable blessables are nice though.

It's worth noting that these hard to stop rushes seem to have a number of points in common:

Nations with fast sacred troops with multiple attacks that synergize extremely well with a major fire blessing, boosted even more with a major water one.

Contact with these troops is particularly painful in EA because of the low protection around, and I guess most games are played in this Age that seems to have more of a novelty feel.

Maybe fire blessing should be changed to say:
5ap in EA
6ap in MA
7 ap in LA

That way 12 protection troopers would have a chance to survive the first hits in EA, instead of just dying in droves.

All the above is even more painful with regards to the various Vanir troops, that are maybe too good as it has been pointed (they destroy anything they run into, but they are almost untouchable themselves).

[Teraswaerto]

If the Vanir are too good, IMO it would be better to increase costs rather than make them weaker.

[Nerfix]

Teraswaerto said:
If the Vanir are too good, IMO it would be better to increase costs rather than make them weaker.

The Vanir troops should be more expensive. They are almost untouchable and from what I remember Glamour allows them to even dodge magic! Not only that, this allows an Air nation to tie down sweet, sweet targets which are then ripe for Lightning Bolt shooting. No nation has better tanking units AND cavalry than EA Vanheim/Helheim. Who care about armor when it take a severe Def penalty from swarming just to freaking hit a van/hel unit!

To put it shortly, they are grossly overpowered. I'd say that anything short of equal number of Niefel Giants or Jag Warriors with solid mage backup and with some ridiculous bless will get obliterated by a semi-skilled Van/Hel player.

[Twan]

I think the default game settings are not supposed to be balanced on very small maps and have no reason to. Dominions is a game about gods fighting for the domination of the world, not of the Luxemburg.

On maps of 50 provinces or less, try settings like 250% gold & ressources (or like 50% gold if you want less sacred instead of more normal), easy research and 70% sites, then the number of normal troops would probably be sufficient to counter high bless rush a sufficient time to make battle magic efficient and summons available (and to have good scales would be far more important).

PS : I dislike the idea of suppressing the bless effects before awakening, except for making a new awakening *option*, eventually coupled with a little less points for normal awakening. But I'd like to see this choice as a new one. Something like :
- dormant 125pts
- dormant out of this plane (no bless) 150pts
- imprisoned 200pts
- imprisoned out of this plane (no bless) 250pts (or even 300 as no bless during 36+ turns is a real handicap)

[Endoperez]

Twan said:
I think the default game settings are not supposed to be balanced on very small maps and have no reason to. Dominions is a game about gods fighting for the domination of the world, not of the Luxemburg.

On maps of 50 provinces or less, try settings like 250% gold & ressources (or like 50% gold if you want less sacred instead of more normal), easy research and 70% sites, then the number of normal troops would probably be sufficient to counter high bless rush a sufficient time to make battle magic efficient and summons available (and to have good scales would be far more important).

Doesn't work.

with both gold and res at 250%, both Van and Helheim can produce 10 sacred units/turn, WITH Sloth 3. Order 3/Prod 3 nations would have a huge surplus of gold (1500+ gold on turn 4), but second castle can't be built quickly enough for it to matter, and the numbers aren't comparable to the devastation the Glamoured sacred units bring. 150 units aren't enough. Perhaps 200-250 untis recruited at max, little more if they are unarmoured bowmen. Sounds big, right? That'd have to cope with 10 sacred units/turn that have taken no losses. 60, 70, 80, 90 Helhirdings? Won't do.

I also tested 250% resources. The same problem, in a smaller scope. It didn't actually slow down the recruitment of non-sacred units, but there was less surplus gold. 150 units can't deal with few dozen Helhirdings. 90 units can't deal with 8 Helhirdings and 10 Glamoured Huskarls.

[Twan]

Endo... Have you tried a non-blessed rush with these scales ? I've made a fast test solo. Small random map, 250% all, indie 7, easy research.

Maverni take an awake wyrm dominion 10, no magic, prod 1 ord 1.
Vanheim take an imprisoned pretender, dom 10, sloth 3, cold 3, drain 1, w9f9 bless

I think it's not far to be balanced...

turn 1 : vanheim make a prophet and can make 8 vanherses + recruit a van (or may take 1 province with starting troops if they are lucky in a blind attack) ; maverni make a prophet, take a province (except in case of very very bad luck), make 14 carnute nobles and a mage (or can take 2 provinces if they are very lucky with a blind attack, and recruit 13 nobles and a leader).

turn 2 : vanheim can take a province, and make 8 vanherses + recruit a van (or can make 9 vanherses) ; maverni take 2 provinces, make 17 eponi knights and a new 80 leader + a commander and 22 archers on the first province taken

turn 3 : vanheim can take 2 provinces and make 10 vanherses + 2 hirdmen, maverni take 3, make 22 eponi knights, a new leader, 2 new commanders, 22 archers, 14 indep heavy infantry

turn 4 : vanheim attack 3 provinces, maverni chose to take just 2 as a vanheim army is just 1 province away from the the wyrm (they know it as they have moved their scout since the beginning) ; 3 maverni armies (2x22 archers + starting maverning troops) with the wyrm encounter and defeat the first vanheim army in a neutral province, but suffer heavy casualties ; finally vanheim has just taken 2 provinces, and lost 8 sacred units + some of its starting troops (the prophet has escaped) ; the two nations continue to build troops (+ a mage for maverni)

turn 5 : the wyrm is now with a remaining pack of archers in a province neighbouring vanheim, they can probablty destroy vanheim province defense, except if the 2 remaining little vanheim armies move and patrol it ; the two nations continue to build troops (+ a 80 leader for maverni)

turn 6 : vanheim take 0 province as they must defend ; maverni take one, build troops everywhere (+ a mage), move one army with 17 cavalry to the province with the wyrm (neighboring vanheim capital) and add 21 pd to it

turn 7 : vanheim with all the troops on the capital has a good chance to take back the wyrm province (in my game they easily massacred province defense and killed the wyrm and some archers at this point suffering only 7 losses, but wiped as their leaders were killed by cavalry ; with bodyguards or more luck they should have succeeded ... But the wyrm may also have avoided them and attacked another province neighbouring Vanheim, or another one without risk to be killed by Vanheim forces, many possibilities at this point) ; anyway maverni is now building another castle, vanheim has 4 provinces to take before sieging the first one and maverni 3 times more troops + 3 mages researching (they know a school at 2 at this point)

PS : with death or misfortune 3 instead of sloth 3, vanheim may have more chances (4 more sacred units built in the first turns, 2 more in the army fighting maverni the 1st time) ; as well an heavy bless is far better on a slightly larger map (I think dom3minions server maps are a little bigger than the small random map I've used) , one more province between the capitals = 10 more sacred units recruited before being threatened (and a probable victory in the 1st encounter)

After all, imagining the same pretenders on a little bigger map, I finally agree with you, heavy blesses may be overpowered with most duel settings/maps.

[mivayan]

Twan said:
I think the default game settings are not supposed to be balanced on very small maps and have no reason to. Dominions is a game about gods fighting for the domination of the world, not of the Luxemburg.

Sure, that is a point. Perhaps the blitz playing population is a small percentage of the dom3 buyers. But settings cant fix it, unless we gain a setting like 'disable L9 blessing untill the pretender is awake / out of prison'.

Endoperez said:with both gold and res at 250%, both Van and Helheim can produce 10 sacred units/turn, WITH Sloth 3.

More like 6, since they cant afford higher dominion, but it doesn't matter.

Reasoning/info/whining about why helhirdings with water8-9 are silly hard to kill without good magic:
Glamour: every attack has 50% chance to hit the mirror image. They need to actually lose a hitpoint to an attack for this to disappear. (Mirror image is better for mages with air magic skill)

defence 23 - most things will never hit in melee.

Against other sacreds shortbows is the solution, but not here:

An arrow from a normal archer that hits a square with two helhirdings:
Attacker rolls: DRN + 6 (from size points in square)
Defender rolls: DRN + 2 + 8 (from shield parry x2) - 0 (from fatigue / 20, meaning they get easier to hit once they have attacked 5 times)
Handy chart at mage 5 in manual says: 18% chance.

Then: 10 damage vs protection 11: 38% chance to cause damage.

Then 50% chance to miss because of glamour.

So: 100 shortbow arrows that land on Helhirdings will remove glamout from about 3.4 units. I suspect that blade wind follow the same rules.

If lvl 9 blessed were disabled at first, they'd still be hard to kill, but battles would last a lot longer.

[alexti]

Twan said:
But I'd like to see this choice as a new one. Something like :
- dormant 125pts
- dormant out of this plane (no bless) 150pts
- imprisoned 200pts
- imprisoned out of this plane (no bless) 250pts (or even 300 as no bless during 36+ turns is a real handicap)

25 points won't make a real difference, in worst case it will cost one scale step, in the best it will just be use for leftover points. But maybe it might work with something like 50-150 for dormant and 85-250 for imprisoned.