Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !

[thatguy96]

RecruitMonty said:
Tanks with 75mm plus guns firing on some rickety wooden structure with HE rounds should be able to make nice holes in the wooden houses too. I mean they aren't bunkers are they.

I know this is only one source, but after reading Harry Yeide's "The Tank Killers" about WWII TDs, it seems clear that its really down the specific HE round used. There are anecdotes of TDs at close range having to fire multiple HE rounds just to make a hole big enough in a gutted stone house wall to use the structure as an improvised vehicle emplacement. It might be realistic to assume the shot is simply passing through without hitting anything hard enough to detonate it.

Also, a wooden house may appear rickety and really be so, but if you're not hitting load bearing structures and not hitting it with a round big enough to not really require good shot placement, it could likely take a surprising amount of damage.

Not entirely sure how true either of these points may be, but its something to chew on.

DRG said:
**********Look, we allow 70 ton tanks to cross wooden bridges so there's the "rickety wooden structure" argument out the window. I could easily change the code to elliminate wooden bridges altogether and only place stone/steel ones ( my preference for the "Post WW2" world of MBT )but we left them in AND we ensured that an engineer squad with a satchel charge cannot take wooden or stone/steel bridges with one go as the game used to allow. It's a game design decision we made some time ago.

Is there a way to change this? Not allow vehicles with sizes or weight over a certain number on terrain types? I understand you could do it by class, but I also understand that would be a prohibitive amount of work to make sure all the OOBs have the heavy tanks in the right class.

I only say this because the bridges not meant for 70 ton MBTs were a huge issue in places like Bosnia.

[Marek_Tucan]

thatguy96 said:
I know this is only one source, but after reading Harry Yeide's "The Tank Killers" about WWII TDs, it seems clear that its really down the specific HE round used. There are anecdotes of TDs at close range having to fire multiple HE rounds just to make a hole big enough in a gutted stone house wall to use the structure as an improvised vehicle emplacement. It might be realistic to assume the shot is simply passing through without hitting anything hard enough to detonate it.

Possible IMO, members of Cpat. Mackay's group from Arnhem specifically described how they were assaulted by Tiger II's - the tank was apparently firing Panzergranate only as the shells went through the entire building, leaving large holes in their path but not exploding.

[PlasmaKrab]

Bridges should be easier to destroy. The wooden bridge especially. Tanks with 75mm plus guns firing on some rickety wooden structure with HE rounds should be able to make nice holes in the wooden houses too. I mean they aren't bunkers are they.

Got to agree with everyone on this one. Even wooden bridges aren't supposed to be rickety (it would be fun if they could be, but hey) since they can carry any vehicle.
Regarding structure hexes, bear in mind that each hex is about 50m diameter, so blowing a "hole" through a hex or bringing down the whole block will require something more than a few direct-fire HE shells.

[RecruitMonty]

Then it would be better to do what "thatguy96" suggested with tanks and bridges. But the houses, come on. By 1946 I think most of the tank guns available to the allies (Sovs. incl.) could do serious damage even to stone houses. The High-end German stuff certainly could.

As for sounds, I found a load, Plasma seems to have also found a load, and no one ever asked for them. That's the trouble, no one ever asks. I have done in the past and all I got was... nevermind. Perhaps if someone would ask for them then maybe the changes, in that department, might begin taking shape.

Regarding craters etc, a cosmetic adjustment was what I was driving at. Still does not explain why houses remain undamaged by lighter artillery though, well it does (limit of the game code - no ground damage = no house damage) but still surely a way around this can be found. Buildings could benefit from a certain amount of visible damage from receiving lighter artillery damage. IRL if a house gets hit by a 60mm mortar round you need more than just a lick of paint to fix the damage.

[Marek_Tucan]

RecruitMonty said:
Then it would be better to do what "thatguy96" suggested with tanks and bridges. But the houses, come on. By 1946 I think most of the tank guns available to the allies (Sovs. incl.) could do serious damage even to stone houses. The High-end German stuff certainly could.

There were still houses standing in Stalingrad (though without roofs etc.) by 6th Army's capitulation...
And I doubt any tank gun would have such destructive effects as direct-fire sIG-33. With house demolitions, muzzle velocity and penetration is almost immaterial to you, amount of explosives is important. And even sIG-33 would have problems with large concrete/stone/thick-walled brick buildings, definitely it won't bring them down with one or two shots (as it would in SP) - and definitely not with indirect fire as it would have trouble hitting the building - as it is now the building suffers damage when anywhere in the 50-meter-wide circle including the building drops shell of required size. So I'd say buildings are (as with bridges) more fragile than they "should" be... I say leave them or reinforce them.

[RecruitMonty]

One, Stalingrad was 1942-43; two, I never said bring it down I just said damage it, you know make a nice whole in it and three what about the post WWII era units. You know the ones in SPMBT.

[Marek_Tucan]

Hardly much change from 1942-1943 regarding building demolitions with guns

100mm HE is weaker than 15cm, AP will pass through, HEAT will make big bang but very limited structural damage. 90mm, ditto. 105mm is a tad better with HEP rounds, the same for 120mm L11 and derivatives. However say 120mm HEAT is again significantly weaker against structures more stable than a wooden shack.

The real winner would be 165mm gun from CEV or 160mm or 240mm mortar but even there I'd doubt its abilities to bring down most buildings that I'd put into "stone building" section of SP maps with one or two shots. Oh, and then there's thermobarics for sure - they do put out big pressure, but even with that video of RPO Shmel blowing off the upper half of a small brick house I'd like to see the results of warhead impacting the target, not of warhead being placed inside

Other than that, I don't see many advancements since 1942-1943 in this field. Artillery concentrated rather on range and accuracy, its HE loads remaining on the same level as WWII (generally), improvements re. lethality were aimed at ICM and better frag patterns. Mortars generally the same. Tank guns fixed on penetration mostly, there the leaps qere great, but at the expense of HE rounds usually.

There is plethora of means designed to get inside a building - various breaching rounds etc. - but they do leave the building standing.

Again, it's the same as "stone" and "wooden" bridge - forget about "stones" and "wood" and view the buildings as "heavy" and "light" - in my Petrzalka map, I am using stone buildings primarily for old Bratislava downtown with large stone or heavy brick buildings and for newe ceoncrete block of flats, wooden buildings do represent ordinary family houses and large industrial halls, usually with light construction (getting the lighter the newer they are).