Two new MODs from me

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Bump the costs of scales from 40 to 100 points, and these changes should be OK.

[apoger]

>However I think %20 gold modifier per different scale is too much and its the one feature I noticed that really worried me in terms of how it will impact on the game. It is a huge change and will have many potential balence consequences and may prove disastrous for races starting to far from the norm.


Keep in mind that those races gain a hefty supply of nation points for those scales. I play the extreme races all the time. I have no pity for them, as they have been totally advantaged by the current scales (IMO).

Also it's not like the temperature is permenent, once they own a area they should enforce their scales there. There is only a loss of gold when owning territory inside enemy dominion that has different scale than you. I don't see this as a major issue, as this is a situation that resolves itself one way or another.


>I thought the current heat cold modifier was 5% not the 10% people seem to have been talking about

It was 10% in Dom1 and is now 5%.
In many ways the scales were halved between the Versions.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by apoger:
As would I.
I have always complained that the mage pretenders are weak.
This is on my list of things to mod.

You don't make pretenders stronger by making it relatively several times more expensive to give them magic skills.

That's an ignorant statement. Plenty of players with magic pretenders in Dom1 which had even more gold available than my mod, BTW.

Dom1 required you to patrol for that gold, and an empire was capable of getting that much even with a turmoil 3 dominion. Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme, and should be happy with a net income of around 50 gold per turn to start with. You also didn't have +90% resources for productivity 3 in addition to the large bonus to gold.

From the number of people who advised choosing a wyrm with no magic, over any other pretender, I'd also have to disagree with you on that. Most of the winners in the detailed Jblitz reports also spent next to nothing on their pretenders, and relied almost totally on their economies to win.

I would think that a better amount of gold for the order scale would be 2% to 4% per tick, more than what the other scales can provide, but not so much as to make it more valuable than adding magic skill to your pretender.

The nile valley was hardly a harsh place.

It certainly counts as a hot place though, doesn't it.

This is a stupid argument and I'm not playing anymore. If you really want to believe that people are equally adept in all temperatures, you go right ahead. Don't like my mod? Fine. Don't use it. Nobody is twisting your arm. Play the game the way you want.

While the temperature has its effect, it is nowhere near as large as you want to make it. You've presented your scales as superior to the existing ones (labelling them as balanced), so you should expect your arguments to be challenged.

I'd also really like to see you competitively play a dual 9 bless effect race with both sloth and death at 3, if taking those scales doesn't matter that much.

[ January 15, 2004, 02:43: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by apoger:
Also it's not like the temperature is permenent, once they own a area they should enforce their scales there. There is only a loss of gold when owning territory inside enemy dominion that has different scale than you.

And of supplies of course. How do you expect Abysia to invade Caelum, or vice versa under this system?

[apoger]

>Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme

Last time I'm telling you, play before speaking.

In fact Pangaea will do *much better* under my mod than the standard because of the improved luck. I did playtest.


>From the number of people who advised choosing a wyrm with no magic, over any other pretender, I'd also have to disagree with you on that.


That's a Dom1 recommendation. I haven't advocated the Wyrm for players anytime recently.

At least criticize me on a current topic.


>Most of the winners in the detailed Jblitz reports also spent next to nothing on their pretenders, and relied almost totally on their economies to win.


JTblitz was on a freaky small map where flyers could go from capital to capital. You have to consider the scenario. It was hardly representative of most Dominions play.


>I would think that a better amount of gold for the order scale would be 2% to 4% per tick, more than what the other scales can provide, but not so much as to make it more valuable than adding magic skill to your pretender.


No problem. DON'T PLAY MY MOD. PLAY WHAT YOU ENJOY.


>You've presented your scales as superior to the existing ones (labelling them as balanced),


Taken directly from the readme:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

You're reading more into things than are there. Chill, and enjoy the game.

[apoger]

>How do you expect Abysia to invade Caelum, or vice versa under this system?

With difficulty. That's the way I want it. They got 120 free nation points, let them work at fighting their opposites.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by apoger:
[QB] >Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme

Last time I'm telling you, play before speaking.

In fact Pangaea will do *much better* under my mod than the standard because of the improved luck. I did playtest.

Last time I checked, luck +3 didn't provide Pangaea with any more benefits than it did to any other nation. Turmoil 3 does however, and you've changed it to no longer have an effect on the nuber of events. You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

That's a Dom1 recommendation. I haven't advocated the Wyrm for players anytime recently.

At least criticize me on a current topic.

Your scales make the game much more like Dom1, so it certainly still applies. If you can think of a better choice for, say, Man than some kind of Wyrm with less than 4 magic under your scales then I'd like to hear about it.

JTblitz was on a freaky small map where flyers could go from capital to capital. You have to consider the scenario. It was hardly representative of most Dominions play.

If the economic resources available to players from the reports are any indication, then Dom2 is an awful lot better in that department. The armies listed are far too large.

[QUOTETaken directly from the readme:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

You're reading more into things than are there. Chill, and enjoy the game.[/quote]

If you claim that something is better a certain way, then you should be willing to back up that claim. Since you seem to think that these scales are better, then you should also be made aware of what the other consequences are (overinflated economies, weak pretenders, level 9 bless effects being less powerful than economy, etc.)

[Zapmeister]

Right now I'm working on mods to improve light cavalry (which I think are deficient) and up the precision on mages. Is there any interest out there for such things? Let me know.

Absolutely. Although I've disagreed with Alex on matters around diplomacy for a long time now, there's no question in my mind that he has a better handle on balance issues than the devs. Make those mods, Alex.

[apoger]

>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

No I was comparing Pangaea under standard scales and Panagea under my mod.

The common Panagea strategy is to attempt Turmoil-3 Luck-3 for the extra luck events. Right now it's near unplayable due to the way luck is handled.

Even though my turmoil offers no extra events, I'm telling straight up that my mods Pangaea will be much better off due to the differnce in how I do luck scale.

Hence your complaint that "Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme" is a load of crap. In fact they are better off under my mod.


>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

If you insist on comparing to other nations, then Pangaea can take Order, Luck, or other scales just as easily as anyone else. This has no bearing on anything.


Honestly Graeme, I'm weary of this childish nonsense. For the final time I will quote:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."


And that's all I have to say to you.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:26: Message edited by: apoger ]

I wouldn't want you to go hog wild with the precision, though certainly a few *minor* tweaks here and there. You also don't want to lessen the fact of Nature (eagle eyes) or Air (Aim) low end spells so they are no longer as impacting as they are now.

Edit: You should also stop fighting about the Mod that hasn't even been released. I have reservations yes. I have things I'm going to be looking at when I test it. (The least of which is pick these 'themes' that the balance wasn't keeping in mind) But I can't say anything now other than conjecture. I hope Alex has been able to use Luck to Balance out his hypothetically overwhelming Order (or in this case Turmoil) but I have to be in game to see.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:37: Message edited by: Zen ]