National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics

[Cohen]

Huzurdaddy told a right thing ... Magic Site freq should be "related" to the magic site freq settings, so Slaves found are correlated to gems founded.

Well, for mages taking out SC, as Graeme told, isn't very easy because there's SC-Fodder shielding them, attracting the spells ...
so on SC vs SC is almost the lone chance ...

The fact is that one single unit, pretender, Sc or similar, should't actually destroy any regular army. And why I've to stop an SC only by magic? What Ulm can do? Where's the strength of stell, the valour of soldiers, the epic of heroic acts, and battle tactics if all solve with magery and related summons?

Who win the game?
Who's the most clams ... who has the best research and the more gems, and best SCs.

Nation matters only early expansion ...
I know sometimes I repeat myself ... but I've very fond in this topic.
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Most magic summons have high morale (like undead), so very difficult to rout, and not only, high morale prevents them from repelling, and distruct any Awe benefits ... this is to solve too ...
Awe can work as a "X damage Shield" on Magic and Undead creatures...

What to do for repel?

[ April 26, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Huzurdaddi]

And don't forget more that's great about blood with rules like this : you don't need research!

Construction 2 : Soul Contract! YAY!
Blood 3: Bind Devil
Blood 5: Bind Ice Devil

Honestly I don't think I need anymore than that.

Hell I probably don't even need more than Soul Contract!

YAY! Let's even make research super-duper hard!

[Kel]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Who win the game?
Who's the most clams ... who has the best research and the more gems, and best SCs.

Other than your initial pretender SC, if you choose to use one, all of those are obtained by early expansion. Which, even if oyu have an SC pretender, you are still using troops for.

If you make troops retain their strength throughout the whole game, we will be micro-managing troops around 40 provinces for hours each turn and people will just quit the game.

I personally think that baseline troops being outdated in the end game was a design decision and a good one at that.

- Kel

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Well, for mages taking out SC, as Graeme told, isn't very easy because there's SC-Fodder shielding them, attracting the spells ...
so on SC vs SC is almost the lone chance ...

Your mages will automatically target the highest hitpoint units that are close to them on the battlefield, so they will almost always go for any SCs that are present. If they don't, then you don't have enough mages.

What Ulm can do? Where's the strength of stell, the valour of soldiers, the epic of heroic acts, and battle tactics if all solve with magery and related summons?

Ulm has to use independent mages, elemental immune summons like mechanical men, and a tough pretender. That's just the way Ulm plays.

who has the best research and the more gems

Well, yes, that is kind of the point really. If you aren't keeping up with research then you will lose in a game that involves powerful magic.

What to do for repel?

What about repel? It only works 50% of the time against normal morale soldiers anyways, so it's not like its a particularly powerful effect.

[Cohen]

Kel I believe a lover of strategy, and not a power player, enjoys building up a strong economy to support armies, having reinforcments lines, and keep in mind logistics and terrain surface (I'll put rules too for terrain type, so as Knights in Mountain provinces should fight dismounted, LI have armor bonus in forest and mountain provs because they skirmish while HI should fight in close formations --- graphic for skirmish is difficult to set, or better a code that spread the group out --- well all these modifiers should be applied to gold and production cost ... I made some examples of terrain affecting battle units).

I enjoy having 40 provinces and to manage my armies there and there ...
I enjoy preparing army setup.

Well ... I'm Italian and I could talk about ancient rome warfare like Pithium, only related to common units you can know.
Velites had pilums, rushed forward skirmishing to avoid enemy fire better, throw the pilums and started retreating or flanking.
Hastati was the first line, the green troops, to soften the enemy with more pilum and hand-to-hand combat, and to fatigue them.
Princeps comes after, veteran troops ... hardened fighters, and the second line would cover the retreat of the first.
Triarii were the first, the eldest of the army, that soon have to leave and be granted to have a piace of land where to live. And were far more better than Princeps ... and they cover the second line in case of routing.

This is a strategy. That will be avoided at all by "I take the big guy who does all the work ... and a little shielding forces to take the first hits and spells".

Someone of you have ever played a wargame ... those games with hexes grilled map, and square hardpaper pieces with strange simbols (usually a rectagle with X inside were infantry, with / were cavalry, and so on; sometime something more fancy like the shapes of the unit type) to represent troops with their stats (usually move and strenght, att and def, or only one representing both of them ... sometimes having morale too, leadership and so on). And you've to think about artillery support fire, weather, if your troops are supplied (not only food... ammo too), and many things?
Well perhaps is because I play these games since I was 6 years old (started with Napoleon Last Battle ... don't remember the house producint it, perhaps Avalon Hill) I like so much deep strategy ... and Dom2 has and high potential value to improve his already very good strat value.
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Repel should be changed ... a morale check should represent the fear of becoming struken by the longer weapon the enemy handle, not the skill to enter the enemy defence without taking a strike.
I believe it's better:
Repel is an Defender Attack Skill vs Attacker Attack Skill ... if defender hits, attackes take one normal it by common rules. If he doesn't he takes 1 damage, as usual, or 0.
Attacker should attack in each case, even if it had taken an hit or less.
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Some spells like the undead striking forces of 33 mounted longdead is too cheap, as Earth Attack, and many others.

[ April 26, 2004, 04:10: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Kel]

I did some snipping but I think it's all still in context...

Originally posted by Cohen:

I enjoy having 40 provinces and to manage my armies there and there ...
I enjoy preparing army setup.
Well ... I'm Italian and I could talk about ancient rome warfare like Pithium, only related to common units you can know.
Velites had pilums...
Hastati was the first line...
Princeps comes after, veteran troops...
Triarii were the first...

Someone of you have ever played a wargame ... those games with hexes grilled map, and square hardpaper pieces with strange simbols

I played Empires In Arms when I was 15 or so, as well as several other AH and SSI games. They had their place and they were good for occupying mass amounts of time (and Mountain Dew) but they weren't the only kind of 'real' strategy game, they were just one kind. No offense but played as a PBEM, *those* games would take many, many years. I mean years -very- literally with absolutely no hyperbole or exageration, years! I mean, I bet by the time you finished a game, everyone else would be playing Dom3, maybe Dom4

I would not really like to see Dom2 changed from an unusually deep fantasy wargame to an ultra-realistic (but bogged down) epic monster wargame. Those are just my feelings, of course, but I feel that the 'pacing' of the game is pretty good already and reducing the power of magic, summons and SCs would only drag out a game until everyone got bored, quit and noone was really satisfied.

I could be wrong, though. You could make a poll to see how people feel about the pacing if you like. Games Last too long ? Not long enough ? Just right ?

- Kel

[Cohen]

I played wargames on table, not Pc ...

I'm not telling about how long should be a Dom2 game however ... only to rebalance it giving more importance to National Troops/Mages, even in mid and later game.