What am I supposed to do with Shamen?

[Blitz]

Well your pretender god may be able to forge the needed items, but remember with arcane probing, there's a decent chance of finding some kind of 2-astral mage out there, even if you don't have the SS on your god.

And if you don't have astral on your pretender, I'm betting you have a combat avatar... which means the really important astral items are the pendant and amulet anyway.

[djtool]

I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by djtool:
I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?)

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen.

Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research. A magic scale makes sense with C'tis anyway (fatigue help with Raise Dead and the like is really good for the Sauromancers).

One final way to get Shamen to forge +path items is to cast Forge, which requires some earth gems and an Earth pretender. Earth is far better on a survivability front than Astral, and lends itself well to a Shaman-rush Communion.

The other nice use for the Shaman is to Forge the basic nature items like Wineskins that you probably don't want your Sauromancers to be busy with.

[djtool]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research.

I wouldn't like to have to spend 110gp for 4 res a turn...yuk

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by djtool:
I wouldn't like to have to spend 110gp for 4 res a turn...yuk

The initial cost is not particularly important to a sacred mage, which the Shaman is. It is the most cost effective researcher that C'Tis has. It also ranks just behind the Vaetti hag at 11th place in long term efficiency.

[ June 21, 2004, 14:38: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

---

Originally posted by djtool:
I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?)

---

Yep. And a mixed formation of vine men, manikins and longdead/soulless/corpse men is less vulnerable to banishment - some of the banishment is wasted on the vine men. The whole mess is still immune to poison and unroutable, so back them up with some poison slingers and have fun.

However in order to actually mix them in formation you need a commander with some decent normal and undead leadership, which usually means a Sauromancer with sceptre of authority for me. You can fake it by putting two squads in the same place in setup, but they may not mix as evenly so banish will still be able to target concentrations of undead.

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen.

Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better? (You can ask that kind of question about a lot of cheap national mages - but the Shaman has an answer.) The Shaman gives C'tis some flexibility - astral is a path that they don't otherwise have (except through randoms - and a Sauromancer with his random in astral should be leading a communion of shaman if he appears on the battlefield at all) and is useful even at low levels.

Please change the Keeper to 1 Fire, 1 Death, 1 Astral. Appropriate and useful (although still probably not as useful as the Shaman - no access to Relief or healing spells, can't forge supply items; but still usable as a communion slave, researcher, forger or site scryer).

Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research. A magic scale makes sense with C'tis anyway (fatigue help with Raise Dead and the like is really good for the Sauromancers).

One final way to get Shamen to forge +path items is to cast Forge, which requires some earth gems and an Earth pretender. Earth is far better on a survivability front than Astral, and lends itself well to a Shaman-rush Communion.

The other nice use for the Shaman is to Forge the basic nature items like Wineskins that you probably don't want your Sauromancers to be busy with.

The Shaman also provide some supplies just by being there. Minor but handy.

Really, I think their roles as relief casters and supply providers (both for their own nature magic and supply items they forge) are easy to underestimate. Although you could argue Desert Tombs needs them less, they don't have less need for Arcane Probing, communion slaves and cheap sacred researchers. If the Keeper's not going to be sacred he could at least be a point better researcher than the Shaman.

[tinkthank]

Thanks for all of this.

A follow-up question:

I also got excited about poison slingers and undead synergizing well, but I just fail to be able to get my slingers to work. I fail miserably in every single setup I have tried.
In fact, I get the majority of them killed no matter what, unless I have vastly superior forces, in which case I win (or would win) without them.

It seems that the poison slingers also have a unoverridable urge to run out and attack enemies with their daggers -- at times, at least it seems so to me, when they must have at least 1 shot left (that is, before battle round 7). Why is this?

Where do you put them on the battlefield that they can hit enemies and not kill themselves?