Random Picks and Modding...

[Scott Hebert]

I am finished with the national commanders. I will be posting the actual and calculated costs shortly. I am currently going back and inputting all the data into Excel, to double-check my work (I was doing it by hand before). Just a couple of comments for now.

Base Pan is (surprisingly) costed exactly right.
Centaurs are not considered 'mounted'.
My rubric pegs the cost of the Vanheim leaders.

Once I post, I would greatly appreciate people's input as to the various costs associated with the various abilities. As it is right now (in Excel), I will be able to rapidly change the values (and thus the totals), as a way of trying to fine-tune this.

Also, if any modders want to see how their commanders do under my rubric, please LMK (the raw data on the commanders would also be nice).

Finally, isn't there a mod that gives you access to every unit in the game? If there is, please LMK so that I can do the same for the independent commanders that I did for the national ones.

[Endoperez]

There is a map that gives you all units, but you wouldn't see their current gold cost from there. Edi has made excel spreadsheets that contain that information, they are on Arryn's site at http://www.dominions-2.org/

[Scott Hebert]

I used to have those. Are they accurate? (Not throwing stones... it's one thing to see the game info in front of me; it's quite another to work through a spreadsheet.)

In other news, here's the 'mass printing' of the calculated vs. 'real' costs of the national commanders (sub Oceania and Abysia, for the moment). I will edit this post with their information when I work up just a bit more sticktoitiveness. BTW, capital-only commanders gain a 10% reduction in price, after all calculations; Commander prices are rounded to the nearest multiple of 5; and it will be in the format of Commander Name,Real Cost, Calculated Cost.

Atlantis:

Atlantian Scout,20,30
Shambler Chief,50,50
Consort,80,90
Coral Queen,230,240
King of the Deep,290,290
Initiate of the Deep,60,45
Deep Seer,180,210

Pythium:

Scout,20,20
Assassin,60,60
Centurion,30,25
Emerald Lord,80,50
Serpent Lord,130,75
Theurg Communicant,50,40
Battle Deacon,90,45
Theurg Acolyte,90,65
Theurg,150,190
Arch Theurg,380,375
Hydra Tamer,55,40

Pythium - Serpent Cult:

Serpent Lord,130,85
Serpent Acolyte,80,65
Serpent Priest,190,210

Man:

Forester,25,30
Castellan,30,30
Monk,30,45
Bard,75,80
Lord Warden,130,70
Daughter of Avalon,80,105
Mother of Avalon,130,140
Crone of Avalon,230,255

Man - Last of the Tuatha:

Sidhe Champion,140,125
Sidhe Lord,280,250
Tuatha,390,385

Ulm:

Spy,30,30
Commander of Ulm,30,30
Black Lord,130,85
Master Smith,140,150
Siege Engineer,50,30
Priest,50,30
Lord Guardian,80,45

Ulm-Iron Faith:

Black Acolyte,40,30
Black Priest,140,140

Ulm-Black Forest:

Commander of Ulm,40,20
Ranger Captain,45,35
Illuminated One,80,60
Member of the Second Tier,160,145
Wolfherd,50,35
Fortuneteller,90,80

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,35
Commander of C'tis,40,40
Lizard Lord,60,50
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,40
Sauromancer,180,220
Shaman,110,95
Lizard King,280,215
Empoisoner,110,105

C'tis - Desert Tombs:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,95
Sauromancer,180,225

C'tis - Miasma:

Marshmaster,220,210

Arcoscephale:

Mounted Commander,60,65
Hoplite Commander,40,40
Hypaspist Commander,45,40
Strategos,65,50
Priestess,110,105
Mystic,180,165
Astrologer,180,170

Arcoscephale - Golden Era

Myrmidon Champion,35,40
Chariot Commander,70,75
Wind Lord,175,95
Engineer,60,60
Icarid Champion,50,45
Philosopher,50,45
Sceptic,50,50

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,45
Storm General,35,60
Seraph,100,155
High Seraph,175,305
Seraphine,90,110

Caelum - Return of the Raptors:

Harab Seraph,90,100
Seraph,140,135
Harab Elder,270,250

Ermor:

Centurion,30,25
Ermorian Cultist,45,30
Thaumaturg,130,120
Grand Thaumaturg,340,315

Marignon:

Paladin,130,65
Friar,40,50
Inquisitor,110,115
High Inquisitor,210,225
Initiate,65,50
Witch Hunter,150,155
Grand Master,270,305

Marignon - Conquerors of the Sea:

Captain,75,35
Chartmaker,90,80
Royal Navigator,200,205
Missionary,60,45
Admiral,100,40

Marignon - Diabolic Faith:

Diabolist,80,65
Goetic Master,190,205

Pangaea:

Black Harpy,20,45
Centaur Commander,60,60
Minotaur Lord,60,75
Centaur Hierophant,80,100
Dryad,110,140
Pan,350,350
Pandemoniac,320,265

Pangaea - New Era:

Cataphract Commander,60,60
Minotaur Commander,60,65
Keeper of Traditions,90,90
Dryad,110,110
Pan,350,290

Pangaea - Carrion Woods:

Panic Apostate,320,290
Black Dryad,90,100

Vanheim:

Herse,30,25
Vanherse,160,160
Vanjarl,280,280
Dwarven Smith,180,190
Vanadrott,380,325

Vanheim - Mitgard:

Vanherse,160,145
Vanjarl,280,255
Galderman,160,165
Volva,120,115

Vanaheim - Helheim:

Hangadrott,400,385
Svaltalf,180,165

Jotunheim:

Chief,50,75
Jotun Scout,50,95
Jotun Herse,60,85
Jotun Jarl,130,105
Jotun Gode,200,130
Vaetti Hag,55,55
Jotun Skratti,250,245
Gygja,250,205

Jotunheim - Utgard:

Seithkona,90,70
Norna,220,190

Jotunheim - Niefelheim:

Niefel Jarl,500,360
Gygja,250,230

R'lyeh:

Traitor Prince,60,70
Illithid Lord,80,85
Star Child,85,105
Starspawn,150,190
Starspawn,280,300

Mictlan:

Tribal King,40,50
Mictlan Priest,80,70
Priest King,250,235
Rain Priest,230,200
Moon Priest,230,200
High Priest of the Sun,390,350

Tien Chi:

General,80,70
Eunuch,25,10
Imperial Consort,40,15
Ceremonial Master,50,30
Minister of Rituals,100,60
Master of the Way,100,85
Celestial Master,250,195
Prince General,150,85

Tien Chi - Spring and Autumn:

Noble,80,85
Master of the Dead,75,60
Master of the Five Elements,190,140
Celestial Master,250,235

Tien Chi - Barbarian Kings:

Khan,100,85

Machaka:

Machaka Chief,30,30
Machaka Commander,45,40
Spider Lord,100,90
Ear of the Lord,70,65
Eye of the Lord,50,60
Voice of the Lord,90,80
Witch Doctor,80,65
Sorcerer,190,170
Hunter Lord,170,90
Black Sorcerer,250,205
Sorceress,110,80
Bane Spider,150,70

A couple of things to note:

The Philosopher now has the same cost as a 1-path mage. Researches two better, but can't cast rituals/forge items/find sites.

The Witch Doctor has the same research per turn that a 1-path Holy-2 priest has. So, in exchange for not being sacred, he has two more paths to ritualize/forge/find.

Now, I will try to find space for my mod somewhere, and then link to it from here. Something that will be in my mod is to increase the Astral and Death site-searching spells to 2-path required (and reducing Death's cost to 2). I feel that it breaks an otherwise equitable relationship. Voice of Apsu will also be moved down to Conjuration-2.

Once I have the mod posted, I need people to test it. Specifically, I'm afraid that if I follow the rubric, Caelum will definitely break, and R'lyeh will have problems.

While testing this version, I will be looking at another version that has slightly different magicpath costs. This is to try to alleviate the 'cheap 1-path mage' issue, but it will break R'lyeh and Caelum even more, so more analysis will be needed.

Anyway, comments are greatly welcomed.

[Saber Cherry]

Niefel Jarl is worth 500 gold =)
TC Consort for 15 gold? When I play TC I pump out consorts like crazy. They're already one of the best units in the game... IMO.
Eunuch for 10 gold? ...to good for a leader, even a terrible one. 15 or 20 gold seems like a good absolute minimum.
45 for a black harpy is too much unless you give them leadership.
30 gold for a forester? I'm not really sure if anyone uses them now...
And considering all of Man's (Avalon) mages are capitol only, increasing the price is painful.
70g Lord Wardens are pretty crazy, too... IMO.
C'tis: Even at 35 nobody will buy a taskmaster.
Bane spider at 70? ... No, I refuse to play against Machaka with that setting Those are incredibly good assassins that come with 10 death gems worth of magical weaponry.
Empoisoner also shouldn't drop in price considering their potency.

Well, those are just a few preliminary thoughts. I'm think that complexifying your formula to a form like (x^2+.5xy+(a+bc)^1.5)*10+(a^1.2+f+2x)*5+15 might be necessary to get a good result, rather than using a purly additive formula like x+2y+a+5b+c+15. I can't imagine making a purely additive formula that "considered" all of Dominions' complexities.

[The_Tauren13]

Incedentally, here's a formula I made for caulculating the worth of a unit's physical stats:
HP*((6+Prot)/6)*((Mor)/10)*((1+MR)/11)*(9/(6+Enc))*((3+Str)/13)*((2+Att)/12)*((1+Def)/11)*((3+Move)/5)*((40+AP)/50)
Go ahead and tell me how useful/worthless you think it is

A 'normal unit' with 10 hp, 10 att, 10 def, 10 str, 10 mor, 10 mr, 10, AP, 3 enc, 2 move, and 0 prot will come out as 10 gold. Also, I weighted defense more than attack and strength, and AP the least of all... I dunno, it works ok I guess.

[Scott Hebert]

The_Tauren13 said:
Incedentally, here's a formula I made for caulculating the worth of a unit's physical stats:
HP*((6+Prot)/6)*((Mor)/10)*((1+MR)/11)*(9/(6+Enc))*((3+Str)/13)*((2+Att)/12)*((1+Def)/11)*((3+Move)/5)*((40+AP)/50)
Go ahead and tell me how useful/worthless you think it is

It sucks! No, actually, I'll look into it and see what happens. Interesting formula.

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
Niefel Jarl is worth 500 gold =)

I tend to think so, too. He weighs in at 400, then gets a 40g discount from that for being capital-only.

TC Consort for 15 gold? When I play TC I pump out consorts like crazy. They're already one of the best units in the game... IMO.

They're just spies, right? They could get another 5 or 10 points for having more Stealth than the 'average Spy', but not much more. If they're found, they're dead.

Eunuch for 10 gold? ...to good for a leader, even a terrible one. 15 or 20 gold seems like a good absolute minimum.

May I ask why? He's, well, crappy, to put it mildly. He not only can but probably WILL die to the first hit he takes from anything (including a stray arrow). There's really no way you can increase that.

45 for a black harpy is too much unless you give them leadership.

10 Leadership would be 5,for a total of 50.

30 gold for a forester? I'm not really sure if anyone uses them now...

I can see them as somewhat useful as patrollers...

And considering all of Man's (Avalon) mages are capitol only, increasing the price is painful.

Um... not really. The Daughter of Avalon is the most under-costed mage in the game. The Mother and Crone are also quite under-costed, as they stand now. Really, I'm not going to cry, at all, about Man's mage costs increasing.

70g Lord Wardens are pretty crazy, too... IMO.

Perhaps, but Man's benefitting a lot from the capital-only reduction.

C'tis: Even at 35 nobody will buy a taskmaster.

Quite possibly. THe aim is less to make everything 'more usable' than to see what they all 'should' cost.

Bane spider at 70? ... No, I refuse to play against Machaka with that setting Those are incredibly good assassins that come with 10 death gems worth of magical weaponry.

Well, the Bane Spider is one of those 'niggling problems', which is how to quantify those Bane weapons.

Empoisoner also shouldn't drop in price considering their potency.

Well, if there is to be a reduction for capital-only commanders, it should be applied across the board.

Well, those are just a few preliminary thoughts. I'm think that complexifying your formula to a form like (x^2+.5xy+(a+bc)^1.5)*10+(a^1.2+f+2x)*5+15 might be necessary to get a good result, rather than using a purly additive formula like x+2y+a+5b+c+15. I can't imagine making a purely additive formula that "considered" all of Dominions' complexities.

It's quite possible that a more complex formula would give better results. As it is, though, I think the remarkable thing is not the odd 'way out there' commander so much as all of the commanders that are either spot-on or quite close to spot-on.

I am confident that, if there is a more complex formula, it is not much more complex than the (very) simple formula I am currently using.

I know others have mentioned 'prioritizing' the various stats, but then you could wrangle forever on which are more important.

I am currently considering applying a 'diminishing returns' idea on the specials... as a note, the reason Caelum and Pangaea's commanders are so expensive is the large amount of specials they have. Perhaps if there is a 'full cost/75% cost/50% cost' diminishing cost on specials, it might assuage the issue.

OTOH... there are some that have many specials (Vanheim, for instance) that come out right on... I'll have to work on it.

[The_Tauren13]

Scott Hebert said:

I tend to think so, too. He weighs in at 400, then gets a 40g discount from that for being capital-only.

I think his body is probably undercosted using an additive formula. Using my formula , I bet his body alone would come out about 300.

Here's the difference:
Lets say you have a guy with 20 HP, 20 Att, 20 Def, and everything else 'average'. An additive formula would tell you hes worth 40 gold, where as a multiplicative one would say 80. I guess Im more inclined to believe the latter, but maybe someone could run some quick combat sim tests to see how many 'average' troops that guy would be worth.
Well, the real reason I went multiplicative was that for my mod I had a guy with 5 HP, 5 Str, 5 MR, etc. who came out with a negative cost...

[Graeme Dice]

Scott Hebert said:
They're just spies, right? They could get another 5 or 10 points for having more Stealth than the 'average Spy', but not much more. If they're found, they're dead.

At 15 gold, I'll have 10 or more castles recruiting nothing but consorts. That way I can completely shut down an opponent's economy. With 100 consorts you could shut down something like 10 provinces a turn, and never lose more than 1 in each province.

I can see them as somewhat useful as patrollers...

You don't patrol unless you are trying to catch spies or assasin's, and then you'll use enough cheap units that the bonus on a commander doesn't matter too much.

Um... not really. The Daughter of Avalon is the most under-costed mage in the game.

Which doesn't matter much past turn 5, as you'll be recruiting nothing but Crones as soon as possible.

The Mother and Crone are also quite under-costed, as they stand now. Really, I'm not going to cry, at all, about Man's mage costs increasing.

Man is limited to a single crone per turn, which isn't nearly enough to keep up in most cases.

Perhaps, but Man's benefitting a lot from the capital-only reduction.

Man doesn't benefit from the capitol only reduction. Man is hamstrung by the capital only restriction for everything past the very earliest parts of the game.

Well, if there is to be a reduction for capital-only commanders, it should be applied across the board.

You have to price commanders based on what they can accomplish. Empoisoner's are just about the only assasins that you'll ever be able to make use of besides taking out independents early on.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:Empoisoners are just about the only assasins that you'll ever be able to make use of besides taking out independents early on.

Hey, my modded assassins and slayers are pretty cool And I loved building slayers in the base game. Skull Talisman, Boots of the Messenger, Lifelong Protection, Copper Plate and Lucky Coin made them able to take over many remote provinces alone... and those are all low-level items.

Of course, the way I play is not necessarily an effective way to play...