The problem of low hit points on humans

[Agrajag]

Epaminondas said:

If that is the case, then he was being a jack ***--pure and simple. Someone comes to a game forum looking for more information on the game before he buys it, and he is warrantlessly treated like a common thief?

WTF?

It also says a lot about the intelligence of such a person. If I actually had a copy of the full game (pirated or not) why would I be asking Endoperez and others for more photos of units that interest me--and ask other questions that clearly indicate that I do not know what happens in late-game?

But then I suppose behind the veil of anonymity online, you can throw out any kind of scurrilous accusations about someone, because you are not accountable.

Well, I did just say that's my guess as to what he thought.
Beyond that... The veil of anonymity is also a great way for someone with an illegal copy of the game to go unnoticed, and in this case make do without a manual.
Also, since the manual is one of the selling points of this game, I could see why we would not want to make manual knowledge available to those who don't pay for it.

Also, did you consider that option that Arralen just didn't see the part where you had no manual (and maybe even felt a bit upset at how lazy you are not checking the manual )


Either way I don't see why you have to get so upset, you did get your answer after all, and considering how you are just another anonymous person over here, there's no reason not to be suspicious. Other than being curteous to other people.

[Epaminondas]

Agrajag said:

Well, I did just say that's my guess as to what he thought....


Either way I don't see why you have to get so upset, you did get your answer after all, and considering how you are just another anonymous person over here, there's no reason not to be suspicious. Other than being curteous to other people.

Agrajag,

1. And I did say that Arralen is a jack *** only IF that is what he thought.

2. So you think it's normal to accuse everyone who doesn't have the game manual to have a pirated version instead of just a demo version? Even if you subtract the evidence I put forth before that clearly demonstrate that I don't know what happens in late game and do not have full version of the game, I'd suspect just as a percentage thing that the most reasonable assumption is actually that someone who doesn't have a manual only has a Demo copy rather than a pirated copy.

[Agrajag]

Epaminondas said:

2. So you think it's normal to accuse everyone who doesn't have the game manual to have a pirated version instead of just a demo version? Even if you subtract the evidence I put forth before that clearly demonstrate that I don't know what happens in late game and do not have full version of the game, I'd suspect just as a percentage thing that the most reasonable assumption is actually that someone who doesn't have a manual only has a Demo copy rather than a pirated copy.

Compare what I said in italic and what you said in italic.

Epaminondas said:
If anything, that shows that a lot of people do agree with me in feeling that there is a problem with the base human commander or hero HPs.

If anything, that shows that a lot of people do disagree with you in feeling that there is a problem with the base human commnder or hero HPs...

All this means is that there is much debate on the subject. Just because a lot of people discuss something it doesn't mean they think one way or another about it, just that they think about it.

[Forrest]

A little common sense please!

If I want to play giants I play giants. If I want to play munchkins I play munchkins. If I want sea I don't play land.

Each makes for a totaly different playing style. That is what makes this game great.

If you want a mighty commander than give him toys. If you don't like the toys then you can mod some. What more do you want?

[Turin]

I don´t think anyone wants humans to be giants. The problem is simply that most human thuggie heroes are practically basic commanders with a trivial stat increase.

Take marius lorca for example:
Unmodded he is an 80gp Emerald lod with +1 hp +1 str +1 att, +1 def, +2 morale, + 2 ap and one less encumbrance.
A recruitable emerald lord with 2 stars of experience is a better fighter than marius, who is supposed to be a living legend.

Shouldn´t a living legend excel the run of the mill recruitables a little bit?

[Hullu]

One thing popped to mind.

If it's 'unrealistic' or whatever that human heroes have more hp.

How is it not unrealistic if they get it from a heroic ability?

Why can't our HEROES have more than average hp, if our HEROES can?

[Action]

Hullu said:
One thing popped to mind.

If it's 'unrealistic' or whatever that human heroes have more hp.

How is it not unrealistic if they get it from a heroic ability?

Why can't our HEROES have more than average hp, if our HEROES can?

Yah, this is the point I get stuck on too.

An Emerald Lord or something who gets unequaled obesity or the other HP boosting heroic ability and hangs around in the hall of fame for a while can gain a decent cushion of HP and will indeed survive hits that would kill a normal man.

If he can do it, why can't some of the national heroes do it? Why is it that the only way to get that HP up is via a random ability?

[PvK]

Turin said:
I don´t think anyone wants humans to be giants. The problem is simply that most human thuggie heroes are practically basic commanders with a trivial stat increase.

Take marius lorca for example:
Unmodded he is an 80gp Emerald lod with +1 hp +1 str +1 att, +1 def, +2 morale, + 2 ap and one less encumbrance.
A recruitable emerald lord with 2 stars of experience is a better fighter than marius, who is supposed to be a living legend.

Shouldn´t a living legend excel the run of the mill recruitables a little bit?

Yes, you're basically right - The way it currently works, many of the randomly-arriving heroes are just above-average and slightly unique. They only live up to their descriptions if they survive to get experience and items and/or heroic abilities or are made prophets or whatever.

I don't really see that as a big problem, though I think they could be several levels better in abilities like fighting skills without breaking balance. On the other hand, if the mundane heroes were to be given boosts so that they arrived much better than average commanders, I'd miss having the kind of heroes we have now - the "hero material" guys. Though those could be added too as regenerating heroes for all nations. Especially now that we can mod two types of those in for every nation...

As for Marius Lorca, just to annoyingly quibble about your example, he may not be much better than an Emerald Lord, but Emerald Lords are some of the best human melee foot commanders in the game, so adding a bunch of +1's to one of them is actually quite good from a mortal human perspective. Vanheim's Vanlade is even less impressive compared to typical Vans (he's about the same), though again, mounted Vans are some of the best mounter human combat commanders (and they have magic too).

PvK

[Endoperez]

PvK said:
As for Marius Lorca, just to annoyingly quibble about your example, he may not be much better than an Emerald Lord, but Emerald Lords are some of the best human melee foot commanders in the game, so adding a bunch of +1's to one of them is actually quite good from a mortal human perspective.

Marius Lorca is one of the few units in Dominions who has base Attack rating over 15. He has 16. Bane Lords, Scorpion Men, the Devourer of Souls, Devata, Dai Oni, one Heliophagus - 14. Firbolgs, Tartarians, at least 3 of the elemental royalty, Arch Devil, Abomination, angelic Seraph - 15. In a quick browse through the manual, I found only Wraith Consuls, Wraith Lords and the Ashen Angels (from Manifestation), and Horrors (from Send Horror). Horrors had attack 18, the three others had attack 16.

Marius Lorca is impossibly skilled - unfortunately, that doesn't help him to survive in battles. Not much. He'd need expensive equipment, and could still easily die. He'd be easy to kill as well, if he did survive to become enough of a threat.

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
They only live up to their descriptions if they survive to get experience and items and/or heroic abilities or are made prophets or whatever.

What items are you planning to give the Ulmish heroes so that they aren't killed by the first A2 mage they meet that casts lightning bolt twice? Melee commanders have nowhere near as much effect on the battlefield as the equivalent gold cost in mages, and that's part of the problem.

As for Marius Lorca, just to annoyingly quibble about your example, he may not be much better than an Emerald Lord, but Emerald Lords are some of the best human melee foot commanders in the game, so adding a bunch of +1's to one of them is actually quite good from a mortal human perspective.

The problem is that it's not good enough from a game mechanics standpoint. As a random guess, Emerald lords should probably have basic attack and defense stats of around 20 if you want to use them in a battle situation. This is necesary if you don't want them to die in the very first battle they ever see, especially with the extremely granular fatigue system that Dominions uses.

Vanheim's Vanlade is even less impressive compared to typical Vans (he's about the same), though again, mounted Vans are some of the best mounter human combat commanders (and they have magic too).

A basic van commander is about how powerful in combat without boosting spells or blesses as I would like to see most human commanders. Skilled enough to take on a dozen or so untrained or even well trained normal humans.