Thoughts on balancing MA Man

[Aezeal]

Is man so much weaker than say oceania?

[chrispedersen]

yes.

[Xietor]

Well,

Evilhomer has a very low opinion of Oceania as well, but he is spoiled by playing the ryleh all the time. I never play water races, so it is hard for me to compare a water race to a land race, except to say it is much safer typically to start in the water than on land.

But if you read my 1st post, i am careful to say, of the ma land races.

[Aezeal]

but does oceania have much MP wins?

the start of man isn't the problem either you said.. but I think oceania has a very hard time mid and end game.

[Xietor]

you and evilhomer may have to start a thread named, "Thoughts on balancing MA Oceania" then. don't hijack mine!

[JimMorrison]

I would agree that it makes sense to raise the age limit on crones. There is a definitive difference between old age, and degradation. In many mythologies, the old wizards, witches, crones, what have you are old - or even ancient. However, through the use of their magics, they are incredibly hearty and deceptively strong, with bodies that may seem shriveled and dying, but are still more capable than yours or mine.

It would seem that the point of the whole thing is that in this specific case especially, the nature magic was keeping their bodies from withering and decaying. It seems a bit silly in fact, to have a mostly nature based nation where the entire idea behind their mages is that they are very long lived because of their connection to nature, but still, they are on their last legs. I'm not saying it can't make sense either way, simply that since it CAN make sense either way, it's a viable area to remove one of the numerous weaknesses that plague the nation.

[Zeldor]

But they lived for 150-170 years! And they suddenly start dieing every 12 months when you recruit them. Massive extinction of them! And it really doesn't matter if they get N1 or N4. With N4 old age starts at 150 and the youngest one you will get will be 155 years old.

[Twan]

Aezeal said:
but does oceania have much MP wins?

I don't think the number of MP wins is relevant for most nations (I answer here but it's also an answer for some posts in new nations threads).

Many recorded games are newby games, and some of the best nations are only that good with heavy microgestion and fine knowledge of some game mechanics. An example of that are communions, national summons or magical economy based nations. Arco/Pythium without communions or correct management of them, Hinnom without a good microgestion of blood hunting to be able to pull the endgame summons, Oceania without a clam hoarding strategy, Utgard without a werewolves+shrouds based strategy, are all only average (under average for Oceania). Now with proper use of their strengths they are in the very powerful category IMO (perhaps not Oceania, but it is at least in the good half for long games).

The real umbalance is when a nation correctly played and with average start position always beat most others even if they are also correctly played and had same opportunities from start (or is beaten by most others like Man). And it's rare to have any MP with both equal skill players and equal start positions to be sure...

The things to search are : do one nation best strategy just make it as good as other nation using under average strategies or really gives it chances to win even against well played opposition ? is there any counter against one nation best strategy ? do nation A tend to win against nation B but is balanced because there is nation C in same age, and C usually beats A but can easily be beaten by B ? ...etc...

A little more work than saying "this nation is weak because it had no victory" (or the reverse).

[Xietor]

That is true to a degree, Twan, but many of the MP games had skilled players. And most of the games are not noobie games, so I think the Hall of fame is indicative as a guide of a nation's ability to win a mp game.

Though you are correct, it is not conclusive.

A better guide is the opinions of veteran players who have a thorough understanding of all the nations of the era, and who have competed in mp games against quality players of various nations.

[Aezeal]

Well that is what was said.. so why I returned it.