Some hints on MA R'yleh?

[JimMorrison]

Well I must admit that I find that somewhat odd though. Yes, it tends to be cold underwater..... But if Heat decreases income in the water, then the justification for that is actually totally backwards, IMO. It should be that Cold is worse underwater, because you're making it FROSTY down there, deep ocean can drop well below freezing without becoming ice because of the huge pressures involved. And on the flip side of the coin, added Heat would not make it HOT underwater, merely not extremely cold. If the original assertion is true, then I would argue that all aquatics should at least have a +1 Cold affinity. Otherwise for some reason we are saying they are perfectly at home with frigid living conditions underwater, yet suddenly when they go on land, the cold has detrimental effects.

It would probably be a complicated mechanic to code, but it would be interesting to see some Heat increase income underwater, but severely affect aquatics on land. By the same token, the aquatic races that are attenuated to living in frigid waters would find moving onto land easier in cold climes, but would be harmed by excess cold in their already naturally cold underwater homes.


The plot thickens!

Okay, I ran a test, it took some turns to get my nations to 3 Cold and 3 Heat with no unrest from events (I shoulda tossed in Luck to speed that up ), and here's what I found-

Oceania - 3 Cold - 28240 pop - 705 supplies - 338 income = 83.5 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even scale - 29700 pop - 884 supplies - 326 income = 91.1 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Heat - 29540 pop - 643 supplies - 324 income = 91.1 pop/gold


So at first glance, Cold actually looks like it's giving a 9% income boost (3% per scale?) while reducing supplies slightly. Heat on the other hand is not affecting income, but has a rather huge effect on supplies.

I might check it again later, but this is really weird results so far.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, results of the second test coming in now, to see the synergy of point spending. I did all 3 nations again, but Oceania got the Heat and Atlantis got the Cold this time. Everyone got 3 Order + 3 Growth (just checking straight income potential, not exploring other options for the points), and Oceania and Atlantis used their temp scales to buy 3 Prod as well (R'lyeh has 1 Prod). All 3 have a statue with Dom 5 to simplify that aspect.

Oceania - 3 Heat - 30010 pop - 902 supplies - 447 income = 67.1 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even - 30360 pop - 1260 supplies - 434 income = 69.9 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Cold - 29940 pop - 980 supplies - 485 income = 61.7 pop/gold


The numbers still seem to imply an income boost of about 3% per Cold scale, underwater, at least for aquatic nations. That's not confirmed by me with R'lyeh specifically, but if it's true with both the others.....

[chrispedersen]

Well, from the manual, p 51: suggests that eatch hot or cold decreases tax by 5% and supplies by 10%.

I think there is more scatter in the data, than you can accomodate.

Income is affected by type of fortress:
Kelp Cit = admin 40, at ma, oceania
Ramparts (Atlantis EA) = 15
Fortified City (Atlantis LA) =50
Dark cit =20 Ryallah

Basic Form = Pop/100 * Scale modifiers)* 1+fort/200, presuming no unrest.
I don't know your methodologies, but
if you had all neutral scales,


Case 1
Oceania Should be 338, without a hit for cold scales. And it is.
Ryalla Should be 326.7 Close enough.
Atlantis If early age, should be 318. If MA should be 354.
Actual is 324. so either +.5% or -8%.

Case 2:
Oceania, should be 457 Actual is 447. about -2%
R'lyeh , should be 424. Actual 434
Atlantis should be 456 Actual 485. about +6%


So, I don't think you can draw any conclusions. In the first case, oceania clearly did not take a hit from -3 cold. But no one took the expected 15% hit.

[JimMorrison]

(Edit: I swear I had tested the capital income before, though I didn't record the results at the time. I just did the test, so I retract my assertion about standardized home province income. )

[JimMorrison]

Well if anything, yes, it seems that the math is very misleading. The only thing that can be said for it is that the more water provinces there are, the more worthwhile it is to take Cold 3 as an aquatic, but probably not Heat. I may run a few turns into a game now, and see if R'lyeh takes the same encumbrance penalties that a non-aquatic does for Cold on land.


Edit ---

The test confirms that although income effects underwater are unpredictable, all units that are not CR WILL take an Enc hit in provinces that have Cold 3. The only unit that wasn't Encumbered was my Void Lord, who is 50% CR.

[chrispedersen]

Again Jim,
Thats why for me it matters a lot more who you are playing with.

I prefer pump almost every last farthing into unarmored illithid soldiers, who mind blast. Enc doesn't matter to them.

I set up in the back - and have very minimal meat shields.

[JimMorrison]

Indeed. I am pretty fond of the Meteorite Guards, because of their low gold cost. But with that heavy armor AND penalties from cold, it starts to become a logistical problem to exploit those heavy infantry.

Though if you only took Cold 2, you won't get so much an income penalty on land, and you won't get the Enc penalty on any of your troops. I need to play around more with pretender creation, see which style I am happiest with.