OT: US Pres election

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Bush shouldn't become the scape goat for the fools who are really to blame. Most of which were fired and hired in 06. Those are the real asshats that are behind this. Bush has had no real power since 06.

So he shouldn't be blamed that/because he had no real power?

I don't even know about the power thing. I mean, I see that man as incompetent and always mostly saw him as kind of a puppet from the start, yes. But for others, I'd think he just wasn't as prominently visible in the media, and thus less present.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

And that's what, I'd assume, will unfortunately be the perception about the next president and his party, whoever it may be. "Usurper, he was good for nothing, he raised our taxes!" It's bad if people don't understand that it is necessary and the carefree living that they had before wasn't really viable and showed its ugly downside in the end.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Let's face facts, America right now is weak. We face a crumbling economy, federal debts that won't be paid off for another century (counting only principle) a corrupt government, a divided nation against itself, China is only getting stronger, the russian military has reconstituted itself but couldn't find its missing nukes if their lives depended on it, we can't scare north korea, the UN is crippled by an outdated cold-war setup , and a global energy and climate crisis.

Well, regardless what you do, you won't solve the climate crisis now even if you tried with all your might, you can only adapt and I hope that America will, same for global energy. As for North Korea, I see that one as a paper tiger. If there is one land that has hit rock bottom except Africa, then it's North Korea, I'd say, at least for the people that live there. I don't think they'll have the breath to continue like this that much longer.

[Atrocities]

I am willing to bet that North Korea is about to lift the current and join the world. They have nothing to loose and everything to gain. I hope North Korea announces today that they willing to work with everyone in putting the cold war to bed.

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power. I do believe that he aloud himself to be manipulated and played and in turn was used as a tool to benefit people like Cheyenne and that bastard Dumbsfield.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power.

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

As to the Iraq war, we were sold a bill of goods that wasn't true. History cannot be undone, only learned from. And I would like to think that by fighting this battle now, we saved our children from having to fighter it at a much higher cost in the future. Does that make it right, no, we were misled and although I don't personally believe that Bush knew the extent of the lies, I do believe that he should share in some of the blame for what happened. However PBS has a Front Line episode that explains why the war went south when it became a policing effort following the end of mission accomplished.

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold. It makes me very sick to think, however, that many innocent people were harmed, killed, and jailed because of our failure to anticipate the reality of what it was we chose to do. My God have mercy on us for that horrific blunder that cost so many lives. Our troops are doing good in Iraq, my nephew is there and he and his fellow soldiers having nothing but good things to say about the progress going on in Iraq now following the surge.

While the road to a better Iraq has been a bloody one, with Gods will and the work of good people, Iraq will, as we are seeing now, recover and prosper. I don't blame Bush for the failures in Iraq, I blame that on the murdering SOB terrorists, Dick Cheney, and Ronald Dumbsfield. Firing that prick was the best thing Bush has done to date. If anything, Bush's greatest failure was in not firing that SOB sooner.

Obama has the potential of becoming a great leader, I just genuinely pray that he does so without abrogating our constitutional rights.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

It is also one of the biggest limitations, if not the biggest that I know of, of those constitutional rights that you seemed to be so aware of. Does it only take some nicely packaged words to sway your principles?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

So you come across as somebody who is totally unprotected against manipulation by the media. Maybe a simplistic black and white view on things, too, but I don't want to exaggerate too much into this.

If you say that Saddam was perceived as a real threat, when what did that threat look like? This is mostly a rhetoric question, but think about it and tell how Saddam could have been a threat to the US. Limited range of missiles is only the beginning - I'm at a loss if I want to imagine how some backwater country is fighting a numerically and technologically vastly superior superpower, especially getting at their grounds and gaining anything from it in the mid to long term. If a cold war Soviet Union failed against the United States, how could the Iraq have succeeded? Unknown super weapons? Secret Moon Bases? I admit, I'm getting polemical.

One thing that I don't want to touch again is that there was absolutely no link at all from 9/11 to Saddam. Was it just that the time was right?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold.

I dislike this altruistic perception of the USA as a worldwide police force. I simply cannot keep up this image in my mind anymore. There are dozens of warlords in Africa that committed and still commit far greater atrocities than Saddam ever did, and they're still alive, they're still doing this. Why doesn't the self-declared peace force get to work there? And as I said earlier, I am quite uncertain if the quality of live in Iraq has really improved and if you can call it "prospering" now. Maybe in the long term. Much later.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

It is also one of the biggest limitations, if not the biggest that I know of, of those constitutional rights that you seemed to be so aware of. Does it only take some nicely packaged words to sway your principles?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

So you come across as somebody who is totally unprotected against manipulation by the media. Maybe a simplistic black and white view on things, too, but I don't want to exaggerate too much into this.

I am sorry but this comment of yours seems to be on the verge of some sort of unwarranted personal attack. Is that your intent here?

If you say that Saddam was perceived as a real threat, when what did that threat look like? This is mostly a rhetoric question, but think about it and tell how Saddam could have been a threat to the US.

I can only reiterate what was in the media at the time. So I cannot add much to this other than that. I would point out that a bunch of dudes living in mud huts managed to take down four planes, two buildings, and punch a hole in the Pentagon. Saddam, with much more resources at this disposal, could, and at the time was believed to be a threat. Again, we were wrong.

One thing that I don't want to touch again is that there was absolutely no link at all from 9/11 to Saddam. Was it just that the time was right?

These are the facts and they cannot be denied.

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold.

I dislike this altruistic perception of the USA as a worldwide police force. I simply cannot keep up this image in my mind anymore. There are dozens of warlords in Africa that committed and still commit far greater atrocities than Saddam ever did, and they're still alive, they're still doing this. Why doesn't the self-declared peace force get to work there? And as I said earlier, I am quite uncertain if the quality of live in Iraq has really improved and if you can call it "prospering" now.

I cannot dispute your comments here as they are true. There are far worse SOB's than Saddam and there is no excuse for any civilized nation to allow them to continue to reap horrors upon innocent people.

As to your uncertainty about the quality of life in Iraq, I can only repeat what I have been told by my nephew who was their. I have no reason to doubt him or his word. But I concede your point, until the mainstream media gets off its collective arses and finally gets down to doing some real unbiased reporting, we will not know the truth about Iraq's alleged prosperity.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I am sorry but this comment of yours seems to be on the verge of some sort of unwarranted personal attack. Is that your intent here?

I was only hinting at it by my "I admit I'm getting polemical" sentence earlier, but to get this straight across, no, I am not interested in attacking you personally. I mostly want to get you to think. I am not somebody who is reasonably convinced by conspiracy theories, but at the same time I don't trust the media or politicians too much. I still hope that I can come to my own conclusions about things, and I hope that they're right. Better than just letting others do the thinking for me and adopt their position undigested.

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I can only reiterate what was in the media at the time. So I cannot add much to this other than that. I would point out that a bunch of dudes living in mud huts managed to take down four planes, two buildings, and punch a hole in the Pentagon.

Something that, and here unfortunately I might come across as a heretic in a medieval "there is only one truth, and it's our truth, no questions" society, is still disputed territory. As far as I know, the FBI still did not find any direct link of the 9/11 suicide bombers and Bin Laden. Except some videos with muffled voices. You get lots of those after each of these kinds of attacks, I guess. I remember that I defaced my own websites some years ago for a week or so. A few weeks later, I found a russian cracker site on the web that claimed that they hacked my site and defaced it. :P