Official Vanilla vs CBM debate thread

[GrudgeBringer]

I have played both and enjoy both, but you BETTER know the differences (other than Pretender design etc) before you get to the mid-game portion or you will be in for a shock.

I would really like to see a comparison between them lined up next to each other (and I suspect a lot of other players noob and vets alike would also).

I know there are a ton of different threads but I really don't have the time to chase them down, and then sift thru opinions. I would love to see someone with the knowledge just put up the differences side by side.

Might be a pretty big task and too much to ask.

[RadicalTurnip]

I haven't played CBM, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

I feel like Vanilla is more thematic and "realistic" if there were such a world as this (based on mythological descriptions and things) where CBM tries to balance the gameplay by making more options viable.

Still not sure why GoR in CBM is so cheap, though (as everyone seems to use it, a lot).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by RadicalTurnip

I haven't played CBM, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

I feel like Vanilla is more thematic and "realistic" if there were such a world as this (based on mythological descriptions and things) where CBM tries to balance the gameplay by making more options viable.

Still not sure why GoR in CBM is so cheap, though (as everyone seems to use it, a lot).

I'm not even sure what 'realistic' means in this context. As long as things follow rules, they're equally good fantasy.

GoR is cheap to encourage people to use it on things other than tarts. Its still too expensive (and tarts are still too cheap).

[RadicalTurnip]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'm not even sure what 'realistic' means in this context. As long as things follow rules, they're equally good fantasy.

What I mean is there are reasons not all magic is the same, Haruspex isn't in the same school as Dark Knowledge, and it costs 1 less gem, but requries one higher path. The game isn't made to be "completely balanced."

In a high-magic fantasy world with intelligent smiths and spell-makers, there's a good chance people would find ways of creating things that generate quintessential magic items (gem-gen). While it's not certain, but it's likely.

Basically, to me, CBM seems to be a (Conceptual) Balance Mod, while the original game's focus is more toward flavor (while of course trying to keep it from being overly unbalanced).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by RadicalTurnip

What I mean is there are reasons not all magic is the same, Haruspex isn't in the same school as Dark Knowledge, and it costs 1 less gem, but requries one higher path. The game isn't made to be "completely balanced."

Trade ease of casting with cost? Sounds perfectly reasonable and plausibly balanced.

In a high-magic fantasy world with intelligent smiths and spell-makers, there's a good chance people would find ways of creating things that generate quintessential magic items (gem-gen). While it's not certain, but it's likely.

That depends on what the laws of magic are. If the laws of magic make it impossible, it can't be done. It feels like an artifact level of accomplishment - distilling raw magic should be *hard*. The accomplishment is cheapened considerably if you have hundreds of them.

Basically, to me, CBM seems to be a (Conceptual) Balance Mod, while the original game's focus is more toward flavor (while of course trying to keep it from being overly unbalanced).

Where does CBM ever lose flavor? Heck, how do you 'lose flavor'? Flavor is whatever you make it. Anything can be justified post hoc, and if the person telling the story is good, it'll sound just as good or better as whatever flavor might have been trampled on to get there.

There are plenty of things in the base game that don't make sense conceptually. A lot of the handling of resources is confused, for example. So claiming vanilla as a paragon of flavor is doomed to failure.

[RadicalTurnip]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Where does CBM ever lose flavor? Heck, how do you 'lose flavor'? Flavor is whatever you make it. Anything can be justified post hoc, and if the person telling the story is good, it'll sound just as good or better as whatever flavor might have been trampled on to get there.

There are plenty of things in the base game that don't make sense conceptually. A lot of the handling of resources is confused, for example. So claiming vanilla as a paragon of flavor is doomed to failure.

I wasn't necessarily saying that CBM does lose flavor, I was saying that the focus of CBM is balance, while the focus of vanilla is flavor. Obviously, CBM is based on Vanilla, so a lot of the flavor of the original is retained. As I previously stated, I haven't played with CBM, so I don't know how much (if any) of the flavor is lost.

[lch]

A couple of years ago when I started playing, I preferred to play vanilla Dom3 instead of CBM because the mod itself was changing a lot in a short time intervals, giving highlight to different new strategies without much use of anybody who knew about them, other than people who spent the time to find out about those or talked to qm. Which I sarcastically remarked upon at the time by saying "CBM is qm's tool to win that many games", as he was or is one of the top Dom3 Multiplayer veterans against whom other people regularly gang upon (and still get beaten up). The biggest problem was that there were no references for important things like lists with the magical items and other documentation, so it was difficult to plan ahead.

It is my understanding that nowadays most of the drastic changes of the past have been removed and CBM is "mostly like vanilla", and there is a great amount of CBM-specific documentation and even a few guides written especially for nations in CBM games, so outside the realm of personal preference I see no reason for not using CBM in Dom3 multiplayer games.