Counter-Battery Process?

[Wdll]

I have to say, as the current system is, I find myself never using off-board artillery. If one side has any artillery which is longer range than the other, it's game over. (not really, but you know what I mean)

I wish there was some bonus or way of having some chance of CB even when you are out ranged, at least for 10-20 range units. I know, not exactly realistic but IMO it would help.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Wdll

I have to say, as the current system is, I find myself never using off-board artillery. If one side has any artillery which is longer range than the other, it's game over. (not really, but you know what I mean)

I wish there was some bonus or way of having some chance of CB even when you are out ranged, at least for 10-20 range units. I know, not exactly realistic but IMO it would help.

I, on the other hand always have a battery of off-board artillery in my core for campaigns that's used strictly for counter-battery.
Any artillery I buy with support points I use for other stuff.

This is because I tend play battalion size battles and the AI thinks one artillery battalion (regiment if assaulting) per maneuver battalion is typical so I NEED counter-battery or the AI will destroy my forces with artillery alone.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

I, on the other hand always have a battery of off-board artillery in my core for campaigns that's used strictly for counter-battery.
Any artillery I buy with support points I use for other stuff.

This is because I tend play battalion size battles and the AI thinks one artillery battalion (regiment if assaulting) per maneuver battalion is typical so I NEED counter-battery or the AI will destroy my forces with artillery alone.

Perhaps you didn't get what I was saying. It's not how much you buy, it's that if the other side has artillery with greater range (opponent has range 217 you have 207) you are screwed. He/she can use the artillery without fear for the duration of the battle/campaign.

[EOT]

Yes, I totally agree with you!!
The nation I use doesn't have any O/M rockets

1)Maybe a new Counter-Battery rule/calculation could be that your O/M arty cannot automatically/pass to do a CB mission for at least three turns after they have been assigned a fire/smoke support on map. Maybe it's already in the calculation just not enough of a delay?

2)Can an air strike package target O/M arty? That could be another way of suppressing O/M arty. This could be an assigned mission or happened automatically with a new class of aircraft or with a modified SEAD aircraft.

What do think of these mods to counter-battery? Have these ideas been floated around?

Thanks for replying!! I would have never of thought of these possible ideas/solutions

Thanks in advance!!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It was only a matter of time for a topic so near and dear to my heart (OK, other ones are too.) to be out there and not deserve my one cent (Tough times you know.). Never said I was a tech on the internal software settings of how the game works but from my layman's position and game play against the AI it seems to me that the whole discussion on CB ranges is irrelevant for off map artillery except where it might apply to on map targets or targeting which are different concepts in general.
1. The assumption is made that off map arty then is placed at the extreme edge of it's range therefore it cannot be counter battery fired on by tubes of a lesser range from your opponent, AI or you firing at them because x-arty has a better range then y-arty. Well I guess my 155mm current Thai units must be hitting someone else's 122mm and larger caliber tubes then the AI Chinese opponents they thought they where conducting CB fire missions on. By the same token in the past I've had to make up my losses in my arty units to the same issue of losing them to CB fire to include on one rare occasion from a 105mm Battery, now that's embarrassing because 98% of the time all I use is 155mm or close equivalent depending on the country I'm playing. So if range mattered how can this happen, unless I'm playing a Secret Squirrel version of the game such as TSO 5.5 Rev. A-CB?

2. Arty is generally based on Intelligence, Mission, Support, Target, Targeting, CB and Area Denial (To include AA assets etc.) and or Protection.

3. CB has been around for a couple of hundred years now but saw it's more modern foundation laid in the Civil War with the introduction of the rifled cannon, and has grown only more effective as we "progressed" through WWI and WWII. It pains me to say this but many of the modern tactics used today came from the tactics used by the USMC in the Korean War especially in the defense of the Pusan Perimeter where the targeting grid system was developed, more effective tactics in the use of overlapping fires, CB and the more proficient use of offensive tactical and strategic fire movement techniques.

4. This was discussed in great detail a couple of year ago and provides many official references on the topic that might well be worth a look especially for the newer folks looking in here, I had so much fun with that one.

5. I guess I'll never play anyone in a PBEM game I suppose, the reality is if your playing to keep things at a realistic level all elements of the game should be allowed. I guess you could limit things by points, but I still like that "Oh crap where did that come from..." factor the AI still gives at times! And as I've said, though I spend a lot of my time dealing with them but, this is more then a tank game to me, there's enough of them already on the net this certainly doesn't fit that category or else I suspect many like myself wouldn't spend all the time we do with the game other then not playing it as much as we might like to.

6. The above of course was just my opion and like an ... everyone has one. I'll leave you with some food for thought from the USA below and a gift for the CORPS. I need some sleep it's been a tough week.

7. Get past the ref. and read from the source document I think the man is qualified on the topic as taught at Ft. Sill which by way of reminder is the home of "The King of the Battlefield" for the USA and good read on doctrine. The next again is for the CORPS (And everyone else to!) out there with a little CCR to make things right with the world.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Target...e.-a0213232140
http://www.12thmarineartilleryregime...Battery-A.html

See Thread CM arty modeling by IMP, thread page #5 top currently it again is worth while as the refs cover this and other arty issues as well. Also another thread was actually posted a couple of years before this one under a slightly different name.

Regards,
Pat

P.S.
What does the fact that one of these is displayed proudly on my desk and not a sub, John Denvers dad is at the very start and Jimmy Stewart at the end, nothing we or the "enemy" had could catch or shoot at it in it's beginning have to do with this? Nothing I just find it cool and rerelaxing after all it's now "Just another day"-enjoy! And we all just need to BREATHE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx-uZZVc0dE
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Sorry-the thread topic mentioned by #4 indirectly and at bottom CM ARTY... of the previous post is located in the TO&E section. My apologies for the over sight.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

7. The next again is for the CORPS (And everyone else to!) out there with a little CCR to make things right with the world.
http://www.12thmarineartilleryregime...Battery-A.html

The M107 (using the M113 175mm gun) and M110 (using the M201 203mm howitzer) SP artillery both use the same chassis it's merely a matter of which gun (175 or 203) is mounted on it. For practical reasons a given battery will generally stick to one tube or the other.

The last M110 was phased out of USMC inventory in 1991 (they did not participate in Gulf I) as were the reserve M113 gun tubes (last used actively c.a. 1978).

All that said

Hard to beat 175's for counter-battery (at least till the advent of rocket assisted shells), then again that's specifically what they were designed for.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

1. The assumption is made that off map arty then is placed at the extreme edge of it's range therefore it cannot be counter battery fired on by tubes of a lesser range from your opponent, AI or you firing at them because x-arty has a better range then y-arty. Well I guess my 155mm current Thai units must be hitting someone else's 122mm and larger caliber tubes then the AI Chinese opponents they thought they where conducting CB fire missions on. By the same token in the past I've had to make up my losses in my arty units to the same issue of losing them to CB fire to include on one rare occasion from a 105mm Battery, now that's embarrassing because 98% of the time all I use is 155mm or close equivalent depending on the country I'm playing. So if range mattered how can this happen, unless I'm playing a Secret Squirrel version of the game such as TSO 5.5 Rev. A-CB?

This is a bit difficult to comment on without knowing the specifics, like which 122 mm and 155 mm tubes are in question? There are a number of different guns of those calibers available, with varying ranges.

Even the humble 105 mm pieces come in a number of variants, with differing ranges. For example South African OOB has one with game range of 220. That OOB has also a number of other weapons with quite impressive ranges, even their 120 mm mortars have a range of 205, and some of their 155 mm guns have range of 242!

[gila]

This could all be explained and rationalized easliy,on the size map being used.

Bigger maps need the longer range O/M arty, smaller maps less so perhaps?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

All I can say is that I prefer to use 155mm arty across any number of countries that have it available and have successfully CB'd the likes of Russia, China, N. Korea, France and others with modern arty systems of larger caliber. I've also never changed the map size, I play whatever is the standard sized map for a generated AI campaign. Again I'm not a tech just an operator. I don't know what more I can add but those are my AI game experiences for several years now with all patches added in the right sequence. Maybe it's that "evil" Windows 7!?! For me it's XP SP3 until support drops out which I heard MS was going to extend until maybe 2015 or just beyond. All I can say is it seems that it works fine to me, if anything maybe the AI should consider it more against off map arty. On map arty CB fire is pretty good as it sits and has no problem going after ALL arty types spotted on map, I've paid the price for not "Scootin" after "Shootin"!! This includes CB on enemy MRLS as well, with the favor returned as well.

Regards,
Pat