The Council of Wyrms

[The Panther]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
if shovah has not checked in with the council then I suggest we continue with business on schedule despite his absence

we where supposed to host yesterday, right?



For the first turn, I always cut people some slack. But once the game gets underway, I am more brutal about forcing stales for non-responders.

I know that I had originally planned on hosting MWF evenings. However, I already realize the problems in doing that. When I go out of town on weekends, I usually leave on Friday. In fact, I am leaving tomorrow to go visit my daughter at the University of Oklahoma and therefore can't host the game Friday evening. I will be back Sunday and can host Sunday evening.

I also notice that djo put a suggestion on the COW site about hosting TTS instead of MWF. This seems like the right answer to me. Therefore, the hosting will be Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday eveings about 8-9 PM Mountain time.

The next turn will host this evening whether or not I get the turn file from shovah.

[The Panther]

To all wyrms: Proposition 2 is open for voting over the next 24 hours.

[shovah]

i cant get the maofile to work

[The Panther]

Read the previous posts in this thread to see how to do that. Basically, you download the attached file from this thread, rename it properly, and put it in the dominions/mod directory. I can't send it to you right now because I am at work on my lunch break.

[shovah]

h8 to tell u but im not good with files+ cant find zen 5.1+ dont no what number to connect to +we have guests atm

[RonD]

shovah said:
h8 to tell u but im not good with files+ cant find zen 5.1+ dont no what number to connect to +we have guests atm



For the sake of simplicity, I'll just attach the correct mod file here. Right-click on the word "attachment" and choose Save As, or Save to disk, or whatever similar option your browser offers. Save it in the mods folder with the name *exactly* conceptbalance_complete_5_1.dm (you will have to remove the ".txt" from the end of the file - the forum won't accept an attachment that ends in .dm)

This is an email game, so there is no number to connect to.

Find your email from Panther with turn 1. Make a directory with any name you like for the game (I used CoW). Extract the files in Panther's email into that directory.

Start dom2 and play your turn. The game name will be whatever you named your directory.

Reply to Panther's email. Attach the mictlan.2h file from your game directory.

Your houseguests I cannot help with...

[shovah]

and the map...

[Ygorl]

It's Orania. It comes with the game. We're using a different .map file, but that doesn't matter except for the server.

[shovah]

this wil b alot of hassle all the emailing...

[Huntsman]

shovah said:
this wil b alot of hassle all the emailing...



A server game would be ideal but it's only 3 times a week that you need to do any mailing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[shovah]

but i am **** when it comes to files (too many files on my pc)

[The Panther]

Having done both, I can assure you that server games are a much bigger hassle for the players. PBEM games are quite easy to do, as that is how the game was designed to be played by the devs. PBEM games are a hassle only the host.

As for myself, I don't plan on playing another server game ever again.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:
Having done both, I can assure you that server games are a much bigger hassle for the players. PBEM games are quite easy to do, as that is how the game was designed to be played by the devs. PBEM games are a hassle only the host.




I've done both too and a properly set up server game is no more a hassle than a PBEM game, IMHO.

[Ygorl]

Shovah, you only need to take the one .trn file each turn and put it into the COW folder. Takes about fourteen seconds to uncompress and move, tops. Then, after you end your turn, take another six seconds to send The Panther your .h2 file. It adds a trivial amount of time to the process, and since you don't have to save all the .trn files (you can overwrite the old one with the new one) you don't even accumulate masses of files. In short, it's not a big deal.

[Morkilus]

Don't know if it will help, but I found Alneyan's multiplayer guide to be valuble for playing PBEM's. It seems alot simpler than server games to me, too. Here's the link:
web page (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=325347)

[Huntsman]

Morkilus said:
Don't know if it will help, but I found Alneyan's multiplayer guide to be valuble for playing PBEM's. It seems alot simpler than server games to me, too. Here's the link:
web page (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=325347)



Well, like I said, if you have a decent server op then it's a snap. The server's I've played on had their own notification scripts too which emailed everybody to tell them the new turn had hosted. Then all you had to do was load the game, take your turn, and exit. Doesn't get much easier than that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PBEM is easy too once you get the routine down.

[The Panther]

Actually, it is a lot more complicated than that, especially late game when turns can take an hour+ to do.

1. You must not accidently hit end turn when you first go into the server, or you will download a blank turn. If you are the last one to move, you have a stale. I can't possibly recall all the times this happened to me. You must always remember to hit the little "X" box instead of "End Turn".
2. You do your turn off-line and then you must upload it before the deadline. Since the deadline always changes (due to the fact that it is dependant on the last person who finished their turn), it can be hard to remember when the turn is due.
3. If you are the last to make your move, you frequently want to wait to the last minute so you do not get too much "time-creep". But if you wait too long, you have a stale.
4. And you need to check to see if there is a new turn up because the email notification does not always work correctly.
5. The ip address can change every time there is a crash.
6. The hosting deadlines can change significantly every time there is a crash.
7. Server games have been known to crash so bad that you cannot recover. This has happenned to me twice and to my son once. No PBEM game has ever went down this path for me.

Actually, most of these issues can be solved by a properly run server, which means NO QUICK HOST!!!! But the servers are rarely set up without the QH option.

I have had stales in EVERY SINGLE server game I have ever played. And I have had stales in EXACTLY ZERO PBEM games I have played. This is a lot of MP games for me (about 20, split approximately half server and half PBEM).

For the first 40 or so turns, both methods are about the same except that the server game can go a lot faster in most cases. But around turn 70 or so when the moves become very complicated and you have 100 messages to pour through, PBEM is far more flexible and forgiving, imho.

[Cainehill]

Which is why I'm rather fond of a server game using QH for the first 20 turns or so, then fixed hosting. As you say, it's nice to know when the turn is going to host, and not have to try and get the turn in at the last moment to keep it from creeping.

Oh, and I believe the server game can be set to automatically back up the game files before hosting, making it possible to recover from the corrupted game if need be.

[Huntsman]

Actually, most of these issues can be solved by a properly run server, which means NO QUICK HOST!!!!



Case closed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I could counter-point every single item on your list based on my personal experiences but you've already done that with your disclaimer quoted above. Really, it depends on the specific server and configuration settings. Making a blanket statement saying "all server games are horrendously inefficient and cumbersome!!" (in so many words) is rather unfair.

[The Panther]

Fellow wyrms, we have our first crisis.

shovah is obviously not going to make the first move. This leaves me with two options:
1. Host the turn and force a stale. He will likely become AI fairly soon and we will then have a 16 player game. The nations who started next to Mictlan will have a huge advantage, especially if they invade early and kill his pretender with wyrm power before his Smoking Mirror gets enough buffs to survive in a world full of powerful fighting pretenders.
2. Try to find a sub. This will be extremely difficult since he did not take a wyrm pretender and therefore has no vote in Council.
3. Recruit a new player and start the game over on Sunday or Monday. Let the new player make a new pretender for Mictlan.

One thing to note is that I will be out of town on a camping trip starting tomorrow. After tonight, I will be unable to do any hosting until I get back home on Sunday.

Opinions? Right now, I do not plan of hosting the turn unless there is an outcry demanding it.

[Ygorl]

If it's a short-term sub, wyrm or not shouldn't be a problem. Alneyan could maybe even do it real quick-like. Nothing of great consequence is going to happen in the first couple turns anyway.
Well, aside from my brilliantly appropriate Robert Frost quote... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
If it would be a longer-term sub, it might as well be a replacement, in which case it's not a big deal to wait for the new Mictlaner to put together a pretender and restart the game.

[djo]

What's shovah's intention? Does he have a specific problem he wants to solve, or does he want to bow out?

If he wants to solve whatever problem he's seeing, could he give a more detailed description of the problem? As in, several sentences (in the same post) telling us exactly what he tries and exactly what errors he sees? (Start with: are you running Windows? What files do you see in your "mods" and "maps" directories?)

I'd hate to have someone leave due to technical issues, but on the other hand, there has to be a lot of cooperation when solving these problems remotely.

If he's out, I vote for giving a permanent replacement a few days to submit a new pretender. Candidates might want to speak up now.

[PashaDawg]

I agree that we should give shovah a chance to express whether he is in or out of this game now that he knows that this is a play-by-email-game.

If shovah is out, then I suggest that we find a replacement, but also RESTART the game so that the replacement can design his/her own pretender. We have not even finished turn 1, so no big deal.

Pasha

[Huntsman]

PashaDawg said:
I agree that we should give shovah a chance to express whether he is in or out of this game now that he knows that this is a play-by-email-game.

If shovah is out, then I suggest that we find a replacement, but also RESTART the game so that the replacement can design his/her own pretender. We have not even finished turn 1, so no big deal.





I'm down with this.

Shovah, speak up, lad! Give us details.

[The Panther]

This morning, I resent him the turn file plus sent the mod file. He will have that when he gets home from school in England shortly.

I will be back Sunday. You folks can decide what to do while I am gone. If shovah decides to come alive, fine. If not, and we get a new player, then Alneyan has all the files for redoing the first turn, including loading the new pretender design on the COW site.

shovah - it's on you.

I tend to be quite intolerant of people who don't do what they say. I suppose that comes with age. Perhaps that was why I seemed a bit harsh on shovah in my post last night.

Panther

[Cainehill]

I'm with Panther - I mean, it was stated pretty early that it was going to be PBEM. And for someone to wait the week or two it took to get the game organized and started and then to start mentioning they're incompetent with files, don't like email, etc, etc....

Get a new player, I say.

[RonD]

Enjoy your trip.

I am also in favor of a restart, should shovah bow out.

[shovah]

im home, i havnt recieved anything in my email and i have tons of stuff comein out, if you want you could maybe give some1 control of me for first few turns and then make me ai as i have so much stuff to do now i probably wont have time (school tests, a few camps ect)

[Morkilus]

Ugh, I don't mind a restart so much, but I had a nice story about starting in "Silver Woods" instead of Vanheim. Better that we have dedicated players than my rambling prose, I spoze http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Huntsman]

Morkilus said:
Ugh, I don't mind a restart so much, but I had a nice story about starting in "Silver Woods" instead of Vanheim. Better that we have dedicated players than my rambling prose, I spoze http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Heh, I already wrote (and posted!) about my starting position. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Maybe I should put a more obvious link to it. Do we have a page for writing about each turn?

[Huntsman]

shovah said:
im home, i havnt recieved anything in my email and i have tons of stuff comein out, if you want you could maybe give some1 control of me for first few turns and then make me ai as i have so much stuff to do now i probably wont have time (school tests, a few camps ect)



We don't want an AI player so you're either in or we'll have to find a replacement.

[shovah]

replace me, sry

[Wish]

grumble grumble

[djo]

Huntsman said:
Do we have a page for writing about each turn?



We don't explicitly have one...I'd say, for now put it under a nation page (which some folks have already done). When I have time this weekend, I can maybe create a "Stories" page and link it on the front page.

Actually, anyone can do this if they want to. That's how wikis work!

[djo]

Since shovah has bowed out, mictlan is available. From page one:

> Alternates/subs ... YC puffyn boron Archaeolept Naresh

Anyone interested? Speaking only for myself, I'd give one of those folks priority, but anyone else is welcome to express interest.

See the link in my sig for details, if you don't already know them.

[RonD]

I went ahead and made a new post - as folks not in the game already may not read a thread once it says "Game started"

[The Panther]

I am in my daughters dorm at OU and was able to edit the post thread. I can check back in on Sunday when I take her back to the dorm to see if we have a new player.

[PashaDawg]

This is no biggie. At least it did not happen after the game really got cooking.

[Zooko]

If there's someone out there who wants to play but refuses to play Mictlan, I swap you -- I'll play Mictlan and you get Caelum.

[Cainehill]

Woot! If I didn't already have Abyssia, I'd take that deal! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[puffyn]

Okay, you win, twist my arm... er, necks?

Mictlan's fine with me if you want to keep Caelum, Zooko

(If I am Mictlan, I'd like to redesign to be a wyrm this time...)

[RonD]

Hurray for puffyn!

And yes, we assumed any new Mictlan would want their own pretender.

[Zooko]

I'm actually equally interested in Caelum and Mictlan. I'm quite interested in not delaying people, so let's stick with what we've got -- I am Sak Of The Raptors and you are Whazzname of the Mictlans.

[puffyn]

I am Apep of Mictlan. I've sent Panther my pretender, so hopefully he will be able to start the game up soon.

[Alneyan]

A friendly reminder: did you set a password on your Pretender? If you didn't, you may want to add one and send it back to Panther.

Panther should be back soon, so I would expect the game to start before long... Wait, I *am* the one starting the game. If you are reading this post soon after I've sent it, you should forward your Pretender to me Puffyn, and I will create the game right away (and forward the files to Panther).

[puffyn]

Alneyan:

I've taken to always setting passwords, so we should be good. I just sent you my pretender also, though at this point I fear we may have to wait until tomorrow for you to start things up...

Apep is a very patient wyrm.

[The Panther]

Hey - Thanks puffyn for filling in!

I will be heading to our nations capitol tomorrow for a 3 day business trip. I will be back on Wednesday night to host the second turn if everybody gets their first turn to me before then.

With any luck, I will host Turn 3 on Friday and Turn 4 on Sunday, which will then put us on a nice 3-turn per week schedule afterwards.

[The Panther]

Turns have been sent out. I hope I didnt make too many mistakes because I am in such a rush, heading to the airport and all this morn. I did have shoveh instead of Puffyn in my emails, but I did catch that and fixed it.

[Huntsman]

Ack! I liked my former location better. ANd now I have to change my whole turn 1 story! grrr

Other than that, thanks to Puffyn for filling in and thanks to everybody else for efforts made to keep this thing afloat. Let's get it on!

[Arralen]

The Panther said:
Turns have been sent out. I hope I didnt make too many mistakes because I am in such a rush, heading to the airport and all this morn. I did have shoveh instead of Puffyn in my emails, but I did catch that and fixed it.



Haven't received anything this time ... could you please check if you mailed it to me @gmx.net ?

arralen

edit: .. it's gmx o.c. ...

[djo]

Arralen, you're an "M", so I can forward it to you. (The M's are emailed together in one file.)

Hmm...the email Panther sent me showed you at gmx.net. Which is right? I'll check the Wyrms wiki. Heh, you didn't put your right domain in your call for help. And...aha...maybe your spam filter? Panther's most recent email had no subject line. I'll stick [Dom-cow] in (I usually use [CoW] personally). It'll be coming out of earthlink.net.

And while we're on the subject...puffyn, did you get your new turn 1? Panther's email showed what I don't think is your email address for Mictlan. It's not puff at gmail. I can forward your turn, too.

[puffyn]

Djo, I got a turn one with my god in it, if that's what you mean. Panther sent it separately. I think he should add a subject line like "CoW turn x" if it's not too much trouble.

And yes, it's not puff, it's puffyn, of course. Can't have four letter gmail account names anyhow.

[djo]

I suspect Panther was just overbusy before he left on his trip.

I was just being overly obscure with your email address.

[PashaDawg]

I figured out a sassy but simple workflow for sending out player turns by email with OS X (Tiger) for Mac, in case anybody wants it. It reduced my work by about 75% (me guessing without really measuring). It creates and addresses all of the emails with the correct attachments. All I need to do is add the date of the turn deadline and the turn number, which is very easy cutting and pasting. (It should be able to enter the date, etc., too, but I have not figured that out yet.)

Pasha

[The Panther]

Well, I am back.

But of course, there is a turn missing: Caelum, played by Zooko. Why am I not surprised? There is always one...

Anyway, I will wait until tomorrow to host, hoping I get the 17th turn file sent to me.

Panther

[Zooko]

Sorry about that folks.

[Huntsman]

Zooko said:
Sorry about that folks.



Off with his head, says I!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[djo]

PashaDawg said:
I figured out a sassy but simple workflow for sending out player turns by email with OS X (Tiger) for Mac, in case anybody wants it.



Could you post it or email me? I've done one for the player side, and I'm curious what you did for a host.

If I had infinite time, and a lot less RSI, I'd write a cross-platform, GUI Python application to manage PBEM. It'd make billions!

[Huntsman]

djo said:

PashaDawg said:
I figured out a sassy but simple workflow for sending out player turns by email with OS X (Tiger) for Mac, in case anybody wants it.



Could you post it or email me? I've done one for the player side, and I'm curious what you did for a host.

If I had infinite time, and a lot less RSI, I'd write a cross-platform, GUI Python application to manage PBEM. It'd make billions!



Hehe, I've had the thought 'cept I don't know Python. I figured it would be a fun way to learn it though.

[The Panther]

Turn 2 is out.
Deadline Sunday 8 PM MDT. We are now officially on our Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday schedule.

Also, we had our first wyrm death. Ermor took the big risk of attacking blind on Turn 1.

[Cainehill]

Heh. I noticed that. With the research setting we have, I might have waited a turn to pick a better target, especially with indies 8 and no one else likely to have research for expansion for at least another 2 or 3 turns.

Alas, poor wyrm - he ate something that disagreed with him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Huntsman]

Cainehill said:
Heh. I noticed that. With the research setting we have, I might have waited a turn to pick a better target, especially with indies 8 and no one else likely to have research for expansion for at least another 2 or 3 turns.

Alas, poor wyrm - he ate something that disagreed with him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I thought quantum was playing Ermor... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Going in on turn 0 was not that huge of a risk, worked in 9/10 test games. Scouting around would not have saved him, actually, he just had the extreme misfortune of getting a chest wound right out of the gate.

EDIT: And an unrest event to boot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Cainehill]

What'd he go up against though? Xbows, heavy cav/knights, or barbs? Had to get hit pretty hard to take a wound, I would think.

[quantum_mechani]

Cainehill said:
What'd he go up against though? Xbows, heavy cav/knights, or barbs? Had to get hit pretty hard to take a wound, I would think.

Yeah, it was a lance.

[Ygorl]

My people are experimenting with a new educational program; we call it "No Tuatha Left Behind".
Results are expected by year 75.

[Zooko]

The Harab Host, having driven out the despicable Arch-Seraphs, are now engaged in a peaceable program of research and development and giving orders to our troops in a timely manner.

Have a nice day!

[Morkilus]

quantum_mechani said:

Cainehill said:
What'd he go up against though? Xbows, heavy cav/knights, or barbs? Had to get hit pretty hard to take a wound, I would think.

Yeah, it was a lance.



Something must be done about this... an outrage! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[Huntsman]

Morkilus said:

quantum_mechani said:

Cainehill said:
What'd he go up against though? Xbows, heavy cav/knights, or barbs? Had to get hit pretty hard to take a wound, I would think.

Yeah, it was a lance.



Something must be done about this... an outrage! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif



I think we should make little rubber bracelets and sell em to raise funds and increase public awareness for the plight of the poor, godless souls of Ermor.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Wish]

I noticed Ermor got the mercs that month. if my SCs weren't so exxpensive I would have bid on them myself.

in all my trial runs with the settings, I found waiting a turn to scout was more effective than rushing in blindly. at least with inde strength set to 8.

[quantum_mechani]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:

in all my trial runs with the settings, I found waiting a turn to scout was more effective than rushing in blindly. at least with inde strength set to 8.

That is certainly true... if you don't start with body ethereal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cainehill]

quantum_mechani said:

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:

in all my trial runs with the settings, I found waiting a turn to scout was more effective than rushing in blindly. at least with inde strength set to 8.

That is certainly true... if you don't start with body ethereal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Normal research, I'd rush out on turn 1. But with very difficult, not many people can start taking provinces before turn 4 or later with their pretender, so waiting a turn doesn't significantly hurt. Losing your pretender on turn 1 though, with no priests to recall him, because you couldn't go for LI/HI instead of HC/knights? Priceless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Cainehill said:

quantum_mechani said:

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:

in all my trial runs with the settings, I found waiting a turn to scout was more effective than rushing in blindly. at least with inde strength set to 8.

That is certainly true... if you don't start with body ethereal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Normal research, I'd rush out on turn 1. But with very difficult, not many people can start taking provinces before turn 4 or later with their pretender, so waiting a turn doesn't significantly hurt. Losing your pretender on turn 1 though, with no priests to recall him, because you couldn't go for LI/HI instead of HC/knights? Priceless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

An extra province is an extra province, research does not really change the equation.

[Ygorl]

As an aside, where in Alaska?

[quantum_mechani]

Ygorl said:
As an aside, where in Alaska?

The Matanuska-Susitna Valley.

[The Panther]

I am missing the following turns:
Caelum
Ermor
Vanheim

[Wish]

Cainehill said:

quantum_mechani said:

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:

in all my trial runs with the settings, I found waiting a turn to scout was more effective than rushing in blindly. at least with inde strength set to 8.

That is certainly true... if you don't start with body ethereal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Normal research, I'd rush out on turn 1. But with very difficult, not many people can start taking provinces before turn 4 or later with their pretender, so waiting a turn doesn't significantly hurt. Losing your pretender on turn 1 though, with no priests to recall him, because you couldn't go for LI/HI instead of HC/knights? Priceless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



he can always prophet someone and have them start calling back. what would really suck is losing a pretender and a prophet on the second turn, with no priests to call back.

[Ygorl]

Now if you also lost your temple in an earthquake... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Quantum, that must be nice... My sister's up in Fairbanks, is why I asked.

[shovah]

losing pretender+prophet+temple early on has hjappened to me before, thank god(no pun intended) that you can make another prophet a few turns later (it was as mictain in single player this happened to me where it really hurt because all my mages were priest so i couldnt recruit any during the time)

[PashaDawg]

Fellow Wyrms!

There is a proposition still pending concerning the legality of lances. Only half of the Council has voted!

Lord Pasha of Ulm

[Wish]

which is one nay away from being veto'd

[The Panther]

It looks like we will be having 2 stales:

1. The wyrm-less nation of Ermor.
2. The absent wrym of Caelum.

I will be hosting about when game 2 of the world series ends.

Panther

[The Panther]

Turn 3 has hosted and all players got their moves done. It turns out that I had Zooko's file all along, but he is using some kind of totally weird mail format which threw me for a loop. Luckily, a simple renaming to caelum.2h worked just fine.

News:
1. At least two more wyrms died.
2. Seven nations took a province.
3. Lots of national troops died all over the place.
4. These settings are definitely the hardest I have ever played in an MP game.

Don't forget that you must announce when your wyrm has died and also when he is resurrected for voting purposes.

The next turn is due on Tuesday evening.

[Morkilus]

The wyrm Suli-Krom has taken a temporary leave of absence. The vanjarl Vile will take over administrative duties until further notice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Whollaborg]

Leviatan is temporaly in the pub. He shall be back.

[silhouette]

I, a lowly spectator, have a question for the Council (thought diminished in number may it not be so in wisdom). The Wiki rules section 16 specify stealthy actions as fair-game. But, if a stealthy intruder is accosted by province defence and is well equipped enough to win, is that considered a hostile (rogue-making) act, or would that takeover be considered like a 'revolt' case and not a cause for action? If it is considered a hostile act, then by whom, the stealthy actor who may just have been passing through, or the defenders who in a sense initiated the conflict?

Sill

[Ironhawk]

An excellent question. It would have to be considered a hostile act of the stealth actor since they are the one truly taking "action" in this sense. If it were any other way then you should just make stealth thugs and put them into enemy provinces until they get "caught". As for whether this makes you go rogue I couldnt say... its really a tough call.

[Cainehill]

I'd have to say it'd be a neutral act -- act of god, so to speak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Otherwise any number of scouting mechanisms are essentially unusable for fear of going rogue : Jotun scouts (which can easily win against low PD without being equipped), black servants, Pan's mages, and all of the stealthy unique demons / devils.

Edit : Hmm. Sneaking units supposedly don't get caught by PD less than 11, and I doubt the Jotun scout could win except against pitiful PD (Machaka perhaps). But the black servant, stealthy mages, and devils still could easily do so.

[shovah]

but what if someone tried to passa stealthy army (say villians) through nation A's province to preform an attack on nation:B's province and his army gets discovered while sneaking (but he had gotten a council ruling to attack nation b?)

[Morkilus]

I like to think "accidental" battles happened quite a bit in medieval times. IN any case, aren't spies and such considered to be not affiliated with the government proper? Perhaps they are part of an independent security contract. They are villains after all. However, Vanheim has no official say in this until its wyrm returns from its spiritual journey.

[thejeff]

If a spectator may offer a sugestion?

If you don't want to riak taking a province with a stealthy unit, simply set him to retreat.

Sure you'll lose him if discovered, unless on your own borders, but you can scout to your heart's content without fear of going rogue.

Actually reading the rules, any stealthy attack without permission is considered a violation. Taking the province is not necessary. Since the game considers catching a scout to be an attack on the province by the scout, the rules would have to be amended to allow non-attacking stealth units to be caught without consequences. Orders to retreat should be enough to signify non-hostile intent.

[RonD]

Being a wimpy little scout with no equipment ought to be another clue as to non-invasion intent.

However - assassination is explicitly allowed. An assassin can't very well be scripted to retreat, and might be equipped. If caught, and if strong enough to defeat the residents, that "legal" assassin could trigger a rouge declaration.

Perhaps a better solution: no one would be declared rogue after inadvertantly taking a province (by virtue of getting caught by patrols) IF they immediately allow the province to be retaken and repay any gold and gem income they obtained. Profuse apologies by fawning diplomats may also be required, at the discretion of the offended party.

[The Panther]

I had thought about this issue when I first wrote the game rules. Moving a stealthy army into enemy territory is not against any explicit rule as long as they do not actually attack a controlled province. Keep in mind that discovering a stealthy army is really an attack by the party which owns the province, not the stealthy party.

If a sleathy army gets caught and a battle ensues, that I believe it would fall on the involved parties to resolve it as best they can. Most likely, there would be a Council proposal (or even 2 proposals!) on how to handle the situation if the stealthy army were to win the battle. Surely a group of intelligent wyrms could decide such a wee issue, right?

With the right bribe to Ronan the Mighty Centaur-ruling Wyrm of Pangaea, I think ANY issue could be easily resolved in Council http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wish]

I agree with panther here. not hostile to be attacked by local defenses when minding your own business in a stealthy way. Should you win, I guess the wyrm losing the province should make a case why he deserves the province after his forces attacked the scout, who was not breaking any council rules by simply being stealthy.

my vote is certainly buyable as well.

Although I survived my turn two assault, I was not one of the lucky 7 :/

[The Panther]

Be sure and check out Proposition 4 on the subject of stealth.

[Reverend Zombie]

Prop 5 is open for voting as well.

[Wish]

prop 5 has already earned enough nays to be rejected

[The Panther]

I am missing turns from Ermor and Mictlan. Hosting will be in a couple of hours.

[The Panther]

Turn 4 has been sent out. No wryms showed up dead in the HoF this time. Several nations took a province. Man has 2 VPs. Lots more troops died.

Deadline is Thursday 8 PM MDT.

[Ironhawk]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
I agree with panther here. not hostile to be attacked by local defenses when minding your own business in a stealthy way. Should you win, I guess the wyrm losing the province should make a case why he deserves the province after his forces attacked the scout, who was not breaking any council rules by simply being stealthy.




The presumption in many of these posts is that the stealth actor is not being malicious. Consider the situation where nation A has a very valuable province which for one reason or another has not been castled. Nation B realizes this and *decks out* an assassin and just sits it in the valuable province until such time as it is eventually "accidentally" caught by nation A's PD. Nation A objects and nation B simply says that it was accidental, the assassin's target was elsewhere. Since no one can gainsay that claim, given the sentiment of the above posts, nation B would now have legitmate control of that province. Clearly an exploit but there is no game-enforcable way of detecting it.

[Ygorl]

Ironhawk, I think people were/are trying to encourage more interwyrm communication. While the tactic you mention may not be strictly against the rules, if it happened to me I would immediately throw a proposal before the council to let me retake the province and even exact a little punishment (one other province?) from the nasty naughy wyrm who'd done it. Anyone who voted yea would become my new best friend; I'd probably also threaten any nay-sayers with invasion by a dancing singing army of bards, as punishment for being so obviously biased and mean-spirited.

Incidentally, C'tis now has a prophet who's perfectly capable of doing exactly this. Let's see... How did Grundle vote on Proposition 4? Aha... "Nay!" I'm scared of my fellow 'Islander... Are you?

[Huntsman]

Ygorl said:
Ironhawk, I think people were/are trying to encourage more interwyrm communication. While the tactic you mention may not be strictly against the rules, if it happened to me I would immediately throw a proposal before the council to let me retake the province and even exact a little punishment (one other province?) from the nasty naughy wyrm who'd done it. Anyone who voted yea would become my new best friend; I'd probably also threaten any nay-sayers with invasion by a dancing singing army of bards, as punishment for being so obviously biased and mean-spirited.



INdeed, this is the whole point of being a Wyrm in this game, IMHO. We don't need more rules--just bring it to the council! The diplomacy should make the game more interesting.


Incidentally, C'tis now has a prophet who's perfectly capable of doing exactly this. Let's see... How did Grundle vote on Proposition 4? Aha... "Nay!" I'm scared of my fellow 'Islander... Are you?



Awww, he's not such a bad guy once you get to know him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Cainehill]

Also, seems that if assassinations are considered okay and legit, the war-spy stratagem certainly should be. I know I'd consider it just as much a declaration of war, if not more so, for someone to sit there assassinating my researchers, battle mages, prophet, etc, as for them to wait turn after turn for my PD to detect them.

In addition, there's a relatively simply defense : Leave PD at 9 (can't remember if PD has to be 10 or 11 to detect spies), and their stealth weapon won't ever be detected, thus can't take the province. Toss some regular troops & commanders in with the PD, and the province is just as strongly protected as if the PD was higher.

[Huntsman]

How does one get images to show on the wiki? It seems like the wiki has to host the images but that feature is disabled. Is there a way to link to an offsite file?

[The Panther]

While I was in favor of the spirit of Prop 4, I did not like how it specified exact penalties. I think it should be left up to the Council to decide penalties (if any). No way can all situations be covered with a single specific rule. This is why I took out the 3-day attack window clause that was present in Version 1 of the rules. It was too specific and would likely not apply in all situations. Let the Council decide instead.

Certainly, any nation which is taking provinces by stealthy means (per the Ironhawk scenario) would likely have to be quite persuasive in Council to avoid being severely punished. Maybe he is simply retailiating for excessive assassinations or excessive stealth preaching (or whatever). Perhaps he is doing it for a very sound reason. Again, how good a case can you make in Council? This is the key point in all of this. For sure, many votes can be bought anyways, just like has always been true since the dawn of democracy. Remember President Bush and his pledge to reduce taxes during the 2000 election? He certainly bought my vote with that one, for I pay a heck of a lot of excessive taxes to the crooks in Washington!

Per the Cainehill comment above: Of course an enemy who is endlessly assassinating your beloved commanders is pretty much a heavy-handed hostile move. Certainly the Council would look favorably upon a request to retaliate for such an action (unless you have pissed off too many wyrms prior to said incident). I even doubt it would take much bribing to win such a vote.

As for the rules, I tried to make it as simple as possible: Attacking a province controlled by another nation requres a Council ruling. All other things revolve around this basic idea.

This means Ghost Riders are out (I saw that Prop 5 failed very strongly so other wyrms are in agreement with me here). This means assassinations are in, since it is not an attack on an enemy province. This means you can't automatically fault a guy with a stealth unit getting caught and being attacked, for the stealthy unit is not attacking the enemy province. In the end analysis, all grey areas mean a Council decision.

In fact, after reading all the thoughtful posts here, I have come to the opinion that tactical use of stealth might just be much more powerful in this game than in most games under normal FFA rules. And this is not necessarily a bad thing.

[The Panther]

I have all turns except for Ermor and Caelum. Hosting deadline is in a couple of hours.

[The Panther]

Turn 5 is out.

Machaka took 2 provinces this turn. Obviously, us wyrms will have to watch that wayward dragon very, very closely. Perhaps Machaka is taking provinces for some lucky wyrms which started near the spiders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Man remains the only nation with 2 VPs.

[The Panther]

I have not received turns from the following nations:
Ctis
Ermor
Marignon

The deadline is 9 hours from now.

[The Panther]

NOTE:

The Atlantis turn file does not work. Please send in a fixed turn as soon as posible.

All other turns have been received.

Edit: I decided to wait for Whollaborg to resend the turn and try to see what the problem might be. If I receive a good Atlantis file overnight, I will host the game in the morning.

[PashaDawg]

Sometimes it helps to have the file sent as a zip when it does not work the first time. Don't ask me why.

[Arralen]

Has something to do with 8-to-7 bit conversion by email servers/relays. All of them know what a zip file is and handle it accordingly, but few of them know about DOM files .. and start strange conversions on them.

=> Better always zip up your files. Saves transfer volume, by the way ...

[Huntsman]

Bah. Both my PBEM's are behind schedule so now I have to actually work today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[PashaDawg]

For what it is worth, I don't like dealing with zip files as a PBEM host. It just adds more steps to my job. The screwed up turns happen quite infrequently.

[Morkilus]

Are we hosting turn 5 tomorrow night instead? No way I can get a turn 6 in by tomorrow night.

[The Panther]

I jst sent out the turns. There was a delay because my trial microsoft office package expired yesterday, throwing everything into chaos. I finally got it fixed.

The deadline for the next turn will be Thursday at 8 PM MST.

As for the current turn results, one more wyrm bit the dust, that being Kir'Dog of TC. If any other wyrms died who are not in the HoF, please remember to anounce the fact.

[The_Tauren13]

Kir'Doq felt it was getting a little too cold, so decided to take a nice warm vacation in hell.

[Wish]

what did him in?

[Huntsman]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
what did him in?



Probably a lance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[RonD]

Whatever it was, most of TC's troops went along for the ride.

[Wish]

I went up against lances this last turn, and I survived. I don't think they are our achilles heel... so to speak.

[The Panther]

I have received all turns. I will go ahead and host this morning. The normal deadline is Sunday evening, but we may be able to host before then if people get their turns done quickly.

[The Panther]

Turn 7 is out. No wyrms appeared to have died this time.

[The Panther]

All turns received except for Abysia. Deadline at 8 this evening.

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
All turns received except for Abysia. Deadline at 8 this evening.



Sending it again - had mailed it on Friday.

[The Panther]

You didn't get a returned mail message? I never did get your mail.

Anyway, Turn 8 has hosted and the (formerly) great wyrms of R'lyeh and Arcosephale have joined the growing list of dead pretenders.

Next turn due 8 PM MST on Tuesday.

[Wish]

looks like the secret to marignons army size: mercs.

[djo]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
looks like the secret to marignons army size: mercs.



Correction: the secret is turmoil 3/luck 3; that's how you afford the mercs.


With all those dead wyrms, it'd be a good time to push some through nasty legislation!

[Zooko]

I will Propose a Proposition.

[Zooko]

Is Kir'Doq of Tien Chi still dead?

[Zooko]

I see that Kir'Doq is recorded as having one death in the Pretender Builds section of the capitol, and is listed among the dead.

[The Panther]

A proposition is now open for voting.

[Wish]

I have put up a sister proposition to prop 6, for election of treasurer of council

[Cainehill]

Proposition 6 really needs a vote from C'tis or Man - a single "no" vote defeats 6 and 7.

[The Panther]

Cainehill said:

Proposition 6 really needs a vote from C'tis or Man - a single "no" vote defeats 6 and 7.



Actually, Proposition 7 is illegal, for it violates Rule 4 of the Wyrm's charter which requires a yes/no vote only.

Also, Proposition 6 was defeated 5-3 since votes must be recorded within 24 hours. Man and C'tis abstained for failure to vote (according to Rule 4).

I am missing turns from:
Arco
Ermor
Man

Deadline is in about 12 hours.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:

Cainehill said:

Proposition 6 really needs a vote from C'tis or Man - a single "no" vote defeats 6 and 7.



Actually, Proposition 7 is illegal, for it violates Rule 4 of the Wyrm's charter which requires a yes/no vote only.

Also, Proposition 6 was defeated 5-3 since votes must be recorded within 24 hours. Man and C'tis abstained for failure to vote (according to Rule 4).




I meant to go back and vote but forgot. After more thought on the subject I'd have voted No anyway.

[Ygorl]

Whoops. I was under the mistaken impression that we had until the turn hosted...
I was torn; my economy is not particularly strong, nor are my environs particularly rich, but at the same time I didn't want to be troubled with remembering to send in the 1 gold each turn.

[RonD]

The bombastic, reactionary views of my pretender aside, I never imagined the council as a charity for the less fortunate wyrms.

[Huntsman]

RonD said:
The bombastic, reactionary views of my pretender aside, I never imagined the council as a charity for the less fortunate wyrms.



Me neither but the concept is interesting and we need some more propositions!

[Ygorl]

We'll get propositions aplenty once we've all carved out our little nations, I imagine...

[Wish]

yes, more likely once we've built up, and independant provinces are hard to find, then the diplomacy will come in

[PashaDawg]

Would it make more sense to have a 48-hour voting period? 24 hours is barely any time to debate.

Pasha

[The Panther]

Turn 8 has hosted. No wryms in the HOF died. Next deadline is Thursday, 8 PM, MST.

Three nations now have 2 VPs (including yours truly - Ronan the all-mighty wyrm). I was very happy to see Man turn aside and take the safe route to not enter into what could have been a bloody wrym battle between Ygorl and Ronan (complete with a deadly roll of the ol' dice).

Two nations still have yet to take a province. Nobody can yet afford a second castle (now THERE'S a big surprise!).

[The Panther]

PashaDawg said:
Would it make more sense to have a 48-hour voting period? 24 hours is barely any time to debate.

Pasha



Put up a lawyerly type proposal and make a vote on it if you want. I did the 24 hours thing for two reasons:
1. There could be many proposals per turn later in the game needing decisive and frequent wyrm rulings.
2. With a proposal early on in the turn, you could force a vote result BEFORE you have to make another move IF you think it advantageous.

Also, note that there is a provision for a 48 hour vote on weekends and some holidays.

[Ygorl]

I didn't really want to risk seeing the deadliest wyrm in the world turn into one of the deadest. Leaving you your VP seemed the neighborly thing to do...
Cheers!

[Wish]

The Panther said:
Two nations still have yet to take a province. Nobody can yet afford a second castle (now THERE'S a big surprise!).



on the contrary, mine is just not yet complete being built.

[Morkilus]

I will either stale or have to have a sub for turns 11 and 12, possibly 13 (next Tues, Thurs.) Staling is probably fine since I need more money for a priest anyway. No way I can take a province without a wyrm (heavy infantry all around)

[The Panther]

You should try to find a sub. Perhaps Alneyan can do it, for he has the master password for the game and won't even need yours.

I imagine it will be very easy to give someone instructions about what to do while you are gone.

[The Panther]

I noticed this morning before I left for work that none of the four AE players have responded with 2h files as yet. While this is typical for Ermor and Abysia, it is more unusual for the other two A nations (Atlantis and Arco). Perhaps my COW AE email did not work or something got messed up. Also, I recall that Caelum has not yet responed and maybe one other player (also low in the alphabet) as well. All the COW M and COW RTUV players did respond. But this many non-responding players is a bit unusual when we are less than 12 hours from a hosting.

Question - Did the four players receive the AE turn files or not? If not, I can try to stop by my house at lunch today to resend it.

Panther

[Cainehill]

I got it, and my turn is on the way.

[Huntsman]

I just sent my turn.

[The Panther]

I am now missing only the following turns:
Arcosephale
Atlantis
Caelum

Hosting is about 4-5 hours from now.

[The Panther]

Turn 10 has been sent out. Deadline is Sunday 8 PM, MST. News:
1. Atlantis and Caelum staled, which are the first stales in the game.
2. Grundle of C'tis died.
3. Machaka has taken a third VP. Machaka also must have had a province revolt because they did not gain in the score graph despite taking the third VP.
4. Marignon now has the province lead over Machaka.

It is too bad that I did not start next to the spiders, for I would sure be wanting to annex all that nice territory with nothing but Machaka PD that has been cleared out by that wayward red dragon to the eventual benefit of some lucky wyrms.

[Ygorl]

There's a new proposition up. I think this one might even pass.

Too bad about the staling, and the further loss of Wyrm-life.

[Arralen]

The Panther said:
It is too bad that I did not start next to the spiders,



Very few spiders around.


for I would sure be wanting to annex all that nice territory with nothing but Machaka PD that has been cleared out



Have to eat. "Indies" taste well, roasted.


by that wayward red dragon to the eventual benefit of some lucky wyrms.



'wayward' as 'gruffy' or 'wayward' as 'ill-bred'?
Might run out of "Indies" one day ...
'take some time, though: too many wyrms feeding the worms already. Leaves many kingdoms to conquer.

Had proposition to make.

Not say more, spent words already.

Astairr

[RonD]

I voted against prop 9 for role-playing reasons - I think province numbers are for the players and that the wyrms know only province names.

[Arralen]

@RonD
.. you're talking about proposition 8, aren't you ?

[RonD]

Yep - I meant to say '8'

I am actually ignoring prop 9 for role-playing reasons. Nothing personal against you, Arralen. The dragon is not a member of the Council, so my wyrm will simply ignore your proposal.

[Zooko]

Sorry to stale. I'm travelling on business. Probably won't stale again.

[Huntsman]

Ack! Took a chance and paid the ultimate price. RIP Grundle! We'll get you back as soon as I can find some priestly types.... doh.

[Wish]

The Panther said:
Turn 10 has been sent out. Deadline is Sunday 8 PM, MST. News:
1. Atlantis and Caelum staled, which are the first stales in the game.
2. Grundle of C'tis died.
3. Machaka has taken a third VP. Machaka also must have had a province revolt because they did not gain in the score graph despite taking the third VP.
4. Marignon now has the province lead over Machaka.

It is too bad that I did not start next to the spiders, for I would sure be wanting to annex all that nice territory with nothing but Machaka PD that has been cleared out by that wayward red dragon to the eventual benefit of some lucky wyrms.



actually, C'Tis took one of machaka's provinces. I think this makes C'Tis rogue, since such an action requires council approval, even if the dragon has no vote, he is a member of the council.

[The Panther]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
actually, C'Tis took one of machaka's provinces. I think this makes C'Tis rogue, since such an action requires council approval, even if the dragon has no vote, he is a member of the council.



If this is true, then this will make the game VERY interesting in the near future...

I will wait for the wayward dragon to speak on the issue or make a proclamation in council before jumping to any hasty conclusions.

[Wish]

I saw it, turn 9 my new province neighbored the province once owned by machaka and now owned by C'Tis. with about 40 units of city guards and light infantries. Machaka had left the province, the pillar of the world, relatively undefended. I guess their militia downed grundle.

[RonD]

Rather unlikely that it was PD. Indeed, my wyrm had a dream that may have been a message from Grundle from beyond the grave. In it, Grundle was killed while attacking a province with longdead and 3 death mage commanders. The other province may (or may not) have been the one referred to on Grundle's blog page - which Machaka had taken right next to C'Tis and had agreed to pull back and cede to C'Tis. We likewise await word from Machaka on this matter.

In other news - it appears that B'ang!Pat'h's original lawyer (burp!) may have misinterpreted the charter to mean that non-wyrms were not members of the council. The current lawyer makes a good argument that the dragon is, indeed, allowed to speak, even though not allowed to vote. The new lawyer is a skinny stringbean of a human, and hardly worth the trouble to eat.

[Huntsman]

The noble dragon and I came to an agreement about the province in question. It was deemed unnecessary to involve the council in such a matter.

As to Grundle's untimely death, you'' be able to read all about it on the wiki soon enough--just clcik the "Ctis" link on the front page!

[Wish]

ah, well one could see how it could be percieved in such a way.

[RonD]

I have opened a new Proposition (#10). It would explicitly allow nations with dead wyrms to send a non-voting representative to the Council.

[The Panther]

Ronan notes that Propositions 8 and 9 have both failed. Perhaps proposition 10 will be the first one enacted.

Ronan also notes that in the Council discussions of Proposition 8, the nation of R'lyeh sent an Illithid in the guise of a wyrm to the council (was Ronan the only wyrm who saw through that clever disguise?). The wayward Illithid even voted, which is clearly a violation of wyrm authority. Proposition 10 would make it perfectly legal to send in a lesser being to plead before the mighty wyrms WITHOUT wearing a disguise.

I probably should have poisoned the thing during the meeting...

[Cainehill]

Dead Wyrms send non-wyrms to council meetings. We appreciate the ... appetizers, but I think they get eaten before they say much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously : I think that only living Wyrms should be able to speak in council. I'm willing to extend some leeway to the one dragon, mainly because he didn't design his own pretender, plus live dragons are hugely different from dead wyrms sending tiny minions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

It is, after all, a council of Wyrms. Not a council of the fleas hiding between the scales of dead Wyrms, such vermin not to be confused with .... Vyrmin. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Whollaborg]

Hello!
It's formerly dead Wyrm Leviatan speaking again. He's followers refused to give up when the news from the false prophet Nietzsche came and stated that our belowed Wyrm was dead, deceased, extinct and so forth as The Monty Python splendidly described the non existent function of living organism - who is Our GOD, by testimonial of the new prophet of the Atlantian race.
We shall contact the Council again when we have properly read the proposed Propositions.

[The_Tauren13]

The almighty Kir'Doq, disgusted with his pathetic followers' lack of discipline and progress in his absence, has decided to cut his vacation short.

[The Panther]

With about 24 hours until hosting, I am missing the following turns:
Ermor
Marignon
Pythium
Vanheim

Welcome back, Kir'Doq and Leviatan.

[The Panther]

Turn 11 has been sent out and nothing exciting happened.

Next deadline is Tuesday at 8 PM MST. Alneyan is filling in for the absent Vanheim this week.

[The Panther]

Turn 12 is out. Deadline is Thursday 8 PM, MST.

No wyrms in the HoF died this turn. Marignon continues his climb to the top of the province chart.

[The Panther]

With 3 hours to go, I am missing the following turns:
Arco
Caelum
Vanheim (from Alneyan)

[The Panther]

I delayed hosting until this morning and received all but 1 turn file: Caelum has staled.

Next turn is due Sunday 8 PM MST.

Also, I will be on vacation over the thanksgiving holidays (Tuesday-Sunday next week) and will likely not be able to host the game until I return on Sunday a week. If I could just find my DOM CD, I could install the game on my laptop and perhaps do better than this...

[djo]

I, for one, wouldn't mind a slower pace over the holidays, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

[RonD]

I will be away from Dom2 access from Thursday through late Sunday evening.

[Wish]

I to will be indisposed from wednesday through sunday

[Zooko]

Argh. I staled because I'm still travelling on business. I *almost* got around to it in time.

[Whollaborg]

Discussions about the prohecy of Nietzsche continue in the Atlantis once again. Is he the true prophet or not?

Is our god permanently dead as rumors of he's second passing circulate the Deep?

[Wish]

!!!

and hes immune to poison. I guess tritons aree the antiwyrm?

[Cainehill]

Hmm. I'm not sure that the "Current Events" section should really be informing everyone of things that they would have no knowledge of without having scouts in the area.

Color me slightly disgruntled - I don't recall anything in proposed rules & setup that indicated this would happen. And if everyone is going to get accurate information on where / how my nation got its second fort, seems they also ought to get accurate information on the "explosive growth" of my forces - blasted militia, not blood summonses.

[RonD]

Seems to me that anyone ought to be able to annouce anything they want. Some of it might even be true (and no, it was not me who posted the current events).

And - its a wiki. If you don't like it, edit it. Make it go away, if you like.

[quantum_mechani]

Zona Nyl has returned from his managerial tour of Hades.

[Huntsman]

RonD said:
Seems to me that anyone ought to be able to annouce anything they want. Some of it might even be true (and no, it was not me who posted the current events).

And - its a wiki. If you don't like it, edit it. Make it go away, if you like.



Hehe, indeed. If you "kill" the messenger the message shall disappear.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Arralen]

RonD said:
And - its a wiki. If you don't like it, edit it. Make it go away, if you like.



That would be very bad style, and defeat the whole purpose of the thing: I could go in and remove all council votings, change all treaties and tweak the rules (a real dragon is always chief of council because of it's inherent superiority) - thereby starting a nice editing war. And the game will go down about that.

I can't see that many 'hard facts' there besides that what the game tells us anyway. To make something at least somewhat useful from it, I would have to know either A) where Abysias or Mictlans home is or B) where Machaka met Mictlan. Ok, there must be a river somewhere. Might give me a vague clue about the location. Only if I had some scouts in the general area I could pin down things more, but then I would see the castle anyway, btw.

So I (the player - don't anyone mention the council in this regard!!!) vote for keeping the news&rumors for roleplaying reasons.

PS: If you find out something about your neighbours/potential enemies, why don't you add a appropiate rumour yourself? Hey, you don't need to find something, just come up with something nice&plausible !

[The Panther]

With 8 hours to go, I am missing:
Jotunheim
Vanheim

[Cainehill]

Arralen said:
So I (the player - don't anyone mention the council in this regard!!!) vote for keeping the news&rumors for roleplaying reasons.

PS: If you find out something about your neighbours/potential enemies, why don't you add a appropiate rumour yourself? Hey, you don't need to find something, just come up with something nice&plausible !



Which means that in the endgame, someone can post, "Peasants were startled to see the great Wyrm of Machaka in the province of Helm's Deep and cry out for a savior", thus making a target for Seeking Arrows & Ghost Riderings? Sure, the rumors might be bogus, just seeing if anyone would waste their gems, but still... I'm sure people will just love having their wyrm pick up a sucking chest wound, with not even the usual inkling of whom might have done it.

I can't say as I care much for the anonymous allegations and givings away of intelligence.

[Morkilus]

Helloooo... we are back, both me and my Wyrm. Not that we can do much but argue and make smack-talk... but here we are! Thanks to Alneyan for subbing for me. Not to sound flighty, but delaying hosting on Thursday until Sunday this week sounds good to me too...

[Huntsman]

Cainehill said:

Arralen said:
So I (the player - don't anyone mention the council in this regard!!!) vote for keeping the news&rumors for roleplaying reasons.

PS: If you find out something about your neighbours/potential enemies, why don't you add a appropiate rumour yourself? Hey, you don't need to find something, just come up with something nice&plausible !



Which means that in the endgame, someone can post, "Peasants were startled to see the great Wyrm of Machaka in the province of Helm's Deep and cry out for a savior", thus making a target for Seeking Arrows & Ghost Riderings? Sure, the rumors might be bogus, just seeing if anyone would waste their gems, but still... I'm sure people will just love having their wyrm pick up a sucking chest wound, with not even the usual inkling of whom might have done it.




How is this different from any other game?

[Cainehill]

Not too many other games I've played in have a site/board/wiki definately associated with them, where such rumors and innuendos can be and are published in the guise of "News" (Current events = news, to me.) Never seen anyone posting stuff like "Such-and-such a nation just found a fort via the Crystal Cathedral" here on the forums before that I can recall - but at least here it wouldn't be anonymous.

Frankly, that's what really chafes my scales - and when I saw it, my initial impression was that an outside arbiter (ie, someone not playing in the game) was using the master password to look over the game and post what he considered to be news worthy.

Which would have been an even bigger dose of crap than a player doing so - if there is an outsider posting stuff learned via the master password (that isn't directly related to, for instance, someone pretending their Wyrm is alive when it isn't in order to vote in council), then I'll be letting someone else take over my nation.

My reason for this is that I don't need a bloody "narrator" deciding what information to hand out for free to players, and what not to. And I'm not real happy about anonymous postings of said information either.

[Huntsman]

I agree that we don't need a 3rd-person POV "narrator". I was hoping each Wyrm would write up their own logs for RP value, without revealing too much intel and possibly doing some bluffing and starting rumors and such.

[RonD]

In fact, that particular Current event notice was posted by Arralen (Machaka) - something that took me all of 20 seconds to figure out.

In the end, though, I play the game for fun. I must have missed the post where prize money was announced.

[Ygorl]

I wonder if it would be possible to disable posting by anonymous folks on the wiki. That way, anyone who posts anything is accountable (as RonD knows, you can see who makes each edit by looking at the Recent Changes panel).
If someone is putting out too much information about you, you've got a few options... You can deny it, you can post information about them in revenge, you can wipe them off the planet so that they can no longer do the nasty things that they are doing, you can take steps to render the information they discover dated and useless... If you find that someone's using this information against you, you can even take advantage of it to lay traps and the like.
This game is a little different than most. There's much less potential to conduct all your operations in secrecy. With my proposition about revealing homelands, I was trying to level the playing field in this respect a bit... People didn't like the idea though. I think I'm running into the realm of rambling, now... Oh well. My point, if I have one, is something like this: there's more information available here than normal, and less value to it (because of the restrictions on how it can be used).
Really, I just hope I don't have to hunt down an image of chafed scales.
Cheers!

[Cainehill]

RonD said:
In fact, that particular Current event notice was posted by Arralen (Machaka) - something that took me all of 20 seconds to figure out.



Really? When I look at the Wiki via Recent Changes or History, the only changes I see attributed to a person were by Morkilus, way back on 28 October. All the more recent changes show an IP address, not a user. Personally I don't think I (or other players) should have to research what IP address goes to what country, and which players are from that country, in order to try and figure out something that took you all of 20 seconds.

Did it take you 20 seconds because you're a wiki expert (or have privileges that allow you to see the person who made changes)? Or because you recognized the IP addresses? Or because you're so familiar with Arralen's writing style? If it's the wiki expert, perhaps you'd share the setting which would let everyone see who makes the changes?


In the end, though, I play the game for fun. I must have missed the post where prize money was announced.



Ah, if something isn't for prize money you'd never find anything irritating and diminishing your fun? Someone taking 2 cards from the deck before you got into a game of gin rummy, or telling everyone else what letters you have when they happen to see your tiles when playing Scrabble?

Cool.

Myself, I get a little irritated when rules aren't made clear up front - and nothing that I read anywhere indicated that anonymous postings were going to be involved. Given that I don't care for anonymity, I possibly wouldn't have gotten involved had I known.

[RonD]

All I had to do was expand the recent changes page to show a longer list, then look to see what else that same IP had changed. Turned out to be a proposition vote by Machaka. Took 20 seconds.

Frankly, I only even bothered because I would have been upset if it had been a non-player. As long as it was a player then, to my mind, such postings and rumor-mongering is entirely within the spirit of this particular game.

And, no, I do not let little thinkgs like this spoil my fun. If it bothers me enough, then I maybe (or maybe not) say somthing about it. Then I play that game out to completion, and maybe avoid the same situation in the future. I play a lot of recreational soccer. Some guys, even in a 40+ league, just can't let anything go. I'm not that way. I don't let the little stuff get to me. {and this really is little stuff here}

[puffyn]

On the subject of anonymous posts: as wiki-keeper, I can trivially set it so that only registered people may post. I have never considered this necessary in the Yarnspinners 2 wiki, because it's typically pretty clear which of the other three regular contributors posted something if they forgot to log in, but it may be useful with this motley band.

The downside is a little more time spent logging in periodically, because the wiki likes to not store registration information for too long (at least in my experience), but since I typically want to not be anonymous anyways that's no big deal.

Of course, there is nothing to stop you from registering "AnonymousCoward" and posting whatever you like about your neighbors using that perfectly legitimate login name...

Since we haven't propositioned anything lately, let us now turn this signature debate to the wiki, where Proposition 11 will debut shortly.

[The Panther]

My two cents worth:

Since Arralen posted under an IP address instead of his own name, I would say he is perhaps setting Cainehill up for a nice, juicy proposal in Council. Though I do wonder how RonD figured out that the IP address of the post in question belonged to Arralen. Edit: I saw that Ron explained it in a post while I was writing this post.

Don't forget that in order to get the Council to vote in your favor, you must have decent supporting evidence (or at least claim to have evidence with a convincing argument). I see absolutely nothing wrong with posting the rumors, for that is what this game is all about.

In fact, this game is more open than usual. In a typical game, a neighbor would simply contact several neighbors around a "target" and tell things which may or may not be true. They would then form an alliance and try to wipe out the player who was likely just minding his own business. I myself have done this and similar things more than once. And I have even won a couple of MP games spreading rumors privately and such. It is all part of being an FFA game.

So, to answer the question from Huntsman, I would have to say this game differs from most games in that it is far more open and above-board than typical. Less secretive, so to speak.

Cainehill's explosive reaction has probably not made him many friends in Council...


PROPOSAL:
I now know where all 17 capitols are, thanks to my harpy scouts. Anybody who sends me 31 gold and 1 gem (of any type) within the next 3 turns will receive this information in a private email!

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
Cainehill's explosive reaction has probably not made him many friends in Council...




You mean, hasn't made me any friends amongst the players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ::shrug:: My "explosion" wasn't in reaction to what happened, which is relatively minor. (Just as my initial post about it was relatively mild.) But get me into a ... heated discussion, ne argument, and .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:.

So, to answer the question from Huntsman, I would have to say this game differs from most games in that it is far more open and above-board than typical. Less secretive, so to speak.




Perhaps. But the games I've played with the folks at QT3 have been similar to this one in that there's plenty of "open" chatter, be it fact or fiction, and there's also quite a bit of stuff going on behind the scenes. SO to me this is business as usual which is why I'm puzzled by Cainehill's reaction to the current events "spin".

The way I see it, Cainehill, it's all rumor until I can verify for myself anyway... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

BTW, did the game host? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[The Panther]

On the subject of hosting:

I did not host last night because I was still missing a turn file. Recall that I had delayed hosting last turn by 12 hours, so I decided to delay this time too. I will host today (probably at lunch time) whether I receive the Jontun turn or not.

Also, I will be leaving tomorrow to go on a camping trip to Arizona. I will return sometime over the weekend. There were several people in the game who are also going to be gone over the upcoming holidays. Thus, after I host today, the subsequent turn will host Sunday at 8 PM MST.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:

Also, I will be leaving tomorrow to go on a camping trip to Arizona.



Scorpions, tarantulas, and rattlers...oh my!
Scorpions, tarantulas, and rattlers...oh my!
Scorpions, tarantulas, and rattlers...oh my!
SCORPIONS, TARANTULAS, and RATTLERS...OH MY!

Don't forget the bug spray. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[The Panther]

Huntsman said:

Don't forget the bug spray. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif



Interesting that you mention this item. I have a humorous story on the subject.

About 10 years ago, I was playing golf on Prince Edward Island, Canada, in the middle of the summer. Those little biting flies were swarming all over the course. It was really tough to putt when your head and back were covered in bugs. I was complaining about it to my two playing partners, both of whom were locals.

The resulting conversation with one of the guys is something I will never forget. It went something like this:

"You said you were from New Mexico, right?"
"Yes."
"Don't you have scorpions and rattlesnakes?"
"Well, yes we do. I have seen a rattler on the course back home and many a scorpion in my back yard when I first moved into my house."
"And tarantulas too?"
"Oh yes, all the time! They like to cross the fairway near the lake on hole number 11 on the base course back home."
"Well, you can keep all those nasty things. I am perfectly content with my own insects here."
And as I slapped at yet another annoying fly, I replied, "OK, sounds good! You stay here with these flies and mosquitos and I will go back home to my snakes and scorpions and big spiders!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I always live in fear that the many people living in the eastern US will discover New Mexico and eventually innudate us with tons of people. We already have enough Californians moving in anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[RonD]

Although my wyrm abstained on prop 11, I would have no problem with changing the wiki to require loggin in.

[Wish]

sorry about the late 2h.

its funny you worry about californians. us californians are always complaining that all the freaks and weirdos from other states are inundating us...

you'll find native californians much less... stereotypical... than the "californians" that are actually originally from somewhere else.

[The Panther]

OK, I did receive the Jontun turn file, but I have since discovered that the Atlantis turn file is not working properly. I have sent an email requesting a replayed turn from Atlantis.

Look for the new turn within the next 8 hours or so after this gets resolved.

[Cainehill]

And people think hosted games are so much worse than PBEM - at least with a hosted game, you pretty much know you have valid turn files, and if QH is off, it really has no disadvantages compared to pbem.

[The Panther]

Since we both do love a good argument (I guess it is all that New Mexico sunshine on our heads), I have to disagree:
1. QH off means that the owner of the server has to keep on top of things to force host if someone goes AWOL, or have a fixed hosting schedule.
2. I have seen no less than 3 MP games on a server (2 with me and 1 that my son was in) go crazy such that the game ends. With PBEM, you can always go back to previous fatherland files and attempt to re-start at a point before the game goes Nagot. We did this with the Yarnspinners and managed to recover the game by replaying Turn 29 a couple of times until it got past the game errors.
3. People with servers rarely do the non-QH option, although I did manage to convince the hosts for my last 2 server games to go to a fixed schedule (which, as you know, solves a lot of the problems with QH).
4. Many people forget to do their server turns if not reminded in an email. I know I do. The frequency of stales on a server is probably 5-10 times that of a PBEM.

But ah, the advantages of a server:
1. People uploading the turns KNOW that their 2h file is good, which is certainly not true for PBEM. But a good PBEM host should know also if he takes the time to check throughly.
2. The server game tends to move a LOT faster, especially for the early moves.

Interesting enough, I did check the input files yesterday and somehow overlooked the fact that the little dash next to Atlantis was missing. There ought to be a better way than that tiny little dash thingy to show the host that a turn file is missing.

This delay is not a big deal since the next turn won't be due until next Sunday anyway. Had this been a normal week, I would have probably forced some stales or emailed the missing folks sooner.

Next Sunday, we will get back to our normal schedule. This hopefully will last until the Christmas holidays. By then, most of the indies should be gone and the game will get very interesting.

[shovah]

'4. Many people forget to do their server turns if not reminded in an email. I know I do. The frequency of stales on a server is probably 5-10 times that of a PBEM.'
how does playing pbem make you remember to do it more? i mean surely its just as easy to rememmber to go onto the server as it is to send your turn file?

[The Panther]

shovah said:

how does playing pbem make you remember to do it more? i mean surely its just as easy to rememmber to go onto the server as it is to send your turn file?



It is because you get an email when a new turn is out on PBEM but you don't on a server game. In fact, I keep the turn email sitting in my inbox until I send in my 2h file as a constant reminder that it is due.

Of course, I check my email maybe 10 times a day. I am guessing that not all people do this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Zooko and some others started a thing where the server automatically sends out an email when a new turn is up. This helps greatly when it works. I did get a stale once because the notification thing failed and the turn hosted without me remebering that a turn was due around that time. That can't happen with PBEM unless your email server messes up (which has been know to happen). This is why I post on this forum about specific turn files due so people have two independant ways to check that their turns are needed.

[The Panther]

Turn 13 is out and no one staled! The next turn is due next Sunday at 8 PM MST unless ALL the following things happen:
1. I somehow find my lost Dominions CD before tomorrow morning and install the game on my laptop.
2. I receive all 16 of the 2h files in a timely fashion and they all work.
3. I find an internet connection in Arizona and manage to host a new turn.

I would be willing to bet that it is unlikely to have all three items above happen in the next few days!

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
Since we both do love a good argument (I guess it is all that New Mexico sunshine on our heads), I have to disagree:
1. QH off means that the owner of the server has to keep on top of things to force host if someone goes AWOL, or have a fixed hosting schedule.




Ah, and the host doesn't have to keep on top of things with pbem? I didn't realize all the status emails, reminders, running the turns and mailing them out were automatic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Seriously - right now, you go to run the turn and realize you don't have a valid turn file for someone, meaning you have to contact them and ask for another. Not to mention checking to see if you have all the turns, nag people who are going to stale, etc.



2. I have seen no less than 3 MP games on a server (2 with me and 1 that my son was in) go crazy such that the game ends. With PBEM, you can always go back to previous fatherland files and attempt to re-start at a point before the game goes Nagot.



Set up the server to run a script / batch file before each turn runs and you can have it copy the fatherland and other files. Just as easy to recover from an error then. Oh, and even with PBEM, don't you have to do something to save off the fatherland file each turn, lest it go corrupt? I mean - way back when, I recall having to give up SP games because the fatherland went bad.



3. People with servers rarely do the non-QH option, although I did manage to convince the hosts for my last 2 server games to go to a fixed schedule (which, as you know, solves a lot of the problems with QH).



Back when mosehansen was a viable server, I often made games I owned fixed schedule once the early game rush was over.This one's just a matter of what the host is willing to do; if I should get a low-power machine I'm willing to leave up full time, I'd certainly be hosting some games that went fixed schedule no later than turn 20 or so.



4. Many people forget to do their server turns if not reminded in an email. I know I do. The frequency of stales on a server is probably 5-10 times that of a PBEM.




Heh. I expect the rate of stales on a PBEM would be about as high for a PBEM, if the host didn't send out reminders to people. And, of course, nothing keeps the host of a server based game from sending out emails, if they just get the email address for all the players. (Could even be done automatically via cron jobs on a linux box, possibly Windoze too.)

But admittedly, most people running server games don't go to the effort to setup anything fancy with backing up key files, notifying players, etc. IIRC, Esben did for mosehansen though, with a variety of options for being notified when a turn had run.

[puffyn]

As per order of the council, all posters to the wiki who do not identify themselves (or at least obtain a marginally clever pseudonym) will be summarily eaten.

- Apep, who longs for some good red meat

(Translation: you have to log in to the wiki to post now. It's fast, it's easy, it's fun...)

[Huntsman]

I'm currently in my first two PBEM games and they seem like a lot more hassle/work/chaos than the server games I've been in. But maybe it's just because the server ops were better than average. All I know is I got an email telling me when the turn was ready, I'd login and take my turn, logoff and wait for the next 48-hour notification--just like clockwork. The only problem I had was every once in a blue moon the first connection attempt didn't work but the 2nd always did.

The one thing I think where PBEM has an advantage is in being more forgiving for stales since the host usually delays the game until said staler decides to send his/her turn. Of course, this is only beneficial if nobody minds the delays... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

I know it has been almost a week since our last turn, but I am delaying hosting turn 14 until tomorrow for the following reasons:
1. QM did not get his Ermor turn in.
2. Tauren did not get his TC turn in because of the holidays last week meant he had no internet access.
3. I will have to go on a business trip to Washington, DC on Thursday morning, returning Sunday around noon. Thus, I cannot host Thursday anyway.

So, the turn schedule for the next week will be Monday, Wednesday, and Sunday at 8 PM MST (-7 GMT). I will be hosting on those three days whether or not I get all the turns sent in, for this game does need to start moving faster. No more Mr. Nice Guy with respect to the stales!

The Panther

[The Panther]

Turn 15 has been sent. The next deadline is Wednesday at 8 PM MST. This time, there will be no tolerance for late turn files and the game will host on schedule.

I received 31 gold and 1 gem from one nation for revealing capitols and will be emailing location information to the smart pretender in charge of that nation!

[The Panther]

My email to Zooko bounced back to me. Do you have another email address that I can use?

[Zooko]

zooko@zooko.com is the only one I use. Why did it bounce??

[The Panther]

Here is the message:

The following addresses had delivery problems:

<zooko@zooko.com>
Permanent Failure: Bad destination system address
Delivery last attempted at Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:17:21 -0000


I sent it again to see if it would work.

[Ygorl]

I also have yet to receive the turn file... Never had any problems in the past, but it's been 3.5 hours since your post, and I'm starting to get worried/impatient/greedy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Good chance it's just bogged down somewhere between New Mexico, Iceland, and Rhode Island, but if you end up needing to send Zooko's turn again and wouldn't mind re-sending me the Ms, it would be great.
And as always, thanks for being an awesome host.

[Cainehill]

Mine got through, possibly going New Mexico -> Korea -> New Mexico. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If you had an A-Ermor, I could try sending you your turn, but you don't.

[puffyn]

Never fear, Apep is always willing to help out in a pinch. Providing my minions didn't bungle everything up again, you should have the M's shortly...

[Ygorl]

To the rescue!
Thanks for the help. And Cainehill, thanks for the implicit offer of trading nations for a turn.
Now let's see what damage those lances have wrought...

[The Panther]

With a little over 24 hours until hosting, I am missing the following 5 turn files:
Arco
Caelum
Ermor
Man
Marignon

Ygrol - Did you ever receive the turn file from me? I received no message that it bounced back.

[Ygorl]

Panther, I got it the next day. I was definitely glad to get the forward from puffyn, as it's taking a long time to bend quantum_mechani to my will.

Edit - it looks like it actually might be a couple more turns before he's my mindless lackey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

Turn 16 has been sent out. The deadline is Sunday at 8 PM MST. I will be away from my computer from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.

Unfortunately, the two hotmail accounts came back as undeliverable. This is Jontunheim and Atlantis. It must be a hotmail problem since no others bounced and nobody else has a hotmail account.

I will attach the two turn files to this forum for those two nations since I don't have time to wait for a fix. Let us hope that hotmail starts working again or you will need new email accounts by Sunday.

[The Panther]

Jontun file attached

[Wish]

weird about the hotmail thing.

[Zooko]

http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition12

[The Panther]

All turns are in but Atlantis. Hosting is in anout 2-3 hours.

[Zooko]

There is also a new Proposition, the Fateful Proposition 13.

[Ironhawk]

Zooko said:
http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition12



Might a humble human make a suggestion to the august Council of Wyrms regarding Proposition 12? If only the winning Wyrm gains from the event then only the Wyrms in the most powerful position (in terms of humans eaten) will have any motivation to pass this resolution. My guess is that this would only be a handful? Which means that it is unlikely to pass.

My suggestion is to change it to a betting pool so that all of Wyrmdom can participate. Allow Wyrms to declare themselves contenders and allow all others to place bets on said contenders based on some set of odds you all can work out on your own. Then the give the winning Wyrm some % of the betting pool and pay out all the winning bets from the sums given in all the bets which were placed on losing contenders.

[The Panther]

Turn 17 has been sent out. Next deadline is Tuesday at 8 PM MST. News:

1. Atlantis staled. I am sorry about that, for I know hotmail was down when the last turn was mailed. I did post the turn file on the forum, but I guess Atlantis does not read the forum or he is out. There has been plenty of time for Atlantis to have taken sufficient action to avoid the stale.
2. Zona Nyl has died for the second time. I suppose that means he now joins the ranks of magic-less wyrms.
3. A Death Match has been scheduled for the very bravest of the wyrms.

[Morkilus]

Any Wyrms want to bet on who will win the Deathmatch?

[Wish]

I bet it is the dragon, or his people. (bet: 1 gem)

[Morkilus]

Aren't deathmatches... dangerous? I doubt there will be ANY pretenders participating, especially since it kills your voting status (not that we've been voting on much). Well, I'm about to come up with a doozy of a proposal that may get some debate.

[Ygorl]

I was updating the web page, which included noting that propositions 12 and 13 had been defeated. However, it appears that two dead wyrms (Grundle and B'hemet) voted on proposition 12; without those two votes, the proposition would have passed. Unless I hear that those wyrms have rejoined us, I will change prop. 12 to indicate its passage, and the human-eating contest will commence! Given that Grundle acknowledges his unfortunate state in a comment, it seems like this will be the case.
Cheers!

[Cainehill]

Um - were they dead the whole time the voting was open? Remember, due to voting rules (24 hour votes), a Wyrm might be both dead and alive during that voting time frame.

Were any other Wyrms a little bit dead during the voting, who voted yes?

Not that it matters - Vyrmin can out eat any of y'all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

Actually, the voting period is not yet over. Recall that the rules specifically state that wryms have 48 hours to vote on weekends.

[RonD]

I guess B'ang!Pat'h will have to weigh in on prop 12. Don't think I have enough free time to come up with a suitably bombastic tirade, though, so he may have to vote in silence for a change.

[Cainehill]

Making it 7 nays (5 living) to 5 yeses, meaning 12 is still defeated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ygorl]

If it's 5 to 5, the proposition passes. Assuming that Grundle and B'hemet are in fact deceased (and have been throughout the voting period) we've still got a contest. Otherwise, we'll all just continue munching mortals in private. Kir'Doq of T'ien Ch'i could still kill it with a nay vote, though.

Everyone (including Ironhawk) should bear in mind that it is not a competition of who has eaten the most in history, it is only a contest of who can eat the most during one particular month. As such, everyone can compete on equal grounds.

[Reverend Zombie]

Ygorl said:
I was updating the web page, which included noting that propositions 12 and 13 had been defeated. However, it appears that two dead wyrms (Grundle and B'hemet) voted on proposition 12.



B'hemet was alive! Back from the dead for a turn or two now...

[Huntsman]

Ygorl said:
If it's 5 to 5, the proposition passes. Assuming that Grundle and B'hemet are in fact deceased (and have been throughout the voting period) we've still got a contest. Otherwise, we'll all just continue munching mortals in private. Kir'Doq of T'ien Ch'i could still kill it with a nay vote, though.

Everyone (including Ironhawk) should bear in mind that it is not a competition of who has eaten the most in history, it is only a contest of who can eat the most during one particular month. As such, everyone can compete on equal grounds.



My bad. I thought Prop 10 allowed the representative of a dead wyrm to vote but, in fact, it does not.

Murmur of C'tis

[Cainehill]

Ygorl said:
If it's 5 to 5, the proposition passes. Assuming that Grundle and B'hemet are in fact deceased (and have been throughout the voting period) we've still got a contest. Otherwise, we'll all just continue munching mortals in private. Kir'Doq of T'ien Ch'i could still kill it with a nay vote, though.



5 to 5 shouldn't pass - it doesn't have the slightest illusion of a majority. Imagine you and I are playing a game of chess, and I say, "Hey! I propose that knights should be able to move like rooks!"

You say "Hell no!", I say, "Yes!" - same proportion of voting as 5 to 5.

That's why most representative democracies have someone who can break a tie, voting only in the case of a tie, because otherwise, a tie would, and should, fail.

[Ygorl]

The current charter dictates that a tie vote passes. The intention was to allow controversial proposals to pass, so that more things happen. Given that virtually none of the proposals have passed so far, this seems like a reasonable bit of foresight on the part of the constitutional committee. The example you gave only applies, I think, when the voters are divided into two opposing camps - in that case, you're guaranteed to have anarchy. In our case, however, it's every wyrm for himself, and it seems to me there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe my intuition is wrong though...

...and you could always propose an amendment to change things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Reverend Zombie]

Cainehill said:

Ygorl said:
If it's 5 to 5, the proposition passes. Assuming that Grundle and B'hemet are in fact deceased (and have been throughout the voting period) we've still got a contest. Otherwise, we'll all just continue munching mortals in private. Kir'Doq of T'ien Ch'i could still kill it with a nay vote, though.



5 to 5 shouldn't pass - it doesn't have the slightest illusion of a majority. Imagine you and I are playing a game of chess, and I say, "Hey! I propose that knights should be able to move like rooks!"

You say "Hell no!", I say, "Yes!" - same proportion of voting as 5 to 5.




Seems to call for some sort of quorum requirement.

[Zooko]

QUORUM REQUIREMENT? What do you think Proposition 13 was about? BWARGH!
--Sak

[puffyn]

Mistakes were made, and I would like to apologize to all my fellow wyrms for not noticing before now that it was impossible to upload images to the wiki. That was never my intent, and I have now fixed it. Apep has assured me that those responsible were summarily eaten (but very wyrmanely), and that it won't happen again, but if it does, he'll eat them, too.

-puffyn

[The Panther]

Turn 18 has been sent. Next deadline is Thursday at 8 PM MST. News:
1. Ermor has staled.
2. Tvitno, the Caelum Death Elder, has won the Death Match.
3. No wyrms in the HOF died.