The Council of Wyrms

[Wish]

"that voted in favor of this proposition." Ermor voted AGAINST the proposition.

though he has a prop up, currently, to rectify his no vote, so maybe in the future it will be legal, I'm not sure the effect will be retroactive.

Its not a grievance, its just how the law is written. Masterblaster, LISTEN TO THE LAW! Of course it is up to the attacked nation to pen up a prop to recognize you as rogue, otherwise you two can work it out on your own, and you need not be declared rogue.

mistakes have been made and rectified in the past -- or they can result in being rogue, like they did for machaka.

[Ygorl]

The effect would not be retroactive, but I don't think it matters for this case. As I read it, the "that voted in favor of this proposition" clause refers to "Ulm or any Pretenderate or Nation" - that is, 39ers are allowed to attack *anyone* who attacks Ulm or any other 39er. Of course, if the nation you're attacking is ruled by a Wyrm who is himself a 39er, you leave yourself open to attacks by other 39ers. Ermor, however, is not a 39er (yet?) so I'm not on the "open season" list.

I wasn't serious about the grievance bit, just some friendly ribbing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Folket]

I have read the chapter closly and have arrived at an unexpected conclusion.

Anyone is allowed to attack a province with a fort under siege.

"Any attack by any nation upon a province (or a group of provinces) controlled by another nation must first be cleared by the Council. You may state your case before the Council, and you should try to be as persuasive as possible."

"Provinces with one player owning a fort and another player owning the province remain contested until one nation controls both. Either side can commit any forces in such situations until ownership becomes clear."

Since noone is controlling the province you are free to attack it. I think this is a misstake from when the charter was first written.

I think I will put up a proposition to remove that loophole from the rules later, and return the provinces that belongs to Vanheim.

[Ygorl]

I don't think that's a clear loophole... The way I read the charter, and the way I think people have been understanding it, is that a province that is contested is controlled by both players, and so either can commit forces - but a third party cannot attack that province, unless that third party has a right to attack one or the other controlling nations.

So, I don't think anything needs fixing, there. Of course, y'all might disagree...

[PashaDawg]

Ygorl said:
The effect would not be retroactive, but I don't think it matters for this case. As I read it, the "that voted in favor of this proposition" clause refers to "Ulm or any Pretenderate or Nation" - that is, 39ers are allowed to attack *anyone* who attacks Ulm or any other 39er. Of course, if the nation you're attacking is ruled by a Wyrm who is himself a 39er, you leave yourself open to attacks by other 39ers. Ermor, however, is not a 39er (yet?) so I'm not on the "open season" list.




I think Ygorl's interpretation of Prop 39 is correct. Also, I don't think a proposal can have a retroactive effect unless it explicitly provides.

Pasha

[Wish]

yeah it does read that way, on further investigation. I totally read it wrong.

[Folket]

Well, if it is as you say, you attack a province control among other by vanheim and you should be decleared rouge.

[Ygorl]

An interesting interpretation of the law, and one I hadn't thought of. In that case, the right to make war (granted by a proposition) would extend only to provinces controlled *exclusively* by the allowed opponent(s). In which case, one could become immune to attack (at least in castled provinces) by getting a buddy to keep a scout besieging each of your provinces. You'd lose half your income, true, but that might be better than losing your castles...

I don't think that makes as much sense, though; more sensible to me is that the right to make war not be susceptible to such tricks. If I'm allowed to attack you, I'm allowed to attack you in any province where you've got a presence, regardless of anyone else who might be around. This also seems in the spirit of the charter, which explicitly allows for a contested province, no matter how it became contested, to fall to either party (and the people of Man are rejoicing at the return of their long-lost land... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)


As far as more mundane administration goes, I've received turns from everyone except Aby, Mari, Pyth, T'ien, and Van. It's probably at least as hard to write the abbreviations as it is to write out the full names... Just a random comment on life, for your amusement. Or non-amusement.
Also, I like the name of the vehicle "Mercury Villager". Makes me think there should be a "Honda Peasant" and a "Ford Serf". I also like how there are bottles of juice that say things like "TROPICAL TWIST FURY flavored" - because there's no such thing as tropical twist fury, only flavors that imitate it.
Yeah...

[Ygorl]

I'm having an issue with Puffyn's turn... If we can't resolve it by early tomorrow morning, I'll have to delay hosting of this turn until Sunday. Sorry, folks.

[puffyn]

It's not my fault. Well, I guess it is, but I've resent the turn and hopefully it'll work.

[Ygorl]

Hooray, Puffyn saved it!

[Folket]

I think we should either follow the rules literaly or agre on a new set of rules. If you can say that it was okey for you to take land from Vanheim when I was marching past it with the excuse "it was in the spirit of the game", then anyone can get away with that.

So there will be no hosts until sunday... do that mean that we should get the turns in as soon as possible so that you can host as soon as you get home, or do we just skip a host and we may send turns when we are used to send them on sundays.

[djo]

Speaking as the player: I am about to move from Mass. to Virginia this week, so I may possibly stale a turn or two, although I think I won't. No need to delay the game on my account. On the other hand, Marignon will not be making any brilliant, well-thought out moves either. The inquisitors and diabolists are too busy packing.

My email won't change in the short run. Quite probably I will be slow to reply to messages until next weekend.

[Ygorl]

Another player (me) chimes in... Apep's got a proposition up to turn the Wyrm Ygorl semi-rogue so that he and Zona Nyl can duke it out in an uninhibited fashion, to which Ygorl replies (with much sadness!) that it's not necessary since Zona Nyl failed to fulfill the requirements of Prop. 44 and is therefore rogue.

Exciting times, these...

[Folket]

Ygorl is rouge after his attack against Vanheim.

[Folket]

I'm moving on Sunday and I would prefer if we could set the game on hold til I get internet, but I can understand if people want the game to move on, so I'm searching for a sub until I get internet.

[Folket]

And for that sub I would prefer to have someone that is allready playing this game.

[Ygorl]

I'm happy to pause it while you get hooked up; I guess it would delay the Sunday hosting until some unknown point after that?
Or, I see shovah's already volunteered to cover for you... Let me know what you want to do.

[puffyn]

I'd be happy to pause for Folket next week if other people are okay with it. Life is busy...

[Folket]

Well, I think this is a critical stage of the game with me going rouge and all. Ermor might triumph or fall apart, but either way I feel much better if it does under my watch.

So let us host tomorrow and sunday then continue as soon as I get internet up.

[djo]

I'd like to thank Panther for starting this game. It's too bad he ended up in an untenable position so early, because I think in the last 20 turns or so, the game has started looking like what he intended.

I wouldn't mind seeing another such game (wyrms, dragons, mages, whatever) in the future (after this one is done). I think that to make diplomacy even more important, the number of starting provinces/nation ought to be reduced.

As a side note, Panther's game has the effect of illustrating Dominion 2's inherent variety. 16 wyrms in 16 different nations with 16 strategies. A beginner could look at the pretender builds on the wiki and learn a lot about the possible variety of strategies. If I were not sitting in an empty apartment, on my way out to move, I'd add a space on the pretender builds page (or maybe links) for people who want to explain how they chose their build. That way beginners would have a small reference of all the various strategies one can do with a single pretender, but almost any nation.

[Wish]

they tried a dragon one, but only half the players do their turns, and the senate has not passed anything, infact there is no real structure, just a quiet and enduring peace accord between all nations. Its weird.

[Ygorl]

Ha! The construction of my unstoppable army of Shadow Vestals has begun!

[Wish]

man shadow vestals are insanely easy to banish. at least in my tests with them.

[Wish]

is there a hold up on this game? I am not recieving turns.

[PashaDawg]

I think we are waiting for Folket to get his internet connection again, but the next turn will be on Tuesday if not sooner.

[Folket]

Seems like my ISP is on vacation but they will install internet next week. =(

(I'm writing this message from my GFs parents. )

[Cainehill]

Er - this is next week. And a turn didn't go on "Tuesday if not sooner" - are we dead?

[Ygorl]

No word from Folket.
Has anyone seen him in any other games?

It would be a real shame if he dropped out...

[Folket]

Sorry, since it was the weekend I thought next week would refer to the week after the coming week.

So at some point during the coming week I will get my connection.

[puffyn]

Hi everyone,

Just a friendly check-in... any word on when you'll be ready to smite again, Folket? I've actually been quite happy to have a bit of a pause, since I was out of town for a few days and busy with other things (*cough* CIV 4 *cough*), but I'm starting to miss ol' Apep and my tricksy, devious, esteemed fellow Wyrms...

-puffyn

[Wish]

yeah, I don't want this game to die.

[Ygorl]

Hmmm, yeah, Civ 4. I keep getting beat to Alpha Centauri, despite having by far the highest score up to that point... I'll get you yet, Roosevelt!
And you too, Zona Nyl!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[djo]

Ditto all that. I just moved and my new job is busy. And, yeah, Civ IV too (just out for us Mac people). But I wait for the day when King James can add more titles to his portfolio.

[PashaDawg]

I will be out of town from Saturday, July 29 through August 5. Should I get a sub or is this game gonna be on hold until then?

[Ygorl]

No telling... Folket said he thought he'd be up and running some time this week, but that was a while ago with no word from him since then. A sub couldn't hurt, certainly...

[Cainehill]

Or if Folket isn't currently at war, let him stale.

[Folket]

Hello everyone!

I never heard back from my ISP, and now it seems like I will be out of internet for an other three weeks minimum. But the good news is that I got a bike. So I may ride it 12 km to get my turn everyday so we may run on schedule again. As I do not have a job at the moment it will only be good for me to move some, instead of siting home all day.

I will return my turn this weekend and we may run as ordinary.

[PashaDawg]

Hi:

I will be out of town next week starting this Saturday until next Saturday.

Jurri will be filling in for me.

Pasha

[puffyn]

Hi Folket,

Now that's the kind of dedication I like to see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-puffyn

[Ygorl]

Turn has hosted!!!

Ermor is very scary. 'Nuff said.

[Cainehill]

And ... Arco is rogue!

[Reverend Zombie]

Cainehill said:

And ... Arco is rogue!



Was this by Proposition or action?

[Ygorl]

There hasn't been any news on the wiki in a long time, so certainly not by proposition.

[Cainehill]

Reverend Zombie said:

Cainehill said:

And ... Arco is rogue!



Was this by Proposition or action?



Definately by action - a tricked out etherlord teleporting into my province, thus attacking without any Council sanction.

[Reverend Zombie]

Ritual of Returning and you have my capital? Not sure how else that would have happened...

[djo]

Speaking as the player, and hoping folks will correct me and augment my recollections of current conflicts:

- Ulm and Arco are at war
- Arco is now rogue

- C'tis is fighting Vanheim and Ermor
- Ermor is rogue (due to missing payments on the Arcan Nexus tax?)

- Man is fighting Ermor
- Man has been suggested to be rogue, but no consensus has been reached, nor has anyone really pressed the issue

- Prop 39 is still a muddying factor in predicting future wars

Anyone have anything to add?

[Cainehill]

Reverend Zombie said:
Ritual of Returning and you have my capital? Not sure how else that would have happened...



Isn't your capital - you can look at the turn and see, it's a relatively unimportant province that I've held for ages. My guess was / is that, in danger of losing your last province, you did a blind teleport in hopes of lasting another turn, or you thought it was an Ulmish province - never has been, never (?) will be.

[Reverend Zombie]

Cainehill said:

Reverend Zombie said:
Ritual of Returning and you have my capital? Not sure how else that would have happened...



Isn't your capital - you can look at the turn and see, it's a relatively unimportant province that I've held for ages. My guess was / is that, in danger of losing your last province, you did a blind teleport in hopes of lasting another turn, or you thought it was an Ulmish province - never has been, never (?) will be.



The last turn was so long ago, my memory's hazy. After viewing the turn, I see that I marched into that province of yours, after all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Cainehill]

Marched - so you did. I would presume you might have meant to march into Linshire; alas, the only exit that would mitigate the offense and retract my declaration of roguehood would be back into Trencebor, somewhat full of an Ulmish army. Perhaps you have an alternative suggestion before the teleports and astral travels are launched?

[Reverend Zombie]

Descend away!

[Ygorl]

My poor trolls didn't stand much of a chance - though I think they survived the turn shown here (which was 1, I think).

Very impressive, Folket!

(2.3 MB)

[Ygorl]

Also, would anyone object if we moved to a twice-a-week schedule? Maybe Tuesday and Saturday at 8pm? These turns are getting *long*.

[Cainehill]

I wouldn't mind, even if this is one of 1.5 games I have going ( this and subbing in Triple ) - a fixed schedule works well imo for the late game, especially where we supposedly have diplomacy.

Torpedo diplomacy sometimes, such as Arco invading yet more of my lands, breaking his ethereal nose on my fresh citadels, but still! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wish]

I will play my turns as I get them. so any time frame works for me.

[puffyn]

Yes, a longer schedule sounds like a good idea. There's just so much to micromanage these days... and I'm not even fighting.

-puffyn

[Ygorl]

I guess the simplest way to shift into the new schedule would be to just put off the Thursday hosting to Saturday... Is that okay with everyone?

If people get their turns in to me sooner, I'll host sooner, and if someone objects we can figure out something else, but let's say the next hosting is scheduled for Saturday 8pm EDT.

[Folket]

Why has it hosted allready, should not next host be on Thursday?

[RonD]

Ygorl said:
Also, would anyone object if we moved to a twice-a-week schedule? Maybe Tuesday and Saturday at 8pm? These turns are getting *long*.

[Folket]

... I thought it would be thursday and Sunday...

[Ygorl]

I could pull up my backup of the turn, add Folket's .2h file to it, and re-host...
Anybody have strong feelings one way or the other? I don't mind doing it... I might even end up with the air queen this time! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(Who was it who stole my little princess??? I'm doing all the hard work here, and not only does someone else bogart the choicest artifacts that fall out, but someone has the nerve to take my little princess!!! NOT polite!)

[RonD]

Hmmm. Would we all have the option of submitting a new file? Not that much happened in Pythium one way or another.

[Ygorl]

I'm happy to bend to whatever people want... Some people have already sent in their turns for 103, though - as more time passes, it becomes less reasonable to rerun 102, I think. If we're going to do something, we should do it soon.

[puffyn]

I feel for Folket. However, in my experience, rehosting leads to strange badness. Besides, do we really want Man to have all three air queens again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Apep, non-summoner of air queens and a failure at bringing winter

[shovah]

How are the graphs (specifically gem income and provinces) looking now?

[Cainehill]

Personally - I don't see where Folket got the impression it was Thursday and Saturday. I mean - a week before the turn in question, Ygorl posted : "I guess the simplest way to shift into the new schedule would be to just put off the Thursday hosting to Saturday... Is that okay with everyone?"

Not sure how that is interpreted as Thursday and Sunday, and there certainly wasn't any response for a full week regarding it. Feh.

[Folket]

well, I guess it was just my mind playing me a trick. But I would prefer thursday and Sunday as days to host, Since I'm busy in the weekdays.

Let us play on now, I made a misstake and will have to live with it.

[Ygorl]

I don't mind going to Thursday/Sunday (in which case the upcoming Saturday hosting would take place on Sunday instead) - we've got Folket's vote for such a change... anyone else care to weigh in?

[Cainehill]

I like the current schedule, whatever it is (tues / Sat?).

[Ygorl]

I'm going to be out of town tonight anyway, so the hosting won't happen until tomorrow night - we can decide whether to continue the T/S schedule giving only two days to do the next turn, or skipping Tuesday (giving 6 days), or switching to Thursday/Sunday. I'm fine with any...
Oh, and Pasha, I was wondering what happened to my Sidhe Lord. I guess you've now got the power to turn other folks' commanders into wolves and take them as your own!
This knocks Folket out of the running as my estimate of the strongest nation...

Also, here's another nut for the council to chew on: Apep, in his vast shortsightedness, has declared war on Ygorl, nominally under the auspices of Prop. 39 (since Ygorl's been engaging in war with Zona Nyl). However, Zona Nyl is rogue; and "[a]ll diplomacy, trade, borders, and any other agreements with rogue nations are null and void" - Ygorl and his lawyers assume this extends to the mutual-defense agreement of Prop. 39, in which case Apep is about to become rogue. He of course would have a different interpretation of the Law... In that case, he's merely available for attack, for declaring war on another signatory of 39, but is not rogue.

Cheers, all!

[PashaDawg]

Ygorl:

I am soooo powerful now... I don't even know what you're talking about. Did you foolishly send your Sidhe Lord into my lands? Was that the tiny fizzy sound I thought I heard?

BTW, I will be away Sunday through Tuesday. So, if you can postpone the hosting until late, that would be nice. I will be back late Tuesday night (Boston time).

Lord Pasha

[puffyn]

We in Mictlan vigorously dispute Ygorl's interpretation of Article 8 of the Charter. It is clear that this language is intended to allow a Wyrm to escape its private agreements and deals with a rogue Wyrm. Proposition 39 is, as we understood at the time, a far-reaching law which supercedes many of the detailed rules in the Charter. It is clear that a Wyrm must be a member of the council at the time of a vote, but since 39 does not explicitly alter a Wyrm's state upon roguehood, the most natural interpreation is that it does not.

Ygorl is correct that when we attack Man (we have merely notified Ygorl privately that we intend to attack him at some point in the future), Mictlan shall then also be a valid target for PP39 Wyrms.

[Wish]

unless you get a prop passed prior to attacking to nullify 39

[djo]

We agree with our neighbor Apep; the bindings dissolved by roguehood are agreements made within the law, not obligations under the law itself. Proposition 39 is, as we see it, part of the law, and thus its terms are not abrogated by roguehood.

Jacques of Marignon
still very holy but also very sleepy; perhaps widespread war will keep us awake

[RonD]

That interpretation makes going rogue almost meaningless. If that's the game y'all want, fine. But it's not the game we started.

[Wish]

going rogue clearly means that you have neither the protections, not the privileges of the council, or any of its propositions.

it is essential ex-communication

[Ygorl]

Pasha, here's what I meant... One of my Sidhe Lords vanished. Without a trace. They do that sometimes, it's in their nature I suppose, but this guy was gone for a month or more. Unheard of. Then, next thing I know, my scouts bring me word that they've discovered and killed a sneaking Ulmish spy in my capital. Here's the strange thing, though... That "Ulmish spy" was a wolf, with the exact same name as my vanished Lord, with the exact same magical powers, and (if I remember correctly, which I may not) with the exact same magic items even! In light of the revelation of this new power of yours, I am willing to do nearly anything to prevent your ire from pointing my way.
I'll also wait to host until I get your turn. If it's late Tuesday, that might mean Wednesday, though...

As always, if anyone needs things slowed down, or our delays cause you problems in getting the next turn in on time, let me know.


And, it looks like we've got some disagreement on the interpretation of the law here... Maybe I'll have to put up a proposition! How exciting!

edit: The proposition is now up. Read, enjoy, and vote!

[Ygorl]

What a horde! I've never *seen* so many demons and devils!
Apep is rogue, if my new proposition passes; if not, he's open to attack by everyone under Prop. 39, but keeps his council vote.

I guess if he actually were rogue, he wouldn't get to vote on 39, but that seems cheesy to me.

[puffyn]

You like it, you really like it! I've been hording those demons and devils for a long time now...

As for your proposition, I will have something more to say on that later today.

-Apep, Horder of Hordes

[Wish]

Ygorl said:
What a horde! I've never *seen* so many demons and devils!
Apep is rogue, if my new proposition passes; if not, he's open to attack by everyone under Prop. 39, but keeps his council vote.

I guess if he actually were rogue, he wouldn't get to vote on 39, but that seems cheesy to me.



I read the propr, and nowhere in it does it say that pasha is rogue. It only deals with what it means to be rogue...

explain what you mean.

[Ygorl]

Not Pasha's Wyrm, Puffyn's Wyrm.
Apep sent six armies into the lands of Man last turn; Apep is arguing that Man was open to attack by virtue of Prop. 39, since Ygorl attacked Ermor. Ygorl is arguing that, since Ermor went rogue, he was no longer a part of Prop. 39, therefore Ygorl was still protected, therefore the horrific and unprovoked Mictlanish attack was illegal.

Quite a mess, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wish]

yikes.

quite a misunderstanding. What precedent would this have to make a new clarification retroactive against past misunderstandings without explicitely stating as such?

[Ygorl]

A good point.
If this proposition passes, Ygorl is happy to not prosecute roguehood as long as Apep withdraws his armies and makes modest reparations. In that case, it would not set a precedent.

Though, I don't think it would be a terrible precedent to set; the proposition is not creating new law, rather it is a poll of all Wyrms as to what the existing law already is. There's certainly cause for lenience when a law is violated through misunderstanding or ignorance, but such ignorance does not mean that the law was not violated.
...Especially in the case of such a diabolical attack!

[puffyn]

Hey Ygorl,

Can we wait until after this proposition passes or fails to host? That would mean hosting Wed night. Since Pasha won't be back until late tonight anyhow, I think that's what we would be doing regardless. Plus Ulm should get a chance to see the excitement, I think.

This is mainly because I do not wish to be declared rogue, and if Prop 49 passes I will take different actions than if it fails.

Thanks,
puffyn

[Ygorl]

Sure!
I was planning on waiting until Wednesday for Pasha anyway... I'll wait until Pasha gets his turn in, and then until the proposition closes and I get a turn from you.
Depending on how late that runs, I might not get to host until Thursday...

[Ygorl]

There is, by the way, about a day left to vote. Even those who have already voted might want to revisit the page, as things have gotten pretty wild. I don't mean "Girls Gone Wild" wild (we are only Wyrms), but still pretty wild.

[PashaDawg]

I am back, and I have sent in my turn and voted.

Pasha

[puffyn]

Is there not only about a hour left to vote? The proposition was posted during "weekend time" at 23:00 (EST) on the 13th, thus it closes at 23:00 (EST) on the 15th, i.e. in an hour and a half. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[Ygorl]

Yeah, you're right. I'm losing track of what day it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[puffyn]

Following the rejection of Prop 49 and the logic behind it, Mictlan will continue the war against Man unless ordered to stop by some future proposition.

However, we have come up with a compromise proposal that salvages much of the idea of Prop 49 as it relates to wyrms going rogue in the future, and also spells out the legal position of Man and Mictlan, so we encourage you to vote on the new and exciting Proposition 50. (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition50)

[Ygorl]

Folks, I've been waiting for a turn (or a word) from Folket, but have received neither.
I can host tonight or tomorrow (depending on what I do tonight), or I can just wait until Saturday. At this point, I'm inclined to do the latter, if nobody objects. I would have a tough time getting my turn done in 2 days, I think. Too many people hate me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

On a related note, would anyone mind if we went to once-a-week? Or once every five days (though that might be confusing?) You use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to be worried about one - and those moves can take a long time.

Cheers!

[puffyn]

Ygorl,

We don't hate you; in fact, we in Mictlan just want to be closer to you. Yes, that's it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Once a week hosting is fine by me. It's so much work, getting all those devils into formation, and don't even ask about the difficulty in getting imps to practice marching in a straight line...

[djo]

I would prefer whatever schedule (1 or 2/week) to be predictable (same day or days each week). Every five days, not so good for me.

[PashaDawg]

Don't matter much to me. Once per week is fine. Twice a week would be preferred however.

Pasha

[Cainehill]

Um - hate to say it, but Folket has been screwing up a number of games (including one I was subbing for him in) even after his supposed restoration of internet service.

[Ygorl]

OK... for my sanity, and at least Puffyn's (sorry Pasha), let's say turns will be due Saturday at noon, EDT. This also gives Folket time to get his act together for this turn (I imagine things might be a little hairy down in Israel these days... that is where he is, right?) and enough time for future turns that, barring some catastrophe, we won't need to wait for him.

Pasha, I recommend you find yourself a war. I specifically recommend Puffyn, since he's demonstrated that he's got a large enthusiastic army. And Puffyn, you should remove the "just" from the first clause of your signature and place it into the second... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Don't worry, I've got plans for you, oh yes... Maybe they won't be obvious at first, but those demons will be dancing the polka (badly!) soon enough!

[Folket]

I'm very sorry, but I'm having alot of stress and I need to cut down on commitments.

I will look in the forum and see if anyone wants to sub me but most likly I will just put my nation to rouge.

I hope this will not screw the game for you others =(.

[shovah]

My turn will be delayed a bit as my hotmail is messing up a bit.

[Ygorl]

Well, you've got all week. Won't that be enough?
Or, you could make a gmail or lycos or yahoo account (all of them are way better than hotmail, as far as I'm concerned)...

Let me know closer to next Saturday if you still can't make it.

[shovah]

It should be fixed before then. I havnt been keeping track of this game so am i rouge or what? Really have no idea what im doing.

[Cainehill]

I would like to suggest that Prop 50 is thrown out, as a proposition that was never announced here - bad precedent to set, even if a decent proposition.

[Wish]

puffyn said:
Following the rejection of Prop 49 and the logic behind it, Mictlan will continue the war against Man unless ordered to stop by some future proposition.

However, we have come up with a compromise proposal that salvages much of the idea of Prop 49 as it relates to wyrms going rogue in the future, and also spells out the legal position of Man and Mictlan, so we encourage you to vote on the new and exciting <a href="http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition50">Proposition 50.</a>



cainehill, you mean like in the above quote, which you managed to past after at some point?

the council cannot be held responsible for your own irresponsibility.

[djo]

Hello everyone,

Effectively immediately, I'll be changing email addresses. My username is the same, but I'll be at gmail.com instead of earthlink.net. The old one will work for a while, but not forever.

If you need to contact me and don't have my address, just PM me through this forum.

Thanks!

[shovah]

Could anyone take over in this game for me/find some-one to do so, due to windows bloody xp i currently cant get dominions working.

[RonD]

Can you elaborate on the problem? Maybe someone can help. Dom2 seems like a pretty benign program that shouldn't cause trouble.

[shovah]

Read the technical/hardware issues sticky.

[Ygorl]

Hopefully we'll have a new Ermor player by next Saturday... Otherwise, I think it would be better to turn them AI than to let them sit stagnant? (Burden of Time, anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Also, Ygorl is trumpeting his successes in battle against Mictlan on the Yarnspinners page. Might be worthwhile reading for anyone out there hoping to scoop up the odd unique summon (though, of course, there will be no mention of Mannish casualties... I'll leave that to Apep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

[Wish]

whats the rule when a large sneaking army takes out patrolling forces, thus putting them in siege of the castle of the province?

I know the province is clearly contested (by the charter,) but am I right in thinking attacking within the castle would cause roguehood, since it is an active move to take the province without council ruling?

[Ygorl]

I think we talked about this a while back, and the consensus was that if sneakers were discovered, beat their discoverers, and as a result took over a province or contested a castle, there was nothing illegal about that - so, since a contested province may be contested by either party, it's legal to then siege and take the castle.
I might be wrong, though.

[Wish]

its certainly a loophole to the "no stealth attacks without council approval" portion of the charter. how would his attacking my castle work towards his attackability under prop 39?

[Ygorl]

Taking someone's castle would pretty clearly make the taker subject to Prop. 39 revenge, is my interpretation. For what that's worth... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[puffyn]

Mictlan will not be posting about Man's losses -- simply because he does not have any yet. His horde of well-equipped SCs and air mages will soon rule the world unless other Wyrms stand up against him.

(As noted elsewhere, I strongly feel that irrevocably turning Ermor AI would spoil an interesting game. I would prefer to see him stale a turn or two until a replacement can be found.)

[Ygorl]

I agree about Ermor... But if we can't find a replacement at all, it seems like it would be better to turn them AI than to just let them sit until they're gone? I guess we can worry about that if it comes to it... KissBlade's got the turn now, so hopefully it will grab his interest.

Incidentally, not very nice of whoever it was that dispelled my Well of Misery. But fine, if you want your sorrows back, you can have them!
This turn, at least.

Also, things aren't quite as determined as Puffyn'd have you believe (though I hope they're more determined than I'd have you believe... I don't think so though! Especially if Ermor resumes pounding on me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) He's throwing some nasty stuff at me, and I think I probably got very lucky in killing his two black-ops commanders this past turn - to those who complain that the spellcasting AI stinks, I say "not always!"

[KissBlade]

I would need the conceptual balance mod as well. =)

[Ygorl]

You can get it from this thread:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=410987&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[RonD]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
whats the rule when a large sneaking army takes out patrolling forces, thus putting them in siege of the castle of the province?

I know the province is clearly contested (by the charter,) but am I right in thinking attacking within the castle would cause roguehood, since it is an active move to take the province without council ruling?



Passage of http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition51

would certainly clear up any confusion.

[Wish]

well about a war between us, but not about the loophole.

[KissBlade]

Alright, is there anyone able to tell me which royalties/blood summons are available or unavailable by chance? There seems just an incredible amount of stuff needed to catch up on =\.

[Wish]

chances are nothing is available.

[KissBlade]

I would still like you guys to continue searching for a replacement. There really just seems to be entirely too much to handle here for my very very packed schedule =). However, I will attempt to sub while able and hopefully not stale any turns.

[Ygorl]

You can look on the game wiki at
http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Main_Page
in the Proclamations section, I've been announcing uniques as I kill them (fighting the just fight! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
There's at least a heliophagus and a demon lord up. Possibly others, depending on how religiously Puffyn's been resummoning them (or if other people have taken them; I'm not sure).
I'm pretty sure all the elemental royalty are taken - except there might be a fire king available, if Puffyn didn't resummon him.

Thanks so much for subbing, and hopefully you'll get sucked in and want to stay to the bitter (or sweet?) end!

[KissBlade]

eh ... I suppose it will be easier if I wasn't just suddenly thrown in with no actual update and information from the previous player.

[Ygorl]

The previous player (Shovah) only played 1 or 2 turns. The player before that (Folket) has given up his Dom2 habit.

If you're feeling really motivated, you can read through the history of the game on the wiki - or you can start with a clean slate, as a new personality of this already mercurial Wyrm, and renegotiate all your relationships...

Or you can just keep the nation from totally stagnating while we find a longer-term replacement.

As you like it!

[KissBlade]

While I certainly wouldn't mind a new personality it does seem that if Mictlan is engaged in war against the dominant player (you) it only makes sense to continue warfare currently, at least until you're about equal level. I certainly wouldn't mind a council position again since I rather like diplomacy in a game =).

[Ygorl]

I bet you could get reinstated if you made up back payments on the Nexus tax... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Also, on more mundane administrative things... I'm going to be out of the US (France!) for a couple weeks, starting next Wednesday. We can either just skip two hostings, or we can host as normal this coming Saturday and I can host again on Wednesday right before I leave and then again on Wednesday or Thursday two weeks later, right after I get back.
Er, more coherently, we can host on 9/9 and then again on 9/30, or we can host on 9/9, 9/13, 9/28 and 9/31 (Sunday rather than Saturday to avoid the two-day turn).

What do people prefer? I'm happy either way...

[Wish]

You send the turns, I'll play it when I get it.

[KissBlade]

Ygorl said:
I bet you could get reinstated if you made up back payments on the Nexus tax... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Also, on more mundane administrative things... I'm going to be out of the US (France!) for a couple weeks, starting next Wednesday. We can either just skip two hostings, or we can host as normal this coming Saturday and I can host again on Wednesday right before I leave and then again on Wednesday or Thursday two weeks later, right after I get back.
Er, more coherently, we can host on 9/9 and then again on 9/30, or we can host on 9/9, 9/13, 9/28 and 9/31 (Sunday rather than Saturday to avoid the two-day turn).

What do people prefer? I'm happy either way...



I would certainly like to skip two hostings just to get my bearings. =) And I would like to plead my case to the collective council on why a tax on the Arcane Nexus is not necessary.

[RonD]

I wonder if the game will survive a 3-week gap in hosting. Participation in the council seems to have really fallen off (the current proposition has drawn only 2 votes in over 24 hours).

I think this game was a truly grand idea. Maybe other people are satisfied with how it turned out, but I had hoped for and expected a lot more war-related council activity. Instead, it turned into the world's biggest turtle-fest. Make no mistake, I am as much to blame as anyone else - I could have easily tried to declare war on someone much earlier. The endgame seems now to only hold the interest of the top 2 or 3 nations (minus Ermor, that is). Personally, I really would like to be out of this game by the time dom3 comes out.

[Ygorl]

Well, I'm offering the option of a "mere" two-week gap.
Are other people still having fun though? If not, there's no reason to continue... We don't have an obligation to crown a supreme wyrm.

I don't feel like I haven't had enough war, incidentally... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If it really is only a couple people still enjoying the game, we should probably end the story here. If people are enjoying it quietly, though, let's press on... I've got some demons and (with the potential return of Ermor) ghouls and wolves to kill...

[KissBlade]

To be honest, I do think there is just way too much turmoil in my current swap in (since I hardly have a clue what your usual army/tactics are =) ) to say that it is a pretty safe bet that you have the game unless I'm able to employ some dastardly underhanded tactics such as assimilating idle empires =). The Nexus certainly helps but I'm not even certain of what 5.1 balance mods include though I noticed that wraith swords weren't nerfed and your treelords can fly XD.

[Cainehill]

I'm kinda busy right now, but still enjoying it.

[djo]

Whatever hosting schedule other folks want is fine for me, with the caveat that turns be no less than 48 hrs apart, and the next host time is always given in the turn email.

I'm still having fun. The quiet on the current proposition could be a number of things: strategic silence, an unwillingness to get involved, anything. Personally, Marignon is biding its time, because I fear my first war will be my last.

[RibbonBlue]

I've been lurking this thread, and i'd like to point out:
09/28/05 ------ First Post
09/07/06 ------ Today
3 More weeks and it will have been a full year.

[Wish]

wow

time sure flies

[KissBlade]

There's no way I can make the Wednesday deadline for the turn -.-. I thought the next turn was due Saturday!

[Ygorl]

Back in the middle of page 92 (!!!) I said that I'd be out of town for a couple weeks, and I could either host right before I left and right after I came back, meaning two weeks between hosts but the same number as we would have had, or I could skip the two hosts when I'll be gone. Consensus seemed to be to do the former. I'm happy to do the latter, though. In that case, the turn is not due Wednesday but instead is due Saturday, Sept. 30, at noon.
That's a long time... Sorry folks, but I need my vacation!

[RonD]

A new, improved Proposition is available for your greedy (er, voting) pleasure:

http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proposition52

Come one, come all! Come get some gems!

[Ygorl]

So, with hosting in less than 24 hours (or maybe a bit more, if real life interferes), I've only received three turns. Does this mean people are too distracted by the imminent arrival of Dom3 to want to continue this game? Or are the turns forthcoming?

[Wish]

did you get my turn way back when?

[KissBlade]

I will try to enter my turn in by the end of tonight. There's A LOT of organization I need to do. Not to mentiono, I have to scout all the forces that you have because I don't have much intelligence info >_<.

[Ygorl]

Wish, I got yours.
Kiss, no need for scouting. As far as I'm concerned, we're not even *really* at war... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[KissBlade]

Seems to me then you should return that fort you just took and I'll agree to that one ~_^ ... Oh I got home EXTRAORDINARILY late on Friday night, if you can wait till the end of Saturday, I'll be able to turn in my turn hurriedly >_<. However if people are starting to drop out, I think it's safe to call man the winner at this point.

[PashaDawg]

I think you have my turn, yes? (Ulm)

Pasha

[puffyn]

I, too, promise to get my turn in by tonight...

[Ygorl]

I've got Abysia, Jotun, Man, Pythium, and Ulm at this point. No problem with waiting. I've got a full day ahead of me anyway.

[KissBlade]

I sent in a somewhat rushed turn =).

[djo]

Good think you posted that list--I sent my turn on Sept. 16, but apparently it didn't arrive. Resent...

[Ygorl]

Sorry all that I didn't get the turns out until so late today; my housemate's parents were visiting...

[PashaDawg]

So, is this game continuing after the Dom 3 wave?

[djo]

When in doubt, propose another proposition!

Is there anywyrm brave enough, or political enough, to try to claim victory through council proposition? Who truly controls the largest voting bloc? The wyrm from Man, besides being our gracious host, holds the most territory, and continues to hold it (with some slippage) against two strong contenders. Will he attempt to claim victory?

(Note: although a clause in "game settings" allows a wyrm to claim victory with 12 VPs, oddly enough, that clause does not appear in the charter! Even if it did, another proposition would presumably take precedence.)

[Ygorl]

Slippage, ha!
I'm steps away from sweeping through Mictlan's lands like a mighty wind, C'tis has just rashly attacked me (opening their soft lizardy bellies to harsh and immediate reprisal), and Ermor, while huge and intimidating, has yet to pose a credible threat to my lands... Slippage. Pah!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Realistically, it could be a few months before I finished with Mictlan and C'tis, and even then I'd only have 11 VPs. And that's if I continue to hold off Ermor, and nobody else makes a successful move against me... I might be able to get more VPs more quickly by attacking someone else, but that would be totally out of character...

I'd be more than happy to call it a game, at this point. Dominions 3 has so much to play with! Did you know there's a new "head" artifact, but this one is not that of a lich or a mighty starspawn? Rather, it's from one of the humblest creatures imaginable... but an artifact!
There's also an enchantment that makes drakes and wyverns worthwhile, even late in the game!
Ah, fun...
Anyway, Ygorl's not interested in victory by Council... He's bent on the return of Avalon, after all, and the other Wyrms are becoming increasingly irrelevant as he approaches his goal. If we do call it a game, in my imagination he will have succeeded... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I also am happy to continue this game as long as people want...

[Wish]

yeah i'm kinda losing interest in it too.

[djo]

We have posted a new proposition regarding the cessation of hostilities, to be considered at your leisure.

King James of Marignon

[djo]

Now that the war is over, I'd like to thank Panther for the initial concept, and Panther and Ygorl for hosting. If we had cumulative VPs as in D3, I think the game would have been perfect.

A year of great fun!

[Ygorl]

Yeah, thanks everyone for playing, too... That was a *serious* game!

I think, one day when I've got more than fifteen seconds of free time, I'm going to run one last hosting with the turns that some people have sent me (and, I suppose I'll have to finish mine). I've got some C'tissian betrayer armies to annihilate, and the time feels right to take a crack at Mictlan's huge fortress... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[KissBlade]

Hey now, I scripted a rather huge army too =P

[Ygorl]

Where'd you send it? I'll try to send you a welcoming party...

[KissBlade]

I forgot, the squad's rather easy to spot though.

[puffyn]

I would just like to second what Djo and Ygorl said -- it was a very fun game, and thanks to everyone who made it so, particular our intrepid hosts. Hopefully we can get a similar game going with Dom3 in a while, perhaps a Council/Yarnspinners type hybrid. I say "a while" because I think Apep needs some time sunning himself on a beach somewhere to recuperate from all this fightin' and propositionin'. Oh, and to play some Dom3 to figure out how best to crush you all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

In the spirit of completeness, I have written Ygorl a poem. It's posted on the proclamations (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proclamations) page. Enjoy!

-Puffyn

[djo]

Though the Council of Wyrms has grown quiet;
There's one honor left to bestow; It
Gives me great pleasure to say it--
That Apep's our laureate poet!

[Whollaborg]

Dear Fellow Wyrms,

As the game seems to end now,

We thank thee from the depths of ancient Atlantis.
Thank you for playing the Council of Wyrms. It has been a pleasure.
We Thank thee.

-Leviatan Mato aka Whollaborg

P.S. Global Priority mail from United States Postal Service just arrived and Wholla!
Dominions III appeared from the envelope!
All praise mighty Leviatan Mato!

[Ygorl]

I got the global password from Alneyan. It is "Starling". Ermor really *is* scary!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thanks again to everyone for a fun game. The last turn is attached.