The Council of Wyrms

[The Panther]

I am announcing a new mega-MP game. This will be totally opposite from my last mega-game (RAND). Diplomacy will be crucial to winning this game. The following are the rules:

1. Diplomacy will be controlled by the Council of Wyrms. Any nation who selects a wyrm pretender will have a vote on the Council. If your wyrm dies in battle, you lose your vote until he is resurrected. If you select a non-wyrm pretender, you will never have a vote.
2. Any attack by any nation upon a province controlled by another nation must first be cleared by the Council. You may state your case before the Council, and you should try to be as persuasive as possible.
3. The Council has 24 hours to vote on a proposal. The game hosting will be delayed until after the ruling when a proposal is before the Council. The proposals must be worded such that the choices are either yes or no. Wyrms may abstain, and a failure to vote will be treated as an abstention. The proposing player may vote for his own proposal only if he has a wyrm pretender alive at the time of the vote.
4. When a wyrm is out of town for business or pleasure, he may either get a sub or designate another wyrm as his proxy if he so desires. Votes on weekends and perhaps some holidays will be extended to 48 hours.
5. A proposal must gain at least a tie vote (abstentions do not count) in the Council to succeed.
6. Bribes, vote trading, pre-vote solicitations, retaliation threats, discussions, etc., are all allowed. Anything goes.
7. Any nation that attacks another nation without approval of the Council becomes a rogue nation. All other nations are allowed to attack a rogue nation anytime and anywhere without requiring a Council vote.
8. Rogue nations can be removed from rogue status only with a proposal plus a ruling from the Council. Rouge nations are not allowed a vote in Council until removed from rogue status.
9. AI nations are always a rogue nation.
10. National defense is allowed at any time. If a neighbor wins a Council vote against a player, the losing player may defend his threatened territory however he sees fit. However, the defending player may NOT attack any provinces owned by the attacking player without a Council ruling. Once the territory in question is lost, the defending player may not retake it without a Council ruling. If the attacking player cannot take territory ownership (or have a fort under siege) within 3 months, then he loses the opportunity to win the province until another proposal succeeds before the Council.
11. Provinces that revolt against a ruler are fair game to anybody. If multiple players attack such provinces (or any other independent province for that matter), the winner of such a battle becomes the rightful owner, no matter where it is located. The sole exception is the capitols. Other nations may not take advantage of a successful revolt against an enemy national capitol without a Council ruling.
12. Provinces with one player owning a fort and another player owning the province remain contested until one nation controls both. Either side can commit any forces in such situations until ownership becomes clear.
13. Attacks on white provinces are allowed anywhere and anytime and from any nation. First come, first serve.
14. Attacks that convert an owned province to neutral (such as Ghost Riders) are not allowed without a Council ruling.
15. Spies, stealthy preaching, creating unrest with stealth, and assassinations are all fair game since those acts do not result in province ownership change. Stealthy attacks on enemy provinces are prohibited without a council ruling. Of course, if you annoy a neighbor too much, he could perhaps retaliate in Council with proper evidence.
16. Other matters may also be brought before the Council, such as turning a nation AI, squelching a nation due to excessive Council requests, designating a permanent sub for a departing player, etc. In fact, you may bring anything you want to a council vote, such as: "Vanheim owes me a Dwarven Hammer because I can't make one myself!"

I hope to get a full 17 players for the game. If so, the game will be played on Orania with the standard preset starting positions. I will host the game as PBEM on MWF evenings (in general), unless we can get a non-playing host to volunteer. Because Pangaea is the only nation I have yet to play in MP, I am claiming that nation henceforth.

Abysia ... Cainehill
Arcosephale ... Reverend Zombie
Atlantis ... Whollaborg
Caelum ... Zooko
C’tis ... Huntsman
Ermor ... Quantum Mechani
Jontunheim ... Wish for Blood Slaves
Machaka ... Arralen
Man ... ygorl
Marignon ... djo
Mictlan ... puffyn
Pangaea ... Panther
Pythium ... RonD
R’lyeh ... Izaqyos
T’ien Ch’i ... Tauren
Ulm ... Pasha Dawg
Vanheim ... Morkilus
Alternates/subs ... YC boron Archaeolept Naresh

Game settings:
Map Orania
Starting Provinces 1
Indy strength 8
Magic Sites 50
Richness Poor
Events Common
Graphs Enabled
HoF 15
Research Very Difficult
Victory Condition 17 VPs
Master password Enabled
Renaming Allowed
Cheat Prevention Active
Mods Zen 4.0

Astute players will note that low resources greatly favor the death themes that kill population and get free spawns. These will therefore be prohibited. What this means is that Ermor must play Broken Empire and Pangaea cannot play Carrion Woods.

Also, I will use the master password (on Turn 1 only) to publish a full report on the pretender design of all nations. We will have to rely on the honor system for a player declaring that his wyrm has died in battle.

The magic site setting will be used to counterbalance the advantage of the blood nations on these settings. I am thinking that somewhere in the 35-65% range makes sense, based on my game tests with these settings. I do not want it real high because then the late game will be too much dominated by gem income and it would really hurt base Ulm plus some other low magic themes.

Tauren tested Abysia on these settings (with 50% magic) and there appeared to be no clear advantage in the early and middle game for blood hunting. The big problem for all nations (including the blood hunters) is the lack of money with which to buy commanders. Indy 8 battles are very tough for everybody. The powerful wyrm really helps here, but you do run the risk of your pretender dying in battle.

As for the victory condition, 25% of the provinces does seem low. However, this will likely be difficult to achieve due to the Council. I am guessing that the only way to win is to stay in the Council until you get strong enough that you believe you can go rogue. Then you will need to blitz your way to victory in the hopes of winning before the Council members can take your own territory away.

As for the Council, I would ask that one player volunteer to maintain the Council on another web site, kind of like we are doing on Yarnspinners 2. I will have my hands full with hosting and do not want the added problem of running the Council site.

Of course, I am open to discussion on the rules and settings. Additions, deletions, modifications, and opinions are all welcome.

[quantum_mechani]

As great as wordplay is, I think from a fun and thematic point of view giving human pretenders the voting privileges would be better.

[High_Priest_Naresh]

yeah I'll play... sign me up as either abysia or caelum
and i also have a few questions
1. say you want to do a sneaky attack you would have to tell every one about it right? wheres the fun in that!
2. humans, are they rogue or just no votes?
3. why not have the council here?
4. mods what does zen mod 2 allow?
thanks
Naresh-will conquer

[archaeolept]

map?

also, c'tis DT would be banned as well, would it not?

anyways, it sounds like a cool idea. I'd like to try c'tis. never played them in a real MP game, and they're so cute http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[RonD]

I have a bad feeling that the poor world is going to feel like a real slog.

But what the heck.

Pythium

[High_Priest_Naresh]

I have decided... caelum
Naresh-will conquer

[The Panther]

You do not have to select a wyrm. If you do not, then you will not be labeled as rogue unless you disobey the will of the Council. It only means that you will never be able to vote in council. You can still bring proposals before the council, but you can't even vote for your own proposal.

By the way, the wyrm is the only pretender available to all 17 nations.

Also, I don't think I have ever played an MP game on a poor world. And yes, it is a VERY hard slog in my SP test games. As I said earlier, the wyrm helps an amazing amount for this, though it is quite risky to use him solo.

Sneak attacks are outlawed per the rules. They are not very useful anyway in that all they do is annoy the recipient unless you are at war with someone (in which case they are very useful).

As for using this forum for the Council, I see a heck of a lot of discussions on the Council, especially in the mid and late game. We must have a better method of organizing this then a forum which only allows time-linear posts. There are plenty of computer literate folks out there that could make a great site to take care of this. I hope, anyway.

As for the mods, it is Zen's 4.0. There is a ton of discussion about these mods on the other forum. You can read about it over there to your hearts content.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
You do not have to select a wyrm. If you do not, then you will not be labeled as rogue unless you disobey the will of the Council. It only means that you will never be able to vote in council. You can still bring proposals before the council, but you can't even vote for your own proposal.

By the way, the wyrm is the only pretender available to all 17 nations.

Also, I don't think I have ever played an MP game on a poor world. And yes, it is a VERY hard slog in my SP test games. As I said earlier, the wyrm helps an amazing amount for this, though it is quite risky to use him solo.



The Wyrm may be the only pretender available for all 17 nations, but every nation has human pretenders as well. Oh, and if you do insist on wyrms instead of humans, I claim BE Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

archaeolept said:
map?

also, c'tis DT would be banned as well, would it not?




As stated above, the map is Orania if we get 17 players.

I had orginally banned C'tis DT also, but my son pointed out that they do not get free spawns. The tomb worms must be summoned by an expensive unholy priest. On a poor world, it will be a long time to get very many of these guys. Tauren therefore convinced me to allow it.

Of course, since you picked the lizards, you can ban it by simply not picking them, which I personally think would be a great idea, especially for an expert player like you.

I did ban Carrion Woods from myself for similar reasons. The free troops on a poor world would be quite strong indeed.

[The_Tauren13]

Id like to claim T'ien Ch'i. All praise Kir'Doq, Conqueror of Life And Death, Ruler of the Stars, Eater of the Unholy, God of T'ien Ch'i.
C'tis Desert Tombs is not a true death theme. It does not kill population and get free spawns. It is no more a death theme than Broken Empire is.
Rule 3 states that the game hosting will be delayed for council rulings. This seems silly; Im sure there will be so many proposals by mid game that it would never host, and it is already a slow game. Also, there is no real reason any given proposal cant wait a turn for the results. Therefore I would suggest taking out the clause that states the game hosting will be delayed for council votes.

[The Panther]

quantum_mechani said:
The Wyrm may be the only pretender available for all 17 nations, but every nation has human pretenders as well.;)



The wyrm is non-negotiable, I am totally dead set on this. After all, the wyrm is the physically strongest pretender in the game, so why would they allow a lesser being into Council? Plus, there is always the endless arguments about what precisely constitutes a human pretender.

[The Panther]

The_Tauren13 said:
Rule 3 states that the game hosting will be delayed for council rulings. This seems silly; Im sure there will be so many proposals by mid game that it would never host, and it is already a slow game. Also, there is no real reason any given proposal cant wait a turn for the results. Therefore I would suggest taking out the clause that states the game hosting will be delayed for council votes.



I agree with this logic. In fact, without an inherent delay, you could use the game timing to decide whether to put in a proposal with less than 24 hrs to go or greater than 24 hours, depending on whether or not you want your planned opponent to be forced to make a move before a ruling is official.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

quantum_mechani said:
The Wyrm may be the only pretender available for all 17 nations, but every nation has human pretenders as well.;)



The wyrm is non-negotiable, I am totally dead set on this. After all, the wyrm is the physically strongest pretender in the game, so why would they allow a lesser being into Council? Plus, there is always the endless arguments about what precisely constitutes a human pretender.

Of course, it is your game, but because I love a good debate, here are some counterpoints:

It is a little difficult to define strongest, for instance a carrion dragon, even with no magic, would eat a wyrm for breakfast. If you define purely in terms of statistics, there are a number of pretenders such bulls, shedus or manticores that are quite comparable. If you ask me, defining the stringest is a lot fuzzier than defining human pretenders, which are pretty clearly anything with 10 pathcost.

But aside from all that I simply imagine that humans are much more apt to diplomacy, forming councils, and politics in general than wyrms.

[The Panther]

I have seen people claim werewolves are human, simply because they have 10 points per magic path. And many nations cannot get the werewolf.

I do understand your argument about us humans being the masters of diplomacy. However, I really like the general idea of a Council of powerful and mythical Wyrms making arbitrary but binding rulings. I especially like the idea that all nations can get them. For human pretenders, they are not all the same even though every nation can get one.

By the way, the wyrm IS the strongest pretender simply because it says so in it's thematic description. After all, we all know that those descriptions are gospel since they were written by God himself, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
I have seen people claim werewolves are human, simply because they have 10 points per magic path. And many nations cannot get the werewolf.

I do understand your argument about us humans being the masters of diplomacy. However, I really like the general idea of a Council of powerful and mythical Wyrms making arbitrary but binding rulings. I especially like the idea that all nations can get them. For human pretenders, they are not all the same even though every nation can get one.

By the way, the wyrm IS the strongest pretender simply because it says so in it's thematic description. After all, we all know that those descriptions are gospel since they were written by God himself, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It just says their might is awesome, and even dragons avoid them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As for the werewolf, she is human as defined by almost every human pretender only game. Just because she can be used as an expander if you really work at it doesn't mean she would be overpowered, or even a clearcut better choice than other human pretenders for the nations that can use her.

[The Panther]

quantum_mechani said:
It just says their might is awesome, and even dragons avoid them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




Ha! You are precisely correct! I just went and reread the darn thing. Shame on the ol' Panther for relying on his aging memory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

For the Carrion Dragon, he could almost surely beat the Wyrm in a one-on-one. But this is because the Carrion Dragon is immune to the dual death poison while the Wyrm is not immune to the dual sleep vines. However, the Wyrm has better fighting stats, which makes him physically more powerful (by Panther's Personal Definition). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As for the bulls and Shedu, the Wyrm would own them both big time since the Wyrm can't be trampled and the dual death poison would hurt them really bad. The Manticore (poison immunity) would be an interesting battle. I would like to see that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

As for the werewolf, she is not human, imho. Take a look at her stats and you will see that there is practically NO REASON to ever use the human form for her. Of course, I don't disagree that there are better human pretenders than the werewolf in many game settings and nations. I also wonder if the Freak Lord is human since the mage rides on a non-human mythical beast. The 10 magic path thing is somewhat arbitrary.

Were you, by any chance, on the debate team in high school? I should have been, for I too love a nice, amicable debate with no name calling or mud slinging.

[PashaDawg]

Hello!

I would like to join as Ulm, and I expect to be voted in as the Chairman of the Council. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

The one thought I have is that the Council should not have the power to force a player to AI. That is too drastic.

Also, I assume that a player becomes a rogue nation if he/she disobeys a resolution of the Council (e.g., Vanheim shall give Caelum a dwarven hammer).

Pasha

[The Panther]

Yeah! We got Pasha Dawg. However, I do wonder if having a lawyer on the Council is a good idea or not...

As for forcing a player to AI, I see your point. However, I hate to restrict the Wyrms on anything. I see them as all-omnipotent and all-powerful on all subjects. Since forcing a player to AI is both irrecoverable and quite drastic, it should be extremely difficult to get a vote in favor. I, for one, would never vote to force a player to AI just because he is rogue and it looks like he about to win. That would be dishonorable in the extreme and not what Dominions is all about.

However, I could vote to move a player to AI (or to a forced sub if one is avaliable) because he/she has quit playing and participating in the game. We all know this happens all too frequently in these mega-MP games.

And yes, if a player disobeys the rules of the council, then they become a rogue nation. Of course, there is always the defense of, "Hey, I don't have a Dwarven Hammer myself, nor do I have the research and gems to even make one! I ask to be given 5 months in which to obey this ruling!!!"

As for the Council Chairman, this would entail the creation (or least the maintenance) of the Council Website. Did you just volunteer for that???

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

quantum_mechani said:
It just says their might is awesome, and even dragons avoid them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




Ha! You are precisely correct! I just went and reread the darn thing. Shame on the ol' Panther for relying on his aging memory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

For the Carrion Dragon, he could almost surely beat the Wyrm in a one-on-one. But this is because the Carrion Dragon is immune to the dual death poison while the Wyrm is not immune to the dual sleep vines. However, the Wyrm has better fighting stats, which makes him physically more powerful (by Panther's Personal Definition). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As for the bulls and Shedu, the Wyrm would own them both big time since the Wyrm can't be trampled and the dual death poison would hurt them really bad. The Manticore (poison immunity) would be an interesting battle. I would like to see that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

As for the werewolf, she is not human, imho. Take a look at her stats and you will see that there is practically NO REASON to ever use the human form for her. Of course, I don't disagree that there are better human pretenders than the werewolf in many game settings and nations. I also wonder if the Freak Lord is human since the mage rides on a non-human mythical beast. The 10 magic path thing is somewhat arbitrary.

Were you, by any chance, on the debate team in high school? I should have been, for I too love a nice, amicable debate with no name calling or mud slinging.

If you want to disqualify the carrion dragon's vines as a special ability, not fighting statistics, you also have to disqualify the wyrm's poison. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you are arguing from a purely thematic perspective, I think both the freak lord and werewolf fit in just fine as humans. One is simply a human with large pet, the other has an unfortunate illness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Also, there is a reason to leave the werewolf in crone form, she has twice the precision that way, and for most battles not against indies, it is inadvisable to use her in melee anyway.

And no, I was never in a debate team either.

[PashaDawg]

The Panther said:
As for the Council Chairman, this would entail the creation (or least the maintenance) of the Council Website. Did you just volunteer for that???



Alas no. I have no such skills (nor the time to learn them).

Again, I would urge that the Council not have the power to banish players from the game. That is too much. To the extent a player "disappears", that should not be a matter left to the Council's discretion. (All other matters are not irrevocable.) Instead, it should be decided by a consensus of all players, just like in other games.

Making a player AI also goes against the principle that the ONLY sanction that the Council can impose is a declaration that a given nation is a "rogue."

Also, I think players will need to keep in mind that this sort of hardcore diplomacy wacked-out game will require an extra-high degree of good sportsmanship. If the council is unduly capricious, players could end up getting quite cranky and the fun would be lost. (I am almost of a mind that there should be some strict limitations to the "jurisdiction" of the council, but broad jurisdiction is probably ok as long as the Council's power is limited by its ability to impose only one kind of sanction.)

Pasha

[Ironhawk]

Hey, QM just pointed me to this game and I had a look through the rules and your thread. Even tho I'm not going to be playing due to time constraints I just wanted to point something out about the rules.

1) When even a couple of wars have broken out the council will be literally swamped with requests to attack provinces. Say there are three wars going at one time, so six combatants. Each combatant attacks and average of... i dunno 4 provs a turn? So you are wading through 24 proposals a turn (and all the diplo that entails) - and thats just for combat proposals.

2) The constraints on rogue behavior (no sneak attacks, all targets publicly announced) practically force a player to go rogue to wage any kind of meaningful warfare.

3) The penalty for being a rogue nation is not effective enough to deter it. Yes, council nations can attack you at will... but if you think about it, this is no different than a normal FFA game. And there is nothing stopping the rogue nation from getting NAPs with thier council neighbors.


I'd suggest that you amend the rules such that a nation only needs to petition the council for the ability to go to war with another nation. And, if granted, that the ability be time limited somehow.. say 5 turns or so. That way you:

1) dont clutter up your council system with reams of province attack requests

2) give combatants a freer hand in the day-to-day mechanics of warfare but still constrain the overall fighting in the world

3) make rogue status more rare tho still useful (like if you lose your vote to extend a war, or want to launch a sneak-attack preemptive strike)

just my 2 cents...

[High_Priest_Naresh]

I go along with iron hawk asking to attack would have alot of council ideas just one to go to war for 5-8 turns would be enough, then all players would know who is at war and guerilla war fare would be back in!
and what does NAP stand for anyway?
but what if you are playing say...
man, you get tramform you transfrom your self from a titan to a wyrm then what? would you get a vote?

[quantum_mechani]

High_Priest_Naresh said:
and what does NAP stand for anyway?
but what if you are playing say...
man, you get tramform you transfrom your self from a titan to a wyrm then what? would you get a vote?

NAP stands for non-aggression pact.

The transformation spell cannot result in a wyrm. Nor is there anyway other way to turn your pretender into one.

[High_Priest_Naresh]

thank you but how do you know what tranformation turns you into?
and what are the possibilites for it

[quantum_mechani]

High_Priest_Naresh said:
thank you but how do you know what tranformation turns you into?
and what are the possibilites for it

Somewhere there is probably a complete list, but about the most powerful thing you are likely to get is a cave drake. Other options include wyverns, fire drakes, ice drakes, basilisks, and other crossbreed results.

[shovah]

you could wish for a wyrm.... maybe you could just ask the council for attack permission for a certain number of turns and must after that time ask for more time if neccisary for the war,

i am very interested here but seems a bit too restrictive and my favourite nations have been picked.

[quantum_mechani]

shovah said:
you could wish for a wyrm....

Yes, but it would not have the pretender ability, so would not qualify.

[Arralen]

Check out about Transformation here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=255810&page=&view=&sb =5&o=) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I only got a Chimera, a Griffon, 2 Ice Drakes, a Boar, 2 Foul Spawn and Black Hawk when I tried it out.


I will host the game as PBEM on MWF evenings (in general) .. ok I ahould better read the whole thing thoroughly ...

[djo]

I really wish I had time for this game...

One thing you might want to do is have people declare wyrm/no wyrm when they join. If you don't get enough wyrms (2/3?), the system probably isn't going to work.

[Arralen]

This looks pretty much a like a Wyrm-only game to me:

- without Wyrm, no vote (how important this will turn out - no idea !? )


- difficult research,
- high indies
- low ressources
=> ..... everything in favour of a magic-less or buff-level-magic Wyrm Pretender used as SC from the very first turn

I would suggest either indies-6 or 9 - the later makes tough special troops/bodyguards and items on commanders much more likely, so there's some reward fighting strong indies.

Is there any 'penalty' for a Wyrm player that I overlooked?


EDIT: I nearly forgot : I'll take over Machaka, if noone objects !

[YellowCactus]

I want to be a wheeling, dealing, backstabbing, bloodsucking wyrm! Maybe there will still be room when I cave in to temptation...This is a great idea.
-yc

[djo]

YellowCactus said:
Maybe there will still be room when I cave in to temptation...
-yc



Sympathetic and still resisting...

[The Panther]

On the subject of wars, I see people asking for permission to go to war with another player to the bitter end. For example: "Pangaea is too weak to be allowed to persist in this world. I request to eliminate them from their miserable existence if I can. Give me 15 months to complete this mission." Or: "I request to take every province from Ermor on my side of the mountain chain because ..." Stuff like that. Anything goes, limited only by the players imagination and diplomacy skills.

And sure, NaPs are clearly allowed since they violate no rules. The difference is that two allied nations cannot attack a third without clearing it through the Council. This seems to be a big change to me.

Obviously, though, any NaP is instantly null and void if one of the nations goes rogue. I would love to have a NaP with a neighbor where I have a long, undefended border who decided to go rogue. Easy territorial expansion! Sure, a rogue nation might be able to convince a dangerous neighbor to delay an attack on them for a few turns with the proper bribe (like perhaps 50 gems, something QM actually got me to accept in order to call off a major invasion for 10 turns in a recent game). But a rouge nation runs a big risk with this, especially if it appears the rogue might be near to winning the game. There is nothing stopping the other player from taking the offer and then doing whatever they want to do anyway. After all, rouge nations have no status in the Council and would get very few sympathy votes.

I am open to opinions about the rogue status. It can't be too severe such that a player won't be able to go rouge and still win the game. It also has to be totally enforcable within the mechanics of the game.

On the subject of the wyrm pretender, it is an excellent and very powerful pretender under the Zen mods at only 75 points with a very nice 3 dominion. He also is completely versatile with respect to magic, allowing any school(s) that any nation might want. The only drawback is that you won't be able to get a lot of magic or artifacts on him, so he will be more of a fighting type God instead of the typical near-unbeatable VQ or Virtue type of SC (which is not necessarily a bad thing). You can also easily get a single bless with the wyrm. Heck, even a dual bless is possible if you want to totally trash your scales. I have been testing the N9 wyrm for my white centaurs, and it can definitely be made to work even on a poor world. The wyrm also gets afflictions at 25% the normal rate, and he has a very hard time losing all 4 of his eyes.

I expect that pretty much every nation will get the wyrm. I would be very surprised if someone didn't. I mean, why would they sign up in the game if they don't want to participate in the Council? Without a wyrm, how can you accept bribes or trades for your vote? Without a wyrm, how can you vote against a neighbor that wants to invade you?

On the victory condition, my son pointed out that merely sieging a fort puts the province on your side for the province count determination. He could envision a player with maybe 40 provinces doing a blitz using enough mages (or fliers) with a couple of devils each to siege 35 forts in one or two turns. That is not what I had in mind to win the game.

I agree with Iron Hawk that the rules need to be modified. They are now different than my original thoughts on the subject due to all the excellent input I have been receiving.

[The Panther]

djo said:
I really wish I had time for this game...




Actually, you DO have time for the game. The hosting schedule is Monday, Wednesday, Friday at about 9 PM Mountain Time. I have noticed that a 17 player game cannot move faster than this anyway except maybe for the first 10 turns or so. And as the host, I know I would not be able to move faster either with all the emailing I will be doing.

Also, djo, I was hoping you would have time to put together a nice website for the Council, kind of like you did for Yarnspinners 2. You have plenty of time, for it will probably be another 2 weeks or so to get this game off the ground. You would surely have my vote for Council Chairman if you do this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[djo]

The Panther said:

djo said:
I really wish I had time for this game...




Actually, you DO have time for the game.

Also, djo, I was hoping you would have time to put together a nice website for the Council, kind of like you did for Yarnspinners 2.



I can't take credit...the site was puffyn's (with I believe Sedna's help). Once it was up, I did some work in shaping the wiki, but the hard work was theirs. I don't actually have a server I can host that kind of things on.

Still resisting...but the nation(s) I'm eyeing are still unclaimed...

[The_Tauren13]

The only thing I would say about rogue status is to make an amendment that states: "All diplomacy, trade, and other agreements with rogue nations are null and void.". That way you can break agreements with them without it hurting your reputation for future games.

[WraithLord]

This sounds like a very interesting setting.
I would like to join the party http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Please give me control of lovercraft's hideous creations. R'lyeh if you please.

[The Panther]

Arralen said:
I would suggest either indies-6 or 9 - the later makes tough special troops/bodyguards and items on commanders much more likely, so there's some reward fighting strong indies.




Question: Is there a significantly higher chance of indy commanders with artifacts on 9 than on 8?

I really wanted indies hard, for the key to doing well in this game should be indy grabbing from the very start. We can't have people waltzing over them like they were mush.

I then backed off a bit because of the poor world. It will definitely be a hard slog for all players. One bad decision or bad battle result could set a player back for a long, long time if the wyrm dies. Mercs are VERY expensive given such low incomes for all nations. I expect people will be winning mercs with a minimum bid, even with 17 players!

I then settled on 8 because I have never had an MP game with this setting. I have had an MP game with 5,6,7, and 9 (the most frequent by far) setting. Besides, 8 happens to be my favorite number!

At this point, I am inclined to leave indies at 8 unless there is a general hue and cry about the sheer difficulty of the game settings.

[WraithLord]

I agree with the reasoning for strong indied. 8 is good, 9 (imo) better.

sorry for OT question but,
@djo, could it be by chance that your avatar is a GSP (germen pointer)?

[djo]

A reading suggestion for this game: "Tooth and Claw" by Jo Walton. It's a novel of mannered society a la Jane Austin, with politics and marriages and dowries, except everyone involved is a dragon.



izaqyos said:
@djo, could it be by chance that your avatar is a GSP (germen pointer)?



Actually, Dusty is a Brittany. The orange coloring is the give-away.

Our family has, however, had a couple GSPs over the years. If I ever change my avatar, I'll use one of them.

[puffyn]

Hrm, this looks like an interesting game... however, I really don't have time to play a third long-term dominions game. Really. Quite too busy. Way, way too busy to even consider it. (I'll think about it.)

I would however be willing to create a similar site to the Yarnspinners 2 (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org) site, since it was not hard to set up and I have the server space just sitting there, begging to be used for Dominions related program activities.

[Cainehill]

Sounds like fun - I'll join in as, mmm, Abysia.

[Boron]

You have some very interesting ideas there. Too bad that my new semester soon begins and i am still in the faerun nightmare http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif. So i have to pass also but i will probably follow the gamethread closely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[The Panther]

puffyn said:
I would however be willing to create a similar site to the Yarnspinners 2 (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org) site, since it was not hard to set up and I have the server space just sitting there, begging to be used for Dominions related program activities.



This is a SPLENDID idea. It would be great if you would do this, puffyn. I would even vote you in as Chairman of the Wyrms (after you decide to join and pick a nation) so you can maintain the council site for the game. However, I would also be willing to vote for any other volunteer to run the council after the web site is up and running (Pasha?). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Alneyan is not going to play in the game, but he volunteered to be the Chief Justice of the Wyrms. He will set up the first turn and pick a Master Password. After that, he will turn the Fatherland file over to me so I can host and email the turns to everybody.

PLEASE NOTE: All players MUST have a password on their pretender so I cannot view your turns.

In case of disputes, I can mail the appropriate files to Alneyan so can use the Master Password to check for truth. For example,
Caelum: "Hey, I never did get the dwarven hammer from Vanheim in exchange for my vote!"
Vanheim: "I sent it!!!"
Arcosephale: "Wow, how did I build this nice hammer when I don't even have an E3 mage?"

We can also use the Chief Justice to make a ruling in case Pasha's fears are realized and the Council becomes too capricious. For example:
Mictlan: "I request that Marignon must give 20 gold to everybody since he is so filthy rich", figuring enough greedy wyrms will want the gold to make it possible to win the vote.
Chief Justice: "I rule that Mictlan must give 100 gold to Marignon for making a frivilous request."

[High_Priest_Naresh]

fine by me!
who says wyrms and evil little ferocious beasts!
(me!)
but who says Im going to be one...

[Alneyan]

The Panther said:
Alneyan is not going to play in the game, but he volunteered to be the Chief Justice of the Wyrms. He will set up the first turn and pick a Master Password.



My name was merely submitted for the office of Chief Justice: my candidature is currently waiting for confirmation in Senate. I fear that getting the necessary votes might prove to be difficult, so you ought to consider naming someone else to fill the vacancy.

All bribes shall be sent to the usual address.

[PashaDawg]

Alneyan said:
My name was merely submitted for the office of Chief Justice: my candidature is currently waiting for confirmation in Senate. I fear that getting the necessary votes might prove to be difficult, so you ought to consider naming someone else to fill the vacancy.

All bribes shall be sent to the usual address.



The good news is that the French have a long history of corruption-free politics, and so no bribes will be necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

PashaDawg said:
The good news is that the French have a long history of corruption-free politics, and so no bribes will be necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



This must be very deep analysis from some archaic, New England legal journal which I never heard about before. Or it is lawyer/diplomat speak??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Jurri]

I'd guess it's more sarcasm than anything!

[Arralen]

Rule 17:

No Wyrms into death match !

[quantum_mechani]

Arralen said:
Rule 17:

No Wyrms into death match !

I don't think they can, without hand slots.

[shovah]

i thought they could, havnt tested it with latest patch though

[PashaDawg]

Jurri said:
I'd guess it's more sarcasm than anything!



JURRI!!!!! How could you SAY THAT????

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jurri]

Well... It looked like Panther was in doubt... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Btw, I'm reasonably certain that I've seen plenty of instances of critters without handslots participating in the deathmatch; not in the latest patch, undoubtedly, but has it been changed at any point, then? Wouldn't really make sense to me.

Why shouldn't the wyrms be allowed in the deathmatch, if it's possible? I should suggest instead giving the reigning deathmatch champion a limited veto, or other diplomatical benefit: it's a unique event and as it is, no one is interested in it. Something could be done to make it more cool by house rules, just to make things more interesting. Then, I guess nothing stops the Council from passing a statement that everyone must pay 100g to the winner of the match, if that's whats desired, so it really needn't be enforced in the rules... Just thinking out loud, never mind me; I'm guessing this will be a highly interesting game! (And a terrible timesink, so not for me, but still.)

[Wish]

has anyone claimed man yet? if not i'll do so. also I ran a search in the mods forum for zen 4.0 but could not find it.

[djo]

OK, I'll take Marignon. I knew it was inevitable when I realized I had named not only my pretender, but also each of his two heads.

If puffyn hosts another wiki for this game, I'll do my share in helping to get it organized.

WfBS: I believe Zen 4.0 is what is called "Conceptual Balance" over in the mod forum (and is now at 5.0).

[Wish]

so are we doing 4.0 or 5.0?

[Ironhawk]

Hehehe. After all the rule revisions I'm totally jealous of everyone who is playing now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sadly I just really wont have time.

[Arralen]

Wyrms in deathmatch

- just tested: A Wyrm can enter deathmatch (o.c.). It gets 100Exp + x Exp (from hits). It does not get the trident, though.

- Haven't tested if it's obliged to enter then next deathmatch, though

- a bug: A blind Wyrm can hit his adversary regularly, at least in deathmatch

Why not
Why should a Wyrm attend a deathmatch? It's a WYRM. The ruler-of-all. It doesn't have to prove it can eat others for breakfeast, right? Besides, such activities are such common - how could any self-respecting Wyrm attend to them and go back to the council to meet his kin?

Frankly, I searched for something -however small- that would speak for not playing a Wyrm in this game.

[Alneyan]

Dear Pasha,

I would recommend that you address me with all due respect, for otherwise I might be annoyed with you. Have you checked if you have the ability to participate in this game without creating a conflict of interests, given your other activities? Did you register your possession of special abilities (we shall label those abilities as being lawyerliness) in Council? Did you check the penalties for defamation against a Justice of the Council? I thought so.

Therefore, it is the opinion of the court that the aforementioned Pasha should adopt a more fitting demeanour: failure to comply with this ruling shall result in the termination of the offending individual.

[PashaDawg]

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Dear Alneyan:

Do not forget that the Council is a separate and independent branch of government, and that you can be impeached by a vote of the Council. You serve as a matter of our legislative grace.

Thusly, you shall cease directing threatening remarks at my person or reputation.

However, in the interests of comity between our two independent branches of government, I shall agree to address you with all the pomp, respect and flourish that you rightly deserve!

Pasha,
Divine Pretender and Council Wyrm for the Great Dominion of Ulm

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[djo]

The Right Honorable Wyrm from Ulm is surely exaggerating when he uses the words "legislative" and "grace" in immediate succession?

[PashaDawg]

No exaggeration at all. While I love the phrase "legislative grace," I was not creative in my use of it. Google the phrase, and you will see that it is a term in American and probably British law (for example, tax deductions are matters of "legislative grace" and can be abolished by the legislature, opposed to the right to free expression which is protected by the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.)

Nonetheless, I can't help but smile whenever I say it... "legislative grace"... I think everyone would start their day a little happier if they said it as a short mantra three times after drinking their first cup of morning coffee. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Alneyan]

How dare you even think of impeaching me! I hold that position to life, and you cannot disturb the due process of law: the judiciary is not tied up to the executive and legastive powers of Council.

Just in case though, I will pass a ruling stating that "Council cannot interfere in any way whatsoever with the actions of the Chief Justice, and may not infringe on the prerogatives of the Chief Justice, etcetera...". The results of the vote are 6 to 3: voting is a lot easier when you are the only one involved.

[djo]

PashaDawg said:
While I love the phrase "legislative grace," I was not creative in my use of it. Google the phrase, and you will see that it is a term in American and probably British law



I stand enlightened! I love learning new jargon and idioms...

[PashaDawg]

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Dear Alneyan:

There must be some checks and balances. If you abuse your exalted position, then you shall be removed therefrom forthwith! Unilateral rulings will get you nowhere.

Comity, Alneyan... Comity!

Lord Pasha,
Divine Pretender and Council Wyrm of the Great Dominion of Ulm

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[Alneyan]

What is the point of exalted positions, if you cannot abuse your power? Nobody would want them otherwise!

There are already some checks and balances, and far too many of them: Council had to agree to my being Chief Justice, and was aware of the full extent of powers granted to the office. Council may not override any of the rulings of the Court, for we rely on the very Covenant that gave Council its powers and legitimity.

Therefore, dismissing any duly nominated member of the Court without the assent of said Court is a direct violation of our prerogatives, and was ruled to be quite uncovenantionally in Pasha v. World, Maine v. France, Dawg v. State, and other similar cases.

Still, if you insist on check and balances, I might be able to give you a hand: I will send you the check you deserve as part of your dismissal clause, and I will throw a few balances in your general direction. I live to serve.

[PashaDawg]

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Dear Chief Justice Alneyan (May He Serve Wisely!):


Alneyan said:
What is the point of exalted positions, if you cannot abuse your power? Nobody would want them otherwise!


If I remember correctly, wasn't that Louis XVI's philosophy?

Concerning the case law that you cite, Pasha v. World, Maine v. France, Dawg v. State, my reading of those cases is that the Court ruled in favor of the Plaintiff (i.e., Pasha, Maine and Dawg) in all of them. Therefore, I am not quite certain that they are on point or support your argument.

Surely, the Court would agree that judicial restraint is the primary basis for allowing the judiciary to serve for life, but that if any particular judge disregards the necessity of such restraint, then he or she can be removed for abuse of office.

Lord Pasha,
Divine Pretender and Council Wyrm for the Magnificent Dominion of Ulm

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[Wish]

as much as you guys ar enjoying this impromptu play you have presented for ll of us wyrms, what is the point on arguing about the chief justice when a vote was never taken for appointment to the possition?

your show is only confusing the matter at hand which is and will remain the forming of the 17 nations, until the 17 nations are all formed.

and I am definately voting against the motion to make the chief justices matters untouchable

Nimhe Sidhe
Exalted Wyrm of the Empire of Man

[Truper]

It might be most amusing to join this game with a pretender designed specifically to *kill* Wyrms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Alneyan]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
what is the point on arguing about the chief justice when a vote was never taken for appointment to the possition?

and I am definately voting against the motion to make the chief justices matters untouchable




As if anyone else would volunteer for that position: it's not Chief Justices who get all the girls, you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nay, my position is the one of a glorified independent investigator, and hardly more than that. I will check, I will enquire as to what you were doing with that lovely lass yesterday in the evening, but that should be all.

I have quite a good deal of restraint, dear colleague Pasha. I could show you, in case you doubt my word.

[puffyn]

Esteemed Councillors,

I have set up a new wiki for the Council of Wyrms. There is nothing on it right now, so perhaps wiki-savvy wyrms like Djo should come up with clever ideas on how to organize the impending chaos.

The main page is located at: http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/ (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Main_Page)

I should note that this is a separate wiki from Yarnspinners 2, and as such you can create duplicate pages without fear of overwriting anything. See for example CoW Proclamations (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/Wyrms/index.php?title=Proclamations) and YS2 Proclamations (http://yarnspinners.improbable.org/index.php?title=Proclamations).

Unfortunately, for the small number of you who are also in YS2, you'll have to re-register for an account, this being a separate wiki. Registering is trivially easy (in the wiki, click in the top right corner where it says "create an account or log in"), and it allows easy identification of who's made changes without forcing us to decipher IP's, so I encourage all the players to do so.

For wiki newbies, try poking around the YS2 site to see how things work, and hopefully we'll write up some help pages explaining the complicated stuff, once there's anything complicated to explain.

Enjoy!
-puffyn

[djo]

Thanks much, puffyn!

I'll mess around a bit today. I'll post more in this forum about what a wiki is and how to play with it soon.

[djo]

I added a section on the CoW wiki about wikis in general, and links to help.

Go ahead and play in the sandbox area for practice!

[PashaDawg]

Thanks, djo!

[Wish]

I am wiki-literate, so I have added myself in the appropriate section

[Wish]

as things are still early I'd rather have jotunheim instead of man. thus instead of nimhe sidhe, I will be known as the wyrm lormungand.

[The Panther]

Wish - I changed your nation.

All - I will be coming out with a rules revision soon. The main item still open is the Victory Condition. I would like some opinions on one that is achievable but not too easy. I was thinking of changing to VPs, since that requires taking castles (unlike provinces).

Also, I think I will go with 50% magic sites unless somebody has a better idea.

We only need 5 more wyrms to get this game off the ground!

[Ironhawk]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
I am wiki-literate, so I have added myself in the appropriate section



Speaking of wiki literacy... has anyone put any thought into how proposals will be done in the wiki? I had an idea but hesitated to mock it up since I am a noob with wiki's. Didnt know if there was some kind of builtin voting mechanism? That would be optimal. Otherwise I was thinking you could just do it in text like:

Proposal A - Nation X thinks that Y and Z should happen
Nation 1 - Abstain
Nation 4 - Yea
Nation 8 - Nay
etc...

That also brings up the question: Are individual council votes public knowledge? If I put a proposal up and it gets shot down do I just see that there were 12 opposing votes, or do I get a list of nations who opposed?

[Ygorl]

I'll give Man a shot...

[archaeolept]

I do think this is a cool idea, and wyrms are fun ; ), but i'm going to have to bow out - I just won't have the time, sorry.

so c'tis is now open.

[High_Priest_Naresh]

I'm still Caelum right?
and just tell me when you need that pretender

[Wish]

we get one, we ose one :/

[Cainehill]

Might never get 17 players all at once. And if we do, it's all more likely that people will drop out, ask for delays as they travel, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Morkilus]

Would you accept a completely MP-n00b? I have, however, been reading the boards for a while and practice SP with the Conceptual Balance mods (the new, 5.0 version). I might need some help setting up for multiplayer, such as knowing -exactly- where to get the mods for the game. I would be happy to participate as a voting member; I love political games, and I loved reading the Yarnspinners wiki. I'm most familiar with Ulm, but I'm liking Vanheim atm (it's still open, right?)

[The Panther]

Newbs are welcome. You are not the only newb already signed up for this game. This may be a newb-friendly game anyway in that the Council will likely not cut any breaks for the experts.

Of course, you know by now that you must take a wyrm pretender to participate as a voting member. Wyrms are good for newbies in that they are so durn sturdy, they can live through the occasional attacking mistake. They can even survive all the way across the map when retreating, which is something very few non-flying pretenders can do. Plus the wyrm allows you to get any magic you want or none at all. I have recenty been testing the magic-less wyrm for these game settings and he does surprisingly well. For if a wyrm without magic dies, he loses no magic when he returns!

Vanheim is yours. That should be a decent race for these settings in that they can do a good bit of blood hunting when needed. Also the Smiths give you magic diversity for the necessary site searching.

[PashaDawg]

Hi Panther:

I agree with Cainehill that I would not worry toooooo much about having a full house. If no one jumps in my Friday, I say that we get moving!

Pasha

[Reverend Zombie]

I'd like in as Arco.

[High_Priest_Naresh]

Im a noob!!!

[Arralen]

We have noticed.


sorry, couldn't resist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Whollaborg]

Mighty Wyrms.

There is yet one Wyrm who is not invited to the Council and he's Leviatan of Atlantis.

We hope that our presence is not forgotten and we are invited into the Council of Wyrms.

[High_Priest_Naresh]

harsh... I meant it in a way that consoles him and not to make my self look bad!

[The Panther]

We need only two more players!

I am wondering why two of the strongest nations are still open. Obviously, people did not think that blood was overpowered in these settings or Mictlan would have been one of the very first taken (I am still not convinced of this, though I did not test any blood nations on these settings). I suppose C'tis is open only because Arch held it for quite a while when people were making their picks, for the lizards have long been known as a top Dominions nation.

Of course, these setting should also be favorable to Caelum with their under-priced mages, and I suppose it is good that we have a newbie playing it!

Or has the Zen mods done well with many balance issues and the top nations are not as clear-cut as they used to be?

I still owe everybody an update on the rules. I would like to have that done by the time we get our 17th wyrm.

[djo]

I noticed the blood choices, too. Jotunheim and Vanheim were also chosen late.

(Mictlan on a big map scares me as a newbie. C'tis I love, but I'm just finishing another game with it.)

And why was Arco (my alternate choice) chosen so late? You'd think with varied magic and healing priestesses, it'd be a #1 choice. When the all-wyrm game was first posited months ago, someone even suggested banning Arco!

[shovah]

im not exactly the best player (uber noob) but i'll join as mictain

[Morkilus]

I suggest everyone who is interested to check out Djo's page that he's so graciously set up for us (linked in his sig). I learned how to edit Wikis pretty quickly, and this would be a good resource to do our council-ing. It's not too hard to make a user page.

[PashaDawg]

So, Morkilus, isn't your avatar a picture of a ghoul from the old AD&D monster manual? It took me a while to finally figure out what it was.

[djo]

Morkilus said:
I suggest everyone who is interested to check out Djo's page that he's so graciously set up for us (linked in his sig). I learned how to edit Wikis pretty quickly, and this would be a good resource to do our council-ing. It's not too hard to make a user page.



Thanks, but let's not forget puffyn, who's actually hosting the site.

I hope to add more once Panther's rules revision comes out--I envision a main page listing proposals & voting results, and a page for each proposal with discussion and details of voting.

Plus, the "proclamations" page has been used to good effect in yarnspinners 2 for trash-talk and propaganda. Lots of fun!

[High_Priest_Naresh]

The Panther said:
Of course, these setting should also be favorable to Caelum with their under-priced mages, and I suppose it is good that we have a newbie playing it!



how am I supposed to take this?
Is this a compliment or an insult

[PashaDawg]

Take it in good faith, Naresh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[The Panther]

High_Priest_Naresh said:
how am I supposed to take this?
Is this a compliment or an insult



It is neither, merely a statement of fact. Actually, I am pleased that these game rules seem to make newbies to want to enter.

[Reverend Zombie]

djo said:
When the all-wyrm game was first posited months ago, someone even suggested banning Arco!



I have almost no MP experience with them, so they should be safe in my hands.

[djo]

Or unsafe...

"I don't know what happened, officer! I was sure the mystic was unloaded, and it just went off!"

[djo]

BTW, Rev, I went to grad school at the U of R. I enjoyed my time in sunny Rochester.

[Edit] The "sunny" part is sarcastic, the "enjoyed" part is not.

[Huntsman]

Hey, this sounds really interesting. Is C'tis still open?

[The Panther]

Huntsman said:
Hey, this sounds really interesting. Is C'tis still open?


It is yours! We are full up. Very cool indeed.

[The Panther]

OK, since we are all full up, here is the plan:

1. Everybody make a pretender by Saturday, 8 PM Mountain Daylight Time (-7 GMT), and email it to me: The_Panther(at)comcast(dot)net. Be very sure to put in a pretender password and put COW in the subject line. I will check each one and return those without passwords since someone is bound to forget.
2. Everybody needs to register on the Council site.
3. I will revise the game rules on the Council site.
4. We will vote in a Chief Justice. So far, Alneyan is the only candidate and he will win by default unless someone else volunteers.
5. We will need a Justice page on the site with some rules. Since justices serve for life, we must get this right. I will take a stab at this. (Refer to Maine v. France for applicable legal issues)
6. On Sunday, I will post the exact build of all pretenders on the council site. This ought to help all our newbies to see what other pretenders look like. We will then be able to determine how many council votes are available up to the max of 17. I predict all 17 myself, since there seems to be very few reasons not to take a wyrm.
7. Then, at the end of the weekend, I will send everything to our Chief Justice to make the first turn on Monday with his own master password. He will then send everything to me to host all subsequent turns. The planned schedule is Monday, Wednesday, Friday about 9 PM MDT. We might move a little faster for the first dozen turns, especially during the work week.

NOTE: We still need a victory condition. I would like some input here. I am leaning towards VPs right now, for I expect a lot of watch towers and a lot of forts being built, even on the poor world. VPs require storming forts while provinces do not, which is why I am not all that happy with provinces.

[djo]

My comments and questions:

- I very much like knowing the explicit date & time for hosting

- which Con. Balance mod? 4.0 or 5.0? or quantum might know, is 5.1 coming?

- which .map file is it, orania.map or oraniawar.map? just wondering...if there are predetermined sites/starts, I'd like to know as much as everyone else

- I'll play with the wiki as time permits...certainly this weekend

[quantum_mechani]

djo said:
- which Con. Balance mod? 4.0 or 5.0? or quantum might know, is 5.1 coming?


Hopefully I will have it released by the weekend.

Anyway, I have thought about it more, and I don't think I'm in this game long term. Think of me as an expander bot, setup a nice empire then hand it off to someone else. Boron might take it up after faerun is over, or someone else. And, of course, the slot is open for any last minute people that want to join.

[The Panther]

We should use Zen 5.0 since people need to be making pretenders now and can't really wait for 5.1.

The map is Orania with preset start positions. I simply added the identical preset starting spots from the Oraniawar onto the base Orania map.

[WraithLord]

The Panther said:
2. Everybody needs to register on the Council site.




Can you please elaborate what is the procedure for registering?

[djo]

Go to the link in my sig, click on "new account or log in". All you'll be asked for is a screen name and password. Everything else is optional (no email needed). You're done!

[Wish]

I hope we are not underestimating naresh, even those new to MP have the resources to manipulate their race to their advantage.

Panther could you put a good email address on the wiki for us to send our pretenders to?

[Huntsman]

Whollaborg said:
Mighty Wyrms.

There is yet one Wyrm who is not invited to the Council and he's Leviatan of Atlantis.

We hope that our presence is not forgotten and we are invited into the Council of Wyrms.



I am Wyrm. Hear me roa-, er, hiss!

Ok, so C'tis it is. I've never played em so let's see how badly I can screw it up.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

BTW, I just want to say now that I've read through this thread and signed up for the wiki I am *really* excited about the potential here! The role-playing, the homepage, the AAR's, the smacktalk, the diplomacy, etc.. To me, this is the type of game where Dominions really shines. In a game like this winning means next to nothing to me as I have far more fun merely participating in the ongoing RP stuff.

So anyway, I'm glad I saw this thread and was able to snag the last nation! Good luck to everyone and don't step on my tail...um, head...whatever! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Ironhawk]

Hehed, doh. And here I am, finally realizing that I just might be able to squeeze this game in and all the spots are full? *cry*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Oh well. Let me know if one frees up guys.

[The Panther]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
Panther could you put a good email address on the wiki for us to send our pretenders to?



It is done. Just click on my name on the COW site and up pops my email address.

[The_Tauren13]

Quantum might give up his spot... he didnt seem too thrilled to be playing.

[The Panther]

Huntsman said:
[Ok, so C'tis it is. I've never played em so let's see how badly I can screw it up.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif




I think that the wyrm is not cold blooded, so I would suggest you play base C'tis and avoid Miasma which would disease your own pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

Huntsman said:
[Ok, so C'tis it is. I've never played em so let's see how badly I can screw it up.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif




I think that the wyrm is not cold blooded, so I would suggest you play base C'tis and avoid Miasma which would disease your own pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Swamp survival keeps him from getting diseased.

[The Panther]

Wow, that's cool. Then the wyrm is truly versatile enough to handle any race or theme.

[shovah]

can we starve him with undead ermor?

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
We should use Zen 5.0 since people need to be making pretenders now and can't really wait for 5.1.




Don't think they'll be making changes to the pretenders, so people could create pretenders with 5.0 and if 5.1 is out by the weekend, the game can start with that.

[quantum_mechani]

shovah said:
can we starve him with undead ermor?

Commanders cannot starve.

[djo]

The Panther said:
The map is Orania with preset start positions. I simply added the identical preset starting spots from the Oraniawar onto the base Orania map.



Does that work? The predefined sites in the latter seem clumped around a few of the start points of the former. E.g., the Jotunheim/Caelum/TC neighborhood seems rich.

As it is, 3 of the start sites fall upon (and presumably supercede) predefined sites. I ask does this work, because for all I know, people do this all the time with no trouble and I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Huntsman]

djo said:

The Panther said:
The map is Orania with preset start positions. I simply added the identical preset starting spots from the Oraniawar onto the base Orania map.



Does that work? The predefined sites in the latter seem clumped around a few of the start points of the former. E.g., the Jotunheim/Caelum/TC neighborhood seems rich.

As it is, 3 of the start sites fall upon (and presumably supercede) predefined sites. I ask does this work, because for all I know, people do this all the time with no trouble and I have no idea what I'm talking about.



Wouldn't random start points be more fun and interesting? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Ironhawk]

I spoke too soon. In a week or two I'm going to be going on a trip w/ my sick bro and I doubt I will have internet access. So take me back off the waiting list again :}

[Arralen]

I strongly object VPs as victory condition. Depending on where you start on Orania, you can easily hold 5 VPs with 17 provinces, or none at all - they are too unevenly distributed.

Btw. I don't like the preset starting positions as well ...

[Morkilus]

PashaDawg said:
So, Morkilus, isn't your avatar a picture of a ghoul from the old AD&D monster manual? It took me a while to finally figure out what it was.


That it is... one of my favorite books in my library, as if you couldn't tell from the duct-taped back, missing corners, and various flavors of salsa and soft drink keeping the whole thing together.

I defer to my multiplayer-betters to decide on the best Victory conditions. So we don't need a new map for download? There is at least one funny connection in the Orania map I have; I'm wondering if there's a new version I don't know about. And props to Puffyn; I didn't mean to leave you out of my praise!

[djo]

Arralen, are you opposed to VPs in general, or the preset Orania ones in particular?

Someone (could be me) could edit orania.map to remove the VPs, then we could let the game do random start points and (if desired) random VPs. Since pretender design will be made public, no reason why random start points can't be public, too.

I wonder if VPs might be too hard to get council authorization to take. Attention would be too focused--if you ask for a vote to go to war, it's unpredictable how many provinces you're going to get. But if you vote to go to war for a VP, it's pretty obvious your possible benefit (making it more likely you will be opposed). I guess either way the "get close to victory and go rogue" option still exists.

[Huntsman]

Re: Start points - I vote for random starting positions and announcing them after the game begins.

Re: VP's - Random placement of VP's could potentially be even less balanced than it already (seemingly) is so if I had to choose, I'd say let's keep the preset VP's. And with random starts we all have an equal chance to be in an advantageous spot. I would leave the rest to the Council's good judgement with regards to Wyrm's wishing to conquer any points....

[The Panther]

As for VPs, I had planned to put in 34 pre-placed ones and remove all the existing ones. Each capitol would have one plus there would be one quite near each capitol. This ought to give all players 2 VPs each right off if they can quickly get the one close to them. I was also going to examine the positions and put the second VP in the likliest spot that each player would want to build their second fort, or (far more attractive) just ask each wyrm where they want their second VP province. The victory condition would be to capture four more players worth of VPs, or 10.

This works only with pre-placed start conditions. One thing about random starts is the unbalance. In RAND, there are some starting spots that have immense tracts of unclaimed lands in many directions while other players are literally surrounded from the very start. Getting surrounded in this game might not be as bad as it is in RAND, for you might get some sympathy votes from the Council. However, being surrounded means you cannot hope to get your share of the neutrals early on and you will be small and weak for a long time.

I was also planning on eliminating all the preplaced sites in the special provinces, or just getting rid of the specials all together to make it more balanced. I don't think the actual pre-placed start locations on the map are all that unbalanced on Orania, though I could be wrong. I even think people perhaps ought to be able to request moving their start spot by one province in any direction if they want.

I too prefer provinces as a game setting. If not for the fact that merely seiging a fort gives you the province towards a victory goal, then provinces would be a no-brainer. Perhaps other people don't see this as a problem like I do. Perhaps we can simply increase the total provinces required to win to get past this issue.

There is one other possible victory condition that makes sense: NONE! A player merely claims they have the game won and puts it to a Council vote. This is the most thematic plan but will make for a VERY long game. If we have subs waiting in the wings for when people want to (or must) quit playing or simply disappear, then this might work.

Maybe we should have a vote on the related issues of victory condition and random starts and specials.

Morkilus - What is the funny connection in Orania? I will look into it and fix it.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:
This works only with pre-placed start conditions. One thing about random starts is the unbalance. In RAND, there are some starting spots that have immense tracts of unclaimed lands in many directions while other players are literally surrounded from the very start.




As far as I could tell in a few tests yesterday, the random start positions are no different than the preset ones. IOW, the randomizing function seems to utilize the preset start locations anyway. The only random element is which nation goes where. So regardless, you're still going to have big tracts of land around some nations while others are all boxed in.

Edit: my bad, I was using OraniaWar for my testing. But anyway, you could still use the method below for randomizing without messing with the preset start locs.

Or, you could just randomize the start locations yourself outside of the game using your own presets. Write all the nation names and preset start locations on small pieces of paper. Put the nations in one hat and the starting locs in another. Shake. Pull a nation and then a start loc. VIOLA! Random start location #1. Repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[djo]

I like Panther's plans. I would *not* ask where people want VP#2, though. Do it yourself.

The prepositioned sites, I don't know...they aren't well distributed, but the map has such nice icons for them.

Win by council vote, I'd rather not go down that road!

In general, I think you ought to decide on reasonable settings and just start it. Trying to get consensus w/17 players would be time-consuming.

[Morkilus]

Panther - The "funny connection" in Orania is from 78 to 88; there is no border between the two, yet it is accessible in one step. I don't know if this is a problem, it is just annoying if you don't know about it/forget about it. I suggest you start the game with whatever settings you feel are fair, like djo says. I kinda like the flavor and special indies of the victory point provinces; gives me more to write about. I just sent my Pretender in! (my password in a separate email).

[Huntsman]

Knowing whether we're going with the preset positions or not will have an impact on my pretender design so I hope we have a decision soon. Not much time left!

Also, Panther, please tell me you've done away with the "Chillsick Swamp" in C'tis's regular starting position? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[The Panther]

Morkilus said:
I just sent my Pretender in! (my password in a separate email).



You don't send me or anyone else your password.

[The Panther]

Ok, here is the plan. We might as well keep it simple.

1. We will use random start positions. I will also take out all special provinces from the map and add in a lot of #nostart positions to try and spread out the nations.

2. Each capitol (and capitol alone) will have a single victory point. The victory condition will be 5 VPs, meaning you have to keep your own capitol plus take any 4 others. Capitols are notoriously hard to take, so it should be fairly difficult to do this.

How does this sound? Any big objections?

[Huntsman]

Panther, that sounds good to me. Thanks for putting this all together.

[PashaDawg]

Sounds good.

[Reverend Zombie]

Sounds...mmmm...about average. Go for it, I say.

[Cainehill]

Well, nice thing about capitol only VPs is you can scan the map quick when you start the game - if a couple nations / VPs are too close together (or one or two are all alone for 20 leagues) you could start it again.

[Arralen]

There's another error in the Oriania map file:

#2 should be mountains, not plains ...

[Arralen]

proposed rules - some remarks/suggestions

Draw a clear line between in-game rules and the council of wyrms, and (outside) players decisions.

Atm, both is mixed up, and twenty years experience of board- and PC-MP-gaming tells me that is begging for trouble. Big trouble.

E.g.:<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Rule 6.
A proposal must gain at least a tie vote
abstentions do not count) in the Council
to succeed. The only exception is turning
a player to AI. Because this is irreversible,
AI votes require 80% of the votes to suceed.</pre><hr />

So a player who did not choose (for whatever role- or gameplay reasons) a wyrm as a pretender, can't even vote against himself thrown out of the game?? You must be joking !

Furthermore, there are some rules which can't be enforced, as there will be no evidence if someone broke them. That isn't that bad, if they are only 'in-game' rules, as it may lead to some serious and interesting role-playing and strategic decisions.
E.g. what if some casts "Ghost Riders" on his neighbours province, whom he is not at war with and whom he cannot attack without council ruling:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Rule 15.
Attacks that convert an owned province
to neutral (such as Ghost Riders) are
not allowed without a Council ruling.</pre><hr />

As long as everything stays 'in-game', there will be some suspicions, and (maybe wrong) accusations, but no wyrm will ever know for sure.
But if you'll have the 'referee' check the turn files, you're taking it out of the game, and in between the players. And thing will get very personal then, and the game will be over before it has really begun.

So, please, give this another look and devide the rules into 'game rules' and 'council rules', just to make a clear distinction between what is role-playing and what is real-world code of conduct.

Stefan

PS: And, o.c., wyrms should not be allowed into Death Match !

[Huntsman]

Arralen said:
Furthermore, there are some rules which can't be enforced, as there will be no evidence if someone broke them. That isn't that bad, if they are only 'in-game' rules, as it may lead to some serious and interesting role-playing and strategic decisions.
E.g. what if some casts "Ghost Riders" on his neighbours province, whom he is not at war with and whom he cannot attack without council ruling:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Rule 15.
Attacks that convert an owned province
to neutral (such as Ghost Riders) are
not allowed without a Council ruling.</pre><hr />

As long as everything stays 'in-game', there will be some suspicions, and (maybe wrong) accusations, but no wyrm will ever know for sure.
But if you'll have the 'referee' check the turn files, you're taking it out of the game, and in between the players. And thing will get very personal then, and the game will be over before it has really begun.

So, please, give this another look and devide the rules into 'game rules' and 'council rules', just to make a clear distinction between what is role-playing and what is real-world code of conduct.




I agree that a clear separation of "character" and "player" knowledge is critical for an RP game.

Using your Ghost Rider example above, there is definitely some interesting RP potential to be gained by keeping it "in-game" (ie, anonymous), as you say, since GR is indeed an anonymous spell and therefore the Council wouldn't know who cast it without actually having a "player" do some digging in the log files.

However, since this is an RP game we could certainly add some RP flavor by saying the council has the power to figure out who the culprit is--should they decide they really want to know--with a special "scrying" ritual (ie, digging into the log files).

We can add even more RP goodness by putting a cost on the scrying, say, 10-15 astral gems that must be paid by the wyrm that initiates the investigation. It could be the victim of the unsanctioned Ghost Rider attack or anyone else on the council that's interested in knowing.

And more more RP flavor, perhaps a majority vote is needed to even do the scrying ritual. Or perhaps there is a minimum participation (eg 10 wyrms) in the ritual but Wyrms aren't required to join, only if they're actually interested in knowing the answer. Or perhaps there is no minimum but anyone wishing to participate in the scrying must pay 10 Astrals and the results of the scrying would obviously only be privy to those that participated.

Anyway, point is, we can put an RP explanation on anything that constitutes "player" knowledge and even have some fun with it. After all, the point of the game (any game!) is to have fun and not get hung up on all the minor niggles (which will occur no matter how many rules you write).

[The Panther]

Actually, since ghost riders is anonymous, then you might be able to cast it and get away with it. However, it is required to be against the rules since it results in province ownership change. Using it therefore entails risk. If the receiving player can muster the 3 necessary votes, he can appeal to the Chief Justice to find the truth. Of course, the other wyrms might not care enough to help him here or maybe they are just glad it didn't happen to them, so there may not be enough votes for an appeal (and it would never be proved). The possibilities of intrigue and accusations are potentially endless. Since it is just a game played for recreation, I don't think it will get personal.

Keep in mind that everything that does not result in province ownership change is perfectly legal, even when it is reported by the game mechanics who did it. Assassinations, seeking arrows, fires from afar, murdering winter, all these things are legal and the receiving player has no recourse except through the Council or to return the 'favor' to the guilty party.

I agree about the AI thing being too harsh. This has already been brought up by Pasha Dawg. The council should never be able to throw an active player out of the game, and I do mean never! Throwing them out of the Council (rogue) is thematic. Throwing them out of the game (AI) is not. The AI rule was for a player that quits without explanation. However, it will become obvious to all wyrms that something must be done when a player disappears and stales 3-4 times in a row. I will therefore change this rule so that the Council cannot turn an active player to AI under any circumstances.

Hopefully, all have noticed that Version 2 of the rules was posted on the COW site. The main change was the last rule about the Chief Justice.

Also, since no one has proposed any other candidates, Alneyan will win the nomination for Chief Justice by default at 8 PM MDT this evening when the game officially begins.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:
Since it is just a game played for recreation, I don't think it will get personal.




Precisely! IMHO, "winning" takes a backseat to role-playing.

Now to get started on my pretender! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[The Panther]

As for the victory conditions and game setup, I looked at the map in great detail last night. Because it seems to me that a mere 5 VPs to win is much too few, I am now planning the following:

1. The starting spots will be fixed. However, I did notice (like several people mentioned) that the Orania War starting spots are not really very balanced, so I am working on a better 17 spots. This afternoon, I will announce the 17 province numbers of the starting locations and let interested people suggest changes.
2. The actual nation assignment to these 17 spots will be random. You have a 1 in 15 chance to get any single spot (1 in 2 if you are a water nation). The nation locations will not be publicly announced.
3. Each capitol will have a Victory Point. I will add a second VP province that is near each capitol, giving us 34 VPs to work with. I will publicly announce the province location of these 17 extra VP provinces.
4. The victory condition will be at least 1/3 of these, or 12 VPs to win.
5. All special provinces and preset sites are removed from the map.

[Alneyan]

I would suggest not to put the victory condition in the game itself, but simply a "100% of VPs needed". This should display how many VPs a nation have, allowing to keep track of that, while not creating an automatic endgame.

The difference would be meaningful if two nations were doing very well (both lacking a handful of VPs for victory), and a final grand conflict was preferred, instead of being a rush to snatch those two or three VPs.

In the other case, where a nation is clearly ruling over everyone else, automatic VP victory would be pretty much the same. Still, I know some SEIV games resulted in a bitter ending because of automatic victory conditions, and the same might be true here.

Not that I am actually playing in the game, of course, but the Supreme Court can give its advice, even when nobody requests it. Well, it wasn't possible until today, but I have just added that power to my list of attributions.

[RonD]

If we keep it in the RP context, then a Ghost Riders "verdict" could (should?) be purely by council vote. No special out of game scrying spell. If an innocent party gets convicted - well - oops.

[Morkilus]

The Panther said:

Morkilus said:
I just sent my Pretender in! (my password in a separate email).



You don't send me or anyone else your password.



Oops,I guess I misread your instructions. See? I might need some help... Well I trust ya, and at least you can find a sub if I become completely incapacitated. I'm excited to start playing! About Zen 5.0, though: it needs that Winged Boots fix or alot of people will be frustrated that they need 2 water path http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif Should I post my fix? It's all in the thread in Mods.

[Reverend Zombie]

RonD said:
If we keep it in the RP context, then a Ghost Riders "verdict" could (should?) be purely by council vote. No special out of game scrying spell. If an innocent party gets convicted - well - oops.



I like this idea, and do not like the resort to an omniscient out of game judge for anonymous spells like Ghost Riders.

[djo]

A note on the wiki...

The recent changes page (I'm too lazy to link it) is very helpful, but the time &amp; date will make much more sense if after you register, you click "preferences" and set your time zone correctly.

It puzzled me for a bit, so someone else might want to know.

[The Panther]

I have attached the revised map file. You must download the attached file, put it in the map directory, and remove the .txt extension (which was necessary to attach it in this forum).

It was pretty tough spreading out 17 starting spots on the map, but I believe that I managed to do a decent job. I also put in the 17 VP provinces such that each one is two moves from only one single capitol. That was even harder. Also, each starting province has 5-6 connections on land and 7 connections for the two water spots. That was harder yet...

Anyway, here is the list of starting provinces and the nearest VP province:
10 21
28 38
32 55
47 58
89 75
97 105
104 83
128 92
147 123
160 183
171 161
185 156
202 188
210 216
260 229
261 232
263 12

The VP provinces are fair game for anybody of course. But since you start closest to the one listed above, you ought to be able to get there first. It turns out that I was able to put the VP province in the general direction of the most open territory from each capitol, plus it is also a nice spot for your second castle. They also will not steal resources from your capitol since there is an open province between them in every case.

I also did the following:
1. Removed the incorrect connection 78-88.
2. Added the connection 26-38 to help out the person who started in spot 6.
3. Added the connection 263-279 so that the VP in 12 would be two moves from the capitol in 263.
4. Eliminated all special sites and special troops.

Anyway, for all those energetic people out there, take a look at the map file and see if I made any errors.

Panther

[quantum_mechani]

Did you ever decide on site freq.? It seems to me with less gold there should be fewer gems for balance.

[The Panther]

quantum_mechani said:
Did you ever decide on site freq.? It seems to me with less gold there should be fewer gems for balance.



I suggested 50% and posted that on the COW site. No one ever said anything positive or negative about that.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

quantum_mechani said:
Did you ever decide on site freq.? It seems to me with less gold there should be fewer gems for balance.



I suggested 50% and posted that on the COW site. No one ever said anything positive or negative about that.

Ok, just last I checked it said TBA.

[Cainehill]

Hey - can the call for pretenders wait until Sunday morning? My boss was out of town this week, I'm working my butt off, and I have to meet him again today to discuss things before he leaves town again.

[The Panther]

OK, that's fine. Get it in as soon as you can. So far, I have 12 of the 17 pretenders.

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:
OK, that's fine. Get it in as soon as you can. So far, I have 12 of the 17 pretenders.



Sheesh, so I'm not the only slacker. But at least I got mine in an hour before the deadline! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Arralen]

Remark about mapmaking
Wouldn't it have been easier to use 17 "#start" commands instead of 262 "#nostart" commands ??

When placing starting positions, did you pay attention to the terrain of the neighbouring provinces? I think you didn't ... . Some nations rely at least initially on troops build with ressources, which they might not have if everything around is plains or grass.

Map errors
wrong connections:
39 - 60
42 - 60

terrain errors:
#2 should be normal
#10 should be small
#58 should be large
#143 should be large


Magic Sites Setting
Someone said sites 50 would be a good balance with bloodhunting.

Did a test game on poor Orania map: Gives not only very few resources, but low income as well. This will limit the numbers of blood hunters.

Found myself constantly cashing in fire and earth gems just to be able to buy more mages (no bloodhunting, though).

This might result in a very gem-centric game. I would suggest sites 40 or something.

[The Panther]

Arralen said:
Remark about mapmaking
Wouldn't it have been easier to use 17 "#start" commands instead of 262 "#nostart" commands ??

When placing starting positions, did you pay attention to the terrain of the neighbouring provinces? I think you didn't ... . Some nations rely at least initially on troops build with ressources, which they might not have if everything around is plains or grass.

Map errors
wrong connections:
39 - 60
42 - 60

terrain errors:
#2 should be normal
#10 should be small
#58 should be large
#143 should be large


Magic Sites Setting
Someone said sites 50 would be a good balance with bloodhunting.

Did a test game on poor Orania map: Gives not only very few resources, but low income as well. This will limit the numbers of blood hunters.

Found myself constantly cashing in fire and earth gems just to be able to buy more mages (no bloodhunting, though).

This might result in a very gem-centric game. I would suggest sites 40 or something.



OK, I don't know anything about map making.

1. This is the first I have heard about the #start command.
2. I did look at the surrounding terrain when making the start positions. I even changed terrains in a couple of places to try to make this better. However, it is not possible to balance this unless I change dozens of terrains. Each player will simply have the luck of the draw as to whether they have plains, swamps, farm lands, etc, around their capitols. There just is not anything that can be done about it. If you are relying on resources, then you had better select productivity. If you are relying on gold, select order.
3. I have no idea how to make a province large or small.
4. I believe that blood hunting will eventually rule because the poor world does NOT reduce population. There is just as many 5K population provinces on a poor world as on a rich world. Of course, getting the blood mages is not very easy and blood can't be traded for gold, so this may balance it out.
5. I too though 50% sites might be high, but never really heard any alternatives. I did a few tests at 40%, but the difference between 40 and 50 is not significant in 20 turn tests so I could not make any conclusions.

Arralen, If you want to take a stab at fixing up the map and attaching it, I would greatly appreciate this.


There are STILL 4 pretenders I have not yet received. These are:
Caelum
Ermor
Mictlan
Ulm

Send those in ASAP. I will be back from golf at noon today (unless I get rained out). I hope to see all pretenders by then.

Panther

[PashaDawg]

Hi Panther:

When I downloaded the amended map file, it's name was:

386182-COW.map.txt

I realize that I need to delete the ".txt", but should I also change the name of the map file to "Orania.map"?

Thanks for your efforts to get this game going! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Pasha

[Huntsman]

The Panther said:

2. I did look at the surrounding terrain when making the start positions. I even changed terrains in a couple of places to try to make this better. However, it is not possible to balance this unless I change dozens of terrains. Each player will simply have the luck of the draw as to whether they have plains, swamps, farm lands, etc, around their capitols. There just is not anything that can be done about it. If you are relying on resources, then you had better select productivity. If you are relying on gold, select order.




I agree with this. If you're a resource-heavy nation then you need to plan for it with high production and admin values. Same goes for nations which need lots of gold. What happens to them if they get stuck in mountains or swamp? Just have to plan ahead, IMHO.

AS far as gems go, everybody's gonna need em, either for summons or selling so I don't see any imbalances there as we'll all have the same opportunities to get a strong gem income going. Setting it lower would probably just mean more slog, no?

[Huntsman]

PashaDawg said:
Hi Panther:

When I downloaded the amended map file, it's name was:

386182-COW.map.txt

I realize that I need to delete the ".txt", but should I also change the name of the map file to "Orania.map"?

Thanks for your efforts to get this game going! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Pasha



You can name the file anything you want. It'll show up in the game as "Council of Wyrms" anyway since that's the name that was given "inside" the .map file.

[Arralen]

file name
Do not rename the file to "orania.map" - this would overwrite the original Orania Map with our tweaked version. And it would result in a "map not found" error in the game.
Use COW.map !!!

map commands
Got the command from Illwinters PDF "Dominions II Scenario and Map Editing" :
&gt; 6.4 #start &lt;province nbr&gt;
&gt; By creating at least one start location for each player,
&gt; every player will start at one of these locations.
in contrast to:
&gt; 6.5 #specstart &lt;nation nbr&gt; &lt;province nbr&gt;
&gt; Use this command to assign a specific nation to a specific
&gt; start location. Nation nbr can be found in table 1.

With #start, the game will assign one starting location to each nation randomly, while #specstart will give fixed starting positions.
The Yalun, the Tyrande and the 'Power of the Eye (arcoeye)' map use this command. Seems to work ok.

How to make provinces nostart, large or small?
5.5 #terrain &lt;province nbr&gt; &lt;terrain type&gt;
Sets the terrain of a province. The terrain is calculated
by adding certain numbers for different terrain types or
other attributes.
1=small, 2=large, 4=sea, 8=rivers, 16=mountain,
32=swamp, 64=waste, 128=forest and 256=farm.
Not all of these can be combined, e.g. you should
not make a province that is small and large at the same
time.
Add to this 512=nostart and 1024=manySites.
A #nostart command put into the map file will be converted by the map editor automatically.


reworking the map
No way I could get that done for Monday. Next year http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Sry. Family, laundry, some missing lines of code .. the usual stuff, you know ...

[The Panther]

So far, I have 2 magic-less wyrms, 11 wyrms with magic, and 1 red dragon. A quick look showed a lot of variety on the magic with only two L9 bless strategies. I am making an excel table and will ask djo to put it on the COW site when I am finished.

However, this means that I still need 3 more pretenders. I have sent an email or a PM to those missing players:

Caelum - High Priest Naresh
Ermor - Quantum Mechani
Mictlan - Shovah

If I don't hear from them soon, we may have to start looking for new players.

And thanks, Arralen, for the map info. I probably should have opened the map editing pdf file somewhere along the way. I have always been totally mystified by the province type numbers prior to now.

Now, if I can just find the time today during the baseball playoffs to make this spreadsheet. My golf game was rained out today so I do have a bit of time this morning.


Edit - Upon closer review, the human pretender was actually a dragon.

[shovah]

i sent mine in, just worried about some things after play testing. (but i have found some interesting 'strategies')

[djo]

The Panther said:
Now, if I can just find the time today during the baseball playoffs to make this spreadsheet.



As of Friday evening, I have time...

Excel is a good place to make the table. Make the file dial-up friendly in size, and I can work with it.

Are you putting themes in too? I'd like to see them. You can spot national themes via the recruit page, but is there any way to tell, say, "water cult" from the UI?

[shovah]

i like my fire+astral wyrm (usually also has 2 nature)cast body etheral+personal luck, then fire shield and astral shield, then resist magic (or anything else you want) and charge in. works best with a ring of regen and a reinvig item but can do without, i used 2 helmets with the gore attack since i was indie smashing and it worked great even on lvl 8 knight provinces

[Alneyan]

The Supreme Court of Serpentine Creatures hereby advices the one known as Djo that all special Dominion types are indicated when checking province info in your own Dominion. The information text will thus display the name of your Dominion, be it a nation specific one (id est, Spring &amp; Autumn) or a generic one (exempli gratia, Heart of Winter).

[The Panther]

I am putting in the nation-specific themes. But as far as I know, the themes available to multiple nations cannot be discovered from merely looking at a pretender unless you try to remake the pretender and see that there are points missing (to make an educated guess). I will not be doing that, of course, so any common themes will just have to stay secret.

I received the shovah pretender and am now missing only two.

[Alneyan]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words; that one is only worth fifty-eight words (58), but hey.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7427/mari0qo.jpg

[The Panther]

heh!

I sure feel so darn stupid!

[Huntsman]

Alneyan said:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words; that one is only worth fifty-eight words (58), but hey.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7427/mari0qo.jpg



How did I ever miss this?! It's the first time I've noticed it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif Thanks for the tip.

[Alneyan]

The Panther said:
heh!

I sure feel so darn stupid!



"Look at you, Panther, a pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?" (*)

(*Exact quote is: Look at you, hacker, and the rest is unchanged)

[Ironhawk]

shovah said:
i like my fire+astral wyrm (usually also has 2 nature)cast body etheral+personal luck, then fire shield and astral shield, then resist magic (or anything else you want) and charge in. works best with a ring of regen and a reinvig item but can do without, i used 2 helmets with the gore attack since i was indie smashing and it worked great even on lvl 8 knight provinces



Shovah you know that putting astral on a battle-centric pretender is kind of a faux pas, right? One lucky lizard Shaman with a Magic Duel and your pretender is insti-killed.

[The Panther]

I am missing the pretender only from High Priest Narash.

[archaeolept]

Astral Wyrms are very potent. As long as it has a moderately strong astral path, it should be fine.

And a shaman can't cast magic duel w/out an "expensive" cap, as astral duel requires lvl 2 path in the CB mod.

[shovah]

i stuck on my wyrm 5 fire and 7 astal and empowerd him with nature

[Alneyan]

Power of the Spheres or Light of the Northern Star would also do the trick; failing that, you can always give your Shaman a couple of astral pearls to reach level 2 for one spell, thereby allowing them to Magic Duel your poor Pretender.

Standard warning, Magic Duel only looks at your base level, with one possible exception, so beware! Second standard warning, the Banner of the Northern Star might give +1 astral to *enemy* mages, so you could empower them without even noticing it.

[djo]

I'm betting the wyrm from the nation with "body ethereal" as its starting spell will have astral.

Mine does, too, because it's sparkly.

[The Panther]

djo said:
I'm betting the wyrm from the nation with "body ethereal" as its starting spell will have astral.




That would be Ermor.

[Huntsman]

djo said:
I'm betting the wyrm from the nation with "body ethereal" as its starting spell will have astral.

Mine does, too, because it's sparkly.



Same here and he kicks some major indie arse for early expansion. After that, if things get too dangerous with duels he can just retire and sit on the throne and tell his little grandwyrms all about his adventures when he was younger...

[The Panther]

Arralen said:
Map errors
wrong connections:
39 - 60
42 - 60

terrain errors:
#2 should be normal
#10 should be small
#58 should be large
#143 should be large




OK, I fixed all these things. The map is now complete, as best as I can get it. As soon as I get the Naresh Caelum pretender, I will mail everything to our Chief Justice of the Wyrms to make the first turn and we will be underway.

For a guy who hangs out so much on this forum, I wonder where Naresh went?

[RonD]

It sounds like the suggestion to change to 40% sites didn't go anywhere - but I'd like to voice my opposition to the idea anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Mostly a matter of principle. I don't like the idea of changing the settings after the pretenders have been submitted.

[WraithLord]

And where can we d/l the fixed map?

[Alneyan]

You don't need the .map file; only the creator of the game needs it (that would be me).

[The Panther]

It is Monday morning in beautiful New Mexico, and still no word from Naresh. He has not replied to either my emails or my PM.

We might already have our first player dropped out. If I don't hear from him by the time I get home from work today, I will advertise for a new Caelum player.

[The Panther]

One last thing about the game settings.

1. Victory condition. My latest proposal was a hard limit of 12 VPs to win. Alneyan suggested to make this a soft limit. I talked to my son about this and he offered the following:
a. At 12 VPs (1/3), a player is allowed to claim victory in Council. If the nation has been honorable in achieving this goal, the wyrms could easily recognize this and award the victory.
b. At 17 VPs (1/2), victory is automatic.

2. Magic sites. This will stay at 50% since people made their Pretenders with this posted on the COW site.

A final note: There are 14 wyrms of the 16 pretenders I received. So there will be either 14 or 15 votes in the Council. I am hoping for 15 because it would be nice to have an odd number of votes for possible contentious issues.

[Cainehill]

Who've thought our 12 year old would drop out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[djo]

I like the soft/hard VP. Very neat solution.


The Panther said:
So there will be either 14 or 15 votes in the Council. I am hoping for 15 because it would be nice to have an odd number of votes for possible contentious issues.



Fortunately, your rule 6 already states that ties = proposition passes. I like that--wyrms ought to be dynamic, and ties = defeat encourages stagnation.

[The Panther]

Cainehill said:

Who've thought our 12 year old would drop out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



Hmmm... I actually put him on 14, but you could be right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wish]

eagerly awaiting turn one. I have a feeling the first month or so of this is going to be really slow.

[Huntsman]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
eagerly awaiting turn one. I have a feeling the first month or so of this is going to be really slow.



Not if it hosts on schedule which will give us 3 turns/week which seems just about right.

[shovah]

Cainehill said:

Who've thought our 12 year old would drop out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


im 13

[The Panther]

shovah said:
im 13



We were not referring to you.

[shovah]

i know but just thought i would point it out

[Zooko]

Fellow Wyrms:

I have wandered long in the planes of otherness. Shall I join your contest?

Signed,

Sak the Wyrm

P.S. Err, that is, I am willing to take the place of any absent Gods. Although I now see that other dispossessed God spirits have already volunteered.

[Cainehill]

Zooko : I think if you send in a wyrm for Caelum, we'll be underway - Naresh has disappeared, and no one else has volunteered.

[Zooko]

Is it true that the Chief Justice has infinite scrying power, even unto seeing the future, for example, and that any three Wyrms of the Council can invoke him to use his power?

[Ygorl]

He cannot, however, make you your tea. This is an issue, as wyrms don't have hands with which to do so. Even if he could make your tea, in most cases there would still be problems. One mouth would have to hold the cup while the other drinks, leading to many potential problems; for example, "It's my turn to drink now!" or even "I'm not picking it up until you apologise for last night!"

[The Panther]

Zooko said:
Is it true that the Chief Justice has infinite scrying power, even unto seeing the future, for example, and that any three Wyrms of the Council can invoke him to use his power?



Don't forget that the Chief Justice also has infinite capacity to punish wyrms who make frivilous requests that might waste his precious time.

I am not sure about the seeing into the future thing. However, I am pretty sure about the tea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

It's SHOW TIME!!!

With the replacement of Zooko for Naresh, the game is underway. The pretender files have been sent to our Chief Justice to make the first turn. I will be doing all subsequent turns. Also, I have attached the final map file in case anybody is interested.

Also, look to the COW web site for a listing of all pretenders. Since Zooko took the wyrm, we have 15 wyrms in the Council. It sure is gonna take a lot of bribes to win any votes! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Cainehill]

If the first turn hasn't been run, then it hasn't started yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

Well, just for kicks, I didn't get the files. Only use my Fastmail address now, as dom2minions seem down with all hands.

Now if you will excuse me... *Rushes off*

[Morkilus]

So I guess we're using the 5.0 mod? Everyone okay with the "water boots" bug and militia with two shields? Here's my fix to make the Boots work, but I have no clue about the other stuff. Maybe Quantum will chime in?

[High_Priest_Naresh]

nah take me out I havent got time...

[Huntsman]

Morkilus said:
So I guess we're using the 5.0 mod? Everyone okay with the "water boots" bug and militia with two shields? Here's my fix to make the Boots work, but I have no clue about the other stuff. Maybe Quantum will chime in?



I have no idea what you're talking about so if someone could shed some light so as to avoid these bugs, it'd be much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Also; W00t! Let the games begin!

[The Panther]

The flying boots came out requiring W2 to build instead of the intended A2. Actually, I find this amusing in that the powerful air nations can't get flying boots as readily as the nations with the water mages. It might actually be better that way.

Also, will the militia with two shields make someone actually want to build them?

I suppose we can use 5.1 or the above mod to fix this, I really don't care much. I resent the files to Alneyan's other email address and if he can fix these two itmes in starting the game, then fine.

[Wish]

wont changing the mods require rebuilding of pretenders?

[Morkilus]

Huntsman: the way I understand it, changes that don't affect pretenders shouldn't need a remake. Did you make your pretender using the 5.0 mod? If so, it should be fine. I'm excited to start! Last night we talked politics all night; so I'm ready to start weaving the web...

[The Panther]

Every pretender worked under the 5.0 mod. I checked it out. Supposedly, the 5.1 mod does not change this either, so it works with the existing builds.

[shovah]

wen we start?

[Huntsman]

Morkilus said:
Huntsman: the way I understand it, changes that don't affect pretenders shouldn't need a remake. Did you make your pretender using the 5.0 mod? If so, it should be fine. I'm excited to start! Last night we talked politics all night; so I'm ready to start weaving the web...



Hmm, I think this was meant for Mork. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, I too am excited to get this off the ground! BTW, *who* was talking politics all night? And where?! Is this some secret conclave of wyrms or something? A country club for wyrms, perhaps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Alneyan]

The files are in. I will start creating the game right now, and it should be done in two hours at the latest (very likely in less than half an hour, but I might get interrupted by dinner).

I guess I will be using the 5.1 mod for the sake of simplicity: if Panther finds himself with an armed rebellion to switch back to 5.0, he can alter the mod during play.

[Alneyan]

The game has been created, with all fines sent to Panther. The .mod file used was the one attached in this thread (I didn't alter anything here).

[Huntsman]

Alneyan said:
The game has been created, with all fines sent to Panther.



Yes, we like that. Please forward all fines to Panther in the future as well.

As always, thanks for your time! Now go eat dinner before it gets cold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Cainehill]

Umm - I don't think there's actually been a 5.1 mod. Morkilus posted that he fixed the flying boots, and he regretfully put a 5.1 revision number in it, but he implied that he didn't fix anything but the flying boots having 2 water instead of 2 air.

In other words, to the best of my knowledge the heroes are still messed up, militia #18 probably still has 2 shields, etc.

Quantum had posted that he thought he'd have 5.1 out this weekend, but it doesn't seem to have happened, and what Morkilus posted was at best 5.0 with one bug fixed, not 5.1.

[Alneyan]

That would be it yes. I was thinking about putting a custom mod name instead (like CB_COW) or some such, avoiding any mod conflict with other games, but I decided to stick with the standard name instead.

I think it should still be 5.1, as it does fix *something*, whereas I would expect a 5.01 mod to only fix cosmetic things. That, and having only one 5.1 around will help avoid further problems later on, if you wish to upgrade the mod during the course of the game.

[The Panther]

The first turn files have been mailed. I know that the first turn is usually slow because poeple won't have the right mods, or email addresses don't work, or any other numerous problems, or just because!

But try to have your turn done and sent back to me by Thursday. I will be out of town Fri-Sun. I am thinking of changing to a Tuesday-Thursday-Sunday schedule since I am frequently busy on Friday nights.

You will need the mod attached in Page 14 of this forum. You will also need WINRAR software from http://www.rarlab.com/

As for the mods, we should change to the official 5.1 version when it comes out if that happens to be soon.

[djo]

The Panther said:
I know that the first turn is usually slow because poeple won't have the right mods, or email addresses don't work, or any other numerous problems, or just because!



I need to think of names for my guys.



The Panther said:
You will also need WINRAR software from http://www.rarlab.com/



Stuffit Expander works fine for Mac people.

[Huntsman]

OK, so I have the 5.0 mod. WHat do I need now?

[Cainehill]

The putative 5.1 mod we're apparently using is here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=386747).

Note that WinRAR, WinACE, and PKZip (the three most common / popular programs I know that handle .rar files on Windoze) are all licensed shareware products that require you to purchase a license after the trial period, while WinZip (which has the same license requirement and fee) doesn't handle .rar files.

The only one I know of for Windows that doesn't have a moral if not a binding legal requirement to purchase it is tugzip, which while somewhat clunkier to use is at least free, found at Tugzip's page (http://www.tugzip.com/).

[Arralen]

packing program
http://www.7-zip.org/
7-Zip is free software distributed under the GNU LGPL.

mod versions
Do you really think it's a good idea to make pretenders with v5.0, use a modified 5.0 named 5.1 for setting up the game and then maybe a real 5.1 in the future?
Eg. a unit with 2 shield could cause 2 checks for missile stopping on the client, while there was only 1 check on the server. Voila - inconsistent turns.
do we really need that?

[Morkilus]

I apologize if I stepped on any toes by labeling my fix "5.1"; I don't know naming conventions for files and I didn't know what else to call it. I wouldn't have posted anything if I knew we could get a new version before the game started and the regular posters to the mod thread have been pretty silent about when the "real" version would be available. I just thought since the winged shoes were popular that people would be annoyed by having the wrong path. I admit my nation has air mages and the bug directly affects me rather early...

[Huntsman]

It's an annoying bug, for sure, but if modding is going to cause issues then I say we stick with 5.0 or wait until the official 5.1 is released or make darn sure our custom mod is 100% bullet-proof.

It would be far more annoying to have to restart the game in a week or two due to some unforseen side-effect, no?

[Arralen]

too late. The game was already set up with this 5.1. Can anyone tell for sure that no unit has been already generated that will be changed by using another mod ?
Otherwise, we'll have to stick with it.

[Cainehill]

Suspected that was the case - I've never seen a game have it's mod changed mid game. Creating the pretender under one mod and using it under another is one thing, but changing the laws of nature once it's underway is another.

[Huntsman]

Ok, so do I have to rename the *new* mod file to that of the original?

[Wish]

just name it whatever, it shows up in game as complete conceptual balance 5.1

[Alneyan]

The word of the host is law, as far as mods go: uber militias on the end of the mod won't be so when the turn is processed with the regular mod.

Problem is, it isn't 100% sure not to backfire. While some things will never create a problem, equipment has the potential to do it. Of course, the game *should* work just fine, but there is always that incertainty waiting in the background.

I really miss SEIV's way of handling mods here (you can change pretty much anything in the course of the game, if you make sure you don't break backward comptability).

[Huntsman]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
just name it whatever, it shows up in game as complete conceptual balance 5.1



Hmm, I tried but Dom2 couldn't find it it seems the files must be named "conceptbalance_complete_5_1.dm"...

[Alneyan]

The mod name must indeed match the name that was used when the game was created (I used the same name as the one posted here). I could have called it "I_really_want_you_to_have_a_headache.dm", and you wouldn't have been able to play the game without a mod called that.

Speaking of mods, I would like to clarify something about my last few posts: I am only stating my own experience with such matters (I did some mod-switching and assorted fun, but definitively not enough to have checked every single thorny scenario), and the decision is of course not in my hands.

Huntsman: I guess that was a Freudian slip by the way. I spelt "brides" instead of "bribes" a while ago, so that must sum up my life: I am greedy, have a "being in uniform and fining people" fetish, and I am a womaniser.

[RonD]

Chief Justice, hell - Alneyan for President!

[shovah]

yea, lets get all those politicans fired and replace em with dom 2 players! (use the pentagon to summon demon lords :p media fun

[Alneyan]

I think what you have in mind is Cthulhu for president, here (http://www.cthulhu.org/) among other places.

I cannot run for the presidency myself, unless there are places in the world where you can run without national citizenship (and I'm not old enough for France). So, I think I will run as governor instead... Washington perhaps? I heard the climate is pretty good there, and the people are so friendly and...

Excuse me, I must work some more on my speechwriting skills. It shouldn't take more than ten years, though.

[The Panther]

Huntsman said:
Hmm, I tried but Dom2 couldn't find it it seems the files must be named "conceptbalance_complete_5_1.dm"...



What you have to do is load the file from the previous page on this forum and remane it to the above. That's all you have to do to make it work. The underlines are spaces.

[The Panther]

I have two players whose email servers are rejecting my winrar files. These are Quantum Mechani and Izaqyos. I would appreciate having the problem fixed on your end or getting a new email address.

Also, I suppose I can use winzip, since it seems from the above posts that I probably have that on my computer at home. Let me know what you wyrms out there would like.

[Huntsman]

WinRAR can make Zip files.

[Cainehill]

Huntsman said:
WinRAR can make Zip files.



Yep. And since in general everyone tends to have zip capability (oldest common compressed archive format, since SEA's Arc has gone to the wayside and not counting UNIX's .z and other formats), it'd probably cause the fewest problems for everyone if Zip format was used.

In fact - might want to send out that first one again with zip, and possibly include a copy of the mod we're using, with the proper name. Could help get things rolling more quickly.

[WraithLord]

The Panther said:
I have two players whose email servers are rejecting my winrar files. These are Quantum Mechani and Izaqyos. I would appreciate having the problem fixed on your end or getting a new email address.



I am receiving zip files w/o problem in my email address (izaqyos@gmail.com). I know for a fact, though, that gmail is a bit rough on file extentions it doesn't like.
I think Yahoo mail is more tolerant, so if you prefer you can send the file to izaqyos@yahoo.com.
Thanks.
Can't wait to start this one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[archaeolept]

no

[Wish]

well it worked for me just being named conceptualbalance_5_1.dm, I renamed it to match the above, so as to not junk up the game at all

[Zooko]

I use Linux preferentially, and I have reasonable capability for ZIP files, but only limited support for RAR files...

[The Panther]

I am missing three turns:

Caelum Zooko
Marignon djo
Mictlan shovah

If any of you are having trouble with the rar file or the mod, please let me know.

[The Panther]

Just waiting on shovah now.

[djo]

The council is open for business!

On the wiki, I've added a page for council business. I gave instructions on voting on, discussing, and adding propositions. It takes a few clicks and some editing, but I hope it's not too hard.

Proposition 1 is an example. You don't have to vote or discuss, but it's a safe place to practice if you want.

I don't remember what happens when two people try to edit the same page at once. I guess we'll find out!

Other notes:
* use "preview" often when editing! it'll save you lots of time!
* please feel free to improve things if you like
* suggestions welcome if you don't know how to make the wiki work like you want (but my time is limited...)
* wikis are easy to edit, so please do NOT edit someone else's votes; we would just have to move to a system (probably email) to be sure votes are authentic
* same with discussion--add to discussion, but don't change other people's discussion
* of course you can discuss here, too, if you want...
* ...but I think Panther wants all the voting in one place, the wiki (he can speak up if I'm wrong)

[Edit: typo]

[Morkilus]

Votes

I could be wrong about this, but as long as everyone makes a recognizable user in the Wiki (by default =shrapnelcommunity user) there should be no danger of having peoples votes mysteriously change; the rogue IP address will show up in the history and the original vote will get changed back as soon as anyone catches it. I assume this will not be a problem so people don't need to keep watching their votes, but it wouldn't hurt to check before a big proposition goes to tally. I'm just saying authenticity shouldn't be an issue.

Diary

I realize this is a different kind of game than Yarnspinners, but I got so caught up in the RP aspect that I had to start writing some perspective fiction for a couple of my characters (some of which may not exist in the game yet). If nobody minds, I will keep a couple pages on the Wiki to document some aspects of Vanheim's progress (that which gets past the National Security censors). I actually started in a place not called Vanheim...

[Wish]

if shovah has not checked in with the council then I suggest we continue with business on schedule despite his absence

we where supposed to host yesterday, right?

[shovah]

sry guys, will try to get it in soon (i dont no about you guys but i live in uk)