OT: Cyber Nation

[President_Elect_Shang]

Forlorn_Hope said:
And CW: He wasn't THIS strong earlier, he spent some of his money and built himself up. But, not to worry, I still think I can take him down myself.



razorite right? You attacked someone who received a mysterious $3M aid bomb? Man you are lucky he is the only one attacking you. He's a carrier for aid bombs between alliances. I followed that chain of aid packages back through about 20 steps and had found at least two alliances in there. He probably wants his money back so he can pass it to the next step in the chain. well I think your dead, whoever originated that loan is going to want there full payment.

[Atrocities]

How do I get 1.2 million in aid?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Know someone with a big pocket book, join a large alliance? Since non of you are rich I went the alliance rout. Big mistake, they are zealots; worse, self-absorbed egotistical wanna-be deities. be very careful about the alliance you join, they may sound good till you are a member. Ask the recruiters as many questions as you are asked. Being a small nation you are below the radar to all but the raiders like FH. That's another reason why I was thinking about a peaceful alliance, we need numbers to stay safe while we build up our power base but all this raiding is going to get the WP attacked by a major alliance. It's just a matter of time till one of you raiders brings down the real guns. There is one bright spot, most of the Cyber Verse has agreed not to use Nukes. Not that it really matters when an alliance of a 100+ nations is raining down on you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[JeffGeorge]

So who's going to bail us little guys out when we become targets for enemies that our more aggressive members have angered?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Santa Clause.

Edited in: I'm not joking, everyone in the WP will be targets unless it is an alliance that is kind enough to warn you not to help the WP offender off. If it's someone like GOONS we all might as well kiss our butts goodbye and try to flip to Peace mode before the first rounds start coming in.

[Atrocities]

JeffGeorge said:
So who's going to bail us little guys out when we become targets for enemies that our more aggressive members have angered?



What will happen is what always happens in these kind of games. We will be destroyed after being exploited and repeatedly and viciously attacked. In most cases the top players are directly related to the game management. IE they cheat. It was true in Earth 2010 and Planetarion. A new game would start and within hours several players would have amassed huge leads over other players. It was one of the main reasons I left the web game scene back in 01. After do consideration I see that even this game is riddled with this kind of kronyism. It is really disheartening to say the least. If you don't control the game, you are nothing but some poor dumb smuck about to be gang raped by more aggressive players.

I don't believe that I am going to continue with this game. I just don't see the point. Soon I will be attacked and wiped out and really there isn't much I can do to stop it. So why bother with it? The game is rigged to favor a select group and the rest of us are just cannon fodder. If the game isn't on the level, why waste your time and energy playing it? I mean that would be like buying a game that is played exclusively on line. Investing weeks if not months in playing it building up your empire only to be wiped out in one afternoon by a player who was "given" his rank and size because he works for the company managing the game. Where is the fairness in that? You invest time, effort, and thought, and are wiped out by someone who just logs on, actives his empire, edits the DATA base making himself a huge empire and in short term begins to prey upon lessor empires. No thanks, I don't need that kind of aggervation in my life. I think I am going to bow out of this game guys.

[Combat Wombat]

Atrocities I don't believe there is anyone in the game like that. I have heard of nothing like that nor have I seen anything like that.

[Baron Munchausen]

Well, if it does turn into an alliance attack I'll switch to Peace Mode and leave the alliance... and see if I survive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And then next time we'll have to build up peacefully for a long time before getting into fights. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

The huge players and alliances don't bother with the small guys unless you bother them first. They will tear you to pieces but again, that is their way of teaching you a lesson for attacking them first. On the whole the lower nations like ours are the ones that have the most action because of new nations acting as raiders. The only reason there is lots of action at the upper echelons and things are tense now is because of the current situation with several power blocks collapsing. Namely the mega power block which stood in opposition to the Initiative has collapsed leaving the Initiative without opposition. the very purpose of their being has suddenly disappeared. Like NATO after Warsaw dried up.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Baron Munchausen said:
Well, if it does turn into an alliance attack I'll switch to Peace Mode and leave the alliance... and see if I survive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And then next time we'll have to build up peacefully for a long time before getting into fights. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



IIRC this would only work if you manage to get into it before you are attacked. Also you would need to be sure peace was secured before coming back out of it. Some alliances will wait for you to come out of peace mod to give you the thrashing you missed in the war.

[Atrocities]

Then I will stick with it and see what happens. If I get arse raped by some big evil nation wearing a sand paper condom, then be prepared to hear me scream.

[Baron Munchausen]

Fortunately, they cannot. Remember the rules about nation strength. You can only attack nations from half to double your own strength. So what the leaders will do is sic their equivalent members on us. Of course, if they've got 20 or 30 nations of our strength for each one of us, they can certainly wear us down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Baron Munchausen said:
...Of course, if they've got 20 or 30 nations of our strength for each one of us...



Don't forget some of those low level nations you are raiding for money may be tied to a mega alliance; you will need to factor that in too. Obviously I'm not saying the entire CN is populated by mules. However, consider that in my short time with the FCC I had already been asked to act as a mule. Have you taken a look at the states for alliances like The Legion, GATO, and NPO? With 1,000+ members and mules you are looking at odds of more like 100 to 1.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Hrmmm... I don't quite see why there should be muling going on in the first place, but that's OK. I want to disrupt money flows. And if this person wants to try hammering me, well, they best prepare for a thrashing too. Of course, it'd be nice if he could learn proper English...

[Renegade 13]

Oooo, the drama! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Atrocities]

Well I just got screwed out of being able to collect my taxes today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


You cannot collect taxes today. You may only collect taxes once a day.
The current server date and time is 2/27/2007 11:56:31 PM.
The daily update occurs at 6 am GMT.
Countdown to update: Sorry, you are too late.




It wants me to pay my bills, but hasn't let me collect taxes all day. Now it says I am too late. WTH?

[Atrocities]

Never mind, it cleared me to collect taxes just a few seconds ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Combat Wombat]

Your to fast for their servers AT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Hrmmm... I don't quite see why there should be muling going on in the first place, but that's OK. I want to disrupt money flows. And if this person wants to try hammering me, well, they best prepare for a thrashing too. Of course, it'd be nice if he could learn proper English...



He's probably an ESL speaker. These games favor alliances drawing people in from all over the world to keep themselves active in all time zones.

I followed the battle as well as I could by reloading your respective pages. Wheee... saw strength fluctuations of about 300 points by both of you. That's a lot of soldiers and tanks getting smashed up.

Let us know if he starts threatening to send an entire alliance after you, and us. We need to be ready -- even if it's 'ready to run away'...

[Forlorn_Hope]

Yah, I guess the both of us were staying up for this one. I've offered him peace, but the guy doesn't even understand English well enough to know what the hell I'm saying.

Sadly, he smashed up my infrastructure enough to keep me from buying some new aircraft from money taken from his own nation. Well, I have some older WW2 aircraft, but I'll have to live with it. He hasn't done a ground invasion yet, just keeps sending in missles to smash up my infrastructure. (Which is still bloody expensive for me, but I'm not sure why he's not invading. I think he can't mobilize troops because he's in anarchy)

[Forlorn_Hope]

*Further... What's an ESL speaker?

[Forlorn_Hope]

*Update* Peace has been declared between both nations. I will freely admit: Thank God.

[Baron Munchausen]

Look at his wars. He's fighting two other wars. One of his enemies is pretty badly reduced, but the other is not.

And, one of his enemies is in an alliance. A small one like ours. Maybe we should communicate with 'Band of Brothers'?

[Forlorn_Hope]

Nah, I'm just glad to have gotten a graceful way out of that one. I bit off more than I could chew, honestly enough.

[Baron Munchausen]

Forlorn_Hope said:
*Further... What's an ESL speaker?



English as a Second Language.

[Baron Munchausen]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Nah, I'm just glad to have gotten a graceful way out of that one. I bit off more than I could chew, honestly enough.



Don't be certain that this is the end of it. He may have declared peace simply for expediency. Once he builds himself up again he may be back. Especially if, as PES suggests, he is a 'mule' and is reponsible to others for that money.

[Forlorn_Hope]

It's possible, I'm not sure just what is going to happen with that. For now, the war is called off. Of course, he'll have a nasty surprise waiting for him if he decides to launch another air strike on me.

The big concern of mine was that he was more than a match for me and he STILL had almost $2 million he was just sitting on. Honestly, if he wanted to crush me, he probably could have. And he was doing very heavy blows with his air strikes and missle attacks. Anyways, I'm off to bed for tonight.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Atrocities said:
Never mind, it cleared me to collect taxes just a few seconds ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



You probably caught it during a system update. When the system updates it won't let you much of anything. The FAQ explained it and said it was to help speed up the process so the game could continue.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Forlorn_Hope said:
...I'm not sure why he's not invading...



Anarchy doesn't stop you from deploying troops. You should be glad he settled peace before he ZI'ed you, then the ground war would have started. Most likely if he offered peace he won't be back. Why are there mules you ask? The power blocks don't want to be linked to any deals that may piss off another power block. If he was sitting on 2M instead of pumping his forces up to crush you he is most assuredly a mule. Count yourself lucky!

[capnq]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Deploying troops allows you to use them in combat against another nation, it does not send them to another person. You need to go to the nation screen for the nation you want to gift to. Once there you can click on aid and it will allow you to enter values for funds, troops, tech, infra, and I think that's it(?).

I did all that. When I get to the aid page, it says:
Financial Aid Offered: [0] of $1,083.64 Marks.
Technology Aid Offered: [0] of 0.00 available technology.
Military Aid Offered: [0] of 0 available soldiers.

The available cash is $500 less than my current surplus. I have 107 Soldiers and 139 Working Citizens. No matter how many soldiers I deploy, it says I have 0 available soldiers for aid.

Since two other people have already sent troops, I went ahead and sent a small amount of cash. It let the cash offer go through with no complaints.

[JeffGeorge]

Is there a way to see who your neighbors are? I'm feeling the urge for some conquest.

[President_Elect_Shang]

@JeffGeorge: Don't worry about who your neighbors are, map position has no bearing on the game.

@capnq: Don't deploy your troops; deployed troops can not be used to send in an aid package. Deployed troops can only be used for you to attack another nation. There is also a minimum cap on the amount soldiers you can aid (some percentage you can't go below for your own protection) and if you have 107 troops and getting a message 0 of 0 than you most likely have troops deployed and are below this percent value for home defense.

[JeffGeorge]

I am now at war with the F.U.S.S.R.

[Baron Munchausen]

Yeesh, I hope you chose your enemy carefully. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JeffGeorge]

Not likely. I don't have a clue what I'm doing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I won a couple of battles, but lost 35 of my deployed 70 soldiers in doing so. I think I gained half a square mile of land. I quickly sent a peace offer. The guy looked weak with no alliance so I decided that it was time for my troops to test their training.

[aegisx]

Looks like Narquilocles could use some assistance. The 150 troops I sent as aid were already lost defending the country. Might have to attack the attacker directly.

[aegisx]

I sent a 'threat' to the attacking nation, hopefully it will help. Berraz is too low on power for me to attack. They are ~90 in strength.

[JeffGeorge]

I could attack him if my nation strength is 45, right? Can't you attack up to twice your strength?

[Forlorn_Hope]

That is correct.

[GuyOfDoom]

Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 0.278 miles of land from Unmnate Alliance. They also destroyed 0.864 infrastructure within Unmnate Alliance. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $87.23 from the nation of Unmnate Alliance.

[GuyOfDoom]

Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 0.266 miles of land from Unmnate Alliance. They also destroyed 0.829 infrastructure within Unmnate Alliance. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $132.59 from the nation of Unmnate Alliance.

[Beck]

In the spirit of helping my fellow alliance members, I'd like to offer making some March donations (since my new player status and peace, I cannot aid directly). In return, I'd like to receive either $300,000 CN or $200,000 CN plus 10 tech levels your choice. This funds itself since you receive $400,000 CN + 200 to infrastructure + 200 to land + 20 tech levels. The street price for this is currently running between 2-3 million CN, but what's a discount when it's for fellow alliance members and helps strengthen the alliance. Since there are 3 aid slots, I can do three of these.

[Baron Munchausen]

Please explain. Are you saying you will make the paypal contribution in someone else's name if they will share some of the benefits with you?

What's the name of your nation?

[Beck]

Yes, that what it means. The rules of the game allow for you to make paypal (or send a check) contributions in the name of other players. Any arrangements made for doing so are between the players. On the forum there is a stickied thread for the purpose of posting such requests and items for sale. The two most requested/offered items seem to be: 1. Requests for or offers to make donations and 2. Requests for or offers to sell tech levels. Tech levels seem to run 1-1.5 for 50 tech levels. Requests for donations seem to run for 2-3 million CN (3 million being highest that can be done in a single aid transaction kinda sets the ceiling price) or some combination of money and tech levels. A lot depends on how badly one needs the influx. I think end/beginning of the months can possibly inflate prices as you can donate on the last day of the month and then again on the first day of the month (once per calendar month). The standard donation request is usually for the $20 donation as that gives the biggest bang for the buck (it would take two $15 donations to equal the same you get for the $20). It gives you a huge jump as you can see if you look at my nation: DuchyofGrandFenwick, ruler: Count Rupert. It bumped me up into 1550 strength range and last I checked it made me number two in the alliance. The infrastructure you get alone (the price of infrastructure will start climbing for you guys once you reach level 20) is worth more than the exchange I'm asking (at my level infrastructure is over $4,000 CN a point). The tech levels at you level if purchased in lots of ten is probably worth $250,000 CN. I have no sense of the what the additional land is worth. My first tax collection was something on the order of $231. My second somewhere around $46,000. Like I said I would like to help the alliance and in my current situation as regards to peace and being 1 day old, this is the quickest way I can.

[Atrocities]

My God this game is diabolical! Think about it, people are actually willing to send them $20.00 a pop every month just to get bonuses! Jesus, if PBW had a game like this they could rake in a ton of cash.

You create a highly addictive game, then give the players an option to donate for excellent rewards. The game grows in popularity and presto your a rich SOB!

Image now if shrapnel games could port one of their war games into a web based game such as this and followed the same business model that these guys have. Shrapnel could make a lot of $$.

Shrapnel should consider proposing this to one of their game developers.

[Beck]

I would agree. Maybe something with a little more strategy involved would be nice. I'm only looking at the whole thing as entertainment. I could spend it going to a movie, etc. or spend it doing this. I chose this. I don't see this having legs for me since its a little simplistic.

[Baron Munchausen]

You say you want a browser-based strategy game?

You're already on a 'try new games' kick... so try this:

http://www.ferion.com/portal/spacestrategygame.php

[Will]

You know, I just got an idea on how to take advantage of the CN system to really boost the growth of active members of the alliance. It will take some timing coordination, but I think it can work very nicely. It works like so:

1) One of the 'larger' (for this alliance, at least) nations sends a cash aid package to one of the smaller active members
2) The smaller nation goes into Peace mode, and uses the aid sent to just pay off bills for 10 days, buys nothing, collects no taxes
3) Once the 10 days is up, the smaller nation now has four aid slots open
4) At this point, the scheme can vary a little. Let's say that three of the larger nations all send a large cash (and include soldiers+tech too, need to work on numbers for this) aid packages to the small nation.
5) The small, and now very rich, nation begins buying infrastructure in blocks of 10, until the cash is all used up (occaisionally buy land as needed). Hold off on buying soldiers until close to the end or send soldiers with the aid
6) The small nation is now not-so-small, and also not-so-rich anymore... but it also has not collected taxes in 10 days! Leave peace mode, make sure you have all the happiness modifiers you can get, crank the tax rate up to 28%, and collect... the not-so-small nation gets tax income x10 and is rich again!
7) Use the resulting funds to ensure adequate defenses, and the boosted nation now becomes the large nation in step 1. To get the most out of it, and be able to pass along more cash, this probably means going to DEFCON 1 and buying a boatload of troops and tanks (and maybe fighters if you get boosted that high).

I'm probably not the first to think of this. Most of the big alliances are probably doing the same thing... but, anyone want to give it a shot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Neo-Athenia has joined, and received a trade proposal from a nation called "Fascistland" from Maroon team within an hour. Should I accept or not? He's offering me Wine and Oil, I have Cattle and Pigs. What ever should I do?

edit: Well, he's withdrawn the offer..... and I have a message from someone running for the Aqua Team Senate.

Dang. This is getting more real than is comfortable O_o

[aegisx]

I just looked at the alliance rankings, a bunch of people jumped up pretty far. Did you guys get aid or make a donation?

[JeffGeorge]

Will said:
You know, I just got an idea on how to take advantage of the CN system to really boost the growth of active members of the alliance. It will take some timing coordination, but I think it can work very nicely. It works like so:

1) One of the 'larger' (for this alliance, at least) nations sends a cash aid package to one of the smaller active members
2) The smaller nation goes into Peace mode, and uses the aid sent to just pay off bills for 10 days, buys nothing, collects no taxes
3) Once the 10 days is up, the smaller nation now has four aid slots open
4) At this point, the scheme can vary a little. Let's say that three of the larger nations all send a large cash (and include soldiers+tech too, need to work on numbers for this) aid packages to the small nation.
5) The small, and now very rich, nation begins buying infrastructure in blocks of 10, until the cash is all used up (occaisionally buy land as needed). Hold off on buying soldiers until close to the end or send soldiers with the aid
6) The small nation is now not-so-small, and also not-so-rich anymore... but it also has not collected taxes in 10 days! Leave peace mode, make sure you have all the happiness modifiers you can get, crank the tax rate up to 28%, and collect... the not-so-small nation gets tax income x10 and is rich again!
7) Use the resulting funds to ensure adequate defenses, and the boosted nation now becomes the large nation in step 1. To get the most out of it, and be able to pass along more cash, this probably means going to DEFCON 1 and buying a boatload of troops and tanks (and maybe fighters if you get boosted that high).

I'm probably not the first to think of this. Most of the big alliances are probably doing the same thing... but, anyone want to give it a shot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



My nation of Ferenczia is willing to be the guinea pig for anybody's ideas.

[JeffGeorge]

On second thought, I seem to be in big trouble here. Here's what I found in my Inbox just now.

================================================== ============
You have been attacked by BWL1989. You lost 82 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 25 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.083 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.400 infrastructure. Their forces looted $1.55 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.
================================================== ============
You have been attacked by BWL1989. You lost 38 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 18 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.080 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.384 infrastructure. Their forces looted $2.35 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.
================================================== ============
To: General Faethor From: BWL1989 2/28/2007 5:09:44 PM Subject: RE: Peace Offer

Oh I understand, pick on the weaker nation. Get what you can. Then declare peace when they are helpless. No! We do not accept your peace. We are going to take everything from you and then there can be peace.
================================================== ============
A fighter escorted bombing run has been launched against your nation by BWL1989. In the attack you lost 0 defending tanks, 0 cruise missiles, and 0.09 infrastructure. You destroyed 0 attacking bombers. You lost 0 fighter aircraft and destroyed 0 fighter aircraft launched by BWL1989.
================================================== ============
A fighter escorted bombing run has been launched against your nation by BWL1989. In the attack you lost 0 defending tanks, 0 cruise missiles, and 0.09 infrastructure. You destroyed 0 attacking bombers. You lost 0 fighter aircraft and destroyed 0 fighter aircraft launched by BWL1989.
================================================== ============

[Combat Wombat]

dems fightin words, little bugger got some massive aid from some brown people so that means he wants to tangle. My economy is still recovering from my 4 different wars in the past week so I am not going to dive into this one but there seems to be 4 or 5 nations right around the correct strength now so maybe some of you guys should take up the fight against BWL1989. He doesn't want to be attacked but he has yet to join an alliance which means he has no protector and its no ones fault but his.

[JeffGeorge]

Any advice on what I should do at this point?

[JeffGeorge]

Damn. He's not giving up. Here are the latest reports.
================================================== ===============
Your nation has been defeated in battle. You do not have enough troops to defend your nation and your government has been thrown into Anarchy. You have lost all of your tanks, 1.81 infrastructure has been destroyed, and 0.00 technology was lost due to the invasion and resulting riots. What troops you did have deployed have also been returned home.
================================================== ===============
A fighter escorted bombing run has been launched against your nation by BWL1989. In the attack you lost 0 defending tanks, 0 cruise missiles, and 0.00 infrastructure. You destroyed 0 attacking bombers. You lost 0 fighter aircraft and destroyed 0 fighter aircraft launched by BWL1989.
================================================== ===============
A fighter escorted bombing run has been launched against your nation by BWL1989. In the attack you lost 0 defending tanks, 0 cruise missiles, and 0.07 infrastructure. You destroyed 0 attacking bombers. You lost 0 fighter aircraft and destroyed 0 fighter aircraft launched by BWL1989.

[JeffGeorge]

He has 599 soldiers to my 38! How did he get so many????

[JeffGeorge]

I thought you could only make two attacks a day! He just hit me again!

You have been attacked by BWL1989. You lost 38 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 14 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.076 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.286 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.73 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.

I lost all of the soldiers I bought today.

I am calling upon the terms of the alliance for help!

[Beck]

aegisx said:
I just looked at the alliance rankings, a bunch of people jumped up pretty far. Did you guys get aid or make a donation?



Yes. I'm DuchyofGrandFenwick, I had made a February donation when I started up my nation. You'll note several posts above yours I had made an offer to support alliance members by making several March donations. So far Hollin has taken me up on the offer, Jraenar made his own donation. My offer is still open as long as I have the aid slots. I can begin making some direct aid to members once I come out of peace mode.

[JeffGeorge]

Beck said:

aegisx said:
I just looked at the alliance rankings, a bunch of people jumped up pretty far. Did you guys get aid or make a donation?



Yes. I'm DuchyofGrandFenwick, I had made a February donation when I started up my nation. You'll note several posts above yours I had made an offer to support alliance members by making several March donations. So far Hollin has taken me up on the offer, Jraenar made his own donation. My offer is still open as long as I have the aid slots. I can begin making some direct aid to members once I come out of peace mode.



I would gladly take you up on your offer except that my nation is now a smoldering ruin.

[Will]

JeffGeorge said:
I thought you could only make two attacks a day! He just hit me again!


The attacks from before were presumably dated around the message he sent you, which was dated at around 5PM 2/28 server time. It's now 3/1 server time, so it's a new day and a new round of attacks available.

Which reminds me, the little slingshot scheme isn't going to work if everyone's out attacking. It would probably be better if we use PES's idea to form a second alliance that doesn't do any attacks, and leave the wars to the Wombat Protectorate. We can do rotations between the two, but the other alliance will need to have a strict rule of no declarations of war allowed. All the aid being sent around would be more than enough attention without adding aggression to it.

And JeffGeorge, on the bright side, your nation is still less than a week old, so it would not be too bad to just delete the nation and start over, this time with a better idea of how to start out.

[Beck]

Well, perhaps we can do once you're able to rebuild. Hate to do right now and have all the gains lost if he continues to attack you. I'm not sure what the effects of your situation are (anarchy), but if someone with more experience says you'd benefit right now, then I'll do it now. Either way, I'll try to reserve you a slot.

[Beck]

Will said:

JeffGeorge said:
I thought you could only make two attacks a day! He just hit me again!


The attacks from before were presumably dated around the message he sent you, which was dated at around 5PM 2/28 server time. It's now 3/1 server time, so it's a new day and a new round of attacks available.

Which reminds me, the little slingshot scheme isn't going to work if everyone's out attacking. It would probably be better if we use PES's idea to form a second alliance that doesn't do any attacks, and leave the wars to the Wombat Protectorate. We can do rotations between the two, but the other alliance will need to have a strict rule of no declarations of war allowed. All the aid being sent around would be more than enough attention without adding aggression to it.

And JeffGeorge, on the bright side, your nation is still less than a week old, so it would not be too bad to just delete the nation and start over, this time with a better idea of how to start out.



Well, I would be up for being a member of that peace alliance. And speaking of rules, is Wombat Protectorate going to get some sort of charter, etc. in place? It's kinda like the wild west with gunslinging going on everywhere which is bound to bring reprecussions later like PES suggested. Are we going to establish any mutual defense pacts with other alliance, specifically other large alliances? How are the discussions going with the Blue Turtle Alliance? We need to get something in place or other alliances are going to view us as rogue or a loose cannon.

[JeffGeorge]

Will said:
And JeffGeorge, on the bright side, your nation is still less than a week old, so it would not be too bad to just delete the nation and start over, this time with a better idea of how to start out.



I'm the type of person, though, that never starts a game over due to poor starting position and the like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I fight until there's no fight left in me! (Which may not be long if he keeps hitting me!)

[JeffGeorge]

Will said:

JeffGeorge said:
I thought you could only make two attacks a day! He just hit me again!


The attacks from before were presumably dated around the message he sent you, which was dated at around 5PM 2/28 server time. It's now 3/1 server time, so it's a new day and a new round of attacks available.



But he's made a total of 7 attacks since yesterday. How is that possible? Shouldn't he only be able to make a total of 4?

[Beck]

Well, I think from looking at other wars, you can attack twice a day from both land and air which means it possible to be attacked 4 times a day.

[GuyOfDoom]

How did people jump up so fast?

[JeffGeorge]

I tried one of those jumps, but I didn't land so well....

[GuyOfDoom]

I'm curious as to how people are doing it...

[JeffGeorge]

My foe finally made peace after giving me a good spanking.

[Beck]

GuyOfDoom: It was answered earlier in the thread around page 20, basically by donation.

JeffGeorge: Do you want to do that donation to rebuild now that your war is over? If you're thinking of going to peace mode to recover, this needs to be done before you do since you cannot send aid in peace mode. I will offer a further discount and only take $200,000 CN instead of $300,000 to assist your recovery. Let me know.

[JeffGeorge]

Beck,

I have no plan to go into Peace mode despite my recent defeat. I wish to keep the option open to wage war when necessary. I am in favor of your proposal, but I'm not sure what it is that I need to do to enact it.

Jeff

[GuyOfDoom]

Ah, so I have been doing better than most. $$$ has just bumped people ahead of me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

The guy is just under my strength range. I'll let him build himself up a little bit tomorrow, and then declare war on him. (BWL1989) Sorry I didn't realize this was happening before... Didn't realize pages 21 and 22 were there D:

[JeffGeorge]

Do as you wish, Forlorn_Hope, but know that I will disavow all knowledge of any such actions. I'm in no position to have him come down on me again. After all, I'm the one that started the previous war.

[Beck]

JeffGeorge: It should work like this (or at least it worked with the Baron). I will place the donation on your behalf with CN. Once they process it (its usually pretty quick, my first one took a couple of hours but the others have been within five minutes) they will credit you with a donation and send you a post to that effect. You should notice that you received the following: $400,000 CN, 200 added to your infrastructure, 200 added to land and 20 added to your tech levels. Once you receive it, simply go to your foreign aid and send me the $200,000 which will leave with $200,000 to rebuild with as well as the improvements which by themselves should bump up your nation's strength considerably. We both end up ahead.

[capnq]

President_Elect_Shang said: @capnq: Don't deploy your troops; deployed troops can not be used to send in an aid package. Deployed troops can only be used for you to attack another nation. There is also a minimum cap on the amount soldiers you can aid (some percentage you can't go below for your own protection) and if you have 107 troops and getting a message 0 of 0 than you most likely have troops deployed and are below this percent value for home defense.

No, that's not it. I was told I had 0 troops available for aid regardless of whether I had deployed any, and my total troops were over the 80% limit and upsetting my population. (In fact, after I deployed some, my people stopped complaining about too many troops.)

Changing my Defcon level didn't make a difference either. The only other possibility I came up was that perhaps you're not allowed to send troops to a nation with a higher strength rating than your own.

No one has either verified or refuted the suggestion that I found in the FAQ, that there's a minimum nation strength to be able to give aid.

[JeffGeorge]

Beck said:
Jeff George: It should work like this (or at least it worked with the Baron). I will place the donation on your behalf with CN. Once they process it (its usually pretty quick, my first one took a couple of hours but the others have been within five minutes) they will credit you with a donation and send you a post to that effect. You should notice that you received the following: $400,000 CN, 200 added to your infrastructure, 200 added to land and 20 added to your tech levels. Once you receive it, simply go to your foreign aid and send me the $200,000 which will leave with $200,000 to rebuild with as well as the improvements which by themselves should bump up your nation's strength considerably. We both end up ahead.



That sounds fine. How do you go ahead and make a donation on my behalf? I'm in.

[Beck]

Okay JeffGeorge, I made the donation on your behalf with CN, you'll hearing from them shortly.

[capnq]

Will said: Which reminds me, the little slingshot scheme isn't going to work if everyone's out attacking. It would probably be better if we use PES's idea to form a second alliance that doesn't do any attacks, and leave the wars to the Wombat Protectorate. We can do rotations between the two, but the other alliance will need to have a strict rule of no declarations of war allowed.

Fiducia would definitely be interested in joining a pacifist co-alliance; we'd much rather build up our economy than our military.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Oh, the war is already over? Darn... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Beck]

Capq: According to this from the CN website, neither strength or team affilation is a factor. Were you doing from the nation's details screen you wanted to help?

The foreign aid screen allows you to send aid to any other nation within Cyber Nations in the form of money, technology, and/or military assistance. Sending foreign aid does not require nations to be on the same team nor is strength a factor in the foreign aid system. To send aid to another nation simply view the nations details screen for the nation you want to send aid to and click the ‘Aid’ link at the top of the page. Fill in the details of the foreign aid offer that you are sending and click the ‘Offer Foreign Aid’ button. Once your aid offer is submitted a private message will be sent to the recipient notifying them of your foreign aid offer. Until the recipient reviews the foreign aid offer and accepts it the aid offer will be placed in pending status. While in pending status both nations have the option to cancel the offer. Once accepted however an aid offer cannot be canceled or deleted until the offer expires. By accepting a foreign aid offer the aid items sent will be credited to the receiver’s nation and debited from the sender’s nation. For example, if Nation A sends $10.00, 5 technology, and 500 soldiers Nation B will be credited with those items and Nation A will lose those items upon acceptance. The maximum offer for any foreign aid offer is $3,000,000 cash, 50 technology, and 2,000 soldiers.

[JeffGeorge]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Oh, the war is already over? Darn... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



It is from my end. He slaughtered me. I had to sue for peace as someone was reinforcing him and all of a sudden he had escorted bombers and 500 soldiers. I learned that just because someone isn't in an alliance doesn't mean they don't have allies. I can't say that I would be sorry to see something happen to the F.U.S.S.R., but if he decides to come at me again I won't be able to fight back.

[Beck]

That will change shortly once you see the effects that the donation will have. You'll be able to produce your own tanks, fighters and bombers. They'll be defensive in nature only until you can get out of anarchy.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Go with fighters, bombers are bloody all useless on defense.

[Renegade 13]

Hmmm, I may end up being in a wee bit of trouble here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif A guy I've been using as my own personal cash cow, Inkxh, has $1,000,000 in financial aid pending from someone affiliated with The Legion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif My latest attack threw Inkxh into anarchy (and netted me $3500 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ), so he may not be able to do anything until that's over (I'm not sure how anarchy works), but if he comes after me with $1,000,000 behind him...I might be in trouble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Ah well, we shall see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Anarchy doesn't prevent military maneuvers. It just reduces population happiness, and so cuts tax revenues. As soon as he logs in to accept that aid he will be able to attack you. Be afraid.

I guess the idea floating around to form a second 'peaceful only' alliance is a good one. One of these random 'adventures' in search of booty is likely to get us all into very big trouble.

Who is the 'Blue Turtle' alliance? Is it controlled by someone known to people in our alliance? And what about some of the other small alliances like 'Band of Brothers' that was also fighting razorite? (In fact, another member of that alliance has gone to war against razorite -- he just can't get any peace! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

[Forlorn_Hope]

If the aid is pending, attack the person who is sending it. If the aid is accepted, attack the person who has accepted it. Aid doesn't change hands until it's been accepted.

[Beck]

Baron Munchausen said:

Who is the 'Blue Turtle' alliance? Is it controlled by someone known to people in our alliance? And what about some of the other small alliances like 'Band of Brothers' that was also fighting razorite? (In fact, another member of that alliance has gone to war against razorite -- he just can't get any peace! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )



They are an Aqua Team alliance with roughly 58 members but alliance strength is about five times our current strength. They don't condone the use of nukes. They seem to be largely a peaceful alliance. They contacted us back early in this thread and CW was negogiating with them. Haven't heard any results of the discussions.

[Baron Munchausen]

Forlorn_Hope said:
If the aid is pending, attack the person who is sending it. If the aid is accepted, attack the person who has accepted it. Aid doesn't change hands until it's been accepted.



The nation that sent the aid has a strength of 15,778! No one in our alliance is even close to being able to attack him. More importantly, he's a member of The Legion -- one of the most powerful alliances in the game. Even if we could attack him, it would be certain death.

[Atrocities]

I am a member of the Legion. Given what I know of them, if you attack them, they will obliterate every member in the WP alliance. So don't attack them.

[Baron Munchausen]

A defector! He's not even in Aqua team anymore! CW, we've been deserted! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

What I meant was, it's pointless to attack a nation BEFORE they get the aid.

[Renegade 13]

Baron Munchausen said:
I guess the idea floating around to form a second 'peaceful only' alliance is a good one. One of these random 'adventures' in search of booty is likely to get us all into very big trouble.

Nah, a peaceful alliance would be boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Much of the fun I have is through wars! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

Ok, I may be a bit of a provocateur here, but I dislike people who try to intimidate me. Here is the message I received, and my response to it:


To: Freyr
From: ChefAce
PM Subject: Inkxh

I suggest you offer their nation peace. They are a small nation just trying to get started and they don't need someone attacking them when they are so new.

If you'd like to play then I'll be your playmate. But you need to leave that nation alone.

Regards,
Chef




First off, I'd like to make a few points:

1: I do not appreciate threats by empires that are many times my strength.

2: Inkxh is barely newer than I am. He is 10 days, I'm 14. Thus that point means basically nothing.

3: If he doesn't want to be attacked, he should be in peace mode. If he's in war mode, war is a foreseeable consequence.

4: This is the most important point; I offered him peace about 3 days ago, and he didn't accept within a day or so. Therefore, I continued my attacks.

I notice that you offered him $1,000,000 in aid, so if he doesn't want me to attack him, he could spend some of that on defenses that I wouldn't want to attempt to penetrate.

Please, don't attempt to intimidate smaller, newer nations just because we attack someone who we have no reason to believe is under anyone's protection. It is dishonorable and cowardly.

I shall cease my attacks, but know this; I was planning on doing so anyways, and don't think your message made me stop.

Good day

[President_Elect_Shang]

If it is The Legion you will get a notice to surrender and pay repartitions with a 24 hour expiration. If you refuse or do not answer you will have all your war slots filled up with attacking Legion nations from the guys Cohort. We are all split into Cohorts and we compete to draw blood.

[President_Elect_Shang]

You are are in big trouble now! Better accept pronto!

Edited: Hay wait, the guy your fighting isn't Legion. What's he talking about? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Renegade 13]

That's what got me, I was careful to attack someone who wasn't affiliated with any alliance. Then I get a big ol' goon come and threaten me! Doesn't make much sense to me; if he's under the protection of The Legion, why isn't he in their alliance? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Hold it... how many people have defected from here to "The Legion" >:o

[Renegade 13]

Not I!

[Combat Wombat]

wtf why are you guys leaving? wow... you want to be in a good alliance but you won't stick around to help make it happen. Why would you join another alliance?

[capnq]

Beck said: Capq: According to this from the CN website, neither strength or team affilation is a factor. Were you doing from the nation's details screen you wanted to help?

I was able to successfully send him some cash from his Aid screen. Nothing I tried would let me add troops to the package.

The only other possibility that I can think of is a bug in the display of the number of troops available. It never occured to me to try sending some troops despite "0" being available.

[Randallw]

Personally I thought the whole point was a couple of friends here were making an alliance together. One person has cancelled a trade agreement on me without warning because they appear to have jumped ship and another seems to be in another team now, so -2 happiness (well you know -+2) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Luckily I just had the two week bonus.

[capnq]

Forlorn_Hope said: how many people have defected from here to "The Legion"

According to our stats page, we are down to 30 members; the highest count since I joined was 34. I don't know who else has left besides Atrocitonia; Fiducia hadn't interacted with any of them enough for me to remember their names.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Pulled a cattle raid on Plagueland today. Unfortunately, I crushed his military so fast I couldn't get a second attack in to get some more money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Only walked out with $50,000... cheap bugger.

[Combat Wombat]

Come on guys answer why are you leaving the alliance, this was supposed to be something fun and now your jumping ship because some people offered you what? 300k? Friggin GOONS offered me a clean mil to join them but what fun is the game if you just gonna have someone carry you like a baby all the way through it? Suck it up and come back to the alliance already.

[Baron Munchausen]

Grand Duchy of Fenwick is one of the deserters!? He's a Blue Turtle Alliance member now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Beck]

Well sorry about that (I'm the Duchy of Grand Fenwick), but this as everyone says is supposed to be about having fun. I originally joined because it was a bunch of SE'ers forming an alliance. But I've come to see that our playing styles are too divergent for me to have fun while at the same time you're having fun attacking other players. I'm basically not that aggressive when faced with other options (I am afterall a wargamer back before you could play them on a computer so war isn't exactly a foreign subject). I generally play as a builder and spill blood only when necessary. I am and always have been a superb counter-puncher. Alliances are a two way street, while the alliance provides support to its members, its members need to support the alliance, not just with aid/cooperation but by its actions being in conformance with the designs of the alliance. The Blue Turtles are a peaceful alliance and you're not allowed to aggressively attack other players and I'm fine with that, you wouldn't be so I wouldn't expect you to be in such an alliance. There were others who had voiced concerns over the amount of aggressive play. And had the suggestion to form a peaceful co-alliance been followed up, I would have been all for it. When Atrocities left followed by a near collusion the Legion occurred it frightened me enough to seek other options. The climate within CN seems to be shifting ever so slightly against the very sort of behavior WP seems to be built upon. There was a recent example of a small alliance, We are Perth Army dogpiling an unaligned nation on a tech raid. Five alliances lead by I believe ANGIL and ENA came to the defense of the said unaligned nation just on the principle the WEPA was a rogue alliance and basically ZI'd most if not all WEPA. WEPA has made changes to its charter while its in the rebuilding process as a result of the war to be more in line with what other alliances deem as apropriate behavior. If WP would get that same distinction somewhere down the road I would have suffered along with everyone else. Which would be fine if that was my style of play, but it isn't. I was also concerned by the lack of structure to the WP, there is no charter,etc. nothing to guide the behavior of the members save what they has individuals think they can get away with. There is no application process to speak off, you can just simply join. But what if members from SoD wanted to join? I don't see anything that would prevent it and I personally don't need the grief of being branded a Nazi which is what would happen should that come to pass. We're a little too focused on making the big score that we were/are apparently ignoring the waters are full of danger. The documents like the charter etc. are important when dealing with other alliances because the other alliances can see for themselves how you intend to police yourself should there be conflict. And conflicts will eventually occur. WP doesn't have any of that. There is no hierarchy of command, no envoys for dealing with other alliances, no ability to coordinate reactions and support when members get attacked, nothing. Renegade13's near miss with the Legion made me decide I couldn't wait for things to change or the formation of the peaceful co-alliance to occur, I had to move, so that I can have fun. If you can't see that and want to brand me a traitor, fine.

[Beck]

Oh, and BTW, I was not offered anything to join the BTA. And I will not be carried like a baby. I will in all likelihood be doing some of the carrying as I'm number 11 in the alliance. BTA is only a little larger in nations than you but with higher overall nation strength. So its not like I joined a super large alliance or anything.

[Renegade 13]

To me, it's just a game. I don't want an alliance that has strict rules over what I can and can not do, that just wouldn't be fun. Nor do I want an alliance that trys to stop me from having any wars, that's contrary to what I like about this game. Sure, I had a bit of a near-miss with a Legion member, but who cares? It was all in fun.

[Combat Wombat]

The only interesting part of the game is wars anyone can sit and click to the button to build up their nation every turn it takes alittle bit of thinking to win a war against someone. It is a stupid little web game if your not there to have some fun why play at all? Its not like SE4 where building a good economy is somewhat of a challange it takes no effort to have a succesful nation. SO all thats left is wars.

Edit: Also guys complaining about how open the alliance is to people last time I checked you can join any alliance you want. I could go join Legion or BTA right now and theres not a damn thing they could do about it. There is no way to place restrictions on who can join the alliance...

[Beck]

Well, with the number of rogue attacks it looks like I'll have plenty of opportunity for war. The rules don't have to be rigid and confining, they just have to imply there is some control. Particularly in CN, all the members of an alliance suffer for the sins of one. BTA has a rule about aggressive attacks, but its not rigid. If I want to go on a tech raid, I can, but its with the understanding that I do so on my own and it doesn't involve the BTA. I get in trouble, I can expect no help. As things are right with WP, anything anyone does involves the entire alliance. You have no system for separating out actions as individual from those of an alliance. As far as fun, we each have our definitions of what that is. Its unfair to impy I'm not having fun because my idea of fun defers from yours. I'm not trying to change what you're doing because I know you're having fun. I enjoy the role-playing aspects and opportunities the game presents more, it doesn't mean I'm having any less fun. I agree that just logging on to cash taxes and spend it for two minutes everyday wouldn't be my idea of fun either. I wouldn't do it at all if I weren't having fun. To each his own. I respect your attitude and there are times I wish I could be more on the edge like you. But it's not in my nature anymore than it is in your nature to be more like me.

Edit: Well all the other alliances I looked at have an application process and warn you against listing as being part of their alliance until they have approved, so pursumably there are measures that can be taken even if it's dogpiling you until to give up. I have seen threads where members were kicked out of different alliances. How its done, I don't know, all I can say is what I've seen. One of the things has something to do with masking which apparently can differentiate a real member from someone pretending to be a member.

[Forlorn_Hope]

I second CW. This game is a small game I enjoy playing, because I enjoy waging wars on differing nations to build my strength up as much and as quickly as possible. Wilhelmia was founded on the concept of conquering Antarctica, and by God I intend to do that. I leave in two weeks for the US Navy, so I have a lot to accomplish in a little time ;o

[Beck]

Okay and I respect that. But apparently I can get no respect for enjoying other aspects of the game. To be honest, it's a pretty weak combat system and its the role-playing aspects that have me playing at all. Given your styles of playing, I would have been miserable and would have left CN shortly altogether. So you want to begrudge me for leaving and going somewhere where I can enjoy the game. Now who's taking things way too seriously for a GAME.

[Combat Wombat]

I am not begruging you I am just trying to figure out why you left and the others left. You gave me no indications that you wern't happy with how things were going no one did. Then you up and leave you can't expect me not to be curious and slightly peeved.

I have never forced anyone to goto war no have I made anyone get involved in anyone elses war I just don't understand what the problem is.

[Santiago]

Even though this is a small online game and I have played in major online games, the problem is the same as always in online games. Real and perceived differences between playstyles, some need structure and others don't. Work your way up or buy your way up. They all cause problems sooner or later. And way too many online players take things way too seriously. Afterall it's only a game. Pretty much why I don't usually play online games anymore, except for Combat Wombat's invite to try CN and even then I just check to see what's going on. I haven't attacked anyone and no one has attacked me (knocks on wood). If I can help support anyone I'll try even though I don't have much.

Good luck in your alliances, I'll stay in the WP. Just my opinion.

[Beck]

Well, I'm not sure I can explain it any better than I already have. And okay I'd expect you to be curious and maybe peeved too. And I'm trying to answer you. I wasn't implying someone was told to go to war. But the fact that alliance has no rules of any kind any attack made by any member can effect all the members of the alliance. There are any number of examples on the CN forum (and perhaps I let them color my thinking too much) where an attack similiar to one Renegade13 made that almost involved the Legion did involve someone like the Legion, well, if it had all the members of the alliances would have been facing the maximum number of wars for as long it took to make us ZI. A prospect I'm sure I found more distateful than you do. With no rules to separate what is approved by the alliance and not approved, many of the other alliances will take that such an attack was approved by the alliance. One of my fears, founded or otherwise, given my reading was given the number of tech raids we were conducting and on targets to me that were increasingly risky (there's a reason behind why an unaligned nation is receiving a million in aid, and to me it usually means the sender is not going to be happy with you and if its an alliance it could mean trouble). WP isn't set up to handle that from what I see. How many aagreements does WP have with other alliances? Does WP even have diplomatic relations with anyone? These things would help in times of misunderstandings. With nothing in place, if someone were to go rogue as say attack the Goons, what do you think would happen? You have no agreement in place to disavow such an event. There are many small alliances that think very much like you do. War is the Game as far as CN goes. The WEPA comes to mind. Even when the five alliances took it to defend the unaligned nation I mentioned earlier. WEPA said basically bring it on, we love a good fight, even if it was they couldn't win and even if it meant they were ZI'd. Even they have rules as to what is acceptable behavior. Without it in times of crisis how can you have meanful conversations with potential adversaries? It wasn't anything I saw happening as much as what I saw could happen. When I went to bed last night the first time, I couldn't sleep for thinking what if I wake in the morning and we're in a war with the Legion over a tech raid. It distrubed so much I went back online and made the move to BTA. It was probably sooner than I would have liked and certainly less smoothly at this end than I would have liked. For that I apologize.

edited to correct word meanings.

[Combat Wombat]

Combat Wombat said:
Alright please make sure you don't mess with people in active alliances because then there will be counter attacks we don't need. Also don't attack someone within team Aqua. Outside of that have fun. Not saying anyone has done either of those things but lets make sure we avoid them.



Just quoting myself from a previous post to clarify my stance on attacking other nations. Also I would like to note no matter what rules any alliance lays down they have no real way to enforce them because you can't kick people out of the alliance just like you can't keep them from joining.

[Renegade 13]

As for my "near miss" with the Legion, well I had no way of knowing that my target was affiliated with them in any way. I also stopped my attacks once I found out the target was affilitated with them. I can't help it if someone shows as not belonging to any alliance, and yet is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Also, I think the people from the Legion who contacted me telling me to stop knew that as well, and wouldn't attack due to that.

As for losing sleep over such a matter...well, personally, I think you're taking it a little too seriously. It's a game, not the end of the world if you are attacked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But really, if you are losing sleep over it, then rectifying that situation is probably the best thing you could do, and I understand why you did switch if that's what was happening.

[Will]

Ok, IF I create a secondary alliance, with a charter laying out rules on when/how/if to attack, and codifying the boosting scheme below, and recruiting guidelines, etc., while still being strongly affiliated with Wombat Protectorate, how many would be interested in joining? My thinking right now would be attack only if someone in the secondary alliance is attacked first, or the nation is in an inactive alliance or unaligned and has not signed on in a week. Anyone involved in boosting cannot be involved in wars for the 10 days of the boosting process plus the two days immediately before (the boostee of course has this enforced by being in peace mode up until the very end).

My main concern in doing this is the threat that some of the more aggressive members of the alliance pose to my more conservative style of play. You all may think it's fine, but I know what I would do if I was in the leadership of one of the huge alliances and raids like Wilhelmia's on a nation that just received a $3,000,000 aid package (either directly or indirectly) annoyed me enough:
1) I would demand full reparations for the raided nation, equal to the amount of cash and tech stolen and soldiers killed, plus 2x the cost for the raided nation to buy back land, infrastructure, and tanks lost
2) When the raider says "Tough luck, I already spent it", and the raider is in an alliance, I would demand that the leadership of that alliance find a way to make equivalent reparations; it would include a suggestion that the reparations be obtained by raiding the rogue nation
3) If that demand is denied (or it's an unaligned nation), then I would take out the reparations manually by having "soldier" nations attack the rogue nation and random nations in the alliance within the strength range. The attacks will stop when either the alliance manages to pay the original reparations demands or the wars expire in a week. I would have the random nations attacked to encourage the alliance to keep members in line. If you want to be a rogue attacking whomever you feel like, then play the Tournament Edition.

[Beck]

I realize you don't know they were affiliated with the Legion and you did everything right. But there are plenty of examples where something goes wrong and I was only using it as an example of the potential pitfalls for pursuing those type of attacks. I know it's a game and I'm not too sure I'm taking it that seriously. If I lost my nation, well it was fun while it lasted. It's just when something is on my mind that is unresolved, my brain keeps me awake working on various solutions or scenarios. It happens only occasionally and rarely over a game. Most times I do fall asleep. I think last night was an exception because I was up so late and had so little sleep that I was tense too. I have no ill feeelings and wish you guys well, I just realized I was in the wrong place is all. Afterall, we all play the best game going Space Empires. So when's that next patch coming out?

[aegisx]

Wow, lots of drama http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

That would work really good Will. The Legion's policy is pretty much as you stated. In fact I am a member of the Defiance Cohort. When a Legion member in my range is attacked they ask for help. An Admiral has to ok the deceleration of help first so there are no accidental treaty violations. Once it is ok'ed if the attacker is in my Cohort range I declare war. Someone from the Legion delivers a nasty gram and if the message is ignored we are let off our chains to ZI them.

[Renegade 13]

ZI??

[Will]

Renegade 13 said:
ZI??


Zero Infrastructure. Basically, you destroy everything the player's nation has. Zero infrastructure means zero citizens means zero taxes means "you can't play anymore".

[Forlorn_Hope]

I like that... "Well, you were playing to win, attacked someone who was getting alliance aid through such convoluted means that the person looked unallied, so we're going to make sure you can't play anymore."

Personally, I offer peace almost immediately after a cattle raid. I'm not trying to ruin the game for anyone, just grab some quick money.

[JeffGeorge]

Beck said:
(I am afterall a wargamer back before you could play them on a computer




I am and always have been a superb counter-puncher.



Counter punching and pre-computer wargames go hand in hand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ASL, anyone?

[JeffGeorge]

Randallw said:
Personally I thought the whole point was a couple of friends here were making an alliance together. One person has cancelled a trade agreement on me without warning because they appear to have jumped ship



That happened to me, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Beck]

JeffGeorge said:

Beck said:
(I am afterall a wargamer back before you could play them on a computer




I am and always have been a superb counter-puncher.



Counter punching and pre-computer wargames go hand in hand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ASL, anyone?



Yes, that does bring back some memories, I probably have about 25,000 counters just for Squad Leader/ASL let alone the 100 or so other games floating around my spare bedroom. And not just punching them out of the sheets but using nail clippers to trim the corners. Boy, how did I ever find the time?

[JeffGeorge]

I usually did the corner clipping while watching TV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I hear ya about the ASL/SL counters stashes. Oy. I was thinking of buying the new version of the ASL Intro Pack to try to teach my 14 year old son to play, but he doesn't even like Up Front. Grrrr! This video game generation just doesn't get it!

So as far as CN, the next step should be to have a SEIV PBW game with the Protectorate members. This newb needs all the schooling in SEIV that I can get!

[Forlorn_Hope]

I don't even play SE-IV xD

[Beck]

I seen the ASL Starters Kits being played at the WBC but haven't actually tried them. I heard a lot of good things about how they're setup for newbies though.

[JeffGeorge]

Beck said:
I seen the ASL Starters Kits being played at the WBC but haven't actually tried them. I heard a lot of good things about how they're setup for newbies though.



Yeah, it's really cool how Curt Schilling took an active part in saving that franchise. Ah, the WBC. I remember attending the very first Avaloncon. Those were the days!

[Beck]

I remember there was a Phillies homestand during an Avaloncon and Curt had his pitching rotation changed so he could attend and play ASL! That's why he helped startup Minuteman Publishing, so he could feed his addiction. Boy, don't I wish I had some of his loose change to feed my addictions.

[JeffGeorge]

Not to pick nits, but I believe it's Multiman Publishing(http://www.multimanpublishing.com/index1.php).

So, are you an east coaster then? I'm not far from Philly or the famous Hunt Valley, MD.

[Beck]

You're right. It is Multiman not sure where my memory came up with Minuteman. Yes, I grew up outside of Philly in Chester County and once I left home I lived in Delaware for 10 years. Now I'm up in New Hampshire.

[capnq]

Randallw said: Personally I thought the whole point was a couple of friends here were making an alliance together.

Didn't think to comment on this until someone else quoted it.

Just because people are friends doesn't mean they have compatible play styles. CW thinks war is the only interesting part of the game; I think the war mechanics look boring and of questionable efficiency in building your nation.

With no real financial commitment involved in playing, I can afford to ally with nations who follow a risky strategy like cattle raiding, but if this were not a free game, I'm not sure how long I'd stay in an alliance as aggressive as the Protectorate has turned out to be.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Well, thankfully, it IS a free game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif In other news, some of you may have noticed that I got bit back pretty hard on one of my cattle raids. Peace has been declared, but Wilhelmia has a little rebuilding to do. Wilhelmia will probably pull another raid tomorrow to recoup some expenses xD

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Well, this is going very well isn't it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've sent four trade offers to as many nations and have just withdrawed them, after about two or three days. I have yet to receive anything period, except auto-generated spam from miscellaneous strangers wanting a trade (which always use the exact same formatting) and one message asking for my vote in a senate election. I'll try and make something out of it, but I do seem to be lagging behind in just about everything, together with a bunch of other forgotten nations on the bottom of the list.

My nation is called Neo-Athenia, btw.

[Will]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
I have yet to receive anything period, except auto-generated spam from miscellaneous strangers wanting a trade (which always use the exact same formatting)


You should know that those trade offers you sent use the exact same auto-generated message that you got from strangers. If you get one, as long as the stranger is on the same team (Aqua), you should just accept it for now. The bonuses you get for accepting are worth a lot more than waiting for putting together all the resources you want long-term.

[AgentZero]

Strategia, I've got a couple open trade slots, but since we share a resource in common (Pigs) it wouldn't be the most profitable agreement. I'd say at this point your best bet would be to accept agreements from other Team Aqua members, or find your own.
Go to the Trade Agreements page, and search for Aqua under Nation Team. This'll bring up a list of everyone in Team Aqua. In the collumn for Resources, you'll see two icons representing their resources, and a little green checkmark under the two icons. If you hover your cursor over the green checkmark, it'll pop up with a little box telling you how many Total, Active and Pending trades someone has. Pick someone with less than 3 active trades and different resources to yourself, and send them a proposal. In my experience they're generally accepted, though prone to being randomly cancelled with no explanation. Such is life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Will said:

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
I have yet to receive anything period, except auto-generated spam from miscellaneous strangers wanting a trade (which always use the exact same formatting)


You should know that those trade offers you sent use the exact same auto-generated message that you got from strangers. If you get one, as long as the stranger is on the same team (Aqua), you should just accept it for now. The bonuses you get for accepting are worth a lot more than waiting for putting together all the resources you want long-term.



Well, OK then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was just browsing the nether regions of the alliance list looking for trade partners, but I'll do what you say, I do need trade after all.

[JeffGeorge]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
Well, this is going very well isn't it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've sent four trade offers to as many nations and have just withdrawed them, after about two or three days. I have yet to receive anything period, except auto-generated spam from miscellaneous strangers wanting a trade (which always use the exact same formatting) and one message asking for my vote in a senate election. I'll try and make something out of it, but I do seem to be lagging behind in just about everything, together with a bunch of other forgotten nations on the bottom of the list.

My nation is called Neo-Athenia, btw.



Ferenczia is open to trades with alliance members.

[capnq]

Fiducia just made a trade offer to Ferenczia.

[Baron Munchausen]

So, has anyone 'done the math' and figured when it's best to start buying improvements instead of just more infrastructure? Of course the military improvements are useful whenever you need military power, but the financial ones like the bank or the 'social' ones like schools or clinics are harder to figure out the cost-benefit situation for.

[Beck]

Baron Munchausen said:
So, has anyone 'done the math' and figured when it's best to start buying improvements instead of just more infrastructure? Of course the military improvements are useful whenever you need military power, but the financial ones like the bank or the 'social' ones like schools or clinics are harder to figure out the cost-benefit situation for.



Math is different though depending on resources, infrastructure,etc. I read the programmer intended for it to be hard to figure out, we're to learn by doing. The general rules of thumb is around 1500 NS and you shouldn't have to save more than 2-3 days. You get no absolute consensus on which to buy first, but the general consensus all things being equal, is to buy the harbor first as this gives you an trade for resources. YMMV

[Randallw]

I read a recommendation that you build up 200 Infrastructure before you start buying improvements and then it suggest Harbour be the first improvement.

[JeffGeorge]

capnq said:
Fiducia just made a trade offer to Ferenczia.



Approved. I still have one slot open to trade my iron and gems if anyone else needs them.

[Forlorn_Hope]

A new day of peace and prosperity has dawned over the nation of Wilhelmia! Today, for the first time since the founding of the nation, there is total and complete peace throughout the land. The soldiers relax, the children play in the streets, and all is well. To celebrate this newfound peacefulness, we shall go to war! Hurrah!

[Forlorn_Hope]

To update: I did some fun stuff, walked off with $110,000, but, they want to heavily go to war with me. I'm in peace mode right now, so they can't touch me. I'm going to withdraw from the alliance for now, just in case they decide to try to hurt some of you guys.

[Beck]

Hey, you guys. Just some advice. I noticed that New Norge is under attack by Hiroku. Hiroku claims to be a member of GATO. That may or may not be true. There have been a lot of rogues running using bogus alliance affiliations. Someone really ought to check with GATO and see if he's a member or not before deciding how to proceed or you could bring GATO down on you if you're not careful. Good Luck.

[Will]

He's out of my strength range. Most I can do is send a decent sized aid package in a few days. I'll want to time it with whoever is playing New Norge, though, so somebody else doesn't attack and steal the funds.

Also, if anyone has any open trade slots, and wants Furs and Spices, send Jraenar an offer. I got a harbor, but haven't been able to keep the fifth trade slot filled.

[Tnargversion2]

Well what a bugger!

"General Dispute" attacked by Hiroku from the GATO allaince, the Ruler is Sobahi, attacking with 49 soldiers.

Looking for recomendations on whether I should contact some of the leadership of the GATO alliance to find out what this individuals "General Dispute" beef is.

Crap!!

:. Planned Ground Attack

New Norge

Hiroku

Attacking Ruler: Hovland Defending Ruler: sobashi
Deployed Soldiers: 0 Defending Soldiers: 136
Deployed Tanks: 0 Defending Tanks: 5
Attacking Technology: 4.46 Defending Technology: 12.07
Attacking Infrastructure: 88.87 Defending Infrastructure: 36.36
Attacking Land Area: 27.181 Defending Land Area: 286.440
Attacking DEFCON: Defending DEFCON:
Attacking Money: $0.00 Defending Money: $66,352.97
Battle Odds: 0% Chance of Victory Battle Odds: 100% Chance of Victory

I think I might have made an error on this first round.

I ended up purchasing more troops bringing me up to almost a 1000 troops for defense. Of course now my population is not to happy.

My happy-go-lucky Nation has just become POed.

[Beck]

As I suggested above, he may be a rogue just using GATO as his aa to get you think he has powerful friends. You really need someone to find out. Hell, if he is a rogue, GATO may take him out for using their aa, problem solved. I'm leaning toward him being a rogue. He's a young nation in a powerful alliance, yet he has no aid packages from GATO. The one he does have suggests he attacked someone and had to pay reparations.

[Will]

Your problem is you didn't deploy any of your troops. Right above the War & Battles link on the left is one called Deploy Troops. Deploy something like 500 out of your 1000 and you should easily crush him (and possibly lose enough to bump you under the 80% happiness threshold).

If you're still online, I can send you about $100k to boost up your infrastructure, which should also help.

[Tnargversion2]

Looks like he is part of GATO ranked 902 out of their 1089 Nations.

902) Hiroku 12/8/2006 2:08:37 PM 753.68 8.19 240.74 36.36 12.07

Latest intel on this guy:
Nation Name: Hiroku
Ruler: sobashi
Last Activity: 3/9/2007 3:21:35 PM
National Flag:
Alliance Affiliation: Global Alliance and Treaty Organization
About Hiroku: I have very powerful allies
Government Type: Dictatorship (Next Available Change 3/2/2007)
Nation Team: - Brown
Nation Created: 12/8/2006 2:08:37 PM (92 days old)
Area of Influence: 363.975 mile diameter.
317.770 from purchases/sales/gains, 46.205 from natural growth.
War/Peace Preference: War is an option for Hiroku.
Their Resources:
Connected Resources:
Bonus Resources: None
Improvements: No improvements purchased.
National Wonders: No national wonders.
Senate Votes: 0 Votes
_:. Military Information
Nation Strength: 753.683 (My nation strength is: 478.143)
Nation Rank: Ranked #25,058 of 40,774 total nations
Efficiency: 8.19
DEFCON Level:
Number of Soldiers: 386
Number of Tanks: 11
Aircraft: 0
Number of Cruise Missiles: 0
Number of Nuclear Weapons: 0
Number of Soldiers Lost in All Wars. 49 Attacking + 0 Defending = 49 Casualties
Total Population: 851 Supporters

I have close to a thousand troops he has only 386.
The 11 tanks is what concerns me, I have none.

[Tnargversion2]

First counter attack:

Battle Type: Standard Ground Attack
Battle Outcome: Victory
New Norge Casualties: 32 soldiers
0 tanks
Hiroku Casualties: 88 soldiers
5 tanks
Battle Details: Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 9.629 miles of land from Hiroku. They also destroyed 1.454 infrastructure within Hiroku. They also stole 0.604 technology from Hiroku. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $3,981.18 from the nation of Hiroku.

[Tnargversion2]

2nd attack:

Battle Type: Aggressive Ground Attack
Battle Outcome: Victory
New Norge Casualties: 108 soldiers
0 tanks
Hiroku Casualties: 236 soldiers
6 tanks
Battle Details: Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 9.244 miles of land from Hiroku. They also destroyed 1.396 infrastructure within Hiroku. They also stole 0.573 technology from Hiroku. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $623.72 from the nation of Hiroku.

[Tnargversion2]

If anyone from the Wombat Protectorate wants to step in and teach this Nation a lesson feel free. His defenses are down to pretty much nothing now. I am not sure were his $66000 aid package went, perhaps the 6 additional tanks from his original 5.

[Randallw]

I thought I'd give it a go but he's outside my range.

[Combat Wombat]

I am contacting GATO to figure out whats going on. After I get a response which I predict will say hes not with them I will be happy to help bring the pwn down on him.

[Combat Wombat]

I am contacting GATO to figure out whats going on. After I get a response which I predict will say hes not with them I will be happy to help bring the pwn down on him.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Right now I'm prepping my nation for a two month storage for when I'm in boot camp. Sorry I can't help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Atrocities]

Here are what expert players consider to be the BEST resource combinations possible in cyber nation:

Combo 1. Aluminum, Cattle, Fish, Gems, Iron, Lumber, Marble, Pigs, Spices, Sugar, Water, and Wheat
Combo 2. (Close second) Aluminum, Cattle, Fish, Iron, Lumber, Marble, Pigs, Spices, Sugar, Water, Wheat, and Wine
Combo 3. (Same as second) Aluminum, Cattle, Fish, Iron, Lumber, Marble, Pigs, Silver, Spices, Sugar, Water, and Wheat

[GuyOfDoom]

Interesting. So does that mean we should all shoot for those?

[Atrocities]

You should all consider forming a resource union and organize yourselves into groups. You should all try to get harbors as well. (Gives you once more trade slot).

These combinations also give you bonus resources, not sure which ones yet, but I can try and find out.

Good example of Trade Union would be Teams

Union One
Player A has Rubber / Sugar
Player B has Wheat / Wood
Player C has Water / Pig
Placer D has Fish / Aluminum

After you get a Harbor

Player E has Iron / Spices

Each of these players makes trades with each other.

Then with the other players form a similar union but call it Union 2.

[GuyOfDoom]

The sad part for me is that I have oil and wine so I can only make combo 2 at best.

[Atrocities]

Thats not bad though. You still have wine and would work in a trade union. That is what unions are for. Everyone gets a chance to get more. The one I am in helps me greatly.

[Tnargversion2]

Well I have lead and water now availabe being that someone from our allaince left and broke their trade agreement with me.

[Atrocities]

Trade Unions help to keep that sort of thing to a minimum. Once you have a good trade union all the members are getting the best benefit they can, why leave?

[Atrocities]

Tnarg? Dude, where the hell have you been the last year or so?

[GuyOfDoom]

How do you find these "trade unions"? I'm just starting to go through my trades and get new ones that match the "optimal" setup.

[Renegade 13]

Guess I got the short straw then when I got coal and uranium... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

...Trains and nukes?

[Will]

I would have thought that Aluminum, Cattle, Coal, Gold, Iron, Lead, Lumber, Marble, Oil, Rubber, Water, and Wheat would be the best combo. All the individual bonuses plus Asphalt, Automobiles, Beer, Construction, Microchips, Scholars, and Steel.

And we probably do need to try forming trade unions, I got a harbor and have never been able to keep 5 slots filled for more than a day. And now I have four filled with one overlapping resource.

I have Fur and Spices. Who wants to try to make this work?

[Tnargversion2]

Atrocities said:
Tnarg? Dude, where the hell have you been the last year or so?



Got wrapped up in switching jobs and going back to school.

It's good to be back though.

[NullAshton]

Muuwaahaahaa! The dragon republic is now on the map!

And slowly taking over Japan with a strength of 177 or so... I got Aluminum and Oil from the start, so my military is doing pretty good.

Tomorrow... WE SHALL GO TO WAR!

[capnq]

Atrocities said:These combinations also give you bonus resources, not sure which ones yet, but I can try and find out.

All of the resources, bonus resources, game effects, and the combinations they require are listed at the More Information links; "Their Resources" and "Bonus Resources" both link to the same forums thread.

[capnq]

Today "land of the dead" declared war on our ally Dragon Republic, possibly in retaliation for the Dragons' attack on Hedoni. Fiducia has offered a quite small aid package to help defend the Dragons; it's not obvious from the info I have whether/how much aid is needed.

[NullAshton]

Both attacks for the day was done, with minimal losses. I actually got more out of the war than I lost, because of abandoned equipment. I'm also at defcon 1, while he's still at defcon 5.

[GuyOfDoom]

Out of curiousity what does everyone have for their hapiness rating?

[Renegade 13]

Tyyria offers $3000 and 175 soldiers to our attacked ally.

My happiness rating is sitting at 19.30, even with my tax rate at 23%.

[NullAshton]

I have very happy, but that's a bit off since I have too strong of a military, and at defcon 1.

[GuyOfDoom]

Wow, the highest I've seen is 19.1. Right now I'm at about 17.1

[aegisx]

I've been over 20. But Im lower now.

[Baron Munchausen]

I've been as high as 24 but I keep getting deserted by trading partners. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif People keep moving to other alliances and costing me nice trade advantages, and I'm getting ticked off.

[AgentZero]

Damn, my happiness is 12.5. Still, that's enough for my people to adore me, so it'll do for now.

[Will]

Once upon a time I was 23.21. Now it's down to 18.21, because of lost trades (one cancellation, one because of inactive account deletion).

Also, you might be interested to know that without any other modifiers, a +1 happiness is the same as +$2 citizen income. Which is the same as a $0.56/citizen tax boost at 28% taxation.

[GuyOfDoom]

Nice, so has anyone figured out the "optimal" tax rate?

[Beck]

Happiness is relative, you can't look at someone's high number and think you're lacking. It's a function of how large you are, ie. how much tech you have and what improvements you have (stadiums give you a big +3). The older nations with many improvements and high tech are achieving happiness in 60+ range. If you compare 3 week old nations with 3 week old nations or better yet 500 NS to 500 NS, you're more in the ballpark of how you're doing. I could make my happiness even higher if I lowered my Tax Rate from 28% (which is -7 happiness for me) but I wouldn't make as much money. And that my friends is where it's really at. Happiness is only part of the formula. People tend to focus too heavily on happiness level to the exclusion of making the most money possible.

[GuyOfDoom]

I know that Happiness factors into making money, which is why I was asking.

[Atrocities]

Man this game is boring.

[Beck]

GuyofDoom, there are five optimal tax rates, 16%, 20%, 23%, 25%, and 28%. What this means is you have the same income level and happiness effect at 10% as 16%, so you might as well be at 16% if you want to go low and make more money. 17% has the same income level and happiness effect as 20% and so forth. So your tax rate should be set at one the five I listed. By and large YMMV, 28% despite hitting you with a hefty happiness burden, still brings in the money, which like I said earlier is where its at. There are situations where the other tax rates can make you more money. You need to apply each rate on your nation and see what the differences are and pick the one where you make the most money. The only purpose of happiness is to make money, so if you have to give up some to make, then do it. You don't have to check everyday, but a week is usually good unless you add a stadium or something else that radically changes your happiness level. Mine has been at 28% virtually the entire time I've been playing.

[Atrocities]

Also save up and buy improvements. A Harbor, University, Factories, Schools, Hospital and so on.

[Beck]

Atrocities, I agree with you the basic game principles are weak and boring, it's the human element that still has me playing the game. That's one reason when I switched I didn't go with one of the giant alliances to become a face in the crowd. Here I can play a larger role than I probably ever could have in a larger alliance if I played for the next ten years.

[Baron Munchausen]

Atrocities said:
Man this game is boring.



It's pretty clearly meant to be a social game. You are supposed to be forced to wheel-n-deal with other players to keep your trading relationships, form military alliances, etc. In this sense it's more like Diplomacy where there are only two kinds of units, armies and navies (and where the 'pieces' are chunks of wood), because details of tactics or technology are not what the game is about. So for detail-oriented introverts like most 4X players are, this is a rather boring game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Beck]

Agreed, though for once and I'm not a Diplomacy kinda guy, I am enjoying some of the interplay more than I have in the past.

[Combat Wombat]

Ok I have gotten word from the Federation of Armed Nations that land of the dead is not really with them and they encourage us to beat the [censored] out of him. So have at him guys!

My happiness is 23.11 at a tax rate of 28% which currently gets me $25.90 in taxes per citizen.

Also guys you are trying to get way to much out of this little browser game it is not meant to be anything more than something you check once or twice a day to help pass the time, don't try to take it to seriously.

[Atrocities]

CW, how large are you now?

[Combat Wombat]

Nation strength of over 1750

[Atrocities]

Does population happiness over high taxation affect anything?

[Combat Wombat]

Atrocities said:
Does population happiness over high taxation affect anything?



I haven't had any problems been running at 28% for a few days and before that I was at 23%(which I recommend as the sweet spot for taxes until you get improvements).

[Renegade 13]

Combat Wombat said:
Also guys you are trying to get way to much out of this little browser game it is not meant to be anything more than something you check once or twice a day to help pass the time, don't try to take it to seriously.

I agree, I spend maybe 5-10 minutes each day, check up on stuff, and then on to the next thing. Gives me my bit of fun for a few minutes each day, all I ask of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NullAshton]

Land of the Dead has been destroyed, obliterated by 300 troops knocking on his doorstep. He is now in anarchy, and hopefully the war should end soon.

[Combat Wombat]

Ive past the 2000 nation strength mark! Yaaaaaaa

Just a quick status check everyone in the alliance doing alright? No wars or anything similar?

[Tnargversion2]

Combat Wombat said:
Ive past the 2000 nation strength mark! Yaaaaaaa

Just a quick status check everyone in the alliance doing alright? No wars or anything similar?



I have some flaky trade partners that are from other allainces. I am about to get a harbor in a couple of days, so I will have two more trade slots open (one from an excisting opening, and another from my harbor) and am looking for solid trade partners within our allaince.

I offer the finest water, and abundant supplies of lead. Your population will feel revitalized and refreshed with our Fjord Water and your troops will have unlimited amounts of bullets to practice on the range with.

[Will]

I'll take water and lead! I'm missing having the microprocessor bonus resource. I don't know if my furs and spices will fit in with the rest of your resources, though

[capnq]

Fiducia is thriving, with a strong economy and a local record happiness level. We got a big boost from an aid package from EYoonia.

[Tnargversion2]

Will said:
I'll take water and lead! I'm missing having the microprocessor bonus resource. I don't know if my furs and spices will fit in with the rest of your resources, though



Thanks Will, I will set up a trade option with you as soon as I login in, which will be in just a few minutes.

[Tnargversion2]

Will which nation are you?

[Will]

Oh, sorry, I'm Jraenar.

[NullAshton]

The Dragon Republic will soon have over a thousand citzens, enough to have more trade. Yay! It's developing well with over 10,000 yens earned a day.

[capnq]

I generally only check the CN team forums about once a week, so I only spotted this today. It was posted a week ago by a member of the Coalition of Defensive States.
In the past month there has been a person going from alliance to alliance looking for aid. He says that a member of your alliance, timlee in our case. Anyways the message basically says that the person said that your were to give him aid. Unfortunately some of our members and other have fallen for it. This guy has gone in to peace mode to keep us from attacking him. We have had sanctions put on him but he is still getting trade. I advise you not to trade, send him aid, or do any kind of business with him. Here are his stats.

Nation: Terabithia
Ruler: LordMilenko
Link: Click here. (http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=116625)

I checked the link, and Terabithia is no longer in peace mode, but doesn't appear to be expecting any punitive strikes, so I'm not sure what's really going on. The Foreign Aid page says he has recently received two large aid packages from CDS; apparently he was claiming to be a member of CDS at that time. It just seemed interesting enough to bump this thread with it.

[NullAshton]

Dragon Republic requires Iron and Coal to further their military goals, if anyone has that or knows someone who does have it, please give me a call.

[Renegade 13]

Tyyria broke the 1000 nation power barrier yesterday!

[Atrocities]

Never Mind.........http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/medic.gif

[GuyOfDoom]

Talvonia is growing in strength. Recovering after a few days in Anarchy.

I'm hoping to be number 8 or 9 in the Wombat Protectorate by next week.

[Atrocities]

I just found out something very interesting. It seems the people who manage the game also play the game and are some of the highest ranking players in the game. And most of them are founding members, if not leaders, of most of the major alliances. And they are the ones who take the game into world war when donations start to fall off. It seems that people become complacent in their cyberspace gaming and need an occasional push. So they manufacture a war where a lot of players loose everything they have invested into the game. When the war is over those hard core players shell out $20.00 a pop and get other players to do the same in trade deals so that they can reconstruct their nations.

It is really quite a brilliant little scheme the owners of cybernation have going. And of course, they don't have to work at rebuilding their nations, they simply edit the data files and PRESTO they are back to full strength.

Ya, sounds like a really fun game to be a part of, that is if you enjoy being conned and manipulated.

[Baron Munchausen]

Atrocities said:
I just found out something very interesting. It seems the people who manage the game also play the game and are some of the highest ranking players in the game. And most of them are founding members, if not leaders, of most of the major alliances. And they are the ones who take the game into world war when donations start to fall off. It seems that people become complacent in their cyberspace gaming and need an occasional push. So they manufacture a war where a lot of players loose everything they have invested into the game. When the war is over those hard core players shell out $20.00 a pop and get other players to do the same in trade deals so that they can reconstruct their nations.

It is really quite a brilliant little scheme the owners of cybernation have going. And of course, they don't have to work at rebuilding their nations, they simply edit the data files and PRESTO they are back to full strength.

Ya, sounds like a really fun game to be a part of, that is if you enjoy being conned and manipulated.



Hmm, sounds a lot like real life doesn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I've been contemplating just quitting for some time now. It's an interesting concept, but really, what can you do with this game but build up a nation, go to war, rebuild, etc. It's not got any detailed features. It's really a war simulator at a social level. At least 4X games give you some details to manage.

[Atrocities]

I really would like to see a PC game based on this concept. Right now there are not any games that come this close to what it is to build a nation. Civ tries, but is not the same. This game is more involved than Civ yet still far simpler to play than Civ.

We need a good 4x nation building game. There simply are not any out there.

[Combat Wombat]

Well you won't be conned and manipulated if you don't give them money... kinda of a simple solution

[Atrocities]

Yes I agree. However people have donated a lot of money to the game and recently lost that entire investment of time and cash in the war that is now raging across cybernation. I have to admit that I look at these guys who have spent real money on this game only to have it blown up or stolen with some measure of disbelief. The desire to become a powerful nation is so compelling to them that they would fork over $20 a month and then trade donation for CN cash and such at the rate of $100.00 a month or more only to see all of their hard work nuked out of existence or raided in war. People who have committed that much time and money to this game really need to take a step back and analyze themselves and their situation. They need to think about this very simple fact: when people who run the game can manipulate war on demand, who risk nothing because what they have is a data base entry and not real work or money like what you have invested, then you should stop, step back, and think about what it is your really spending your real money on. Ask yourself the question; is it worth it?

[capnq]

Atrocities said: when people who run the game [...], who risk nothing because what they have is a data base entry and not real work or money

So, coding the game, and buying and maintaining the hardware and database that supports it, doesn't count as "real work or money"?

They do risk losing income from paying players who have become disillusioned, but there are plenty of newbies around to replace them.

[Santiago]

capnq said:

Atrocities said: when people who run the game [...], who risk nothing because what they have is a data base entry and not real work or money

So, coding the game, and buying and maintaining the hardware and database that supports it, doesn't count as "real work or money"?

They do risk losing income from paying players who have become disillusioned, but there are plenty of newbies around to replace them.



I look at it dimly, as I will not give them money. It's probably a hobby and a cash cow for them to pay for the beer. Realistically they should not manipulate the database for their own gain ie Cheating.

[Beck]

Atrocities said:
I just found out something very interesting. It seems the people who manage the game also play the game and are some of the highest ranking players in the game. And most of them are founding members, if not leaders, of most of the major alliances. And they are the ones who take the game into world war when donations start to fall off. It seems that people become complacent in their cyberspace gaming and need an occasional push. So they manufacture a war where a lot of players loose everything they have invested into the game. When the war is over those hard core players shell out $20.00 a pop and get other players to do the same in trade deals so that they can reconstruct their nations.

It is really quite a brilliant little scheme the owners of cybernation have going. And of course, they don't have to work at rebuilding their nations, they simply edit the data files and PRESTO they are back to full strength.

Ya, sounds like a really fun game to be a part of, that is if you enjoy being conned and manipulated.



I'm not sure where you got your information from. It was common knowledge that mods played the game, but as far as I know, none are involved in running alliances. Several of the largest alliances in the game are definitely not being run by admin or his mods. Admin has had a number of quote test nations, and I believe they are marked as such. His attempt to play like you or I ended in failure when he was attacked by \m/. That nation is was ZI'd and he deleted it. If you're suggesting the current GW3 is some sort of cash cow that he started to get money, why has the donation screen been down for most of the war? Further, today I learned that he will not being accepting donations from this point on. Doesn't sound like someone pulling strings from behind the curtain to me. May be a mute point anyway since someone hacked the game computers and the game is off-line, given all the trouble there has been with the CN forums which have been offline since yesterday and the hacking, I wouldn't blame him if he just shut it all down, or did a reset. Have to see how long it's down.

[Atrocities]

It is sad to see that some people have taken their anger out in such a way. It is wrong to do what they did and I hope that they are identified and either civilly or criminally punished for their acts.

That being said there are a lot of very angry players who have lost a lot of time and money and who are rightfully willing to speak their minds. The word has gotten out about the scam and people are understandably up set.

Regardless, I personally don't have a problem with the game. I would just hope that in the future it be posted, if donations continue, that the investment could be lost and that the game is controlled by players who haven't earned anything, they were given power via data base manipulations.

Of course the game admin would deny this, but the truth is out now and there is little more that can be said.

[Randallw]

Your cynicism is interesting. I have no intention of donating anything anyway but before CN I was playing another game where I did spend some money to gain playing pieces. I haven't played it for a month or so, and I don't regret the money I spent as I didn't spend all that much. I enjoyed the game, but at the moment I have some obligations to carry out instead ie. I need to finish a mod I promised people 6 months ago. Sorry, not a SE mod.

Anyway what I do have to say is that I can't play CN today because the admin has closed it while he deals with some problems. I can understand this under the conditions he mentions, however, and I feel slightly guilty about this, I am paranoid and a cynic, so when he states that his wife has just happened to also have a child right at the same time I start getting suspicious. Has he made this up as an excuse while he messes with things as you seem to imply?. Play on peoples guilt so that if he reboots the game people won't want to be critical. Perhaps I am just too cynical to accept such things at face value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif.

[GuyOfDoom]

I'm really curious as to why he would even be thinking about Cybernations when supposedly had his first child unless it's somehow related to his income.

[Randallw]

perhaps he's just doing it out of some charitable consideration for other people.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

if you didn't get it, that was an attempt at a joke.

[Baron Munchausen]

This is most ironic. I had finally resolved to QUIT and I can't login to do so.

[Combat Wombat]

Baron Munchausen said:
This is most ironic. I had finally resolved to QUIT and I can't login to do so.



If your gonna aid me as much as you can

[GuyOfDoom]

I'll take some help too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Combat Wombat said:

Baron Munchausen said:
This is most ironic. I had finally resolved to QUIT and I can't login to do so.



If your gonna aid me as much as you can



Well, I haven't used the 'sell things off' part of the interface yet. I suppose I can try to figure out how to send you something before I shut down my cyber nation.

[Beck]

Just so you know, you'll not be able to delete your nation if you have any active aid or war slots. Of course you can take the lazy man option and do nothing and it wll be deleted for you after 20 days in inactivity.

[Baron Munchausen]

So, if I send anyone aid I have to wait 10 days for the entries to clear? Argh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Atrocities]

Here is a scary thought. He stated in his comments that someone has hacked into his system and stoled the source code. What else did they get? Your user name and email addresses. Think about that for a second, now your email address is in the hands of people competent enough to actually crack your password and access your emails. Nice.

[Randallw]

I always use my hotmail account if I have any doubts about a site. so if they get my hotmail account they can read all the spam, oh and the occasional SE related message. I only use my family email when I am absolutely sure I can trust a source.

[Combat Wombat]

Atrocities said:
Here is a scary thought. He stated in his comments that someone has hacked into his system and stoled the source code. What else did they get? Your user name and email addresses. Think about that for a second, now your email address is in the hands of people competent enough to actually crack your password and access your emails. Nice.



He has also said the database is still secure... stop fear-mongering please. Also Atrocities people can get your email address from anywhere....

[Combat Wombat]

Oh guys now is the time to declare war on neutrals! They have a bunch of cash because the game has been down. Suck them dry! I am already at war with 2 neutrals and am getting a fair ammount of free stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, and those same neutrals might spend the other 90 percent of their cash that you don't get in the aid on military upgrades.

[GuyOfDoom]

It seems quite a few have been picked apart already

[Combat Wombat]

Baron Munchausen said:
Hmm, and those same neutrals might spend the other 90 percent of their cash that you don't get in the aid on military upgrades.



So? Even if the ones I was attacking weren't inactive and half my power I still have so many troops that any loses in counter attacks I might have would be negligible, also man no risk=no gain you can just let your nation sit and do nothing but then what would be the point in even playing the game?

[Baron Munchausen]

Combat Wombat said:
So? Even if the ones I was attacking weren't inactive and half my power I still have so many troops that any loses in counter attacks I might have would be negligible, also man no risk=no gain you can just let your nation sit and do nothing but then what would be the point in even playing the game?



Yeah, that's exactly what I've been thinking for a while now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It's an interesting concept, but ultimately boring in practice. You have to like the 'political' aspect of it to find it any fun. I'm trying to decide what to do with my 'back taxes' now. Send someone some aid or just quit?

[GuyOfDoom]

If the game is boring then I don't see a point in continuing to play, but if you do hang on I'll take a handout or two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Combat Wombat]

I am willing to take everything you don't need anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NullAshton]

I'm trying to get as powerful as I can. I've had some fun wars, especially the one with land of the dead.

Ooo, I'll take handouts too! Dragon Republic always accepts foreign aid!

[AgentZero]

I'm not sure if I'd want aid or not. I've done a pretty good job of not being noticed thus far and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

[NullAshton]

I haven't been noticed, but... I have pretty much max military for my size, and I'm fairly confident that I can withstand most wars.

[Baron Munchausen]

AgentZero said:
I'm not sure if I'd want aid or not. I've done a pretty good job of not being noticed thus far and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.



Well, to avoid being attacked you want military aid, or tech levels, instead of money. Only money can be stolen in 'cattle raids'...

[Beck]

That's not entirely true. Any battle can bring about the capture of land, tech or money.

[Atrocities]

Combat Wombat said:

Atrocities said:
Here is a scary thought. He stated in his comments that someone has hacked into his system and stoled the source code. What else did they get? Your user name and email addresses. Think about that for a second, now your email address is in the hands of people competent enough to actually crack your password and access your emails. Nice.



He has also said the database is still secure... stop fear-mongering please. Also Atrocities people can get your email address from anywhere....




"Important: If you receive a spam email to your email address purporting to link to Cyber Nations source code or other tools do not follow the links or open any attachments in the email. It has been reported that these emails contain key logger viruses. If you think you've already been infected with these viruses update and run your anti-virus programs now. "



Need I say more?