OT: Cyber Nation

[Combat Wombat]

http://www.cybernations.net/

Make a nation
Join team Aqua
Set alliance to Wombat Protectorate

If you have any questions feel free to ask them here.

[Randallw]

Is there a period before my nation is created?. I created it but neither I nor my nation appears when I make a search.

[Combat Wombat]

Not sure about that, I don't think I had any problem like that for mine. What is your nation called?

[Tnargversion2]

Wow this is great!

Just created my nation:
New Norge based in Oslo Norway.
Belong to team Aqua; however, I couldn't find the Wombat Protectorate.

[Combat Wombat]

goto edit my nation
goto the alliance drop down and select specify other
then type in Wombat Protectorate

[aegisx]

the Aegis Republic has joined the Wombat Protectorate.

[GuyOfDoom]

The mighty Talvonia has allied with the Wombat Protectorate.

[Baron Munchausen]

And where is the Wombat Protectorate located on the map?

[Combat Wombat]

Alliances dont have any territory. My nation however is currently based in Houston, Texas.

[Baron Munchausen]

Ok, you've now got Hollin, a 'nation' of nerdy Tolkien fans, in your alliance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Now that I'm in the game, though, I suppose I'll start wanting to upgrade everything and treat it like SimCity.

[Atrocities]

Atrocitonia as joined the Wombat Protectorate

Atrocitonia is a small and new nation at 0 days old with citizens primarily of Caucasian ethnicity who follow mixed religions. It is a backwards nation when it comes to technology and many refer to it unkindly as a 'Third World Nation'. Its citizens enjoy freedom from high taxation and as a result tend to earn more money. The citizens of Atrocitonia work diligently to produce Sugar and Rubber as tradable resources for their nation. The government has no definite position on foreign affairs at this time. When it comes to nuclear weapons Atrocitonia has no definite position and is therefore considered opposed to them. Atrocitonia has no definite position on drug use in the country at this time. Atrocitonia has no definite position on domestic issues concerning government protests in the country at this time. It has no definite position on new immigration. Atrocitonia has no definite position on free speech. Atrocitonia has no definite foreign aid at this time. Atrocitonia has no definite position on trade relations.

[Atrocities]

How do you JOIN the protectorate?

[Atrocities]

Oh this is an interesting game. Reminds me of Earth 2041 (?)

[Baron Munchausen]

OK, accept my offer of a trade agreement and we're both gonna get good things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

Done. I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Yep, it shows on my nation profile. This helps both our income and population happiness a little bit. We need to get important things like iron and coal to get really powerful.

[Randallw]

I guess soemthing went wrong the first time. Anyhow Demon Island has now declared its independence.

As part of my doctrine of giving the people what they need not what they foolishly want, I am going to try and stick to my government and religion no matter what.

My nation seems to produce Iron and what appears to be bullets (Lead). It's not quite an economy based on blood and steel but it's close. I like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

We need land, infrastructure and TAX dollars. I need population.. So I guess I need land and Infrastructure to get that. Plus rich folks like to be well defended so I need to build up military. (Which makes me a target for attack.)

[Baron Munchausen]

And now you've got a pending trade agreement from me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

And one from me as well.

[Randallw]

Baron, which are you, Hollin or Goatneckistan?

[Atrocities]

Damn it, my population are lazy bastards!

[Baron Munchausen]

I am 'Hollin' the Geek nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If I can get Libertatis to approve the trade deal pending with him, I'll have both lumber and lead, giving me the bonus resource "scholars"! Which will make me very happy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I don't know why you need lead to have scholars, though. Could it be related to the mythical material Adminstratium? ??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Randallw]

Demon Island is a small and new nation at 0 days old with citizens primarily of Caucasian ethnicity whose religion is Christianity. It is a backwards nation when it comes to technology and many refer to it unkindly as a 'Third World Nation'. Its citizens enjoy freedom from high taxation and as a result tend to earn more money. The citizens of Demon Island work diligently to produce Lead and Iron as tradable resources for their nation. It is an aggressive country that some say has an itch for war. It believes nuclear weapons are necessary for the security of its people. The military of Demon Island has been positioned at all border crossings and is arresting all drug traffickers. Demon Island does not allow any form of government protests. Its armed police forces work quickly at "dissolving" any and all government protests. It's borders are closed to all forms of immigration. Demon Island detains individuals who participated in the slanderous comments about the government. The government of Demon Island has no compassion for other people of the world and does not contribute to foreign aid. The government of Demon Island will trade with any other country regardless of ethical consequences.

addendum: apparently due to my natural resources all weapons are cheaper for me.

[Combat Wombat]

Randall Iron and Lead combo is a rare one. I may want to trade with you down the line if my current iron/lead person drops the trade with me. I think the only combo I have seen thats rarer is iron and coal, at least in team aqua.

Try to trade within the allinace first guys, if that doesn't get you what you need trade within in the team. If you trade out of the team you lose happiness bonuses from trades.

[AgentZero]

Agentia is a small and new nation at 0 days old with citizens primarily of Caucasian ethnicity whose religion is Voodoo. It is a backwards nation when it comes to technology and many refer to it unkindly as a 'Third World Nation'. Its citizens enjoy freedom from high taxation and as a result tend to earn more money. The citizens of Agentia work diligently to produce Pigs and Water as tradable resources for their nation. The government has no definite position on foreign affairs at this time. Agentia is currently researching nuclear technology for the use of nuclear power plants but believes nuclear weapons should be banned. Plans are on the way within Agentia to open new rehabilitation centers across the nation and educate its citizens of the dangers of drug use. Agentia allows its citizens to protest their government but uses a strong police force to monitor things and arrest lawbreakers. It has an open border policy, but in order for immigrants to remain in the country they will have to become citizens first. Free speech is considered taboo in Agentia. The government gives foreign aid when it can, but looks to take care of its own people first. The government of Agentia will trade with any other country regardless of ethical consequences.


Now someone trade with me! How am I supposed to get by on pork and water?!

[Renegade 13]

Tyyria is a small and new nation at 0 days old with citizens primarily of Norwegian ethnicity who follow no religion. It is a backwards nation when it comes to technology and many refer to it unkindly as a 'Third World Nation'. Its citizens enjoy freedom from high taxation and as a result tend to earn more money. The citizens of Tyyria work diligently to produce Uranium and Coal as tradable resources for their nation. It is a very passive country when it comes to foreign affairs and has no interests in war. It believes nuclear weapons are necessary for the security of its people. The military of Tyyria has been positioned at all border crossings and is arresting all drug traffickers. Tyyria allows its citizens to protest their government but uses a strong police force to monitor things and arrest lawbreakers. It's borders are closed to all forms of immigration. Tyyria believes in the freedom of speech and feels that it is every citizens right to speak freely about their government. The government of Tyyria has no compassion for other people of the world and does not contribute to foreign aid. The government of Tyyria will trade with any other country regardless of ethical consequences.

[Randallw]

Having pigs seems to decrease the cost of soldiers. I assume the soldiers live on a diet of pork and beans. It also feeds your population. Makes me wonder what happens if your nation is Jewish.

On another note now I am trading for Coal I can produce Steel. I'm half way to my blood and steel economy.

[Santiago]

The Kingdom of Tol Erressea has joined the Wombat Protectorate. We can supply the Finest Furs and our Rubber Plantations are doing well.

[aegisx]

So, when do we start conquering people? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

We currently provide Water and marble

[Tnargversion2]

I am having trouble with finding where to accept a trade offer.

[Combat Wombat]

hahha I will pick out some targets this weekend if you guys really want to start getting violent about this so soon.

[aegisx]

hehe, well we are getting pretty large, so it might be fun.

[Tnargversion2]

So, I just discovered that my nation is right smack in the heart of the number 38 ranked nation: Skandinavia, Orange Team, and belongs to the Independant Republic of Orange Nations.

How does this work? This nation covers a large portion of the European Area and there are there are several other nations, The Pharmacy, Black Team which belongs to the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving and is ranked #22, for example. Both of these nations land mass goes over eachother, and mine obviously is right smack in the middle. Am I taking land from them, or vice versa. And what is to stop them from snuffing my tiny, newly organizing nation.

[Santiago]

Ranked #37,529 of 38,798 total nations

lol seems a way to go yet

[Baron Munchausen]

Tnargversion2 said:
So, I just discovered that my nation is right smack in the heart of the number 38 ranked nation: Skandinavia, Orange Team, and belongs to the Independant Republic of Orange Nations.




Ouch... IRON is a very strong team.


Tnargversion2 said:
How does this work? This nation covers a large portion of the European Area and there are there are several other nations, The Pharmacy, Black Team which belongs to the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving and is ranked #22, for example. Both of these nations land mass goes over eachother, and mine obviously is right smack in the middle. Am I taking land from them, or vice versa. And what is to stop them from snuffing my tiny, newly organizing nation.



Territorial conflict does lead to war, yes. New nations are invulnerable for the first three days even if 'war is an option'. It seems likely you will have to start over in another location. But how did you discover that you are in someone else's territory? I haven't found any way to discover neighbors yet. I'd like to know if my careful attempt NOT to start in an obviously prime (and so already occupied) location has worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[aegisx]

Does position actually matter? I figured it was more of an indication of your size, rather then an actual location that matters.

[Renegade 13]

That's what I thought as well.

As a side note, my population now adores me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Arkcon]

I used to enjoy this site here: web page (http://www.nationstates.net/) (at least until I lost my password). Warfare and alliance options are seriously limited, but there's a real tongue in cheek sense of humor to the laws and edicts you're expected to rule on.

[Tnargversion2]

I looked at the Top 50 Nations and there is a map with their icons.

I am assuming that these circles are more a less a representation of nation size and doesn't really depict actual land area owned. I think if that was the case the entire globe would be covered with nations and all of their territories overlapping, there would be mass chaos.

It would be neat if there was an actual border system though.

[Combat Wombat]

I don't think anyone from IRON will goto war because you are close to them on the map. I wouldn't worry about being attacked right now. Just make sure you don't stay in peace mode because its really hinders your nations development.

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, this game is turning out to be much less sophisticated than it looked. The map is really just a small factor in what is going on. It's mostly a 'spreadsheet' game of investing in your country to make it grow as fast as possible and strategizing about when to go to war, how much to prepare for defense, etc. Not bad, but not as much fun as it originally looked like.

[Randallw]

While initially waiting for my nation to start, as I said I must have made a mistake the first time, I started getting disenchanted when I realised I couldn't conquer other countries. Now I have my own country I am sort of anxious to see how it works.

One thing that occurred to me was if there were other nations near me. Turns out there are 3 other nations in Tasmania I could find. One is a little green one in the nearby national park. My first target I think. One is up north and not really a problem for the time being, but there is a large established nation encompassing the entire island. I suppose I'll keep quiet. He won't even know I exist untill I grow so large I can defeat him. I'm not too happy with having my nation inside his though. The following won't make much sense to anyone who isn't Tasmanian but his capital is in Queenstown. Queenstown! I'm not taking orders from someone who can't even grow decent vegetation. His environament rating must be 0 since excessive mining killed off everything.

[capnq]

Arkcon said:
I used to enjoy this site here: web page (http://www.nationstates.net/)

I played there until the events got repetitve. My country there spent almost its entire existance rated "Capitalist Paradise", with a brief excusion into "Corporate Bordello". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif I'm using the same country name and flag as I did there.

The Corporate State of Fiducia was founded primarily to provide a tax haven for multinational corporations. The government's top priority is to keep the economy dynamic and growing. Fiducia is centered somewhere around Buenos Aires, and produces Cattle and Wheat.

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, the Wombat Protectorate is not listed in the Cyber Nations Wiki with the others:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Alliances

I presume that Combat Wombat himself is the founder and 'owner' of this alliance and ought to do the update?

[Combat Wombat]

Lets hope they dont require me to register to edit the page...

edit: ok no registration required, we are now on the list of alliances and I made a one sentence place holder for the alliance page if someone else wants to elaborate they are welcome to.

[Will]

Joined. Nation Jraenar, placed in Madagascar. I have fur and spices... meh.

[Baron Munchausen]

Note: One member of our alliance belongs to a different team. J-Leasy is a member of Team Green. Is this allowed? Or should someone message him to switch to the right team?

[Combat Wombat]

He is switching as soon as he can. He is stuck at green for a certin ammount of time because he voted in their senate race or something. Don't trade with him till hes in Aqua.

[Baron Munchausen]

Yikes! Someone with more power than the whole rest of the alliance has just joined! Who is this?

[Suicide Junkie]

A moocher planning to use his power to vote himself all your wealth?

[Baron Munchausen]

I didn't know that alliances were democratic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Actually, we newbies are expecting aid from the more powerful members of the alliance. It would be nice if this guy would send us some aid. He's already got more population (and therefore tax base) than all the rest of us combined.

[Combat Wombat]

Hes a friend don't worry about him trying to sieze power or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I am planning to start sending out aid once I get out of peace mode.

[Combat Wombat]

I have begun attacking http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=43721

He is bigger than me but I think I can win and if I do lots of fun stuff for me! Wish me luck.

[aegisx]

So, what do you get from winning a war?

[Combat Wombat]

You get technology and land.

War Report

Alright after hitting him twice with my troops and a tank I did only minor damage. He has now hit back and taken some tech and land from me. Nothing major. We then declared peace. I actually learned alot about how the wars work in this game. So if anyone has any questions I am now more qualifed to answer.

[aegisx]

Can allies combine forces to attack?

[Baron Munchausen]

When one of our alliance members is attacked we can send them 'aid' in the form of our own military forces. I dunno if you can then use the forces lent by others to attack.

[Combat Wombat]

aegisx I need you to do a massive favor for me, I am gonna offer you a trade but youve already for the resources I am going to offer so I need you to cancel the trades that give you what i am offering. You are the only person in the team or alliance that can help me with this trade.

[aegisx]

cm: done.

[Tnargversion2]

Has anyone been paying attention to their government and religious types. My Nation's folks were ok with their current Federal Government but the majority preferred a more temporary one so I swithched it to a Temporary Government in the Edit my Nation section and bam, instant population happiness boost!

Now in the religious section it is saying that my people are happy with my mixed religion but:

"Your people approve of this national religion but the majority of your people would prefer something else. They desire to follow a religion that seeks freedom from greed, hatred and delusion, and enlightenment through realizing the Four Noble Truths and following the Eightfold Path."

I tried to switch it to the Baha'i Faith (random guess) to see if that would change anything; however, this must have been incorrect. Anyone know what religion the Four Noble Truths and following the Eightfold Path might be?

[Combat Wombat]

Islam? I ca't say I am an expert on religion, I am still working on my peoples religions too.

[Randallw]

Speaking as someone with a pile of D&D manuals and since I have been going through my deity books it sounds like a fantasy religion, so Wiccan or Satanic perhaps. They're the same thing.

Whereas I can see that people might want another government, don't know why though since they all adore me, all 100 of them, I refuse to be forced into what religion my people want just because it has randomnly be chosen. I will not be changing my government or religion. The people seem happy enough as it is and as long as I have trade bonuses I see no need and otherwise I am too stubborn to give in anyway.

[Baron Munchausen]

Tnargversion2 said:
Has anyone been paying attention to their government and religious types. My Nation's folks were ok with their current Federal Government but the majority preferred a more temporary one so I swithched it to a Temporary Government in the Edit my Nation section and bam, instant population happiness boost!

Now in the religious section it is saying that my people are happy with my mixed religion but:

"Your people approve of this national religion but the majority of your people would prefer something else. They desire to follow a religion that seeks freedom from greed, hatred and delusion, and enlightenment through realizing the Four Noble Truths and following the Eightfold Path."

I tried to switch it to the Baha'i Faith (random guess) to see if that would change anything; however, this must have been incorrect. Anyone know what religion the Four Noble Truths and following the Eightfold Path might be?



The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are from Buddhism. Your population wants to be Buddhist.

[AgentZero]

I've got a Transitory government and Voodoo religion, and it says my population would prefer different of both, yet they still adore me. Can population do more than adore? I'd like to be worshiped.

[Randallw]

Some Red Frogs (French communist nation) invaded and destroyed my soldiers. I bought some more but how does combat work. Which attack action is best?

[Will]

CW would probably be the one to ask, since he's just gone through that. I would help retaliate or send aid, but I'm still within the 3-day no-attack window, and apparently cannot do either. But the guy is down to 2 soldiers, so easy pickin's for anyone who can attack.

--edit: Nevermind, I guess I can attack. I sent 24 (out of 64) troops to attack him (standard attack). I lost 0, he lost 0, and all I got out of it was... $0.19. Bleh.

[Randallw]

I bought more troops and sent them overseas right into an aggresive attack which wiped out his army and sent him into anarchy, like me. What I find odd is his nation is no older than mine, how did he DoW? (Declaration of war)

Here's what was interesting. I bought dozens of troops, so much in fact my people got angry at them all. I deployed most of them, leaving 20 behind to patrol the lawless streets. Then I attacked him, but I took losses, and what is interesting is I could still buy troops today so I bought more, replacing the ones I lost but also creating more stability, and I have less troops now so my people aren't complaining. When I started my people were unhappy, now they are very happy and I outnumber the other guy. I realise though that most of his are probably deployed ready to attack me again but I'm guessing I now have almost as much as he has to attack. Want to know what I got from him so far. 5 cents. Yep, he damaged my infastructure and stole some land and in return I just got 5c. I'm thinking because I chose agressive attack it killed more of his at the cost of no loot.

edit: I wonder how you could attack. I have another attack (2/day) but can't do it because he is so weak.

Tell me which nation you are so I can remember my allies. Also I guess I should get on with joining the protectorate.

[Randallw]

Just realised



Their forces razed 0.040 miles of your land,





Aide: and here we have a map of the territory we lost sir.
Shows General piece of turf on table.
General:uhum, and what scale is this?
Aide: 1 to 1 sir, see there's a little worm.

[Combat Wombat]

Randall do you need me to send you troops and tanks?

[Randallw]

It might help when he inevitably attacks tomorrow. It doesn't make much sense though. I'm larger, I have more territory and money.

[Combat Wombat]

ill send a tank or 2 your way with some cash, your in the alliance right? Whats your nation called?

Edit: alright well I am going to sleep its 4am lol

[Randallw]

My nation is called Demon Island (because Tasmania used to be called Van Diemans land). I'll try and join.

[Will]

Ah, didn't notice you could do two attacks per day. I did another attack (chose 'planned attack' this time), and lost 6 soldiers, but killed off the rest of his and got... a whole $0.47. Oh well, I think he may want to consider surrendering now, what with zero troops.

--edit: Oh, and I'm Jraenar.

[Randallw]

Well I had -1 troops when I logged in but I was able to buy more troops. If he buys more troops and continues I have the advantage because he has $4 to my $314.

[Randallw]

oh, incidentally I work at a company that makes custom designs on clothing, just if you have an interest in Alliance clothing such as the CN store has. Of course the freight from Tasmania might be a bit much. I did overhear someone at work saying we were sending stuff to UK, and I once handled an order from switzerland or france, I think.

[aegisx]

I tried to send aid too but it won't allow me. Not sure why.

[Baron Munchausen]

Speaking of aid, we newbies would like aid even if we aren't being attacked. Money, at least. It speeds up our own development. Don't necessarily need soldiers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If I know I am about to be attacked then it would be nice to have a tank or two sent my way since it will be a while before I can build them for myself.

[Tnargversion2]

As a member of the Wombat Protectorate I seek the wise wisdom of my fellow alliance members.

Recently a cure for the flu has been found within your nation. There is a limited amount of vaccinations to go around.

Option 1: Deliver the cure to the world health organization. You will lose all vaccinations but will receive worldwide recognition. Population happiness +3

Option 2: Keep the cure secret and only vaccinate your citizens. Citizen count +15%

No Response. Population happiness +1

New Norge

[Santiago]

No Idea atm

[Will]

I would keep it. A 15% population increase is nothing to sneeze at (essentially a 15% income increase, since your taxbase goes up that much). So, unless your population is really unhappy, keep it.

[Randallw]

The red frogs have asked for peace. Would it be good to accept? So far I have only made 5c while losing troops. Could I launch another attack now he has some more troops defending and then agree to peace?

[Combat Wombat]

If you think you can win try to crush him and get something good out of it but don't over extend yourself attacking or you won't be able to defend.

[Will]

I made peace with him. I figure that at this point in the game, the returns from attacking are negligable. It's better to pump as much cash into infrastructure as possible while keeping a decent number of troops home to defend. I was planning on not doing any attacks (except in retaliation) until I am big enough and have enough technology for tanks of my own. Even then, I would only test it out to see what kind of returns I would get.

Besides, it seems he's got a major infusion of aid. He used to be around my strength (a bit under 30), now he's over 360. Best not to mess with that.

[Randallw]

yeah, I noticed how strong he had become. Best to just cut my losses and make peace.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Heya everyone, just thought I'd post in here, since I guess this is the "Wombat Protectorate" forum thingy. I'm Forlorn Hope, ruler of Wilhelmia, and I thought I'd give a yell. I've been waging wars on people I figure I can conquer (why not put those soldiers to good use?) and if anyone has anything to tell me, well, you can do so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Randallw]

I was only just thinking about how anyone can see our forum discussion simply by googling for "wombat protectorate". I had fears of my enemy finding out my plans.

Edit: The one problem with looking at nations in Antarctica and the first place I had this problem, Greenland, is that when you open the map you just get a screenload of white, ok perhaps offwhite. It took me a few minutes to find out why nothing was showing on the map.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Where are everyone's capital's coordinates? I want to put them into my Google Earth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Mine are at: -84.9901001802348, 53.4375, which is about as close to the furthest point from any coast on Antarctica as I could estimate it.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Just as a heads up to everyone, apparently you can only have three wars going at any given moment, even if you have crushed every single one of your opponents and their nations are spiraling ever deeper into anarchy.

[aegisx]

I guess you'll be the wombat enforcer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Just tell me who needs a good smack-down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif (Though if they happen to have lots of land and money, it'd be fantastic >:D)

Imperialism for the win!

[Renegade 13]

54.00776876193478, -124.25537109375 are my locations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Near my home town! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Now, that's useful, but, what's the nation's name too? xD

[capnq]

Fiducia's capital, Lucre, is at -33.72433966174759, -61.171875. I was aiming for Buenos Aires, and got within a couple hundred miles.

If any Team Aqua country that happens to produce Water joins the Wombat Protectorate, I'd be interested in a trade agreement; Fiducia produces Cattle and Wheat. (As I'm posting this, the only current member who sells Water is already getting a better deal than I can offer.)

[Will]

You don't need to trade within the Wombat Protectorate (although it would probably be easier to get an accepted proposal via the alliance). As long as the other player is aqua team, you get the +1 happiness bonus. In the search box at the bottom of each page, select the last option ("Team + Resources") and search for 'aqua water'. It is sorted by the last active time. Just take a look through there to see if anyone does not have your resources yet and has open trade slots (they do if they have less than 10 resources without a harbor, or less than 12 with a harbor). And even then, if you really want to get water for something (maybe the beer bonus resource?) then it might be worth it to forgo the +1 happiness bonus and get the resource anyway. But then again, this is also harder to get accepted.

[capnq]

Oh, I'm already getting Aqua team bonuses on all my trade agreements; I'm just looking to replace my current Water source with one from within our alliance for the sake of loyalty. I need the Water to offset the damage my Coal and Uranium imports are doing to my environment.

Thanks for the tip about the search box, though; I hadn't noticed that. I've been going down the list of alliance members looking at each page to see what they produce.

[EaX]

capnq said:
Fiducia's capital, Lucre, is at -33.72433966174759, -61.171875. I was aiming for Buenos Aires, and got within a couple hundred miles.




http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Oh!!! how do you dare to settle near my home city! i demand you remove all your forces! LOL! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Renegade 13]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Now, that's useful, but, what's the nation's name too? xD

My nations name is Tyyria, capital city is Crater City. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Santiago]

I got this message-

Private Message
To: Santiaggo From: nationpimp 2/21/2007 7:00:55 PM Subject: alliance


The BTA would like to form an alliance between Wombat Protectorate and BTA. If you are interested I need a link to your alliance forums.

I haven't answered it yet- Should this be referred to the Head Wombat?

[Combat Wombat]

Yeah just tell them to talk to me I have no idea why someone would contact you about an alliance level matter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif sorry about that.

[Randallw]

I shall henceforth be adressed as "Glorious Leader"

After the recent war my streets descended into anarchy. Today I finally managed to restore order. Now as we all know the government stat says something like "the people are happy with the government but would prefer..." etc, not important. There seems to be no difference mentioned between government types leading me to wonder if it makes a difference unless you choose the one they want. Well I chose Totalitarian again and now my people adore me.

On a lesser note I tried delaying my tax collecting but only managed to make an extra $22.

[Baron Munchausen]

Yes, there are real differences between the various government types. Look at the wiki for some details.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I would be careful about spies myself. They seem to be pretty prevalent.

Any Aqua with Iron in need of Coal?

[capnq]

Santiago said: a link to your alliance forums

Do we have an "alliance forum" on the Cybernations site? I was looking around yesterday, but all I could find seemed to be a general forum for messages from all alliances.

[Renegade 13]

National religions are stupid. Does it make sense for my people, who are all of Norwegian descent and live in Northern Canada to want their national religion to be Jainism? I think not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Atrocities]

I think I have two trade slots open if any one is interested in Rubber and Sugar.

[Will]

Randallw said:
There seems to be no difference mentioned between government types leading me to wonder if it makes a difference unless you choose the one they want. Well I chose Totalitarian again and now my people adore me.


Government Effects Chart (http://www.cybernations.net/images/governmenteffect.jpg). And it looks like having a government your people do not like is -1 Happiness.


Randallw said:
On a lesser note I tried delaying my tax collecting but only managed to make an extra $22.


That's because the interest is collected on cash you already have. So, if you collect taxes today, then don't spend any of the cash except to pay bills for a few days, then collect taxes again, you'll get 12% of your on-hand cash per day. So, if you have 10k on hand, and your daily bills are 500, and you wait three days between tax collections, you'll get an extra 2,583. Still not too useful.


Atrocities said:
I think I have two trade slots open if any one is interested in Rubber and Sugar.


I could go for that, but I have Fur and Spices, and it looks like you already have Spices... If you're ok with that (at least for now), send an offer to Jraenar, and I'll swap you with my current sugar supplier.

[Randallw]

The wiki entry goes into greater detail, including the effect on environment. As an Australian, where we have a Federal government, I find it amusing that a Federal government is little better than a dictatorship. It'd be more amusing if the communists were in power, although they are at a state level.

[Atrocities]

I have two pending trade offers... if they fall through I would happy to trade with your nation.

[Forlorn_Hope]

I wouldn't even bother with interest. You can probably get more money by investing in infrastructure and getting more taxable citizens, and getting even more money in taxes each day.

[Will]

Yeah, interest is only a nice thing when you're going to be away for a few days anyway. But then you also become a target for attacks, since other people will see inactivity and try to steal stuff from you.

[Combat Wombat]

Alright aparently the max ammount of wars you can be in is 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Will]

Combat Wombat said:
Alright aparently the max ammount of wars you can be in is 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Yeah. And don't bother trying to attack someone who has negative troops (national draft situation). You don't get anything out of it, and just end up destroying infrastructure/tech. Bleh.

[Atrocities]

Well my economy just took a dive for no reason other than I have had my nation for a week now. I like peace but I think it wants me to accept war now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I do that and I will be crushed within a few days.

[Randallw]

My nation just celebrated it's birthday (1 week) and gained +2 happiness. My people seem to adore me even more , showing it by paying more taxes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

There are some rebellious elements however that only saw the birthday celebrations as an opportunity to blow up a building http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif. I have had to send a squad from State Security to hunt them down. This reduced my soldiers below am adequate level, however I could easily afford training another squad to take over thus keeping the average income high. The other option was either to reduce income by upgrading security or do nothing and end up with unhappy subjects.

[Santiago]

I set my options to war is an option the day before my 1 week birthday and it worked out ok

[Combat Wombat]

Atrocities, leave peace mode you won't be destroyed. If someone attacks you, you have the alliance to back you up. You take a 30% hit to productivity in peace mode I believe, its not worth it.

[JeffGeorge]

May my nation of Ferenczia join the Protectorate?

[Combat Wombat]

JeffGeorge said:
May my nation of Ferenczia join the Protectorate?



Yep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JeffGeorge]

Combat Wombat said:

Jeff George said:
May my nation of Ferenczia join the Protectorate?



Yep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Thanks. Done. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help the cause.

[JeffGeorge]

Here's my country. We prefer to be left alone for the most part.

Ferenczia is a small and new nation at 0 days old with citizens primarily of Bulgarian ethnicity who follow no religion. It is a backwards nation when it comes to technology and many refer to it unkindly as a 'Third World Nation'. Its citizens pay moderately high tax rates and they are somewhat unhappy in their work environments as a result. The citizens of Ferenczia work diligently to produce Iron and Gems as tradable resources for their nation. It is an aggressive country that some say has an itch for war. It believes nuclear weapons are necessary for the security of its people. The military of Ferenczia has been positioned at all border crossings and is arresting all drug traffickers. Ferenczia does not allow any form of government protests. Its armed police forces work quickly at "dissolving" any and all government protests. It's borders are closed to all forms of immigration. Ferenczia detains individuals who participated in the slanderous comments about the government. The government of Ferenczia has no compassion for other people of the world and does not contribute to foreign aid. The government of Ferenczia will trade with any other country regardless of ethical consequences.

[JeffGeorge]

My iron and gems are open to trade offers from any alliance members. First come, first served.

[Combat Wombat]

Iron and Gems good resources. All you need to do to help the alliance right now is to build up your nation and trade those resources.

Alliance News:
I am in contact with the Blue Turtle Alliance and are discussing a possible treaty with them. I will post updates about this as it progresses.

Sala-ma-Sond has broken 1000 nation strength. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also I will have at least 1 Aid slot opening soon. This means I can offer aid to someone in the alliance. If you want aid send me a proposal for what you want and why you need it and I will pick the best one. You can send me mails in the game or a PM here on the forums with your application for aid.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Well my economy just took a dive for no reason other than I have had my nation for a week now. I like peace but I think it wants me to accept war now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I do that and I will be crushed within a few days.

You must go to war mode. Don't worry, I've been in "War is an option" mode for about 4 days now, nothing's happened http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Nothing happens in War Mode my arse. Just look at Wilhelmia (my nation) and "Search Wars"!

[Baron Munchausen]

Noticing that many of them have no alliance or team membership I presumed that you picked those fights yourself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Will]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Nothing happens in War Mode my arse. Just look at Wilhelmia (my nation) and "Search Wars"!


Instead, I looked at the nation Wilhelmia and checked out troop losses:

Number of Soldiers Lost in All Wars.
393 Attacking + 0 Defending = 393 Casualties


If you haven't even lost any troops defending, I wouldn't say you've been suffering too many ill effects from war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Shhhhhhh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And I won't mention the $15,000 gained in combat so far, let alone the land... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Well then! You've got to let us in on the M.O. -- How do you choose your victims? How do you go about attacking? (Do you 'deploy' your military first or just declare war?) Obviously you don't attack nations that are stronger, but are there any good methods for deciding who among the weak(er than you) would be a juicy target or is it just pot luck?

[Randallw]

You can follow a link to see what nations are about your level. I believe you can DoW someone between 200% and 50% of your strength.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Alright, alright.

First: I generally make sure the person isn't in an alliance.
Second: I make sure that 2x their infrastructure + their soldiers !> my deployed soldiers
Third: I look for nations that don't look to be spending much money (An alternative option is to look for a nation that just got aid, and doesn't look like they've spent it yet)
Fourth: I kick my DEFCON to 1
Fifth: I attack... AGGRESSIVELY!

[Atrocities]

What is a good defending level for your army? right now I have 118 soldiers with 12.5 infrastructure and 193 citizens.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Wow you guys are way to aggressive for my likes.

[Forlorn_Hope]

@ Atrocities: I prefer to keep ~1/3rd of my army on defense, sometimes as much as 2/3rds if I'm not doing much in the line of war.

@ PES: Don't worry about it. We're just bringing more land, money, and glory into the Wombat Protectorate ;o

[aegisx]

I've got a few hundred troops to spare, just need a target http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

Bwahaha, my first battle!

Battle Type: Aggressive Ground Attack
Battle Outcome: Victory
Tyyria Casualties: 15 soldiers
Wilderian Casualties: 60 soldiers

Battle Details:

Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 1.200 miles of land from Wilderian. They also destroyed 0.640 infrastructure within Wilderian. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $146.63 from the nation of Wilderian.

[Atrocities]

Thanks for the tips. Will deploy for defense

[Will]

Just to clarify, "deploying" troops are NOT defending troops. Deployed troops are those that you have available to attack others. If you don't plan on attacking anyone, just buy troops (keep between 20%-80% at home at all times). Also, I believe you have to deploy troops before you can send them as aid.

[Atrocities]

Eye C that. Thanks Will.

[Baron Munchausen]

I just pummeled a nation called Bondostan who has his own alliance (of which he is the sole member! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ) and sent him into anarchy. Came away with 3 miles of land, and about $1,000 credits.

Now of course we should all be paranoid that someone else will try to do this to us... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Edit:

Hmm, the loss of tax revenue due to population unhappiness is rather large. Apparently you need to have some very good targets to make it worth while to go to war. I'd say my 'experiment' is a break-even rather than a profit.

[Atrocities]

Baron how many troops did you have before you attacked him?

[Forlorn_Hope]

See, I just made off with $50,000 from the two wars I just involved myself in. I just looked for people with a lot more nation stength than their purchases would suggest, checked their aid, and lo and behold, they had gotten tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of dollars in aid.

[Baron Munchausen]

Aha! That's the key. You were examining aid. I didn't do that, I just looked for nations that were somewhat weaker than me and didn't have many troops. This naturally means that they tended to have more infrastructure and land since it takes something to make nation strength... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But I didn't think to check public records of aid.

Now I've got the key. Look for trust fund brats, beat them up and take their candy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The next question is, how hard is it to end a war? They 'expire' after seven days, but if you offer peace do the victims tend to accept or do they try to counter attack? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I haven't seen any reaction in my two test cases yet.

[Baron Munchausen]

I have just run across a 'new' nation that was given $400,000 in cash and 25 levels of technology! This has got to be someone's private piggy bank. I would attack but I am afraid that whoever set it up will not care that this is not in an alliance or team and stomp me for messing with his stash. Not to mention, as a nation with level 25 tech I think its soldiers will be far more effective than mine.

But it is a tempting target. Only 66 soldiers. Hmm, hmm...

[Will]

Hey, for anyone wanting to flex their muscles in the war system, and has a Nation Strength between 138.9 and 555:

One of our own seems to have been attacked. The nation land of conman (http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=89104) has declared war on Tyrria. It would be nice if anyone with open war slots within that strength range could beat up the guy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I would, but I have no slots open, need to wait either for people to come back and declare/accept peace, or until March 3 for the wars to expire.

[aegisx]

Well, we cannot have that. I'll attack.

[aegisx]

"In your victory your forces captured 0.727 miles of land from land of conman. They also destroyed 1.115 infrastructure within land of conman. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $564.17 from the nation of land of conman."

[aegisx]

Ok, I put him down to -1 soldiers. I lost 183 in the process though.

[Baron Munchausen]

The thing to do when you don't have the ability to attack the enemy directly is send aid to the attacked member of the alliance. Since 'conman' has been stomped, I guess we don't need to now. But remember this for next time. It's fairly simple to send military aid to someone else.

[Baron Munchausen]

aegisx said:
"In your victory your forces captured 0.727 miles of land from land of conman. They also destroyed 1.115 infrastructure within land of conman. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $564.17 from the nation of land of conman."



If you really want to 'grind him into the dust' keep attacking. Every day he remains in anarchy he loses more infrastructure, 20 percent or so. Just don't give him a peace treaty for a few days and he'll be set waaay back.

[aegisx]

I don't want to weaken my military too much, so if someone else wants a piece http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

I tend to offer peace to a nation after I've lightened their pockets a bit. After all, I'm aiming for nations with hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting around, so they can build up and counter-attack real fast if they want to. So far, they've been good about accepting peace from me.

[aegisx]

This guy only has ~5 grand

[Combat Wombat]

Alright please make sure you don't mess with people in active alliances because then there will be counter attacks we don't need. Also don't attack someone within team Aqua. Outside of that have fun. Not saying anyone has done either of those things but lets make sure we avoid them.

[aegisx]

I was just defending an ally who was attacked unprovoked (by someone not in any alliance) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[capnq]

The military page says you "may" buy up to 80% of your population in soldiers. I discovered that this does not mean you can't buy more than 80%; you can buy however much you can afford, but if you go over 80% your civilians become less happy. "Help, help! I'm being oppressed!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Will]

If he's down to -1 soldiers, I would say nobody else bother attacking. You won't really get anything out of it, and the game shouldn't even let you attack. So you would just be using up a war slot.

As for sending aid, yeah, I know. But it looked like Tyyria wasn't in any immediate danger, from the nation report it looks like he repelled the attacks. And I was looking more for "beat the insolent attacker into a bloody pulp". And he would have to be logged in to accept the troops anyway. Getting somebody else within strength range to attack seemed the quickest way to retribution.

Aegisx, good job. Mission Accomplished! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[aegisx]

Thanks, I will be brining the troops home tomorrow.

[Baron Munchausen]

Can someome tell me how fast technology cost increases as levels go up? What would you pay for level 20 of technology, for example?

[Renegade 13]

Thanks for jumping to the aid of Tyyria, my nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Turns out he was beaten up badly by my forces, and I ended up making almost $800.00 from the exchange http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


You have been attacked by surviver1994. You lost 25 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 48 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.000 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.00 from you and you gained $769.77 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Victory.



In a test of the war system, I attacked a couple nations that it appeared I had a good chance against yesterday, both resulting in a victory for me. I log on today, and find this message in my inbox:


It has come to my attention that you have attacked a nation of someone under my protection. I would appreciate it if you did not attack that nation again. I would rather not go into a war over this and I would like to work it out. You probably know that I cannot directly attack you, but I do have connections to more nations within your range. I do not want you to see this as a threat but rather as a notice. Thank you for your time.



Of course, I didn't attack anyone within an alliance, so something like this is rather difficult to foresee. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Doesn't really matter though, since I'd offered peace to both nations I'd attacked before this message even came in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Renegade 13]

When is it worthwhile to begin purchasing technology? It's quite expensive, so should I wait until I have built up my infrastructure more, or go for some tech now?

[Atrocities]

How do you get aid? I could use a spare $400k to build up my nation.

[aegisx]

"You have been attacked by surviver1994. You lost 33 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 68 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.000 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.00 from you and you gained $53.82 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Victory."

Then 2 peace offers followed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

He Ren, that message is more than likely from some dude who is playing more than one nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I have seen this kind of cheating across the map over many different games. It is cheating. You should report him and see what happens. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Will]

Renegade 13 said:
When is it worthwhile to begin purchasing technology? It's quite expensive, so should I wait until I have built up my infrastructure more, or go for some tech now?


I'm going to hold off another day on tech. I'm projecting that if I spring for a bit over a half level of tech now, I'll end up with between $300 and $600 less income than if I just invested it all in infrastructure. The extra upkeep from buying more infrastructure does not cover up the savings I would get from buying tech and less infrastructure yet, so I end up with about $150-$450 extra by not getting tech yet. Probably in one or two more days, the situation will change to where I get more income via tech increases than infrastructure increases, then I'll buy some. And then repeat the cycle, because I would again gain more from infrastructure than buying tech.

Basically it's a tradeoff. Tech makes population happier and reduces upkeep, which means higher citizen income (and thus tax income) and lower bills. Infrastructure means more citizens paying taxes.

[Forlorn_Hope]

I'm looking to start boosting up my tech again once I have a population base of 2000. (At 1500 right now) After that, I want to get my Tech up to 20, my Infra up to 200, and then buy a few fighters just in case someone pops over on a bombing run to get me back for some of the... ah... imperialistic tendencies Wilhelmia has ;o

[Baron Munchausen]

Well, 'bondostan' has now counter-attacked and cost me some infrastructure. I guess I am up for some miltary aid after all. If someone will place some troops and especially tanks in my nation to protect it I will be able to better afford another round with this guy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[AgentZero]

The nation of Agentia has offered 46 soldiers to aid in the defense of the nation of Hollin. I would have sent more, but my military is pretty small right now, and that's the most it would let me send.

[Baron Munchausen]

Well, this is the only aid I have been offered. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Since war has turned out to be not profitable for me, I've recalled my troops to defend the homeland. If Bondostan attacks again it will be very expensive for him. (He actually lost the first battle yesterday http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ) Hopefully a few days of routine tax collection will make me strong enough to make another adventure, but this time more carefully considered. I wonder how much time Wilhelmia spent digging through those nation listings to find good victims. The lag is maddening. You can wait 2 or 3 minutes for each page. He must be very determined. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

You know I really wish some game developer (Hint to Shrapnel) would develop a game like this for single and multiplayer. Sure its a lot like CIV, but not identical.

What would be really great is if Shrapnel had the resources to have their own web bases game like this.

[Atrocities]

I was wondering if we could all pull our resources and offer AID to a different player each day? Each put in $500.00 credits to the effort and then give the bank roll for that day to one player, the next day give it to another and so on so that each person gets aid. As we grow stronger, increase the donation amount. Is this sort of thing possible?

[Atrocities]

How do you declare war and raid other nations?

[Forlorn_Hope]

Thing is you can only give / recieve foreign aid 4 times every 10 days. I only have two aid slots left, which is why I didn't send anything to Baron Munchausen yet. So far, it looks like he can do fine.

[Renegade 13]

Baron Munchausen said:
Well, 'bondostan' has now counter-attacked and cost me some infrastructure. I guess I am up for some miltary aid after all. If someone will place some troops and especially tanks in my nation to protect it I will be able to better afford another round with this guy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'll introduce him to my soldiers tomorrow, after I get some sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[aegisx]

If you would post a link to his nation... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JeffGeorge]

I would've sent aid but I guess I got lost trying to read all these messages. I currently have 73 soldiers, the max I am allowed, that are available to the alliance.

[JeffGeorge]

You know I really wish some game developer (Hint to Shrapnel) would develop a game like this for single and multiplayer. Sure its a lot like CIV, but not identical.

What would be really great is if Shrapnel had the resources to have their own web bases game like this.



Check out the games made by Paradox. They're a blast. The big one is called Europa Universalis, but they also have a fun game called Crusader Kings as well as one set in the Victorian age called, appropriately enough, Victoria.

[JeffGeorge]

Temporary Thread Hijack!

I'm going to ask this here since it's short and there are experienced players here. I'm in my first SEIV PBW game and I want to download the proper shipsets, etc. for the players. Can someone point me to the proper place to find a guide that tells me where to put all of the text files, bitmaps, etc.?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled conquests with a Cybernations question.

Should I build up the land I have first, or use my money to acquire additional land?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Here's the deal. I am currently at war with a jerk who attacked me first. I fought him this morning on aggressive tactics and lost 9K worth of equipment. The formula CN uses to resolve battles is seriously screwed up. Now whom ever wants to jump him and get some of the booty my troops left is free to. He is part of an alliance that is twice the WP strength but you have two factors on your side.

1) He isn't active at his alliances forum and they didn't care about him when my alliance posted I was going to ZI him. They hung him out fend for himself.

2) You have me on your side and at a nation strength of 2086.66 I would be number two if I was part of your alliance.

The nation in question is Booop (with 3 o's) run by bob12. He hasn't spent any of the cash yet but I don't know how long it will be before he finds his *cough* present and spends or aids it away. I have attached a jpg of the comparison between his alliance and yours. Look it over and decide on your own what to do. Mr. Wombat you may contact me by PM here or there if you want to open talks to recruit me. I intend to leave my alliance by 15 March. They made some recruitment promises and have not upheld any of them.

PE Shang
Tal-Re Republic

Edited in: I can not attack any other members of his alliance. My hands are tied by the alliance I am with now.

[President_Elect_Shang]

JeffGeorge said:
Should I build up the land I have first, or use my money to acquire additional land?



Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! Only buy land as needed when the warning message appears at the top telling you your nation is to crowded. Infrastructure gives you population and population gives you taxes.

[aegisx]

How were they able to attack you? You should be out of their power range.

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Here's the deal. I am currently at war with a jerk who attacked me first. I fought him this morning on aggressive tactics and lost 9K worth of equipment. The formula CN uses to resolve battles is seriously screwed up. Now whom ever wants to jump him and get some of the booty my troops left is free to. He is part of an alliance that is twice the WP strength but you have two factors on your side.

1) He isn't active at his alliances forum and they didn't care about him when my alliance posted I was going to ZI him. They hung him out fend for himself.

2) You have me on your side and at a nation strength of 2086.66 I would be number two if I was part of your alliance.

The nation in question is Booop (with 3 o's) run by bob12. He hasn't spent any of the cash yet but I don't know how long it will be before he finds his *cough* present and spends or aids it away. I have attached a jpg of the comparison between his alliance and yours. Look it over and decide on your own what to do. Mr. Wombat you may contact me by PM here or there if you want to open talks to recruit me. I intend to leave my alliance by 15 March. They made some recruitment promises and have not upheld any of them.

PE Shang
Tal-Re Republic

Edited in: I can not attack any other members of his alliance. My hands are tied by the alliance I am with now.



This post has me seriously confused. Is PE Shang not part of the Wombat Protectorate? I don't think my 73 soldiers can be much of an offensive force at this time.

[President_Elect_Shang]

They attacked me on the morning of day 3 when I was at 50 strength. Later that day I got my PayPal gift package and two aid packages from my alliance which I used to boost my strength to the present.

CN Tip: If you go to your View My Nation screen, right click, hit Select All it will allow you to read all the hidden text including your happiness rating and environment rating.

[President_Elect_Shang]

No I am not part of the WP and I have reduced Booop from 200 something soldiers to 13. A small force of rabid turtles could kick his keester.

[aegisx]

I sent some threating notes to the guys attacking Hollin and Tyrina (sp?). If they don't declare peace and if you guys want Ill send in the troops tomorrow.

[President_Elect_Shang]

What is your nation?

[aegisx]

Aegis Republic

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:

CN Tip: If you go to your View My Nation screen, right click, hit Select All it will allow you to read all the hidden text including your happiness rating and environment rating.



I don't understand this. What hidden text?

[Forlorn_Hope]

The guy is WAY below my strength range http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

There is hidden text on the view my nation screen, such as the actual number value of your population happiness. Scroll down till you can see you population happiness. If you hover your mouse it will give you text like they adore you or whatever. If you then right click --> Select All it will highlight everything on the page you will be able to see the numeric value. Try it you will see what I am talking about.

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:
There is hidden text on the view my nation screen, such as the actual number value of your population happiness. Scroll down till you can see you population happiness. If you hover your mouse it will give you text like they adore you or whatever. If you then right click --> Select All it will highlight everything on the page you will be able to see the numeric value. Try it you will see what I am talking about.



Got it! I see what you're saying now. Very cool!

[President_Elect_Shang]

I posted the tip before I had scanned the whole page to see what is actually revealed. The only thing I see is the values for pop and environment. Do you see anything else?

[capnq]

JeffGeorge said:Temporary Thread Hijack! [...] I'm going to ask this here since it's short and there are experienced players here. I'm in my first SEIV PBW game and I want to download the proper shipsets, etc. for the players. Can someone point me to the proper place to find a guide that tells me where to put all of the text files, bitmaps, etc.?

Everything goes in the folder Pictures\Races\race_name . Many shipsets are zipped with the correct path already set. Any .emp files go in the Empires folder, and there may be a .txt file of design names that goes in Dsgnname . That's all there is to it.

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:
I posted the tip before I had scanned the whole page to see what is actually revealed. The only thing I see is the values for pop and environment. Do you see anything else?



No, it looks like that's it. Too bad. I would have liked to have seen some more hidden data!

[JeffGeorge]

capnq said:

JeffGeorge said:Temporary Thread Hijack! [...] I'm going to ask this here since it's short and there are experienced players here. I'm in my first SEIV PBW game and I want to download the proper shipsets, etc. for the players. Can someone point me to the proper place to find a guide that tells me where to put all of the text files, bitmaps, etc.?

Everything goes in the folder Pictures\Races\race_name . Many shipsets are zipped with the correct path already set. Any .emp files go in the Empires folder, and there may be a .txt file of design names that goes in Dsgnname . That's all there is to it.



Thanks. That makes it easy.

[capnq]

President_Elect_Shang said: If you then right click --> Select All it will highlight everything on the page you will be able to see the numeric value.

Ctrl-A does the same, or you can just drag the pointer across the invisible text to highlight it once you know it's there.

I know that for happiness, higher is better. (Fiducia was at 15.10 last I looked.) Which way is better for environment? I get the impression that the number is actually a pollution rating, with higher numbers being worse, but I'm not sure. (Fiducia started at 5.00 and moved to 6.00; I assume that was caused by my importing Coal and Uranium.)

[President_Elect_Shang]

I don't know about the environment but for happiness higher is better. I knew about the Ctrl-A and drag to highlight but the select all is much easier for me.

[Renegade 13]

For environment, higher is better for number of stars, but lower is better for the actual hidden number.

[Baron Munchausen]

Atrocities said:
How do you declare war and raid other nations?



When looking at another nation's info, you'll see a menu at the top listing options, like 'send a message' and 'declare war'. Once you click the 'declare war' link you can choose how to proceed. Make sure you've got some reserves before you actually go to war, though. As with the real thing, results are unpredictable.

[Baron Munchausen]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Thing is you can only give / recieve foreign aid 4 times every 10 days. I only have two aid slots left, which is why I didn't send anything to Baron Munchausen yet. So far, it looks like he can do fine.



Yeah, I got a nice gift from CW anyway. 2 levels of technology! This boosted me out of strength range to fight with Bondostan, but I don't mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So unless I've been attacked by someone much stronger since last night, I should be ok.

[Baron Munchausen]

aegisx said:
How were they able to attack you? You should be out of their power range.



Nation strength can change. Drastically. I've just boosted beyond the range of the guy that I first attacked. I don't know what is going to happen to the war now. It has several days to go before it expires. PES probably had the same thing happen, or he beat his opponent up so thoroughly that he dropped out of strength range for war.

[Baron Munchausen]

President_Elect_Shang said:

JeffGeorge said:
Should I build up the land I have first, or use my money to acquire additional land?



Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! Only buy land as needed when the warning message appears at the top telling you your nation is to crowded. Infrastructure gives you population and population gives you taxes.



This is correct with one qualification. High population density affects your environment adversely, which reduces your population. Buy infrastructure first, but try not to let your infrastructure exceed twice your total land ('area of influence') or you aren't getting as much population as you could for your infrastructure.

[Baron Munchausen]

aegisx said:
I sent some threating notes to the guys attacking Hollin and Tyrina (sp?). If they don't declare peace and if you guys want Ill send in the troops tomorrow.



Wow, he's a nasty little dufus. I thought I had grown beyond his attack range, but logging in I see he's attacked me again. But then someone else attacked me first. Apparently he's got 'friends' even if he's not in a formal alliance.

[Baron Munchausen]

Ok, I've 'offered peace' to both Bondostan and his ally (?) Ritter. We'll see how they respond. This is annoying. I could be over 300 in nation strength by now.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Let's say you I are both strength 50 and I attack you. Now tomorrow I buy up to boost my strength to 500 and you are still at 50. I can continue to attack you as long as the war has not expired.

[Baron Munchausen]

It was a pretty even match, but the constant attrition was adding up.

To: Celebrimbor From: gamergeek007 2/25/2007 5:55:58 PM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by gamergeek007. You lost 54 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 32 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.560 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 2.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.00 from you and you gained $100.60 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Victory.

---

To: Celebrimbor From: gamergeek007 2/25/2007 5:56:50 PM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by gamergeek007. You lost 90 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 23 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.537 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 1.920 infrastructure. Their forces looted $27.84 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.

---

To: Celebrimbor From: Ritter 2/26/2007 2:42:16 AM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by Ritter. You lost 118 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 111 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.000 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.00 from you and you gained $17.05 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Victory.

---

To: Celebrimbor From: Ritter 2/26/2007 2:43:14 AM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by Ritter. You lost 53 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 15 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.556 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 2.203 infrastructure. Their forces looted $21.75 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.

---

To: Celebrimbor From: gamergeek007 2/26/2007 11:10:30 AM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by gamergeek007. You lost 44 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 56 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.000 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $0.00 from you and you gained $163.87 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Victory.

---

To: Celebrimbor From: gamergeek007 2/26/2007 11:11:23 AM Subject: Battle Report

You have been attacked by gamergeek007. You lost 24 soldiers and 0 tanks. You killed 18 soldiers and 0 tanks. Their forces razed 0.000 miles of your land, stole 0.000 technology, and destroyed 0.000 infrastructure. Their forces looted $34.29 from you and you gained $0.00 in your enemy's abandoned equipment. In the end the battle was a Defeat.

Well, at least they have both accepted the peace offers.

Total costs of retaliation:

*383* soldiers = $2144 at Defon 1 prices.
(More at Defcon 4 prices, of course)

*1.653* miles of land = $565 at my current price for land

*6.123* infrastructure = $4389 at current price (ouch, that one hurts!)

And that doesn't take into account the lost tax revenue from the damage.

So how did Wilhelmia find such nice juicy victims?

[aegisx]

Looks like you guys made peace Baron..

[President_Elect_Shang]

A gift from me to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

You don't have uranium on that list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

That's not my list so I can't take credit for it. It was just a gift from me. The problem with Uranium is that it's not good till later when your empire is up there. Which is also why it's missing from the list. This list is for starting nations.

[Renegade 13]

Ahh, gotcha. So this chart basically shows the best "starting" resources, and shows how they combine to form the extra, bonus resources. Hmmm, I think I can clean that up a little bit, make it a little prettier... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Remember to add in the uranium. Do you need a link to the official Wiki page for the resources et el?

[Renegade 13]

Hmmm, it's proven to be slightly more complicated than I thought. I'll put something up tomorrow, after I get some sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Will]

Well, making a similar graph while adding in uranium is an interesting problem. If you're looking to make it "pretty", that could be very difficult. We're pretty much talking about arranging twenty one nodes containing ten cycles such that there is minimal intersection between the cycles. I can't think of a proof off the top of my head, but that sounds NP-Hard. And doing exponential complexity number crunching on a 21-node graph ain't a cakewalk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

I have 26 soldiers I can offer as aid.

[Randallw]

What's the procedure to get gifted technology?

[capnq]

Fiducia is trying to send a peacekeeping force to assist Narquilocles, but I'm having trouble sending aid. My Nation says Fiducia has deployed troops, but the Aid page says we have 0 soldiers available. What am I doing wrong?

Searching the FAQ seems to say that you have to have a nation strength of 1000+ to send aid. Is that true?

Also, can anyone tell me why I sometimes am asked to log in again when I click a link? I've had to log in as many as three times in a single session.

[aegisx]

I have sent 150 soldiers as aid to Narquilocles.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Deploying troops allows you to use them in combat against another nation, it does not send them to another person. You need to go to the nation screen for the nation you want to gift to. Once there you can click on aid and it will allow you to enter values for funds, troops, tech, infra, and I think that's it(?).

[Will]

It seems my earlier statement about only being able to send deployed troops as aid is incorrect. Which doesn't make much sense to me, but oh well.

I know the limitations on sending tech are 1/3rd of your levels over 5. Looking at the aid I can currently send, troops you can send seems to be just a little over the number of troops you have above 20% of your citizens (e.g. if you have 100 citizens, and 30 troops, you can send about 10). Cash I am assuming you can only send when you don't have the "low on funds, did you collect taxes?" warning.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Just to let you know, the way I find my victims is looking for people with far more strength than their infrastructure would suggest, and I also look through the aid that's being given around. For example, I saw one guy offering a friend 3,000,000 in aid, was still pending though. So I invaded, and walked off with $300,000. However, I AM worried about some serious retribution. But we'll see.

[President_Elect_Shang]

That's what happened with me and Booop. When we went to his alliance and showed them we where x8 their strength they quickly agreed to let him hang on his own. Speaking of which I quit them today. They are so arrogant it's not even funny. They seriously should not be admitting new members and I told them as much; but certainly not as nicely, when I walked off.

[Atrocities]

Forlorn_Hope how did you build up so fast?

I have 200 troops, about 12.0 in infrastructure. Am I a prime target for rape warfare?

[President_Elect_Shang]

@At: Not really unless you start to get in lots of aid packages.

So I wanted to ask here how many of you wold be turned on to the idea of creating a new alliance dedicated to peace and cooperation? There are two catches though. First I have to wait and see if these self-absorbed fools in the alliance I just left plan to destroy me for leaving. If they do I will let this nation delete out and start a new one. Second part of the idea is that this new alliance and the WP work together for the greater good, bod, or ugly; an MDP. I'm just asking to ask at this point. If it sounds like an acceptable idea and I don't get creamed then we can talk about it more.

[aegisx]

If they destroy you, send some aid this way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Peace is good, but war is needed sometimes. I also don't mind having some more war focused people in the alliance. It is kinda like a stock portfolio, diversify http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif So I don't know about being totally peace focused. The WP seems to be more like a cooperative alliance, which works for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Well, I'm not a huge fan of a peace-oriented alliance. I think I've been in 10 different wars over the past 12 days :x (I've won all of them too ;O)

And Atrocities: I built up so fast by Cattle Raiding.

[JeffGeorge]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Well, I'm not a huge fan of a peace-oriented alliance. I think I've been in 10 different wars over the past 12 days :x (I've won all of them too ;O)

And Atrocities: I built up so fast by Cattle Raiding.



Ah, just like in King of Dragon Pass!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Here is another tip; hit that donate button in the upper right corner and drop a little cash. For $20 I got 30 tech, 200 infra, and 400k in funds.

@aegisx: I wouldn't be that cruel to you. They will be checking my aid slots to make sure I don't do just that. Now I was fighting Booop who was part of the GDI right? The GDI is x2 the strength of the WP and the alliance I was in was on the scale of x8 the GDI's power. As for the alliance idea I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not talking about making one alliance out of the WP. At this point I'm not even saying lets make an alliance. I was only trying to take an informal survey of what others think. The new alliance would go to war but only to defend a member nation or to back up the WP. Other than that we could funnel cash to the WP and let you war mongers beat the crap out of others for fun. Maybe along the way you will feel it in your hearts to smash a few heads of potential threats to this new peace alliance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif That's all I'm saying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif That's also why I mentioned a MDP; Mutual Defense Pact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Also go here (http://www.lunarwars.net/news.php) and join up. It is like CN but just started so everything is fresh. I am a member of The Paladins so team up with us till you feel like you want to head off.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Two more things: (1) Assuming I'm not smeared does anyone object to me joining the WP? I asked a few posts back for CW to contact me but haven't heard from him. Which nation is he anyway? (2) Do you guys have a forum or is this the place you hang out? You should really try to make a forum. FH what nation are you?

Ok so that's more like 4 things but hay; I can't count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[aegisx]

I don't think anyone would mine and your looking at the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

Could you offer some advise on cattle raiding? How to determine good targets, what troop strength you need to attack, best strategies, and so on?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Start by looking for guys with low strength but aid packets. Sort by last activity date, salt, pepper, and cook for 30 minutes at 400 degrees.

[President_Elect_Shang]

aegisx said:
I don't think anyone would mine and your looking at the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



But they can't stop me from doing that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:

Also go here (http://www.lunarwars.net/news.php) and join up. It is like CN but just started so everything is fresh. I am a member of The Paladins so team up with us till you feel like you want to head off.



How do you join an alliance? I want to get my colony of New Sanctuary, founded by Edward Wrathchild, into an alliance.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Check your PM's over there and you will see my message with a walk through.

[JeffGeorge]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Check your PM's over there and you will see my message with a walk through.



Cool. I'll check it now. Or maybe I should get some work done. Nah, who am I kidding?

So in addition to Cybernations and Lunar War, I just submitted my first ever PBW turn. The world will never again be the same.

[Forlorn_Hope]

Eh, I dunno if I'm gonna do the cyber colony thing. I like doing it with Cyber Nations, but space was never my thing. I play as Wilhelmia on Cyber Nations, and I mainly look for people sending or receiving foreign aid who aren't in alliances. Then I just hit them with enough to win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JeffGeorge]

Forlorn_Hope said:
Eh, I dunno if I'm gonna do the cyber colony thing. I like doing it with Cyber Nations, but space was never my thing.



Anyone else see the irony of this on a Space Empires forum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Some recent recipients of foreign aid who don't belong to alliances:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Name: Nation Strength: Aid:
Troezen 32.841 $20,000 (pending!)
german red cross 89.963 $32,593 (today!)
Furland 12.222 $30,000 (pending!)
*** a good newbie victim. :)
Clash n Slash 69.075 $100,000 (PENDING!!!)
*** Watch this guy, you wannabe cattle raiders! :)
Nadsat 454.729 $170,000 (today!)
LTs Floating Kingdom 1,240.773 $50,000 (today)
$49,328 (2 days ago)
*** A possible Wilhelmia victim? :)
</pre><hr />

[President_Elect_Shang]

I'm glad soemone pointed that out.

Hay we need more members before this thing gets to large and the CN monopolies take over here too. The Paladines (notice he spelled it es) is the group you want to join. He doesn't have the leadership experience so it would be simple to grab control. I don't want to it's just not my style; however, I am the largest colony in this small alliance and will back any coupe launched by my fellow SE brothers.

[Renegade 13]

Battle Type: Aggressive Ground Attack
Battle Outcome: Victory
Tyyria Casualties: 11 soldiers
Inkxh Casualties: 42 soldiers

Battle Details: Your soldiers were triumphant and decisively defeated your enemy in this battle. Your soldiers owe their lives to your hard work as their leader. In your victory your forces captured 1.460 miles of land from Inkxh. They also destroyed 1.520 infrastructure within Inkxh. There was no technology stolen in this battle. The value of your equipment abandoned in the battle was $0.00. Your forces looted $2,354.17 from the nation of Inkxh.



Money money money! Finally found a rich target http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forlorn_Hope]

Hrmmm, the person I nabbed about $300,000 from apparently decided to get active about it xD In fact, now he seriously outguns me. I offered him peace (he insisted I pay him back his money, at which I rofled, as it was all spent), and we'll see how it goes. But I still figure on thoroughly crushing him. Will just be a little harder than I thought.

As a side note, I did decide to make one of those Lunar nations things... but... I'm not so enthusiastic about it as this xD

[aegisx]

Need any troops? Nevermind, you guys are out of my league http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Beck]

Well, I've been following this for the last week or so and have been reading a bit on CN's website, so I'm going to give a try even though I usually have problems with things like this that require hands on attention everyday.

Ruler: Count Rupert
Nation: DuchyofGrandFenwick

Resources: Coal, Rubber (if anyone is interested)

I assume it'll be okay to join the WP?

[Forlorn_Hope]

You assume correctly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Just as an update for everyone: I'm currently in a very heavy-duty war. The person I pulled a cattle raid on earlier has decided he will attempt to crush me. As things stand at this moment, he launched two air strikes and two cruise missle attacks on Wilhelmia, taking out almost 30 infrastructure, and two tanks. The nation of Wilhelmia has responded with two airstrikes of it's own, removing a total of 8 tanks, however, as Wilhelmia lacks ICBMs, no missle strike was launched. An invasion is planned for 0100 EST, taking on 114 tanks, and 1852 infantry. He still has 10 aircraft backing him up, however, and those aircraft raids do sting quite a bit. Regardless, Wilhelmia aims to crush this nuissance.

[Combat Wombat]

Jesus! Forlorn I was about to help you with that guy but hes even stronger than me, what did you get yourself into.

[Atrocities]

How many troops are you using in your typical attacks?

[Forlorn_Hope]

Usually about 20 or 30% more than they have total. And CW: He wasn't THIS strong earlier, he spent some of his money and built himself up. But, not to worry, I still think I can take him down myself.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Use around 80% of their strength. Who is that in the number one power slot of the WP?

[Baron Munchausen]

Combat Wombat said:
Jesus! Forlorn I was about to help you with that guy but hes even stronger than me, what did you get yourself into.



Yeah, he's 1,741 and Wilhelmia is only 1,372. We may need to send aid to Wilhelmia soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Maybe you feel brave enough to tackle 'Mighty Sweden' which was just given 1,200,000 in aid today? This nation is close to your strength, but Wilhelmia is otherwise occupied today.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif so it seems you would be the only remaining candidate in the right strength range to raid this one. If you aren't scared away by the possible consequences. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif