Adamant Mod Discussion Thread [Archive]

Fyron

March 14th, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by mlmbd:
Fyron, are all SEIV ships of the line replaced by the Bio-ships? Or are the Bio-ships added to the regular SEIV ships. Do they had some special ability. Like Bio sensors or bio weapons. Or do they use standard SEIV weapons, etc.? Maybe these are all really dumb questions.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif You pick one of three basic options when setting up your empire: Physical Race, Organic Race, or Magical Race. Each of these options has Versions of just about everything in the game, including ship sizes. A Physical Race gets the normal ships. An Organic Race gets the Bioships. But, the referenced file names for the different classes of ships should be the same. Both the Destroyer and the BioDestroyer use the Destroyer picture. If there are any discrepencies, it would be an error, and in need of fixing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The Magic races are going to get different ship hulls and such than what they have now, but they will use the same file naming scheme.

Dogscoff:
I suppose I could have it place them in the default game folder. The only reason I included my Dsgnname folder was to add much more variety to the game. Same as with the EmpireNames files and such. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know there are dsgnname files I don't have, but I do have most of the ones that have been released. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

March 14th, 2003, 10:14 PM

I just had a great idea:
I will add some "mercenary" ship classes that no race has pics for. They will all look like default pics. This will allow you to build and sell mercenary ships that will not be traceable back to you by their pictures. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And, maybe they can have some special properties too.

mlmbd

March 15th, 2003, 07:31 PM

Fyron, being associated with a empire who were merk's, I think that is a great idea. It would seem to give your mod great latitude. You don't even need an entire shipset of images. They also proably shouldn't match, each other! Just afew to start with Then add to the shipset, as the need or want accures! Really is a great idea! If you want any help with the merk shipset, just let me know! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In fact I think I will start a Merk Shipset! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Fyron

March 15th, 2003, 11:30 PM

Yes, help with the ship set would be greatly appreciated. I am not an artist. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

March 16th, 2003, 11:59 AM

Version 0.03.00 of the Adamant Mod has been released. The biggest change in this Version is that all research centers now produce 200 fewer research points. This will prolong the time it takes to research all technologies, thereby increasing the length of the tech tree.

Also, there are now some AI files, but they are not modded very extensively yet. They will not cause the AIs to generate errors when trying to research technologies. All AIs have the same research file right now.

mlmbd

March 16th, 2003, 06:07 PM

Fyron, I have started 7 different shipsets, well 8 counting the Merk's shipset(more if you count the 3 organic/bio shipsets I am doing for other people). These 7 shipsets are Magic or D&D type races. Don't know how long they will take. I will start with the Merk's shipset. Since it can be a mixture of ship styles, colors and textures.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Fyron

March 17th, 2003, 06:15 AM

Cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dogscoff

March 18th, 2003, 02:54 AM

Fyron: I've been through your vehiclesize.txt and updated the html for the neo-standard site. I'll upload it somewhen this week.

I kept an eye out for any misnamed ships as you requested and didn't find any. However I did notice that you are calling for an "infantry" image - neostandard sets name it "troopinfantry".

mottlee

March 23rd, 2003, 06:37 PM

I_F Is this mod a "Human" player only? I have D/Led it and running now yet the IA is not working they are stuck and not building a thing and no points to do so now, I am still running it to work the tech out and see what is there, there are some COOL facility pics too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Atrocities

March 23rd, 2003, 07:34 PM

Just a qustion. I noticed that there was no race folder in the Pictures folder. Do I need to put all of the races into a race folder in the pictures folder? (Meaning do I have to create a race folder within the pictures folder and move the races that are no just under the pictures folder to the new race folder?)

Fyron

March 23rd, 2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I kept an eye out for any misnamed ships as you requested and didn't find any. However I did notice that you are calling for an "infantry" image - neostandard sets name it "troopinfantry".Thats the type of error I was talking about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Although, "troopinfantry" does seem a bit redundant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by mottlee:
I_F Is this mod a "Human" player only? The mod is still in alpha Version. There is no AI support at present.

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Just a qustion. I noticed that there was no race folder in the Pictures folder. Do I need to put all of the races into a race folder in the pictures folder?I had started some preliminary work on making the stock AIs compatible with the mod. But, I ran out of server space, so I could not include the Races folder. It would not have made much of a difference yet though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Making a Races folder in the mod would not accomplish anything but reduce the number of ship sets available.

mottlee

March 24th, 2003, 01:36 AM

Thanks, It would make a good one for human players no AI, the tech tree is different http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
All in All a #1 mod looks good

Do you have plans for AI?

[ March 23, 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: mottlee ]

Fyron

March 24th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Do you have plans for AI?Yeah, but not quite yet. I need to get the mod more complete first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Version 0.03.01 of the Adamant Mod has been released. Many new Intel Projects have been added. Many magic ship sizes have been renamed. A new mount system is in place. I am probably forgetting any other changes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 24, 2003, 00:15: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

mottlee

March 24th, 2003, 08:17 PM

Is it ready to D/L? and you could use it as a PBW type W/O AI

Fyron

March 24th, 2003, 09:46 PM

Yes, it can be used as PBW without AI. Such a game would give useful feedback. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You won't have much in the way of modded weapons yet though, as I haven't done much with weapons.

I had a thought:
What if I did this: make engines 5 kT, and remove their supply capacity. Replace Supply Bays with various types of "reactors" that store the supplies the engines used to store (also 5 kT components). Then, you have a choice between faster ships, and longer ranged ships (much more so than in the current system).

spoon

March 24th, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

I had a thought:
What if I did this: make engines 5 kT, and remove their supply capacity. Replace Supply Bays with various types of "reactors" that store the supplies the engines used to store (also 5 kT components). Then, you have a choice between faster ships, and longer ranged ships (much more so than in the current system).That's what I've done in my mod. The good thing is what you describe -- more variation of ship design. The bad thing is, when your ship-design circuits are running on autopilot, you often forget to put any supply components on your ships. I'm considering giving all the hull types a built in supply storage of like 250, so when this does happen, you won't get quite as screwed.

Fyron

March 30th, 2003, 10:49 PM

Version 0.04.00 of the Adamant Mod has been released. Shields are now leaky. Only physcial race shields have been made leaky so far because balance needs to be found. Neutronium Armor now comes in 1 kT chunks instead of 5 kT.

Suggestions on balance issues with the new leaky shields are welcome.

mottlee

March 31st, 2003, 12:18 AM

I have been running the first release, found some of the research goes no where (unless I set up wrong, there are lots of "New" tech) I have not been able to research more eng. start with med tech and the "magic" tech
cool Mod tho keep it up

Fyron

March 31st, 2003, 12:20 AM

At this point, most of the theoretical techs have 5 levels, but only the first few levels actually do anything. When I get to the weapons, this will change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 30, 2003, 22:24: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

mottlee

April 1st, 2003, 02:16 AM

OK I'll be cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif I think I can wait a week http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (just kiddin')

Fyron

April 10th, 2003, 10:04 AM

I have a request for anyone that has a few minutes to spare. Please download the Adamant Mod (from the site linked in my sig) and look at the racial traits and charactertics (specifically the characteristics). I want to get them balanced. I have made lots of changes (mostly based off of ideas proposed by Spoon, PvK and others in the racial traits threads a few months back), and I would like other opinions on them. There is a data file only Version of the mod available for download, which is about 1/3 the size.

If you want to look at other parts of the mod too, I won't stop you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Just keep in mind that magic and organic shield comps and the megafluxers have not been converted to leaky shields yet, so please don't tell me they are unbalanced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The physical shields are in need of balance suggestions though.

[ April 10, 2003, 09:06: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

April 12th, 2003, 02:57 AM

Nobody wants to take like 5-10 minutes to take a look?

Krsqk

April 12th, 2003, 03:21 AM

Fine, fine, you've nagged me enough. I'm going to your site right now to download it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Krsqk

April 12th, 2003, 03:43 AM

Just a few questions/comments from looking at your site (haven't gotten around to d/ling yet):

1) You added the Boarding Defense ability to Boarding Parties. Does this add to the attack amount for defense, or does it replace it? (In standard SE4, the attack amount is the defense amount for BPs).

2) I'm assuming that Combat Sensors, Temporal CSs, and Psychic CSs all are the same family number? That could lead to some major abuse, given how you've changed sensor/ECM values.

3) It looks like you've switched the descriptions of Security Stations and Keepers of the Faith.

4) I see you've included Hyperdrives with the Extra Movement ability, although you've limited them by minimum ship size. Are you doing that via mount, and is it worth considering just making them scalable over the entire spectrum of ship sizes (again with mounts)?

5) Have you not gotten around to adding the cloaking components yet? I see tons of sensors, but nothing to compete. Also, the Cloaking tech area says it only cloaks EM Passive. Does that mean that only Psionic races, for example, can use or detect Psychic cloak?

6) Which armors have the Armor ability? The Adamantium, Neutronium, and Xentronium? Should the Xentronium also require Advanced Armor tech, since it seems to be a variation of the Neutronium armor?

7) In the Automation tech area, "miniaturization" is misspelled.

Looking forward to seeing what some of the unfilled tech areas give.

Okay, I'll stop picking and start d/ling now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

April 12th, 2003, 04:06 AM

Fine, fine, you've nagged me enough. I'm going to your site right now to download it. I knew youd cave sooner or later! Muahahahahha! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif j/k

1) You added the Boarding Defense ability to Boarding Parties. Does this add to the attack amount for defense, or does it replace it? (In standard SE4, the attack amount is the defense amount for BPs).They add together. There are Mental Shredder and Neural Toxin weapons that target anything with Security Station type, so crew quarters, boarding parties, etc. have the Boarding Defense ability added to them, so they can be targeted. There are Hunter-Killer Drones that only have boarding attack, so they are unaffected by such weapons. Idea shamelessly borrowed from P&N. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

2) I'm assuming that Combat Sensors, Temporal CSs, and Psychic CSs all are the same family number? That could lead to some major abuse, given how you've changed sensor/ECM values.I think they are the same family. If they are, then they won't stack. If they aren't, I will have to make them the same family. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

3) It looks like you've switched the descriptions of Security Stations and Keepers of the Faith.Well that was stupid. It will be fixed shortly!

4) I see you've included Hyperdrives with the Extra Movement ability, although you've limited them by minimum ship size. Are you doing that via mount, and is it worth considering just making them scalable over the entire spectrum of ship sizes (again with mounts)?No actual restrictions are on them. The description simply includes the hull size where they will be less effective than Spatial Compressors (although that might need adjusting now with the changes to engines in the recent Versions of the mod (half size, supply storage moved to separate components)).

5) Have you not gotten around to adding the cloaking components yet? I see tons of sensors, but nothing to compete. Also, the Cloaking tech area says it only cloaks EM Passive. Does that mean that only Psionic races, for example, can use or detect Psychic cloak?Actually, the components page is nowhere near finished. I need to finish it at some point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Master Computers give Psychic Cloaking. I am not sure if I will have a scanner for non-Psionics that can do Psychic scans or not at this point. That is one area that still needs fleshing-out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

6) Which armors have the Armor ability? The Adamantium, Neutronium, and Xentronium? Should the Xentronium also require Advanced Armor tech, since it seems to be a variation of the Neutronium armor?The Xentronium Armor technology requires these techs:
Xenoarchaeology 8
Xentronium 1 (a unique Ruins tech)
Physics 3
Advanced Armor 4

So, you have to have Neutronium Armor available before you can research any Xentronium Armor.

7) In the Automation tech area, "miniaturization" is misspelled.Umm... umm... its a feature! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Fixed now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mlmbd

April 12th, 2003, 03:12 PM

I just started play testing. I will get back to you. Of course not with 'errors'. Just to check in! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 13th, 2003, 02:56 AM

Version 0.04.03 of the Adamant Mod has been released. Engines have been separeted into 2 component Groups, engines that make movement and reactors that store supplies. Magic races now have engines. Small engines removed, and fighter engine mounts reinstated. Other various changes made.

Krsqk

April 13th, 2003, 05:09 AM

Quit posting updates right after I download the Last Version, will you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I haven't even gotten a chance to look at the Last one!

Fyron

April 13th, 2003, 05:17 AM

So don't look at it, and look at the new one! Each update is relatively minor anyways. It's not like a make tons of major changes with each Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

April 13th, 2003, 07:40 AM

but if he looks at the new one, it'll be the Last one!

Fyron

April 13th, 2003, 08:02 AM

There will never be a Last one, cause I am never gonna get this thing finished! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mlmbd

April 13th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Do you want me to continue with the previous Version play test, and start the new one? Or just the new Version?

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 13th, 2003, 09:14 PM

I would suggest just the new one, cause some things might be irrelevant from testing the old one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mlmbd

April 15th, 2003, 01:44 AM

OK! The new Version it is!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

mlmbd

April 16th, 2003, 05:44 PM

Fyron, I will have a sampling of ships for your mod sometime over the weekend! 8 different sets. Just in case you thought I forgot! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 16th, 2003, 07:56 PM

Wow... 8 different sets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif And here I thought Atrocities was the ship-set machine, when it was you all along! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hmm... maybe you both are... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Fyron

April 17th, 2003, 07:20 PM

Yeah, it should install over it with no problems. They all point to the same folders.

The mod has basic AI support in that the AI research files are modded to not give any errors when loading the game. The AIs can function, though just barely. They all use Physical race though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif More AI support is going to wait until I get the weapons modded.

mottlee

April 17th, 2003, 08:05 PM

Cool running a "Magic" one now and there are dead ends Soooo I'll wait longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mlmbd

April 17th, 2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Wow... 8 different sets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif And here I thought Atrocities was the ship-set machine, when it was you all along! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hmm... maybe you both are... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Oh no! You had it right. I am not even in the same league as Atrocities. I wish! Anyway, I did say sampling, from 8 sets. None of the 8 are finished. Not even the Merks. But I thought you might like a look at some images. Most will fit into the Windjammer theme you posted from another thread. Magic, but not exclusive to a Magic Race. Elves, Gnomes, Dragon Fly and and nice mix of others. If I do say so myself! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And I do!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 17th, 2003, 08:18 PM

Elves and Gnomes would be a magic race... not sure about dragonflies though, I'd have to see them first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mottlee

April 18th, 2003, 01:11 AM

Will the new one install over the old without problems?

(edit)AI in it?

[ April 17, 2003, 12:11: Message edited by: mottlee ]

narf poit chez BOOM

April 18th, 2003, 04:21 AM

i see dragonflies all the time:)

Fyron

April 18th, 2003, 08:18 AM

Version 0.05.00 of the Adamant Mod has been released. Advanced Storage Techniques has been replaced with Subterranean Race. A new racial tech trait called Advanced Storage Techniques added, which increases the storage of all cargo holding components and facilities by 25%. Added Organic and Magic Versions of unit launchers and more units.

Fyron

April 18th, 2003, 07:56 PM

Oh... ok. As I said, I would have needed to see them first to know what you were talking about... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mlmbd

April 19th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Elves and Gnomes would be a magic race... not sure about dragonflies though, I'd have to see them first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Dragonflies are from Spelljammer. Human race. They could be organic/magic/physical.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

mlmbd

April 19th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Oh... ok. As I said, I would have needed to see them first to know what you were talking about... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Oh you will! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

mlmbd

April 21st, 2003, 10:35 AM

Here you go. See what you think of these ships!

Adamant Ships (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1050913719.zip)

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 21st, 2003, 07:15 PM

You sure like those dreadnoughts, don't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

They could use some better textures. But otherwise, looking good! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mlmbd

April 22nd, 2003, 02:55 PM

Needed to start somewhere. Dreadnaughts seemed like a good place.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 02:14 AM

Version 0.06.00 of the Adamant Mod has been released. The leaky Physical Race armors have been made into a tech grid. The other race's armors will follow later.

tesco samoa

April 23rd, 2003, 06:09 PM

Sub Race...

Hey I have the same thing...

D'oh

Actually all the stuff is taken from Moo2 , IG 2 , Stars and Mac's suggestions....

Fyron I really like the unique resource gathers.... That is a great idea....

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 07:55 PM

"Fyron I really like the unique resource gathers.... "

Eh?

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 09:03 PM

I had an idea: what if Tachyon-esque scanners could only be placed on satellites? And possibly bases, but not sure of that one. That would force you to deploy scanners in new systems instead of just fly in a scanning ship.

Fyron

April 24th, 2003, 02:21 AM

Version 0.07.00 of Adamant Mod has been released. Colony Tech mod ideas from Ekolis have been added to the mod. Now, you must select the appropriate racial trait based off of your homeworld type. Taking an extra is considered cheating.

tesco samoa

April 30th, 2003, 06:12 PM

how you have personalized the resource gathering facilities based on what your advanced traits are very cool

I was wondering if this might be a cool idea for your mod...

Based on the Evolutionary Development...

Organic Fighter Bays, and Fighters,
And Organic Drone Launchers and Organic Drones

You could do the same with the Paradigm ( Good speakers ) and the other areas....

Would be cool...

But just an idea.

And this thread fell to the second page..

Fyron

April 30th, 2003, 08:44 PM

There are already Organic fighters and fighter bays (and Magic ones too). Organic drones and such will follow later when I work on the mod again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

May 1st, 2003, 08:14 PM

Version 0.08.00 of Adamant Mod has been released. Added mounts for other vehicle types. Increased cost of Resupply Depot to 18000/9000/9000, and then added 10 levels available with Industry with decreasing costs. Changed names of various facilities.

Fyron

May 3rd, 2003, 06:32 AM

Version 0.09.00 of Adamant Mod has been released. Created Projectile Weapons technology field. There are 10 different weapons, each with a 2 dimensional tech grid of 10 levels each dimension. ~5 MB comps file! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Fyron

May 4th, 2003, 01:05 AM

If anyone wants to test out the new Projectile Weapons (not in comparison to other weapons, but compared to the armor, shields, etc. and to each other), that would be most appreciated.

mottlee

May 4th, 2003, 01:34 AM

gee I just D/L .008 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

May 5th, 2003, 09:16 PM

That's why I have the data only zip file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

May 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Fryon, fantastic work.

I like your Vehicle and Component Progressions� And I am learning from them.

Actually I/we like everything.

Storm n Pat (my son) and I are going to start another multiplayer LAN game with this Mod in a few weeks. He has been taunting me now since you Posted v.08 for a LAN game.

EDIT: Actually I just stood corrected, "v.07"

[ May 05, 2003, 23:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Strom n Pat

May 6th, 2003, 12:01 AM

I think my Dads mod is good.

Yours is much more fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 05, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Strom n Pat ]

Fyron

May 6th, 2003, 12:19 AM

LOL! Great, now we have familial rivalry going on... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Don't expect too much from the AIs. I'm not very knowledgable about AI modding at this point, and I have not done much work on them. They all use the default files for each race, except I modded the default AI research file so it would stop spitting errors at me (several Versions ago, so its out of date now) and put it in all the race folders, and I modded Psychic to be Psionic in the General AI files to remove some other error Messages. I think I added Physical Race to all general AI files too. If perchance you wanted to do a little AI modding, I would not object... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Also... the Projectile Weapons are not meant to be balanced with the normal weapons, so that could cause balance issues in your LAN game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 05, 2003, 23:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

May 6th, 2003, 12:22 AM

I thought you would never ask http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Absolutely, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pat can follow up on my spelling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

May 6th, 2003, 12:23 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif You posted while I was editing my post. So... make sure to read it again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I never asked before because I was not sure if I was going to keep the basics as they are now, or change them. A few minor changes to engines drastically obseletes all AI design files and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 05, 2003, 23:24: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

May 6th, 2003, 12:31 AM

I am looking forward to it, just say when http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I REALLY like where you are going with Adamant.

[ May 05, 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

May 6th, 2003, 12:34 AM

When. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Take the base AI files from unmodded 1.84 and work from their. I am not entirely sure what is in the mod... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Or maybe I should get permission to start off with TDM AIs... hmm...

If you have suggestions on how much to make the Religious and Psionic subtraits cost, they would be appreciated. I have them all set to 500 points right now, but they are not all worth the same.

[ May 05, 2003, 23:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

May 6th, 2003, 01:03 AM

You Got it, I will get started before Wednesday.

[ May 06, 2003, 00:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

May 7th, 2003, 01:23 AM

To all of the graphically-inclined... I am looking for someone that would be interested in making an intro screen for Adamant mod.

JLS

May 7th, 2003, 03:05 PM

Fryon, would something like the one used in AIC be what you had in mind, however it is not that fancy. If so, please let me know what wording and type set you would like and I will be more then happy to make it happen, for you.

[ May 07, 2003, 14:11: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

May 7th, 2003, 07:40 PM

Thanks, but Hugh already volunteered. And, I was thinking of something more graphical (which is why I'm not up to making it myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Fyron

May 7th, 2003, 08:35 PM

Version 0.10.00 of Adamant Mod has been released. Added History.txt and Readme.txt. Added Zero Gravity Engineers racial trait, which makes ship and base Space Yards 30% more productive. Base Space Yards are now 50% more productive than Ship Space Yards. Fixed Growth Chambers and Summoning Circles techs to have had 5 max levels, not 3. Fixed costs of Growth Chambers and Summoning Circles.

Ed Kolis

May 9th, 2003, 03:05 AM

Say, how about if Magic races got Kobold Warheads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 9th, 2003, 07:38 PM

You really like those Kobold warheads, don't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ed Kolis

May 9th, 2003, 11:30 PM

Too bad you can't create warheads with boarding party or crew conVersion type damage... or can you? Just imagine an explosive warhead which propels hundreds of rabid half-starved Kobolds into an enemy ship, ready to tear apart the enemy crew and take charge of the ship!

god and I've never even played Dungeon Keeper and I come up with these evil schemes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Lord Kodos

May 10th, 2003, 12:00 AM

Dungeon Keeper...I love that game, still have it both part one and two. They where working on a part III but when Peter left Bullfrog to make Lionhead I think the project was abandoned...

Fyron

May 10th, 2003, 12:41 AM

Version 0.11.00 of Adamant Mod has been released.

1. Added - Chameleon Armor and Active Chameleon Armor, which are the Organic equivalents of Stealth Armor and Stealth Shields.
2. Fixed - Tech reqs of Stealth Armor and Stealth Shielding.
3. Added - Darklight Armor and Illusiary Armor, which are Magic equivalents of Stealth Armor and Stealth Shields.
4. Changed - Mines no longer have built in cloaking abilities.
5. Added - Cloaking devices for mines.
6. Fixed - Family numbers of mine warheads used to all be 2026, which caused them all to be obselete.
7. Added - Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles, which are essentially tiny drones with no strategic movement.
8. Added - Computer cores for organic and magic satellites.
9. Fixed - Tech reqs of several Magical engine and armor types.
10. Fixed - Set start level of Gauss Gun Engineering back to 0.
11. Added - Taera, Puntherraian, and Zanar'ri races to the mod.
12. Added - Drone engine mount that makes engines cost 50% less.
13. Added - Reinforced weapon mounts for ships that give weapons 50% more hitpoints.
14. Changed - Reorganized TechArea.txt
15. Added - Organic long range scanners.

[ May 10, 2003, 08:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

May 10th, 2003, 06:55 AM

Sneak peak at what's coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Version 0.11.01:
1. Changed - Physical ships now increase by 70 kT per level, get -5% to defense and have 12% maintenance penalties. Magic ships increase by 50 kT per level and have minor speed bonuses. Organic ships increase by 40 kT per level, get +5% to defense and have 8% maintenance bonus.
2. Changed - Ships from Crusier size and larger get increasing 4% maintenance penalties per level.
3. Changed - Increased size of Physical bases.
4. Changed - Colony ships are now 3300 kT, and Colony Modules are now 3000 kT.
5. Changed - Physical LS and CQ are now 15 kT. Organic LS and CQ are 8 kT. Command and control comps take a base of about 22.5% space on Physical ships, 20% space on Magic ships and 19% space on Organic ships (based off of Corvette class ships).
6. Changed - Ship Construction now has a base research cost of 14000, compared to 10000 for Organic Ship Growth. Spelljammer Construction now has a base research cost of 11000.
7. Changed - Renamed some Magic ships.

[ May 10, 2003, 06:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

May 10th, 2003, 09:29 AM

Version 0.11.01 of Adamant Mod has been released.

1. Changed - Physical ships now increase by 70 kT per level, get -5% to defense and have 12% maintenance penalties. Magic ships increase by 50 kT per level and have minor speed bonuses. Organic ships increase by 40 kT per level, get +5% to defense and have 8% maintenance bonus.
2. Changed - Ships from Crusier size and larger get increasing 4% maintenance penalties per level.
3. Changed - Increased size of Physical bases.
4. Changed - Colony ships are now 3300 kT, and Colony Modules are now 3000 kT.
5. Changed - Physical LS and CQ are now 15 kT. Organic LS and CQ are 8 kT. Command and control comps take a base of about 22.5% space on Physical ships, 20% space on Magic ships and 19% space on Organic ships (based off of Corvette class ships).
6. Changed - Ship Construction now has a base research cost of 14000, compared to 10000 for Organic Ship Growth. Spelljammer Construction now has a base research cost of 11000.
7. Changed - Renamed some Magic ships.
8. Fixed - AI research files no longer generate errors about colony techs and such.
9. Fixed - All AIs will now have a racial colony type trait.

Fyron

May 10th, 2003, 10:41 PM

The change to ship sizes is a massive change, and feedback on it is necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 11th, 2003, 12:38 AM

A new page detailing the Magic view on the nature of the universe has been uploaded to the Adamant mod web site (in the Outline section).

StarBaseSweeper

May 13th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Imperator Fyron, I check your website and your mod, but I am not sure to understand the following:
- You describe the leaky shiel as "taking half of the damage, instead of all or 0". But to my understanding your shield still take 100% of the damage, until depleted. What am I misunderstanding?
EDIT: I describe more in "emissive shield" thread.
- About leaky armor, are you sure that the small armor has a lower chance to be hit? I agree that each individual small armor has a smaller chance to be hit than a bigger one, but if you put 10 small armor (size=1kt) there is the same change than an armor will be hit as if you put 1 big armor (size=10kt), isn't it? The only difference is the total cost and the total structure, and the easiness to repair (the smaller number the better). From what you say it seems to be better to have many small armor for higher structure.

Sorry if I just misunderstand things.

Also about colonization tech, why don't you use restricted trait for ICe/Rock/Gaz colonixation, the same way you use it for race type?

Hope it helps.

[ May 13, 2003, 07:29: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 08:30 AM

- You describe the leaky shiel as "taking half of the damage, instead of all or 0". But to my understanding your shield still take 100% of the damage, until depleted. What am I misunderstanding?The difference is that standard shields absorb all damage until they are depleted, and then no longer provide protection. Leaky shields continually provide protection because some points are added to the shields every time the ship is damaged (as the shields use the Crystalline Armor ability).

- About leaky armor, are you sure that the small armor has a lower chance to be hit? I agree that each individual small armor has a smaller chance to be hit than a bigger one, but if you put 10 small armor (size=1kt) there is the same change than an armor will be hit as if you put 1 big armor (size=10kt), isn't it? The only difference is the total cost and the total structure, and the easiness to repair (the smaller number the better). From what you say it seems to be better to have many small armor for higher structure.Which component is hit is based off of the hit points of the component, not its size. Heavy armors are likely to be hit first becuase they have a huge number of hit poitns. Using just light armor, there is a much greater chance that internals will be hit because each light armor component has fewer hit points, and so is less likely to be selected to be hit.

Also about colonization tech, why don't you use restricted trait for ICe/Rock/Gaz colonixation, the same way you use it for race type?I copied the colony traits from EKolis' Colony Tech Mod, which did not use them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 13th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />- You describe the leaky shiel as "taking half of the damage, instead of all or 0". But to my understanding your shield still take 100% of the damage, until depleted. What am I misunderstanding?The difference is that standard shields absorb all damage until they are depleted, and then no longer provide protection. Leaky shields continually provide protection because some points are added to the shields every time the ship is damaged (as the shields use the Crystalline Armor ability).<hr /></blockquote>I understand now, thank you for the explanation. I was surprise to know any damaged component would create shield when hit.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />- About leaky armor, are you sure that the small armor has a lower chance to be hit? I agree that each individual small armor has a smaller chance to be hit than a bigger one, but if you put 10 small armor (size=1kt) there is the same change than an armor will be hit as if you put 1 big armor (size=10kt), isn't it? The only difference is the total cost and the total structure, and the easiness to repair (the smaller number the better). From what you say it seems to be better to have many small armor for higher structure.Which component is hit is based off of the hit points of the component, not its size. Heavy armors are likely to be hit first becuase they have a huge number of hit poitns. Using just light armor, there is a much greater chance that internals will be hit because each light armor component has fewer hit points, and so is less likely to be selected to be hit.).<hr /></blockquote>Still, then the probability for teh armor to be hit depends on the ratio struture/size.
Small armor: size,struct = 1kt,2kt
Big armor: size,struct = 10kt,7kt

Then for a size of 10kt you can have:
10 small => struct of armor=10*2=20
1 big => struct of armor=1*7=7
So the small armore have 3 time more chances to be hit that if using big armor.

Am I still wrong?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Also about colonization tech, why don't you use restricted trait for ICe/Rock/Gaz colonixation, the same way you use it for race type?I copied the colony traits from EKolis' Colony Tech Mod, which did not use them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Still, then the probability for teh armor to be hit depends on the ratio struture/size.
Small armor: size,struct = 1kt,2kt
Big armor: size,struct = 10kt,7kt

Then for a size of 10kt you can have:
10 small => struct of armor=10*2=20
1 big => struct of armor=1*7=7
So the small armore have 3 time more chances to be hit that if using big armor.

Am I still wrong?
Your numbers are wrong. Actually, those armors would almost never be hit before other components because they have fewer hit points than nearly all non-armor components (as most have 10 or more hit points). You'll have to get the actual calculations from SJ though, as he is the one that came up with the leaky armor system. All I know is that it works. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Go try it out in the combat simulator.

[ May 13, 2003, 09:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

StarBaseSweeper

May 13th, 2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Your numbers are wrong. Actually, those armors would almost never be hit before other components because they have fewer hit points than nearly all non-armor components (as most have 10 or more hit points). You'll have to get the actual calculations from SJ though, as he is the one that came up with the leaky armor system. All I know is that it works. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Go try it out in the combat simulator.Ok, I guess depends on umbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If it works...I just gonna try it then

Wonder if SJ has time to answer newbees http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 10:41 AM

You won't find a guy more willing to spend his time answering newbies than SJ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It is possible that I do not have the numbers exactly right to create the optimal effect I was planning on, but it is certainly close.

StarBaseSweeper

May 13th, 2003, 11:17 AM

I remember reading SJ first Posts about P&N, full of ideas.

When I see what it became... quite impressive.

I was wondering, would, by any magic, the emissive ability have the same property as Create damage from shield, meaning that if an internal component would have emissive value, then the whole ship would have?

Krsqk

May 13th, 2003, 03:40 PM

Components with Armor ability: Smallest structure values tend to be hit first.
Components without Armor ability (leaky armor): Larger structure values tend to be hit first.

These don't seem to be influenced too much by numbers of components. In P&N, for instance, a space yard (~200 structure) will still most often be hit first, even if the ship has 10 Buckytube Gel comps (~30 structure).

Suicide Junkie

May 13th, 2003, 04:59 PM

I don't have exact statistics available, but when you compare a small number of large-hitpoint components and a large number of small-hitpoint components, with the same total hitpoints, the larger-hitpoint components get hit more often than randomly by component, and even more often than the 50% by hitpoints.

The example I used for testing was the B5 light, medium and heavy "Inert Armor".
I don't recall exactly what they were, but take it as:
10 hp/1 kt for light armor
50 hp/10 kt for heavy armor

I designed identical ships, except for armor...
6 guns, and 6 engines from standard SE4, minimum requirements for equipment.
The light armor ship ended up with 6K hitpoints, while the Heavy armor ship ended up with 4K hitpoints.

Guess who wins? 60-70% of the time, it was the heavy armor ship. Even though it had fewer armor components and only 2/3rds the number of hitpoints, it usually won the battles.

Tactical combat, and watching each hit showed that the heavy ship would win because its heavier armor got hit more often, and less damage leaked through to destroy weapons.
The light armored ship would lose firepower, and become unable to fight back.

On the occasions of the light armor ship winning, the heavy ship would suffer bad luck on its own shots; failing to damage enough weapons on the light ship. Trading blow for blow, the 4k heavy armor hitpoints simply ran out first.

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 06:45 PM

The abilities that various armor types have are not directly tied to the armor ability. Emissive ability works on all armor components when it is on a component that has armor, and it works on all components when it is on a component without the armor ability (just like shields from damage).

tesco samoa

May 13th, 2003, 06:59 PM

Fryon.... can you mod restrictions or are they hardcoded ?????

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 07:02 PM

No you can't mod the restrictions (assuming I understood you correctly).

Suicide Junkie

May 13th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Some restrictions, such as the "one spaceyard per vehicle" are hardcoded.

On individual components, you are free to change the restrictions.
The ones I know are available now:
- None
- One Per Vehicle
- Two Per Vehicle
...
- Ten Per Vehicle

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 07:19 PM

I think he meant, "can you mod what the restrictions are?", which you can't do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 13th, 2003, 08:06 PM

I'm thinking of getting rid of the tech grid idea and going with open-ended tech levels instead. Projectile Weapons alone has 21 tech areas and 10 x 10 x 10 components (well, actually, more like 5 times that amount)! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I could then easily add a few areas like "miniaturization" and "ship hardening" or whatever, and not worry about conflicts. And, less math involved! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thoughts/opinions?

Phoenix-D

May 13th, 2003, 11:30 PM

As long as you don't go insane with them, tech grids are fine.

Missiles might work well with that- one tech area for the launcher/projectile, another for the warhead.

Fyron

May 14th, 2003, 06:14 AM

Yes, well, not going insane with things isn't gonna happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 14th, 2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The abilities that various armor types have are not directly tied to the armor ability. Emissive ability works on all armor components when it is on a component that has armor, and it works on all components when it is on a component without the armor ability (just like shields from damage).Incredible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
very interesting, I was thinking wrong all along.

Would that happen also for Regenerate Armor?
Like if Regenerate armor put on armor component, regenerate all armor component with regenerate armor ability (even if 0), and if put on a non-armor component, regenerate all component with regenerate armor ability (evebn non armor) ?

Fyron

May 14th, 2003, 08:31 AM

Regeneration doesn't care whether it is armor or not. I think a comp might need a regen ability of one to be able to regenerate though, but I am not sure. You could always test it in a jiffy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 14th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Thanks for all your clarification, I'm gonna heavy test now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

But I got many new concept.

Maybe I can go something original/different that make everything worth it.

Fyron

May 14th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Sneak peak to wet your appetites:

Version 0.11.03 - :
1. Added - Fate Talismans, which are 50 kT components that give +5-20 ECM bonus and require Fate Ethos 3-6.
2. Added - Organic and Magic SDDs.
3. Added - Pandoran, 8472, NuWam races to the mod.
4. Changed - Attempted to make AIs be able to design and use Colony Ships.
5. Added - Space monsters, from Devnull Mod, with Rollo's permission.
6. Added - Endemic Wastefulness, Naturalists, Unlucky, Trans-dimensional racial traits.
7. Added - Basic Bridges, Basic Life Support. Added Spartan and Luxurious Crew Quarters.

Fyron

May 14th, 2003, 09:43 PM

8. Added - Mecenary Contracts technology for use with mercenary ships. Used a recolored Version of Terran ship set found on PBW as a temporary mercenary set.

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 06:14 AM

Ok, it's out!

Version 0.11.03:
1. Added - Fate Talismans, which are 50 kT components that give +5-20 ECM bonus and require Fate Ethos 3-6.
2. Added - Organic and Magic SDDs.
3. Added - Pandoran, 8472, NuWam races to the mod.
4. Changed - Attempted to make AIs be able to design and use Colony Ships.
5. Added - Space monsters, from Devnull Mod, with Rollo's permission.
6. Added - Endemic Wastefulness, Naturalists, Unlucky, Trans-dimensional racial traits.
7. Added - Basic Bridges, Basic Life Support. Added Spartan and Luxurious Crew Quarters.
8. Added - Mecenary Contracts technology for use with mercenary ships. Used a recolored Version of Terran ship set found on PBW as a temporary mercenary set.
9. Added - Stoic Race racial trait, which allows crews to live in Spartan Crew Quarters without any combat penalties.
10. Added - Dozens of Expansion Slots to Racialtraits.txt for ease of empire file updating in the future.
11. Added - Neo-Expansion pack.

StarBaseSweeper

May 15th, 2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I don't have exact statistics available, but when you compare a small number of large-hitpoint components and a large number of small-hitpoint components, with the same total hitpoints, the larger-hitpoint components get hit more often than randomly by component, and even more often than the 50% by hitpoints.

The example I used for testing was the B5 light, medium and heavy "Inert Armor".
I don't recall exactly what they were, but take it as:
10 hp/1 kt for light armor
50 hp/10 kt for heavy armor

I designed identical ships, except for armor...
6 guns, and 6 engines from standard SE4, minimum requirements for equipment.
The light armor ship ended up with 6K hitpoints, while the Heavy armor ship ended up with 4K hitpoints.

Guess who wins? 60-70% of the time, it was the heavy armor ship. Even though it had fewer armor components and only 2/3rds the number of hitpoints, it usually won the battles.

Tactical combat, and watching each hit showed that the heavy ship would win because its heavier armor got hit more often, and less damage leaked through to destroy weapons.
The light armored ship would lose firepower, and become unable to fight back.

On the occasions of the light armor ship winning, the heavy ship would suffer bad luck on its own shots; failing to damage enough weapons on the light ship. Trading blow for blow, the 4k heavy armor hitpoints simply ran out first.Maybe I got it.
Do you think it could be for the following reason.
2 ships:
Ship A: 150kt total struct, including 10*5kt "armor" (not defined as armor, just as decoy).
Ship B: 150kt total struct, including 1*50kt "armor" (decoy as well, no armor ability).

On the first hit, let's say 5Kt damage, we have for each ship:
Ship A: each "armor" has 5/150 chance to be hit. As there is 10 such components, the chance that armor is hit is 10*5/150=1/3. If the armor is hit, then it loose one armor (9 armor left).
Ship B: 1 armor, has probability to be hit 50/150=1/3. It will loose 5kt struct, but then it will draw fire until destroyed!

Second shot: let's say the first shot damaged armor. 5kt damage for second shoot.
Ship A: each armor has 5/150 chance to be hit. 9 armor left, so 9*5/150 chance to be hit. If hit, one armor destroyed (8left). We can see the probability of armor being hit is decreasing. Moreover, it will redo the random targeting everytime an armor is destroyed, making it more likely to hit other components.

Ship B: 5kt to armor. No other componant can be hit as armor is already damaged.

Would that be the explanation for the test you did?

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 08:17 AM

Just so you know, if the damage to the ship is not enough to destroy the randomly targetted component, then that damage is stored up and added to the next shot's damage, which is randomly assigned to a component. There is no partial damage for components.

Phoenix-D

May 15th, 2003, 08:36 AM

And the damage is sometimes lost completely, if shields regenerate (crystal armor, shield regenerators)- if the next shot doesn't penetrate the shields, the partial damage is IIRC lost. Either that or it goes into the shields.

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 08:38 AM

I believe it goes to the shields. It is converted to the damage type of whatever the next weapon is. So if the next shot is from a Tachyon Projection Cannon, it does all the damage to weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

May 15th, 2003, 09:20 AM

another trick for micromanagers. is all the hassle worth it?

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 09:23 AM

Huh? It has nothing to do with micromanagement, just a note on how the damage model works.

narf poit chez BOOM

May 15th, 2003, 09:46 AM

well, you could have major damage stored from a big weapon and put it all in weapon damage. i'm not sure how, but someone might figure it out.

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 09:52 AM

That only works if all components have more hit points than your weapons do damage (a lot more). Otherwise, it is such a rare occurance that it does not matter.

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 10:05 AM

I have noticed that noone has as yet said anything bad about my mod or anything in it. Is it because everything I have done is perfect and there are no problems (esp. balance issues and such; is that comp way too powerful?) at all? I doubt it! I am sure there are some dumb things I have done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Point them out! Don't worry: egos are fictictious, so there is no possibility of crushing mine (or inflating it either).

Ruatha

May 15th, 2003, 10:07 AM

About the Adamant mod:
I haven't tried it but I like the name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 15th, 2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I have noticed that noone has as yet said anything bad about my mod or anything in it. Is it because everything I have done is perfect and there are no problems (esp. balance issues and such; is that comp way too powerful?) at all? I doubt it! I am sure there are some dumb things I have done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Point them out! Don't worry: egos are fictictious, so there is no possibility of crushing mine (or inflating it either).To say something good:
I like the idea of leaky armor. I may one day ask you for permission of using the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

To say something bad:
It seems from the file that there isn't such big difference between the 3 races. I means that you could imagine that the organic would not have big ships, only fighters and carrier. Or thing like this to make them really very different. Currently it seems you can "basically" do the same with all of them, just the name change and the caracteristic are a bit different, but no really big change (to take bad example, like in starcraft, when the 3 races seem a bit similar to your idea but are very different in strategy).

But of course as I currently cannot play, my opinion is not worth much...

I will trty as soon as I can play again...

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 11:18 AM

Ah, finally a real response! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

My goal was to work up a basis for each race, and then differentiate them from there. Weaponry is going to be one area where they are quite different, though I have not gotten around to it yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

A lot of things have to be looking like just duplicates of each other because that is necessary for the basics. How many ways can you make a ship bridge, after all?

Have you looked at the latest Versions? The races now have vastly differing ship sizes, so that is going to make a difference right there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ruatha

May 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

A lot of things have to be looking like just duplicates of each other because that is necessary for the basics. How many ways can you make a ship bridge, after all?
Not very many, you can call them different things though.
A "Central Nest" for some kind of insectous creatures.
And perhaps some race wouldn't need a bridge, only "crew quarters" and "life support", a telepatic race that can oerate it's machinery from anywhere on the ship.
A race that doesn't need life support, I mean thake the Thermolians, they are dead, isn't life support wasted on them?

Small creatures could have many small bridges and crew quarters.
Making it easy to take out some but then some might survive, is it possible to make a ship have half movement points if half the bridge components are taken out?

(Not directly Adamant oriented but some ideas perhaps..)

[ May 15, 2003, 14:26: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 08:31 PM

You can only ever have 1 bridge on a ship. You can have as many "auxiliary control" components as you want though. You can not mod the effects of losing C&C components; they are hard-coded.

I have indeed given them very different names. But the complaint was that they still accomplish the same things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

How about sensors? ECM? There is really only one way to implement them. Sure, I could give the different kinds different rates, but they still boil down to the same thing with different names.

Fyron

May 15th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Mephisto has given the go-ahead on using the TDM AIs as the base for the AI in the mod. So JLS, go ahead and start from the TDM AIs instead of the unmodded AIs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Suicide Junkie

May 15th, 2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by StarBaseSweeper:
Maybe I got it.
Do you think it could be for the following reason.
2 ships:
Ship A: 150kt total struct, including 10*5kt "armor" (not defined as armor, just as decoy).
Ship B: 150kt total struct, including 1*50kt "armor" (decoy as well, no armor ability).

On the first hit, let's say 5Kt damage, we have for each ship:
Ship A: each "armor" has 5/150 chance to be hit. As there is 10 such components, the chance that armor is hit is 10*5/150=1/3. If the armor is hit, then it loose one armor (9 armor left).
Ship B: 1 armor, has probability to be hit 50/150=1/3. It will loose 5kt struct, but then it will draw fire until destroyed!

Second shot: let's say the first shot damaged armor. 5kt damage for second shoot.
Ship A: each armor has 5/150 chance to be hit. 9 armor left, so 9*5/150 chance to be hit. If hit, one armor destroyed (8left). We can see the probability of armor being hit is decreasing. Moreover, it will redo the random targeting everytime an armor is destroyed, making it more likely to hit other components.

Ship B: 5kt to armor. No other componant can be hit as armor is already damaged.

Would that be the explanation for the test you did?No, as I tried to note, the light-armored ship had 50% more hitpoints on its armor (6k vs 4k)
If the hits were chosen as you said, then the light-armored ship should have had a tougher armor, and have lost weapons slower than the heavy armored ship.

Rather, in this case, the ship with much FEWER armor hitpoints, but larger hitpoints per armor component had its armor hit MORE often.

Ed Kolis

May 16th, 2003, 03:52 AM

Wasn't that Fyron's intent - the heavier armor provides fewer hitpoints of protection but still manages to absorb a higher percentage of hits? It does say so right in the component description http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 16th, 2003, 05:52 AM

Yes it was. SJ was supporting my components against the concerns raised that they might not work as intended. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 16th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Ok I re-did calculation.
There is however two different hypothesis:
H1: When a 5kt damage hit a component but is not enough to destroy it, the 5kt damage will be added to the next shoot, whose target will be randomly chosen (not necessarly the same one).

H2: When a 5kt damage hit a component but is not enough to destroy it, the 5kt will be added to the next shoot, which will target the same component, if it is targettable (no X Only weapon).

For me H1 is wrong because it makes the armor used in adamant mod useless:
(for 1 armor of 30kt)
Hit 1 5kt, hit armor.
Hit 2 5kt+5kt=10kt, hit armor.
Hit 3 5kt+10kt=15kt, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 10kt left, hit armor.
Hit 4 5kt+10kt=15kt, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 10kt left, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 5kt left, hit armor.
Hit 5 5kt+5kt=10kt ....

With H2, we have:
Hit 1 5kt, hit component, 1 5kt component destroy
Hit 2 5kt, hit armor.
Hit 3 5kt+5kt, still armor.
Hit 4 5kt+10kt, still armor.
Hit 5 5kt+15kt, still armor.
Hit 6 5kt+20kt, still armor.
Hit 7 5kt+25kt, destroy armor.

Anyway using both hypothesis, with teh following configuration ships:
Components: 10 5kt components.
Ship A: 10 5kt armor. (total 50kt=> 50% of ship)
Ship B: 1 30kt armor. (total 30kt=> 37% of ship)

Shoot of 5kt.
For 4 shoots, the leaking damage is:
Ship A: 10kt (on total of 20kt damage)
Ship B, H1: 14.8kt
Ship B, H2: 6.6kt

So given the result of SJ test, I would favor H2 as being true.

Of course this for only 4 shoots (but the calculation is very complicated for Ship B,H1 because of reported damage and new targets)

Any confirmation for the hypothesis?

Fyron

May 16th, 2003, 08:32 AM

H1: When a 5kt damage hit a component but is not enough to destroy it, the 5kt damage will be added to the next shoot, whose target will be randomly chosen (not necessarly the same one).
This is a well tested theory, and I believe has been confirmed by MM at some point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, it in no way makes the armor used in adamant useless. There are very few weapons that do tiny amounts of damage.

[ May 16, 2003, 07:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

StarBaseSweeper

May 16th, 2003, 09:13 AM

Sorry, I don't mean the armor is useless, but I cannot understand why having a 30kt armor would be more efficient than having 10 5kt armor if this is true.

But I guess I will have to use the really number from your mod, won't I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But do we agree on that:
The probability for a component to be hit is:
< struct of the component > / < total remaining struct of ship >
Anytime there is unused damage point, either because it is remaing damage after destroyinga component, or because it targeted too strong a component, is added to the next shoot.
The targeted component of a shoot is totally independent of the previous shoots (except that destroyed components are not targetted anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Did I understand right?

[ May 16, 2003, 08:20: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Krsqk

May 16th, 2003, 03:35 PM

AFAIK, hypothesis H2 is true. That is, if a component is damaged but not destroyed, the next shot will also hit that component unless it is of a special damage type which prevents that (i.e., Only Engines, Only Planet Destroyers, etc).

For instance, if I shoot a a ship with DUC V's (40 ADU) and hit a colony comp (200kt structure), no damage will be seen until the fifth shot, when enough damage has accumulated to destroy the comp. However, if I replace the Last DUC V with an Ionic Disperser V (also 40 damage, but Only Engines damage type), all 200 damage will be pulled out of the colony comp and be applied to the engines.

At least, that's how it worked before. Did it change somewhere?

StarBaseSweeper

May 17th, 2003, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
AFAIK, hypothesis H2 is true. That is, if a component is damaged but not destroyed, the next shot will also hit that component unless it is of a special damage type which prevents that (i.e., Only Engines, Only Planet Destroyers, etc).

For instance, if I shoot a a ship with DUC V's (40 ADU) and hit a colony comp (200kt structure), no damage will be seen until the fifth shot, when enough damage has accumulated to destroy the comp. However, if I replace the Last DUC V with an Ionic Disperser V (also 40 damage, but Only Engines damage type), all 200 damage will be pulled out of the colony comp and be applied to the engines.

At least, that's how it worked before. Did it change somewhere?That's what I think too.
I think that's why Adamant heavy armor is so much more efficient than the small armor, making the system of leaking armor very ingenious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

That's why I like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 17th, 2003, 05:04 AM

Well again, thank SJ for leaky armor, not me. He is the one that came up with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif At least, I think he is the one that came up with it... he made the leaky armor in B5 mod a long time ago... and has had that bucky gel tube plating stuff in P&N for a long long time...

StarBaseSweeper

May 17th, 2003, 08:09 AM

Focusing more about Adament mod, maybe some ideas (that you maybe either already have, or have better...):

It is possible to make each race different.
For example, for the magic race, you could imagine that they do not have AI, so no master computer available. On the other side, all the crew is magic user, so all component consirered as filled with people would generate/regenerate shield. As well, the bridge, crew quarter, living querater, and several type of weapons may have boarding defense abilities, very high as all are training magicians, and all generate shields.

On the other side for Organic, all component would be regenerable, and maybe have boarding party ability. You could sacrifice engines, weapons to board, as every part is living, it can be use for attack. Not sure this is possible though.
Maybe the organic would have absolutly no shield, they may have non-leaking armor?

Just some ideas, if it helps.

Atrocities

May 17th, 2003, 08:12 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053151861.BMP

Concept Ship

StarBaseSweeper

May 17th, 2003, 08:51 AM

Would not it be better with green Hull?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif *start to laught crazily*

It really look like mana generating craft.

Phoenix-D

May 17th, 2003, 07:24 PM

Ed: if by that you mean "looks really good", sure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ed Kolis

May 18th, 2003, 01:10 AM

Is it just me or does every shipset Atrocities makes now look like his 8472 set? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

May 18th, 2003, 02:05 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053216167.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053216266.BMP

Concept two And if anyone says this looks like my 8572 set I'll --- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 18, 2003, 01:06: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Fyron

May 18th, 2003, 02:19 AM

Interesting ship. Hey, it looks just like your 8472 ships! *runs away giggling like a school girl* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

May 18th, 2003, 03:59 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053223131.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053223153.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053223179.BMP

[ May 18, 2003, 03:01: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Fyron

May 18th, 2003, 05:02 AM

Looking good!

CNCRaymond

May 18th, 2003, 05:12 AM

They look like flying bows. Interesting concept to say the least PCP.

Captain Kwok

May 18th, 2003, 06:21 AM

I like the third ship (rightmost) of the three you just posted. Looks neat. Are these for the magic race?

Atrocities

May 18th, 2003, 06:49 AM

Thanks Kwok. I don't know what they are to be used for. Fyron asked me to make a set of 9 ships that any one could build. If he wants them for his mod great, if not I will release them for general use along with all of my other concept ships.

If he wants them developed into a complete set for use with his mod then I can do that as well.

Hey, if you want any of the newer ships for the ST mod just take em.

I am nearing completion of the new Andorian ships. Should have them done by the end of the week.

And CNC, they are based upon bows. I thought that since Bows are used in some games as magic items, ie they shoot magic arrows, then perhaps it would fit. Fyron sent me a link to a page but my connection is so fricking slow that I have not been able to see what an actual spellcaster looks like so I am forced to come up with my own interpitation of one.

Fyron

May 18th, 2003, 07:00 AM

I asked atro to make some ships for use as Mercenary ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tesco samoa

May 20th, 2003, 06:21 PM

Fyron.... Your combat sensors do not increase in ability 1 for each level.

Is this done on purpose ??

Fyron

May 20th, 2003, 06:36 PM

Yes they do. They range from 10% to 35% bonus.

tesco samoa

May 20th, 2003, 09:57 PM

bizarre... they showed up in the modder differently then the text file

tesco samoa

May 20th, 2003, 09:58 PM

bizarre... they showed up in the modder differently then the text file

Fyron

May 20th, 2003, 10:39 PM

Really? Does it happen every time you load them in the modder? Maybe you found a really weird rare bug with the modder.

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 02:21 AM

Which would you (meaning anyone that cares to respond) prefer about ship size:
1) They should increase linearly as the do now.
eg: +50, +50, +50, etc.
2) They should increase exponentially (or at least the rate increase should get bigger with each tech level).
2a) eg: +50, +60, +70, +80, etc.
2b) or: +50, +100, +200, +400, etc.
3) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with a linear progression of ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 200, 250, ... , 400, 700, 800, 900, etc.
4) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with an increasing rate of change for progressing ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 210, 270, ... , 500, 600, 1000, 1100, 1220, 1360, etc.
5) Some other mechanism, with my explanation following.

Just some random values to illustrate the points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ed Kolis

May 22nd, 2003, 03:23 AM

I personally like something like option 2b, albeit with a slower growth curve - each hull size is some percentage, say 125%, the size of the Last... I know about diminishing returns but it gets kind of silly when you get really high in levels you're spending ridiculous amounts of research points for minuscule improvements http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ... also, an exponential curve allows for a wider variety of ship sizes - MOO2 had ships ranging from 25 kT to 1200 kT and that was only 6 sizes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif (OK, so they did double or triple every size...) The only problem with that would be making it feasible to actually design the larger ships... either you'd need scale mounts (which don't work when the largest ship is over 100 times the size of the smallest) or you'd be clicking a LOT of components on the larger ships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 22nd, 2003, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Which would you (meaning anyone that cares to respond) prefer about ship size:
1) They should increase linearly as the do now.
eg: +50, +50, +50, etc.
2) They should increase exponentially (or at least the rate increase should get bigger with each tech level).
2a) eg: +50, +60, +70, +80, etc.
2b) or: +50, +100, +200, +400, etc.
3) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with a linear progression of ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 200, 250, ... , 400, 700, 800, 900, etc.
4) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with an increasing rate of change for progressing ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 210, 270, ... , 500, 600, 1000, 1100, 1220, 1360, etc.
5) Some other mechanism, with my explanation following.

Just some random values to illustrate the points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I think the different should not too big so that a little advance in research would result in a big advantage in combat, but big enough at high level.

I think it is simply better to multiply by a factor than to add a constant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (even though it is similar)

For example you decide the size between m (min)and M (Max). You want N ships. k is the factor for size increase between two ship.
M = k ^ (N - 1) * m ==> k = (M / m) ^ (1 / (N - 1))

So if we take m = 100 and M = 2000, N = 10, we have:
k = (2000/100)^(1/(10-1)) = 1.39 (139%)
The size Sn = m * k ^ (n-1). But it is better to round it down to closest multiple of 10 (IMO):
100 140 190 270 380 530 740 1030 1430 2000

Just my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
(I used that one...)

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 05:44 AM

I know how to do math, you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ed:
I am not going to use scale mounts. I am also not going to use ship hull size based mounts.

[ May 22, 2003, 04:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 09:52 AM

I am thinking of having 3 ranges of ships separated by sizeable gaps. Light starships, capital ships, and even bigger ships, perhaps "titan" ships. The ship Groups would be staggered, so you would start to get some smaller capital ships while you are still getting new starship sized ships, and the same with capital ships and titan ships. I hope that made sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 22, 2003, 08:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

StarBaseSweeper

May 22nd, 2003, 10:18 AM

I guess the advantage of this is that when reaching the gap every empires will have time to construct fleets of the maximum ship size of the current serie, without one empire making the ship size difference getting bigger and bigger.

The one that would have research bigger weapons may have a chance to change the balance during that gap, before his/her enemy finally get the first ship of the next serie (bigger weapon, same ship size). Then...

EDIT: After reading my own message, I wonder:
What will be the advantage of having a bigger hull in the Adamant mod?

EDIT2: Typo correction.

[ May 22, 2003, 10:15: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 11:13 AM

More leaky shields on the ship, so more damage can be reduced by it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Concentration of defenses into fewer ships. Say you have one 800 kT ship versus 2 400 kT ships. They should be about equal, right? Well, have them do half as much damage to each other. One 400 kT ship is destroyed, and so the average firepower of the smaller ships is instantly cut in half. The 800 kT ship is still alive, though battered, so it now has more strength than the other side does. This is of course a simplification, but it illustrates the basic idea.

Here is a preview of the next Version. Adamant sure is leaky, what with leaky armor, shields and now update leaks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Version 0.11.04:
1. Changed - Talismans now have boarding defense abilities. They are subject to biotoxin weapons and mental shredders. Also, fanatical crew destroy the relics before any boarding parties can capture them.
2. Added - Flag Bridge, which gives combat bonuses to all of the empire's ships in the system.
3. Changed - Colony ships now recieve a 60% reduction in maintenance costs.
4. Changed - Transports now recieve a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
5. Changed - Master computers now come in 5 levels instead of 3.
6. Added - Aggressive master computers, which provide the ship with a 10% attack bonus and a 10% defense penalty.
7. Changed - Increased cost of Advanced Power Conservation from 500 to 750.
8. Added - Tower of Protection facility for magic races, which adds 15-45 shield points to all ships in the system.
9. Fixed - Psychic Scanner facilities are now Psionic Probe facilities. Psychic training facilities are now Psionic training facilities.
10. Changed - Switched organic and mineral costs of Psionic training facilities and Psionic Probe facilities.
11. Fixed - The description of the Hardy Industrialist racial trait now accurately reflects the fact that it does not apply to Temporal Space Yards.
12. Changed - Increased storage abilities of homeworld facilities from 5000 to 7500.

[ May 22, 2003, 10:34: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

StarBaseSweeper

May 22nd, 2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
More leaky shields on the ship, so more damage can be reduced by it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif OK, I see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I guess it could also be to be able to have "bigger" leaky armor.

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 09:15 PM

Larger armor components start to defeat the leakiness. If they have too many hit points, the chance of internals being hit goes down tremendously. Hmm... I wonder what an "ultra-armor" component would do if it was, say, 100 kT and had half the hp/kT ratio of heavy armor (same scaling as light to heavy)...

StarBaseSweeper

May 23rd, 2003, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Larger armor components start to defeat the leakiness. If they have too many hit points, the chance of internals being hit goes down tremendously. Hmm... I wonder what an "ultra-armor" component would do if it was, say, 100 kT and had half the hp/kT ratio of heavy armor (same scaling as light to heavy)...I could check out, I already wrote the excel sheet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 23rd, 2003, 05:07 AM

Well it just requires one component to test it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Excel spreadsheet for what? You do realize that SJ made a program that can quickly and easily generate tech grids (even of one dimension, so 100 levels of some component, for example), right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 23rd, 2003, 06:35 AM

Yes I know.

It is just a excel sheet to calculate the average damage leaking to the non-armor component depending on the size, structure of the armor.

Well of course only in one case, so nt perfect but gives an idea.

I use 5kt shoot, and see how much the armor takes.

Fyron

May 23rd, 2003, 06:39 AM

There are nearly no weapons that do only 5 damage... that isn't a very good test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Try 50 for more accurate results. And, it is quite random, so no hard calculations will be quite correct anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

StarBaseSweeper

May 23rd, 2003, 08:58 AM

I tested with component:

level A: size = 1, structure = 5 (16 comp, total 80kt)
level B: size = 4, structure = 15 (4 comp, total 60kt)
level C: size = 16, structure = 40 (1 comp, total 40kt)

It works well, each level protect better than previous one with struct/size ratio.
For 4 shoots of 5kt (total 20kt) the leaking damage to other components is:
A: 10kt
B: 8.76kt
C: 7.74kt

It should be tested with your numbers though.

StarBaseSweeper

May 23rd, 2003, 09:05 AM

EDIT: replace 15kt component by 10kt components http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Is it fine now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
EDIT2: add ultra-armor test, change size of ship.
EDIT3: I'm lazy, I test only level 1 armor.
EDIT4: add"." because of space optmization

Ok, Tell me if the following configuration seems ok for you:

Ship sizes of 400
I fill 100kt with armor, the rest with 10kt struct/size components.

I use the number of your armor:
Armor A: size = 1, struct = 10
Armor B: size = 10, struct = 50
Armor C: size = 100, struct = 250

.............Armor.................Comp........... ....Ship(total)
S480-A: 100x10kt (1000kt) 30x10kt (300kt) 1300kt
S480-B: 10x50kt (500kt) .. 30x10kt (300kt) 800kt
S480-C: 1x250kt (250kt) .. 30x10kt (300kt) 550kt

I shoot 50kt shoots, up to 6.

Would that be a realistic test for you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And yes it is possible to calculate even with randomness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But you know mathematics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 23, 2003, 08:50: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Fyron

May 23rd, 2003, 09:29 AM

Most components are 10kt/10hp. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Why don't you just use normal-type components to get more accurate results? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What would be really good to know is what effect adding a 100 kT leaky armor that has half the hp/kT ratio of the heavy armor would have to Adamant (heavy armor has 1/2 the hp/kT ratio of light armor). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Would a BB with this "ultra" armor be significantly stronger than a BB using an equal tonnage of heavy armor?

[ May 23, 2003, 08:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

June 17th, 2003, 01:12 AM

Here is a new sneak peek to keep you interested:

Version 0.11.04:
1. Changed - Talismans now have boarding defense abilities. They are subject to biotoxin weapons and mental shredders. Also, fanatical crew destroy the relics before any boarding parties can capture them.
2. Added - Flag Bridge, which gives combat bonuses to all of the empire's ships in the system.
3. Changed - Colony ships now recieve a 60% reduction in maintenance costs.
4. Changed - Transports now recieve a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
5. Changed - Master computers now come in 5 levels instead of 3.
6. Added - Aggressive master computers, which provide the ship with a 10% attack bonus and a 10% defense penalty.
7. Changed - Increased cost of Advanced Power Conservation from 500 to 750.
8. Added - Tower of Protection facility for magic races, which adds 15-45 shield points to all ships in the system.
9. Fixed - Psychic Scanner facilities are now Psionic Probe facilities. Psychic training facilities are now Psionic training facilities.
10. Changed - Switched organic and mineral costs of Psionic training facilities and Psionic Probe facilities.
11. Fixed - The description of the Hardy Industrialist racial trait now accurately reflects the fact that it does not apply to Temporal Space Yards.
12. Changed - Increased storage abilities of homeworld facilities from 5000 to 7500.
13. Added - Order Snafu II, which does not give the target any notification. This keeps the project useable in PBW games.
14. Changed - Spartan/Standard/Luxurious CQ now give -10/-5/0 combat modifiers instead of -7/0/+3
15. Changed - Tachyon Sensors et all now have increasing costs per level.
16. Added - Scrying tech area, which is the Magic Scanners tech area.

Fyron

June 18th, 2003, 09:10 AM

Version 0.11.04 is released!

Fyron

June 18th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I honestly do not know. Making it suitable for SP cuts down on the cool stuff that is possible to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

minipol

June 19th, 2003, 01:29 AM

Fyron,

will adamant be focused on PBW or is it also going to be suitable for solo play?

Fyron

June 20th, 2003, 12:31 AM

I am planning on making my armor system have 3-4 types of armor available at once that are useful. There will be cheap stuff that provides low protetion, medium stuff, and expensive stuff that provices high protection. I'm trying to determine the best way to implement this. How does this look (arbitrary values used)?
1 kT comps
1.0x HP / 1.0x resource cost
1.5x HP / 2.5x cost
2.0x HP / 5.0x cost

The strongest armor provides twice as much protection, but costs five times as much.

Fyron

June 20th, 2003, 09:06 AM

In the mod, I have Space Yard Expansion Projects, which expand the SY production rates of a planet beyond a normal SY. I am considering making them required to get good production rates by making the SY facilities have rates down at about 500 or so. What do you think?

Ed Kolis

June 21st, 2003, 06:32 AM

Re: armor - In ADDITION to the heavy/light armor? Geez, aren't you taking this a bit too far? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (BTW, don't duplicate the components - this is a perfect place to use mounts!)

Re: spaceyards - As long as the yards and expansions have a reasonable construction cost so you can actually build things at a decent rate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

June 21st, 2003, 10:42 PM

Re: armor - In ADDITION to the heavy/light armor? Geez, aren't you taking this a bit too far? (BTW, don't duplicate the components - this is a perfect place to use mounts!) Mounts don't let you have different component pictures though.

JLS

June 21st, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I honestly do not know. Making it suitable for SP cuts down on the cool stuff that is possible to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif We can do this Fryon, without loosing anything. We just have to make a few Compromises for the AIs sake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You sound right on with the below Armor and the starting SY Rate of 500; Posts.

[ June 21, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

June 22nd, 2003, 02:11 AM

I have a thought...(scarry) For research when in the same area IE Ion Engines, when going fron 1 to 2 to 3 have a lower point spread however when going for the next type, Jacketed have a higher amount for this, thoughts are this, making improvements to a design not as costly as building from scratch.
Just my $0.02 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ed Kolis

June 22nd, 2003, 04:32 AM

That would be possible, but would require making separate tech areas for each engine type. And even then, you'd have to account for the different tech cost settings - on Low tech cost, if level 1 ion engines are 5000 RP, level 3 ion engines are 15000 RP, but on High, they would be 45000 RP! So you'd either have an abnormally large gap in low-tech-cost games, or an abnormally small gap in high-tech-cost games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Fyron

June 24th, 2003, 05:02 AM

Sneak Peek!

Version 0.11.05:
1. Fixed - Level 1 long range scanners now have correct tech reqs.
2. Changed - HW facilities on low and medium tech start games now produce 1000 of each resource instead of 1301.
3. Changed - HW facilities are now in the Zaibatsu Infrastructure facility group, so they will appear at the end of the list in the constuction window. zaibatsu: a Japanese word for "the few families that own and control most of the industry in Japan". (Ekolis)
4. Added - Organic and Magic Monolith facilities.
5. Changed - Extended Research facilities to 5 levels. Lowered cost of Applied Research from 100k to 75k.
6. Added - Mineral Purifier, System Mineral Purifier, Gene Synthesizer, Photosynthetic Accelerator, System Photosynthetic Accelerator, Mana Channeler.
7. Changed - Added Physics as a Tech Req of Resource Manipulation. Increased their cost to 18000 of each resource. Added Organic Resource Converters and Alchemy Labs.
8. Changed - Gestation Vats and Replicant Centers are no longer a part of the Organic Manipulation tech tree. They are now general Organic Race facilities and require Cloning.
9. Changed - Cloning now requires both Biotechnology and Biosynthesis.
10. Changed - Halved effects of Replicant Centers.
11. Changed - Medical Labs are no longer a part of the Organic Manipulation tech tree. They are now general Organic Race facilities and require Immune System Advancement.
12. Added - Apothecary Centers, which are Magic equivalents of the System Hospital.
13. Added - Drug Infuser and Theatre Complex, which are Organic and Magic UPCs.
14. Added - Planetary shield generators for Organic and Magic races.
15. Added - Gravitational shield facilities for Organic and Magic races.

Facilities.txt is now completed as far as the basics go!

Atrocities

June 24th, 2003, 05:04 AM

This should be a sweet mod once your finsihed with it Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

June 26th, 2003, 11:22 AM

More Sneak Peek Fun

Here is some more info on 0.11.05:

16. Changed - Moved basic resource facilities (Mineral Miners, Organic Farms, Radioactives Extractors, Monoliths) to the Basic Exploitation facility group so that they will always be displayed at the top of the list in the construction queue window.
17. Changed - Moved Spaceport, Resupply Depot, Resource Converter, Ultra-Recycler to Resource & Supply Mgmt. facility group.
18. Changed - Moved remaining Resource Extraction facilities to the Resource Enhancement group, which is a more appropriate name given the nature of them.
19. Changed - Removed Armor tech grid and restored old armor system.
20. Changed - Removed Projectile Weapons tech grid.
21. Added - Counter - Intelligence Experts racial trait, which causes CI projects to have an increase in effective level by one point and costs 1000 racial points.
22. Added - System Hospitals now generate between 100 and 130 research points.
23. Changed - Plague Bombs are now 80 kT and cost 10x as much as they did before.
24. Added - Gaians racial trait, which allows the race to improve the conditions of planets from the start of the game and costs 300 racial points.

[ June 26, 2003, 10:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

June 26th, 2003, 12:18 PM

0.11.05 is now released! Well... it will be uploaded in 20 min, but I am off to bed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ed Kolis

June 26th, 2003, 08:35 PM

Fyron - I had a thought about those mercenary ships... check your PM

Fyron

June 27th, 2003, 08:43 AM

New Sneak Peek

Version 0.12.00:
1. Added - Intelligence Disrpution intel projects.
2. Changed - Appended the phrase "Completing the project causes all of the defensive points stored in it to be wasted." to all Counter-Intelligence project descriptions.
3. Fixed - Doubled Tonnage Structure of Physical leaky armors.
4. Fixed - Armor tech now requires Basic Armor 4 instead of 6.
5. Fixed - Heavy leaky armors can now only be placed on ships and bases.
6. Added - Organic race leaky armors.
7. Changed - Organic races no longer have ship shields. They retain facility shield generators and Planet/System Graviational Shield facilities.
8. Changed - Biokinetic Fields now costs 7500 research instead of 10000.
9. Added - Entertainment Networks, which improve happiness of a single planet by twice that of an equivalent Urban Pacification Center.
10. Changed - Applied Political Science now costs 20000 research.
11. Changed - Moved some racial tech trait theoretical techs to Racial Theoretical group.
12. Changed - Mechanoids racial tech trait now works fully for Magic races. Organic races only get the facilities.
13. Added - Hunter-Killer Homoncoli, the Magic race Version of Hunter-Killer Drones.
14. Added - Astral Harnessing tech area and Astral Sail components, which are solar sails with +2 standard movement.
15. Fixed - Roman Numberals of Reactors were off.
16. Changed - There are now 9 levels of Mana Shard Generators.

[ June 27, 2003, 08:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

June 27th, 2003, 10:26 AM

More Sneak Peek Goodness

Version 0.12.00:
17. Fixed - Organic and Magic Races now have Psychic and Temporal Combat Sensor enhancements.
18. Added - Organic and Magic Versions of Tachyon Scanners and Hyper Optics. Gravitic Sensors remain the exclusive domain of Physical Races.
19. Changed - Hyper Optics now require a level in Physics, Bioenergetics or Divination.
20. Removed - Organic manipulation trait has been removed.
21. Changed - Magic shields are now leaky.
22. Changed - Megafluxer now generates 300 shields and regenerates 30.

Well, it seems as if the basics of Components.txt is now completed save playtesting and random new ideas, and of course the weapons. The mod is moving right along!

Fyron

June 27th, 2003, 10:46 AM

I have not heard any suggestions/complaints in here for a while... has everyone lost interest, or what? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

minipol

June 27th, 2003, 10:58 PM

You want a complaint/question? OK. When will it be ready? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Oh yeah, did i mention that i want it to be playable in SP too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
That's about it for now.

mottlee

June 28th, 2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by minipol:
You want a complaint/question? OK. When will it be ready? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Oh yeah, did i mention that i want it to be playable in SP too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
That's about it for now.DITTO! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

June 30th, 2003, 12:51 AM

More Sneak Peek Goodness

Version 0.12.00:
23. Fixed - Finished changes to population modifiers in Settings.txt.
24. Changed - Engines now provide penalties or bonuses to "ECM", ranging from -4 to +10.
25. Fixed - There are now Magic Propulsion Experts engines.

Fyron

June 30th, 2003, 01:55 AM

There has been a minor web site redesign. Check it out!

Fyron

June 30th, 2003, 10:22 PM

Still More Sneak Peek Goodness

26. Changed - Hospitals and Medical Labs now say that they cure level X plagues instead of prevent them, which is a more accurate description of what they really do (cure the plague after one turn of damage).
27. Changed - Plague Bomb descriptions now include an average population killed per turn in their descriptions.
28. Changed - Weapon Mounts now have technology requirements.
29. Added - Telekinetic Mount, Clairsentient Mount, Fate Mount.
30. Fixed - Maximum vehicle size for ship and base mounts increased from 1500 to 3000.
31. Changed - The description of Neutron Cannon (SS) now states that it kills "security teams" instead of "security stations."
32. Fixed - Descriptions of unique ruins are now set up appropriately.
33. Fixed - New Adamant unique ruins techs readded to StellarAbilityTypes.txt.
34. Fixed - Descriptions and pictures of Class X Plague Spore intel missions are now correct.
35. Added - Level 2-5 plagues can now break out on planets as a result of random events.

[ June 30, 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

June 30th, 2003, 11:31 PM

"29. Added - Telekinetic Mount, Clairsentient Mount, Fate Mount."

These mounts are basically better Versions of a standard mount. Telekinetic Mount is an improved Heavy Mount, the other two are Accuracy Mounts. Can anyone think of other racial tech traits that it would make sense to have a mount for?

Ed Kolis

July 1st, 2003, 05:54 AM

re: 12 - you misspelled "Homunculi" (I think)
re: 24 - Remember not to split the engines into different component families, otherwise players could add one of each (positive) type of engine and get huge bonuses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
re: 32 - so now shouldn't they be Neutron Cannon (ST)?

Lord Kodos

July 1st, 2003, 06:18 AM

Re:Re:12-I think it may be Heamonculi

Fyron

July 1st, 2003, 09:35 AM

"re: 12 - you misspelled "Homunculi" (I think)"

I pluralized "homonculus" (or is it "homonculous"?). I will check the spelling later, but I am fairly certain I spelled it correctly. And no Kodos, that is not at all what I was making. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"re: 24 - Remember not to split the engines into different component families, otherwise players could add one of each (positive) type of engine and get huge bonuses"

They are all in one family, so it is not a problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"re: 32 - so now shouldn't they be Neutron Cannon (ST)?"

No, as they still destroy Security Station components. It is just aesthetic; how do you "kill" a station? The station technically remains intact, but the security personnel die, so you get the effect of the SS being destroyed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

July 1st, 2003, 06:59 PM

Bonuses from different component families stack. This is why ECM, Stealth Armor and Scattering Armor stack. So, yes. Long Range Scanners give a CS bonus, ranging from IIRC 2-15 or something like that.

Loser

July 2nd, 2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
[b]24. Changed - Engines now provide penalties or bonuses to "ECM", ranging from -4 to +10.Will this stack with other ECM components?

Fyron

July 2nd, 2003, 11:18 PM

I have started an Empire Setup guide for Adamant Mod. It can be viewed here:

http://galileo.spaceports.com/~kazharii/adamant/Empire_Setup.html

What do you think? Is more stuff needed? Could it be organized more effeciently? Other comments/suggestions?

Fyron

July 3rd, 2003, 04:56 AM

Version 0.12.00 of Adamant Mod has been released. And boy, is it a whopper! Check out the History (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~kazharii/adamant/History.zip) file for a list of the latest updates!

Fyron

July 21st, 2003, 07:24 AM

Might as well post some recent mod history:

Version 0.12.01:
1. Added - Improbability Drive, Intergalactic Expressway events.
2. Fixed - Healing Temple II and III are now in the Religious facility group instead of Population Support.
3. Fixed - Radioactives Alchemy Labs are now Mana Crystal Alchemy Labs.
4. Changed - A lot of facilities use new graphics from Planet Pack 1.10 of the Image Mod.
5. Changed - Reworked Psionic Ship/Fleet Training Facilities to fit with the new Adamant training model. They train at +1% per turn over the non-Psionic equivalent.
6. Changed - Magic race Entertainment Network is now Temple District.
7. Changed - Magic race Theatre Complex is now Theatre District.
8. Fixed - Crop Rotation I and II now require Organics Farming instead of Organics Extraction.
9. Changed - Remote Miners can now be placed on Small Satellites.
10. Changed - Energy Dampeners now have 5 levels instead of 3, and they range from Crystalline Weapons 2-6 instead of 6-8.
11. Changed - Mental Flailers now have high organic costs and have 5 levels instead of 3, ranging from Psionic Weapons 2-6 instead of 1-3.
12. Changed - Repulsor Beams now have some range attenuation, and have 5 levels instead of 3.
13. Changed - Tractor beams now have range equal to the square of the "damage" (distance pulled), and have 4 levels instead of 3. They now get 5, 10, 20, 40 bonus to hit.
14. Fixed - Corrected description of Xentronium Armor tech area.
15. Added - Ancient Energy Dampener tech area and components, which are weakened ancient ruins Versions of the Crystalline Energy Dampeners.
16. Added - Hints about what techs are needed for useful results from ancient ruins technologies.
17. Changed - Massive Ionic Disperser and Massive Shield Depleter now require Xenoarchaeology 1.

Fyron

July 26th, 2003, 09:07 PM

I added a new Sneak Peak page on the mod web site.

The Canuck

August 1st, 2003, 01:15 AM

just wanted to ask a q, and dont hurt me if this has been asked but, is this mod purely for PBW or can it be played in singleplayer

DeadZone

August 1st, 2003, 01:29 AM

Its for both, but the AI isnt all that good yet if I remember correctly

Fyron

August 1st, 2003, 03:14 AM

Currently, the AI is incapable of doing simple things like design colony ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If someone wants to volunteer to help with the AI, there will be AI support. I currently have no desire to touch the AI files.

Captain Kwok

August 2nd, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I added a new Sneak Peak page on the mod web site.I cannot find this page! Where have you stuck it?

Fyron

August 2nd, 2003, 10:04 PM

Minor technical glitch. All fixed up now.

grumbler

August 4th, 2003, 04:10 AM

IF: mind sharing what the problem was? I have had problems with some of the races building colony ships in my B5 varient mods and would love to hear what you have done to solve that. In return, I will share my own limited AI expertise with your mod (which I will download when I get to work tomorrow).

Fyron

August 4th, 2003, 04:32 AM

They do not have the correct number of required engines (I think it was two too many), so they will not design them.

grumbler

August 4th, 2003, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
They do not have the correct number of required engines (I think it was two too many), so they will not design them.Ah, that wasn't my problem, alas!

I think it may have had something to do with the shft from expansion to infrastructure AI states in my case (and thus never the need to have a colonizer). I am still trying to track down exactly how/why Ai states shift.

Still, I will keep an eye on this thread and the mod and see where I can help. The mod sounds pretty good - a real break from the SE4 mod standard.

Chronon

August 4th, 2003, 10:18 PM

Fyron - A while ago, I volunteered to adapt my Verdurans to the Adamant mod. I had forgotten, though, about Adamant being neo-standard. I haven't made the Verdurans neo-standard compatible, and I probably won't be making them compatible any time soon, so they really won't work for your mod. Sorry about that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I would still be willing to put together an AI for one of the races, though, and I thought the Zanarii might be interesting. I would use your speech file, and mod them to whatever play style you think is appropriate. Would you like me to go ahead and build an AI for them (or, alternatively, one of the others)?

[ August 04, 2003, 21:18: Message edited by: Chronon ]

Fyron

August 4th, 2003, 10:52 PM

It is Neo-Standard compatible, but not required. All vehicle sizes use a stock image as the secondary, so if any images it wants to use are not there, it will have a backup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif In fact, Adamant calls for a lot more ship sizes than the Neo-Standard has, but will likely never be made for any sets (as there are a lot of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

I would not be opposed at all to you making a Zanar'ri AI for Adamant.

If you could, please keep a log of all changes you make to get AIs to work in Adamant, so that I (and others) can have an easier time of adapting AIs to the mod.

FMMonty

August 5th, 2003, 12:12 AM

IF, I don't mind helping with this Mod rather than the B5 mod if you'd like.

Considering what I'm trained to do it might be best if I proof read weapons and components to check they are sensible. I really hate the way large centari ballistic torps fired from ships can target everything except seekers, but the small ones when fired from fighters can only target ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However if you have some other ideas for what you want me to do then I am happy to go with it.

Fyron

August 5th, 2003, 12:44 AM

I didn't really mean to steal you from the B5 Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It all depends on how much time you want to put into it, really. Most of the mod is done at this point. It is weapons and images that are what is left. I am fine with you doing as little or as much as you want to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Here are some ideas:

I want the base weapon firing rate to be 2 instead of 1, to create the possibility of "machine gun" weapons that fire really fast (rate 1), relative to the other weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I was thining of having "heavy" Versions of a lot of weapons that are slower to fire, have bonuses to range, damage, +10 to hit, and the first three range values are 0 damage, to create blind spots. I might also have "medium" weapons that are in between "light" and "heavy" in damage, range, etc., but have no bonus to hit and only the first damage value a 0, for a small blind spot.

Do you think you could come up with plausible weapons for the Organic Races? They need about as many as are in the stock game (could be less, more, whatever; they need a variety available). All of the current weapons (save racials like Temporal) will be Physical Race Only. These would preferably not be copies of the stock weapons with organic names, as that would be really boring (and I plan on replacing a lot of stock weapons with custom ones anyways).

Or if you do not really want to do organic weapons, perhaps you could try to adapt the weapons from this game to SE4: http://www.wizards.com/alternity/files/Warships.pdf for the Physical Races. I am thinking that projectile type weapons will have high damage, but 1/2 or 1/4 dmg to shields (depending on the weapon), and that "laser" weapons will have low damage but 2x or 4x to shields (depending on the weapon). Both Groups would definitely be researchable to the end game, with the idea that you pick if you want your race to specialize in one or the other, or just do average in both areas for less power but more versatility.

Do you have any specific ideas on how Physical, Organic and Magic weapons can be differentiated? Such as general trends that all Physical weapons follow that Organic and Magic ones do not.

If you want to "proofread" stuff, go ahead and post any suggestions/comments you have.

Fyron

August 5th, 2003, 01:58 AM

Oh, and if there is anything else you would like to specifically help out on, feel free to suggest it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Chronon

August 5th, 2003, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is Neo-Standard compatible, but not required. All vehicle sizes use a stock image as the secondary, so if any images it wants to use are not there, it will have a backup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif In fact, Adamant calls for a lot more ship sizes than the Neo-Standard has, but will likely never be made for any sets (as there are a lot of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

I would not be opposed at all to you making a Zanar'ri AI for Adamant.

If you could, please keep a log of all changes you make to get AIs to work in Adamant, so that I (and others) can have an easier time of adapting AIs to the mod.So, Adamant goes beyond the neo-standard? Well, in that case, I will go ahead and adapt the Verdurans (they'll be organic).

Since I'll probably have to play hot seat against myself (no AIs to play at this point), I might as well do the Zanar'ri as well. Did you have any specific characteristics in mind for them?

Fyron

August 5th, 2003, 03:47 AM

Hmm... definitely a Physical race. They would have super combat skills, Rock Hydrogen HW type, perhaps Master Strategists and Master Tacticians, Hardy Industrialists.

By the way, I am fairly certain that dummy abilities will have to be added to a lot of components to get the AI to use them correctly (such as Armor). So, a standard system should be worked out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Chronon

August 5th, 2003, 04:47 AM

Okay, that sounds good for the Zanr'ri. I'll have to wait until the weapons are finished before getting started (otherwise I'd have to change all the weapons families). I'll check in here from time to time to see how that is going.

Ed Kolis

August 5th, 2003, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I was thining of having "heavy" Versions of a lot of weapons that are slower to fire, have bonuses to range, damage, +10 to hit, and the first three range values are 0 damage, to create blind spots. I might also have "medium" weapons that are in between "light" and "heavy" in damage, range, etc., but have no bonus to hit and only the first damage value a 0, for a small blind spot.If you do that, you might want to get rid of or rename the "Heavy Mount", as it would be kind of silly to have a Heavy Mounted Light Antiproton Beam http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif May I suggest Overloaded mount as an alternate name?

BTW, I like the "blind spot" idea, but since there's no way to get the combat AI to engage at a specific range, I'm not sure how it would work with "optimal firing range" - would it actually try to get in the right range to fire, or would it just close to point blank and not be able to hit anything?

Do you have any specific ideas on how Physical, Organic and Magic weapons can be differentiated? Such as general trends that all Physical weapons follow that Organic and Magic ones do not.I imagine that in terms of physical vs. energy weapons, as you said before with the strength against shields vs. strength against hull, that organics would have more physical weapons, magicals would have more energy weapons, and physical races would actually have a balance (not physical weapons as you might expect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) The organic races might also have "melee" weapons - range one weapons that represent a space creature's claws, teeth, tails, etc. I'd imagine most organic weapons (except the melee weapons) would use a lot of supplies, but then I'm just going by the P&N "supplies = physical stuff, radioactives = energy" model... I might guess that magical weapons would tend to have longer range than their physical or organic equivalents, since magic can be cast, well, magically, at a distance. (edit: also, to-hit bonuses... how often have you seen a "cause major wounds" spell miss? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ August 05, 2003, 04:47: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

Fyron

August 5th, 2003, 08:27 AM

BTW, I like the "blind spot" idea, but since there's no way to get the combat AI to engage at a specific range, I'm not sure how it would work with "optimal firing range" - would it actually try to get in the right range to fire, or would it just close to point blank and not be able to hit anything?The way the AI closes to point blank is that it moves in to the closest range that it can fire at. So, it will move to range 4 and fire (for a 3 range blind spot). It will not try to fire at range 1-3.

FMMonty

August 6th, 2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I didn't really mean to steal you from the B5 Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It all depends on how much time you want to put into it, really. Most of the mod is done at this point. It is weapons and images that are what is left. I am fine with you doing as little or as much as you want to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Here are some ideas:

I want the base weapon firing rate to be 2 instead of 1, to create the possibility of "machine gun" weapons that fire really fast (rate 1), relative to the other weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I was thining of having "heavy" Versions of a lot of weapons that are slower to fire, have bonuses to range, damage, +10 to hit, and the first three range values are 0 damage, to create blind spots. I might also have "medium" weapons that are in between "light" and "heavy" in damage, range, etc., but have no bonus to hit and only the first damage value a 0, for a small blind spot.

Do you think you could come up with plausible weapons for the Organic Races? They need about as many as are in the stock game (could be less, more, whatever; they need a variety available). All of the current weapons (save racials like Temporal) will be Physical Race Only. These would preferably not be copies of the stock weapons with organic names, as that would be really boring (and I plan on replacing a lot of stock weapons with custom ones anyways).

Or if you do not really want to do organic weapons, perhaps you could try to adapt the weapons from this game to SE4: http://www.wizards.com/alternity/files/Warships.pdf for the Physical Races. I am thinking that projectile type weapons will have high damage, but 1/2 or 1/4 dmg to shields (depending on the weapon), and that "laser" weapons will have low damage but 2x or 4x to shields (depending on the weapon). Both Groups would definitely be researchable to the end game, with the idea that you pick if you want your race to specialize in one or the other, or just do average in both areas for less power but more versatility.

Do you have any specific ideas on how Physical, Organic and Magic weapons can be differentiated? Such as general trends that all Physical weapons follow that Organic and Magic ones do not.

If you want to "proofread" stuff, go ahead and post any suggestions/comments you have.More than happy to do the organics weapons, it sounds like fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway I need a template for a "standard" weapon to base it off, and also some idea on how the AI will manage battles between ships with melee range weapons and ships with short range blindspots (that could be a potential problem).

The main thing will be a standard weapon idea, so we can see how to balance damage per ton, range, damage per turn (especially important with leaky armour since big rare hits work better) and such like. I would like to create a whole range of weapons that are actually useful, rather than have a couple of lines which are great and all the rest being worthless which is so often the case.

Fyron

August 6th, 2003, 03:10 AM

For damage/kT, keep them at similar levels to the weapons already in the mod in relation to location on the tech tree.

Leaky Armor does not require big hits. Small hits that do not destroy any armor just combine their damage with the next hit, so you get the same effect. It is Leaky Shields where the big hits are more effective than lots of small ones.

Suicide Junkie

August 6th, 2003, 05:03 PM

For very small damage hits, (on the order of half the hitpoints of a single armor/internal component) leaky shields will absorb more than their intended percentage of the damage.

For high damage hits (greater than the crystalline ability or total shield generation amount), then the shields will absorb less than thier intended percentage of the damage.

General Woundwort

August 7th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Submitted for your consideration, two sets of buttons for the Adamant Mod's specialty races...

Magic Main Buttons (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1060290179.bmp)

Organic Main Buttons (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1060290269.bmp)

Fyron

August 8th, 2003, 03:49 AM

Those are very cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Consider them included.

Fyron

August 10th, 2003, 08:04 AM

FMMonty:
Any progress or ideas you want to run by me or anything?

Ed Kolis

August 12th, 2003, 04:27 AM

Since the PBEM test is getting into gear, I thought I'd take a look at the latest Version of Adamant... well looky here, another long list of issues! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Why do magic races get a Temple District? Isn't that religious? Perhaps the facility should be renamed... Also see Altars of Healing, Keepers of the Faith...

Fyron, how did you ever manage to find out all those new racial trait abilities? I've never seen a mod with a racial trait that increases repair rate or minerals storage before...

Isn't it confusing for Magic races to call their Cruisers Frigates when there's a smaller Physical ship size called a Frigate?

Shouldn't ICBM's built-in standard movement ability be displayed in-game?

The organic mercenary ships still have the old names (Bio Destroyer, etc.) and there is a Mercenary Corvette even though there is no hull called a Corvette

The psionic disciplines don't seem to be implemented... I was wondering what Metacreation was but I couldn't find it anywhere except in TechArea.txt and RacialTraits.txt; could you tell us which racial traits aren't implemented so we don't pick them and wonder where stuff is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Regeneration" is misspelled in the description of the Inherent Regeneration trait

What's the difference between Riot Gear and Troop Cockpit, other than the fact that Riot Gear can't go on mechanized troops?

Why does the Basic Bridge have 11 hitpoints while the standard bridge only has 10? It's not just a typo, it appears with the Neural Cores and Spelljammer Helms too...

How about if the different crew quarters levels provided maintenance bonuses and penalties? You know, you're more likely to take care of the ship when you're taken care of yourself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

How can the Religious Talisman be placed on satellites or drones?

Iron armor is as strong as titanium? What ever happened to magical races getting weak armor and strong shields? Now everything's pretty much the same only you have 3 copies of everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Emissive Armor III is in the general group Advanced Armor Engineering while the other Emissive Armors are in just plain Armor... and what's with those absurd tech requirements?!? level 60 of Advanced Armor?!?

Why are there cloaking devices for mines if mines get built-in level 10 cloaks?

Point defense weapons don't list their to-hit bonuses (and weren't you one of the ones saying those bonuses were too high? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

The Neutron Cannon (BP) is kind of useless since the Neutron Cannon (SS) will already take out Boarding Parties - since the Boarding Parties have the boarding Defense ability as well as attack!

I have an idea for plague bombs... give them a huge minus to hit, representing the chance of the plague spreading! Maybe even multiple levels of plague bombs with different chances of infection...

Fyron

August 12th, 2003, 05:18 AM

Why do magic races get a Temple District? Isn't that religious? Perhaps the facility should be renamed... Also see Altars of Healing, Keepers of the Faith...Note that it is Deeply Religious, not Religious. I see nothing wrong with a race that is not Deeply Religious being able to make temples. They are not at all like Shrines, just happiness facilities. Religion played a more prominent role in the medieval ages of Europe than it does today in the US, and that is where the Magic races are sort of set. At least, the historical aspects.

Fyron, how did you ever manage to find out all those new racial trait abilities? I've never seen a mod with a racial trait that increases repair rate or minerals storage before...They are listed in the Modding 101 Tutorial. I originally saw the abilities in this thread:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=003414#000004

Isn't it confusing for Magic races to call their Cruisers Frigates when there's a smaller Physical ship size called a Frigate?Frigates were massive ships in the Age of Sail, unlike the modern usage of frigate. As the magic races are set around there somewhere, it made sense to use Frigate (as well as a lot of other medieval and later sail ships). I don't think it will be too confusing, but if it ends up confusing people, I have no idea what else to call the ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Shouldn't ICBM's built-in standard movement ability be displayed in-game?Probably. I never really finsihed them up, just created the basics. They are probably rather unbalanced.

The organic mercenary ships still have the old names (Bio Destroyer, etc.)Will have to fix that.

and there is a Mercenary Corvette even though there is no hull called a CorvetteYeah there is. It is available to Physical races, between the Escort and Light Frigate in size and tech req.

The psionic disciplines don't seem to be implemented... I was wondering what Metacreation was but I couldn't find it anywhere except in TechArea.txt and RacialTraits.txt; could you tell us which racial traits aren't implemented so we don't pick them and wonder where stuff is? I wasn't quite sure what to put in them, and I have loaned my Psionics Handbook (D&D) to a friend, so can't really fill them all up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

"Regeneration" is misspelled in the description of the Inherent Regeneration traitOops! I thought I had fixed that months ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What's the difference between Riot Gear and Troop Cockpit, other than the fact that Riot Gear can't go on mechanized troops?Seems I never got around to fleshing out Infantry components. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Why does the Basic Bridge have 11 hitpoints while the standard bridge only has 10? It's not just a typo, it appears with the Neural Cores and Spelljammer Helms too...It makes it a little more likely that they will be selected to be damaged when the ship is hit, as most internals have 10 hit points. They have 11, and so are more likely to be hit than if they had only 10.

How about if the different crew quarters levels provided maintenance bonuses and penalties? You know, you're more likely to take care of the ship when you're taken care of yourself Hmm... what bonuses would you suggest?

How can the Religious Talisman be placed on satellites or drones?It can't at present. If only we could just make our own list of vehicle sizes allowed and such.

Iron armor is as strong as titanium? What ever happened to magical races getting weak armor and strong shields? Now everything's pretty much the same only you have 3 copies of everything They do have weaker armor. Their armors have 10% fewer hit points than equivalent levels of Physical race armor. You think I should make them even weaker?

Emissive Armor III is in the general group Advanced Armor Engineering while the other Emissive Armors are in just plain Armor... and what's with those absurd tech requirements?!? level 60 of Advanced Armor?!?Emissive Armor is currently not available in the mod. I added a 0 to the end of their tech req to do this without having to delete them. I am not yet sure what I will do with EA, so I just modded it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The group thing is a typo, probably resulting from hasty find-replace methods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Why are there cloaking devices for mines if mines get built-in level 10 cloaks?They don't get built in cloaks. Look closely: the number of abilities is set to 0, so they have no built in abilities in-game. I just did not want to delete the ability lines in case I later decided to give them built-in cloaking again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Point defense weapons don't list their to-hit bonuses (and weren't you one of the ones saying those bonuses were too high? )Oopsie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have not yet decided what I am going to do with PDCs. They are currently split into 2 Groups, the ones that target fighters only and the ones that target seekers only. Fighters at least have a lot more hitpoints from armor components, so the PDC might actually need that high bonus to be able to do anything to them.

The Neutron Cannon (BP) is kind of useless since the Neutron Cannon (SS) will already take out Boarding Parties - since the Boarding Parties have the boarding Defense ability as well as attack!True. They were useful before I added boarding defense to a lot of comps to make them susceptible to Mental Shredders and such. I will remove the Neutron Cannon (BP).

I have an idea for plague bombs... give them a huge minus to hit, representing the chance of the plague spreading! Maybe even multiple levels of plague bombs with different chances of infection...Interesting... I shall consider this further.