idea about newbie guide . plz share your opinions

[Boron]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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don't you agree that pretender sc's which conquer indies get maximum xp level too fast ?

No, I don't agree, since I'm pretty sure that the _only_ five star unit I've ever seen is Orion.

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well your vq is level 5 really fast too in general

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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only the most fierce and strong and successful warriors ( those who killed most enemies ) had a chance to become leaders , later kings .

Experience doesn't represent leadership ability.

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no but it was a requirement . it still is .
there is a figure of speech in german : von der pike auf dienen . unfortunately i don't know what the correct american figure of speech for that is .
so if anyone can translate that plz do it .
i try to describe what i mean :
you start your career as soldier as a basic soldier . once you haven proven worthy you get a low leader .
even without military skill you can get a midlevel leader through valor .
the main assessment factor for that are the kills achieved .
in ancient barbarian kingdoms physical weak sons were often even murdered if they were first successor to the throne and a more adept other son was available .
so the ability to kill is a must for becoming a leader , leadership abilities are only a good benifit but no crucial requirement .

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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war is not about hitting as many enemies as possible but killing as many as possible .

Your ability in combat is certainly about hitting as many enemies as possible. As you hit more enemies, ie, as you are involved in more combats, you will become better at it.

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true but see below

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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a shortbow archer can hit a heavy armored soldier 10 times but he doesn't even scratch him . then the armored soldier is in range and kills the archer .

So what? That archer managed to hit _10 times_. That's quite an accomplishment, and he would certainly become a better archer after that.

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the archer managed to hit 10 times but he is DEAD .
new modern , even more clear example : i take ww 2 cause i love that era for squad level tactical combat , you can simply replace it by any modern war :
the ability to hit is nice but as long as you can't kill what you hit it is irrelevant .

the russian KW/KV 1 series had so thick armor that it could only be penetrated long range through the 8,8 flak cannon .
so when the germans met the first KW/KV 1 when raiding russia in 1941 when the Pz III ( german mbt 1939-1943 ) shot at them at e.g. 1000/500 meters distance they had a really high hitting ratio because they had better targetting optics and the crews were better skilled .
but even the side / rear armor of the KW/KV 1 was so strong that it even couldn't be penetrated by the newer 5cm KwK's from the newer Pz III models at normal combat ranges .
the russian KW/KV 1 vice versa penetrated even the front armor of the Pz III at far combat ranges . although the Pz III landed probably something like 90% hits and the KW/KV 1 only like 50% he destroyed 1 Pz III with almost every hit while vice versa it was impossible .

so hitting is a requirement but it doesn't guarantee success = making a kill .

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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so i still can't see why getting xp only for killing doesn't make sense in pc games

You've used a double negative in this sentence, so it's kind of hard to figure out what you mean.

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sorry i meant i still would prefer the d2 lod / nwn xp system with xp for kills / shared for party , bonus xp for the killer .

edit : typo

[ July 29, 2004, 23:27: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Boron]

something back to topic

[qb]Tramplers
Units with the Trample ability require a certain amount of finesse. A good group of tramplers can absolutely trash an enemy formation - but should those same tramplers rout they will trash your own forces as they flee! A common mistake after seeing this behavior (and probably losing most of an army and some commanders) is to put tramplers off on the side of a battle field so that if they flee they will be able to move away without crushing any friendly units. But this is foolish given that fighting almost always gravitates to the center of the battlefield.

The trick to using trample units is to just make sure that they don't break. The most effective way to do this is to manipulate their group morale by adding many high morale units to their group. This will insure that they stay in the fight even when they start getting wounded and killed. Of course you will also want your priests on hand casting SoC and Fanaticism.
[\qb]

you could add that 2 of the best tramplers are undead , behemoths + carrion beast tramplers .
they don't need any backup and can never rout because of morale 50 .
iirc in an older thread was found out that a 3:1 ratio of morale boost troops / trampler is enough as long as the boost troops aren't damaged severely too .
if you have long range bows who will hit an enemy in the first round of combat ( mans longbowmen e.g. or ulmish arlabests ) you can mix them into the tramplers and give them no battle orders .
the tramplers are then set by default to attack closest and the archers to fire closest .
as long as the archers suffer no casualities even if all tramplers get slaughtered they don't rout .
independent archers are always set to fire closest : so put a few high prot high morale troops with hold orders before the archer/trampler group . they will catch all indy missile fire .
since indy fliers are so uncommon these battle order can defeat 95% of indeps with almost no casualities .

What is this talk about me? I've been around, I just don't have time all the time to post. Though I am still around, like the Gestapo with a brick in a sock waiting for people to step out of line.



As for the QR's, a certain unnamed developer is on vacation (good for him) and I am waiting for clarification so the QR's are relatively accurate as I can get them before everyone comes with the little mistakes that drive me mad. The other two (SCQR and MIQR) latest Versions with all updated information are waiting to be PDF'd (or might be already PDF'd, my Email is being annoying with Spamfilters) and will be sent out as soon as they are satisfactoraliy "perfect".

[Edi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
No, I don't agree, since I'm pretty sure that the _only_ five star unit I've ever seen is Orion.

Now that was a surprise! To me anyway. I've played Dom2 a lot less than you and most others here have, but I have seen a couple of 5 star units. Antrax is especially easy to punch up to 5 stars in a really short time, and my friend got a Machaka Black Sorcerer (ranbdom pick water) to 5 stars in something like 50 turns. Gave it Ring of Regen and Pendant of Luck and loosed it first on indies and later used it to singlehandedly wipe out rather large enemy forces (AI, yes, but still).

Of course, I suppose it's much harder to keep SCs or thugs alive long enough in MP as opposed to SP or co-op games against the AI as we've been playing.

Edi

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
There is no perfect XP system: Your great SWG system, for instance, neglects the value of support characters.

I agree with the "no perfect system" part of this, and with the rest of the post, but I feel that I must point out something that you've overlooked, either through lack of familiarity with SWG (which has many, mnay flaws as a game I admit, else I'd still be playing it), forgetfulness (happens to you a LOT), or deliberately so as to not be inconvenienced by it. That something is that SWG "support" characters do get XPs for noncombat activities. Virtually everything you do in the game can garner XPs for the appropriate character (ie: provided they have skill in the area of what they're doing). Medics get XPs for healing, crafters get XPs for crafting, et cetera. That part of the SWG game, at least, was fairly well thought out. Balancing the game, OTOH, was a disaster ...

[Pickles]

"Paper and Pencil RPGs such as Runequest, AD&D and the like certainly never insisted that a character make a kill to get experience, or 1st level mages would never reach lvl 2; "

Actually when I played AD&D 18 years ago this is what we happened but our mage got to 4th level when we were 1st by getting xp for putting on a magic ring! Ah the sheer madness of the thing..

"I'd suggest that your exposure to RPGs, and to computer games, is somewhat more limitted than you might like to believe. "

Well some of us have probably been playing RPG since before he was born...

Pickles

[ July 30, 2004, 09:27: Message edited by: Pickles ]

[liga]

Going back to main topics:

I think there are 2 things that people playing dom2 needs ... and two level:

things: rules and guides
level: newbies and expert

Usually (and also dom2) games provides in the box the rules for newbies, some games also the rules for experts and few of them also guides for newbies.

We can try to write a very usefull document keeping this level in minds:

we can just try to complete the rules of the manual with all the kind of informations newbies needs and than also a "in depth" look for expert.

Also with the guides we could just try to write a sort of newbies strategy guide (just telling the fondamental things a pleyer must do or not do) and than a in-depth guide.

I think we can use (and rewrite) the manual addenda just to cover the rules (both newbies and expert) and try to write a strategy guide (both for newbies and expert).

For each chapter I was thinking a sort of brief description and than a box (expert box) with formulas and details ... the same for the strategies.

In the guide we can concentrate on two things: general strategies and race/theme specific, on both level (basic=newbies, and expert).

Obviously we have to keep in mind and use all the usefull documents are already avaible on the net.

Some more suggestion ?

good play
Liga

PS. I'm still updating my Manula Addenda with all the suggestions/notes your are giving me in that post and also in other ... I things it could be still usefull, expecially to peolple tha don't have too much time to spend searching the forum ... I hope to realease a new Versione (1.1) before the end of that month