Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Cainehill]

NTJedi said:

Actually NO, the vampire queen was Nerf wacked because she was available to multiple nations. As a result multiple nations would more frequently choose the vampire queen. The issue being discussed only exists if the host chooses to include this one nation and chooses to not mod the nation.

Yes, the VQ was available to everyone - but it was also what made Ermor so overpowered, because Ermor could take _all_ negative scales, high dominion, and have the VQ as the most whacked out SC pretender in the game.

And for ratraping's sake - if you're saying that a nation (or _TWO_ in at least one era) needs to be modded or deliberately left out, you're admitting there's a problem.

Some of your comments have been ludicrous. "Oh, the newbies need a couple strong nations so they don't quit playing Dominions after getting whacked in MP"?

Yep, guess that's why chess, go, civilizations, etc, all have a couple over-powered sides to help newbies get into the game. Errr - with chess, is that black or f-ing white?

In dominions, the newbies wouldn't know to _choose_ the nations, and they wouldn't know the cheesy mandatory strategy required to do well with them.

Even if they did - it wouldn't do squat to help them learn the game, because W9F9 Vanheim/Helheim plays so differently from other nations.

As far as the "It can be modded" argument : a lot of people (including you in the past, I believe) haven't wanted to play using mods - some people don't trust them, other people don't like to get playing experience that isn't going to match a "real" (ie, unmodded or other, more standardly, modding) game.

It can be left out of games? Yep, _EVERY_ person who plays the game should be forced to learn and use map commands so other players (and the AI opponents) can't choose the nations, and then get into arguments with players who say, "Hey, how come I can't select Vanheim? They're the only nation I like playing!?!?"

The situation ought to be fixed, _IN THE VANILLA, STANDARD GAME_, instead of being left in because it's working "as designed", and the law of unintended consequences be damned. (Changes to gold income, supplies, shield mechanics, research speeds, dormant pretenders, not picking national fortification, etc, all having added to the problem inherent with glamour (mirror images) and stealth already having been somewhat overpowered.)

Then, as far as making things easier for newbies in SP or MP? Give _players_ the same sort of creation option that already exists for AIs, only reversed. Setting a player to expert would give _fewer_ pretender creation points, while novice would give extra points, possibly some bonuses to research, resources, etc. That way they have an easier time trying to keep up, with more than just a SPECIFIC nation or two, and are learning more of the game itself rather than a single overpowered uberbless cheese strategy.

Bah.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmmm some of these comments are long drawn out discussions of what should be done, and probably would be done, IF it was agreed that anything was broken.

[tombom]

Gandalf Parker said:
Hmmm some of these comments are long drawn out discussions of what should be done, and probably would be done, IF it was agreed that anything was broken.

Every single person in this thread has agreed that Vanheim is overpowered, even the people arguing against a change.

[Edi]

Gandalf, with the exception of you and NT Jedi, there seems to be a consensus that Vanheim and Helheim are overpowered. Some of those in the consensus for some reason or another do not mind the current situation, but 90+% of the rest think it should be addressed. Sounds like agreement to me.

Edi

[Edi]

I should add that even many of the less experienced people who came into the thread skeptical of the issue have been changing their positions as soon as they started testing the issue and running the numbers in practice, which in my book is an even more powerful argument that there is indeed a problem.

Edi

[Morkilus]

I know this will end up sounding like a "me too" post, but I agree there is a problem and it should be fixed in a patch. Getting a multiplayer community to agree to a mod is much more difficult than grabbing a mod from the subforum in order to whack the AI.

And please stop using arguments like "well, it's not just a MP game" and "ban Vanheim if you don't like it". If your arguments worked, you wouldn't have to repeat them word for word every time someone shoots them down. So my post isn't completely useless, I suggest some of the Amos mods from the mod forum for powerful, fun nations to try against the AI.

[Endoperez]

I agree in that Helhirdings are very good for the price. I'm not sure how good, exactly, they are. They are better than White Centaurs. I'm not sure if they are good enough to beat everything and everyone.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I personally like having a range of nations, some of which are weaker than the average, and some of which are stronger. I like it that some nations are harder to play with than others. I like it that some require more delicacy, some require more subtlety, and some require more micromanagement.

I also like it that some require less thought, less subtlety, and less micromanagement. Sometimes you just want to play. Sometimes you want the other guy to have an advantage. Sometimes you want a newb to have a chance. Sometimes you want to play against an AI who has a chance of beating you.

I just like having the sheer breadth of the current game. If anything, instead of taking away, let's add to the game. More nations, more spells, more pretenders. Let's add a nation that is even more blunt and overpowered than Vanheim.

I'd argue, also, that even Vanheim isn't obviously overpowered--it takes a bit of thinking, familiarity with the game, some trial and error, and some puttering with the math to come up with the overkill Vanheim strategy. Or else reading a lot of posts.

I vote against the nerf bat.

Now, in keeping with the whole thread: Vans are for wussies. I taunt Van players. Your mother was a rabbit and your father smelled of elderberries. You Vans, ha on you! I Squish you! Ha ha! Yes! Take that!!

[DrPraetorious]

I don't think the glam positions are overpowered either. I would say that people who think there is a problem are more likely to post than those who do not, and that opinion is very much divided.

And please stop using arguments like "well, it's not just a MP game" and "ban Vanheim if you don't like it". If your arguments worked, you wouldn't have to repeat them word for word every time someone shoots them down.

While I agree that the first argument is vaccuous - I have not seen anyone "shoot it down," or even address it cogently.

As for the second argument - it is entirely sound, since there are a sizeable number of people who play MP and think the glamour positions are fine as they are. Strong, certainly - but so are many other positions. So, if your subgroup thinks the glamour nations are broken, just close them off. There's no reason to trouble everyone else who is enjoying the game as-is just fine.

[UninspiredName]

Um, I'm probably missing something, but would it take any kind of map commands whatsoever to refuse to put Vanheim in your game?

EDIT: And since the topic is beginning to veer to the Vampire Queen...

It seems to me, the real issue is that now, stuff that boosts a supercombatant like flying, regeneration, ethereal, summon allies, and immortality is being taken much more seriously than in Dom2, and Vampire Queen had so many of them. She still does, but it slammed her down to 50 points per path, dominion 1, (which seems to be a contradiction among other human, dominion 1 units) ethereality was nixed altogether, and what started out as a buffed human mage, a Frost Father more thematic for her paths, became the most expensive pretender in the game and lost a very valuable SC ability. If you look at the Lich (not so much Master Lich) and Ghost King, they both had a bit of what the VQ had, and they both got their cost jacked up corresponding to that 'bit'. Really, it seems to me, this whole thing is in retaliation to the SC craze of Dom2. It's not so much different from the Sphinx becoming truly immobile.