Indep. Mages

[Sombre]

Well the idea of the NI maps wasn't so much to preserve strategic balance, more to keep the focus on national troops and to see if it would improve the AI. With NI certain nations play quite differently, since they lack the generic cheap indy troops, or the ability to crank out indy knights and longbows making up for lack of missile and cavalry in their own lineup.

The biggest difference is with the AI though. Now the large number of castles it likes to crank is actually a good strategy since you basically don't get troops without them.

[Kuritza]

Sorceresses are really good, especially for nonastral or astral-1 nations. You can recruit a couple of them, then script one to cast light of the northern star and have them all cast soul slay. Really, really nice.
Or mass them and just have them cast stellar cascades. Air 2 also gives you a mage to cast wind guide.
Lizard shamans can be used for magic dueling - against tien chi mages or gods with low to average astral. 5-6 lizard mages with pearls, scripted for a magic duel, have a good chance of success. Or just curse enemy SCs.
Onyx sorceresses can be scripted for dust to dust. Give them a booster and they are capable of controlling the dead, too.
All shamans can craft boots of rejuvenation, empower one or trade for a booster and they can also craft rings of regeneration and vine shields - very potent items.

Indie mages expand your possibilites greatly, they just require some creativity to be effective.

[UncleYee]

I totally agree with the OP. Indep mages are a complete waste of money. The only reasons you'd ever possibly bother recruiting these bozos would be if:

You need them to branch into a magic path your nation lacks, thus opening up a trillion new strategy options for you.

Or, your best stuff is capital-only, and now you have the option to recruit mages without interrupting the flow of your capital recruiting.

Or, you want more mages to craft more items. Or do more research. Or cast more summons. Or cast more site searches.

Or, the province with the indep mages is nearby, and a castle is farther away.

Or, you want more mages with your armies, for varied casting and/or redundancy just in case.

Or, even if you do have access to A2 in your nation, maybe it's on a 350G flagship mage with 2 (or 3) other paths, and you'd prefer to just buy a much cheaper illusionist if you only need him to cast Air spells.

Or, you think variety is fun.

But other than that and any other reasons I can't think of right now, I don't even know why indep mages are in the game. What a waste.

[Tuidjy]

Uncle Yee is absolutely right... there is no point to indy mages.
Except in the cases he listed. And a few more, but why bother,
they're useless anyway.

I am so ashamed of them, that very often, I assign 50 patrollers
to make sure no player laughs at me when he finds out what I am
building in that castle...

[Methel]

Now now uncle, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if others used those as researchers. I see the uses of those if you need the magic paths (as you might have learned if you read the post) But are the usual indeps. worth the price for a sub par mage, or is it better to save up and build another castle for making you're (usually) better national mages?

[Shovah32]

I tend to only use the site based indy mages as regular ones are generally pathetic.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im abit tossed back by comments like "complete waste of money" or "no point". It would seem to me that such extremes must refer to certain games. Personally I love finding certain indie mages whether they are site or poptype. But I wouldnt declare it as an absolute because I know that its also based on liking to play Solo and really large maps. I dont slow down to take advantage of it on an MP small-map blitz so there they would be worthless to me.

Side Thought:
Has anyone tested to see if poptypes are affected by game settings? I know that Era affects poptypes, and Im guessing that it affects sites. I would think that magic level of the game might affect sites. Im wondierng if setting magic high or low affects poptypes. Would low give you more infantry indepts and high give more amazons?

[Gandalf Parker]

Methel said:
Now now uncle, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if others used those as researchers. I see the uses of those if you need the magic paths (as you might have learned if you read the post) But are the usual indeps. worth the price for a sub par mage, or is it better to save up and build another castle for making you're (usually) better national mages?

There are times when I really need blood or fire mages. I dont mind finding the amazons that give blood/fire mages. And the griffon riders have been known to be handy.

Not so much with the air/astral Amazons. Sometimes with the death ones. The water/nature not so much but I like building a temple there to get the combo mage/priest to move ahead with my armies, and the pegasus riders.

The indept shamans can be handy since some of them have stealth.

Of course all of this would be because of the nations I like to play as far as what is or isnt useful. But as far as researchers? I think I only would build a lab to get sages for that.

[Edi]

I actually like most of the indie mages. True that none of them can hold a candle to dedicated national mages with similar paths, but for e.g. nations that don't get nature picks, most indies are absolutely invaluable to get it started, since even a N1 mage can find a lot of important nature sites (such as the various Enchantress sites).

Of the Amazons:

• Garnets provide cheap blood hunters and can provide a blood magic jumpstart to nations without blood. Gryphon Riders are expensive and of limited use, but fire immune infantry is always useful. Especially if you fight someone who likes barbecuing your troops.
• Jade Amazons have the most powerful mages and can provide W2, N2 and D1, depending on random picks and absolutely kick-*** sacred cavalry with the right bless.
• The Onyx Amazons have H2 priests that have a 50% D1 and 10% E1 on top of that AND mountain movement, plus their sacreds aren't too shabby, they just tire quickly. The sorceress is a guaranteed Death searcher for non-death nations and rare ones can get D2, which can open forging options. Decently armored, speedy mountaineer infantry, which can be good in EA games.
• Crystal Amazons are the worst. They provide guaranteed astral and A1, which can help find some air sites (Silver Order if you're lucky) and increase air income, but that's about it. Lizards are more common and also give astral, so the only use is for air really. And speedy archers, which most indies aren't, but not comparable to woodsmen for movement options.

Druids, Lizards and the various Tribal shamans all have N1 and possible other picks that (if they manifest) may or may not be useful depending on national magics.

I expect poptype indies to be more useful in longer games and large maps, depending on site frequencies and difficulty of research.