Qm said

[Edi]

If animal leadership were a separate category of leadership, that would solve the problem nicely since you would need specialized commanders to handle the elephants, which means falling behind on research or something else.

[Xietor]

Having animal leadership may unfairly penalize Pangaea however.

Maybe requiring Elephant Handlers to handle elephants would work, and give them a leadership of 10. And it is very thematic as well. The average leader likely would have no clue how to handle them in battle. It would require specialized training.

[Kristoffer O]

Xietor said:
Having animal leadership may unfairly penalize Pangaea however.

Maybe requiring Elephant Handlers to handle elephants would work, and give them a leadership of 10. And it is very thematic as well. The average leader likely would have no clue how to handle them in battle. It would require specialized training.

Actually there is a howdah with crew and another guy who sits on the neck of the elephant with a wedge and a hammer ready to split the elephants skull, should she go berserk. So the elephant is full of handlers. That aside it might be a good idea.

One could make it a commander without command ability, but that would make it quite rare, since most people would prefer a smart mage to a stupid beast

Pangaea could easily get animal leadership on most commanders without thematic repercussions

[Velusion]

Kristoffer O said:

Pangaea could easily get animal leadership on most commanders without thematic repercussions

I like this idea. There are lots of "handeler" leaders that don't get built very often because you don't really need them (Abysian Serpent Handlers, Pythium Hydra Trainers). If you HAD to have these leaders to handle wild animals it would be thematic and help with the elephant problem.

You might also want to increase the power of some of the other animals thought to help make up for the limitations if you do this (not the elephants though).

[Xietor]

Hmmm,

way off topic, but if we had animal leadership, might a certain lion that pangaea could summon at conj 4 have animal leadership rather than being a magic being?

One of the issues pangaea has with its summons(vine ogres, Kithaironic Lions(should get 2 not 1 btw)(mated pair thing), is requiring magic leadership for them.

Having Pangaea's Commanders have master animal leadership(and switching vine ogres/vinemen to animal leadership) would allow them to lead the legions of vinemen, wolves(call of the wild)lions etc.

[Kristoffer O]

Sounds reasonable.

[sum1lost]

Kristoffer O said:
Sounds reasonable.

Wouldn't that possibly result in other nations not being able to use vinemen as effectively?

[Velusion]

Xietor said:

Having Pangaea's Commanders have master animal leadership(and switching vine ogres/vinemen to animal leadership) would allow them to lead the legions of vinemen, wolves(call of the wild)lions etc.

Vinemen aren't animals. Why not just give Pangaea animal AND magical leadership abilities?

Of course - this change is pretty far reaching, assuming we are all talking about what I'm thinking. Namely requiring anything marked "animal" to be lead by a leader with an appropriate ability (Beast-Mastery?). Are we talking about a game wide change or just a localized fix for elephants?

IF it is game wide many nations would need to be changed to insure that some leader of theirs could actually control summoned animals.

This also would innately make animals weaker - as they would be limited as to who could lead them. One easy way to counter this is to slightly buff most of the animal spells/recruits (decreasing gems/gold cost, increasing the amount summoned, making them stronger). Another thought it to make most summoned animals come with a leader (aka call of the Wilds).

This would be a sorta big undertaking but I think would be a good overall change.

[krpeters]

Xietor said:
Having animal leadership may unfairly penalize Pangaea however.

If we had a seperate animal leadership category, shouldn't all of Pangaea's commanders automatically get animal leadership? That would be very thematic.

The animal leadership category is a good idea anyway. Nature mages should get a bonus (much as death mages get undead leadership)

[TwoBits]

Remember, we're talking early game rush issues here. It'll take a few turns to research Conj 3 (for Call of the Winds/Call of the Wild) before that uber animal commander could be available to summon, presuming the said rusher goes straight for it, without researching anything else first. So even if your black-hawk/werewolf leader had an animal command rating of 40, he wouldn't be available for a while anyway.

By mid and late game, that 50+ elephant/chariot horde will be just so much expensive barbecue, unless backed up by some serious magic (I can see how a load of elephants with Army of Lead might be very problematic, for example). An army of archers with Fire Arrows set to "fire at large enemy monsters" should melt them away pretty fast, etc..

At least that's my two pence worth.


On the topic of a bless rush, here's my idea for a future patch/Dom 4 change - make the effectiveness of the bless dependent on a combination of the dominion level plus the casting priest level.

If the total is negative (say a level one priest operating in minus two dominion = total of one), your sacreds only get the +2 moral bonus.

At neutral, you get the moral bonus, plus the level 4 bonuses (+2 attack for Fire, etc.).

You'd need say a total of 5 or so (think a first level priest in a province with positive dominion of 4, or a third level priest in a dominion 2 province) to unlock that level 9 bless goodness.

This way, a quick bless-rush might not be possible. The attacker would need to pause more often, while preaching or spend money on temples. That, or forgo his bad-*** bless while moving into enemy territory/dominion.

Thematically, this makes sense. Surely a God's blessing should be more potent in a province where his belief is strong. Or where he has a mighty priest of the faith in operation.

Also, it might encourage ways to creatively boost priest levels (think unique items, Crystal Shields, Power of the Spheres, etc.) too.

Plus, it makes the whole 'dominion' part of Dominions that much more important (imagine that Helheim player debating whether to go for that double-9 bless, or instead choose to pump up his dominion to make his lesser bless more viable).

I like them two cents!