Why Not Digitial Distribution?

[Edi]

Innocence, suffice it to say that this issue has been discussed enough times already. You don't actually have any statistical evidence to back your claims up and you do not know all the details on how this goes with Dominions 3. Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format. End of story.

The thing is that demos are precisely for checking out whether one likes a game and if a demo is good, usually the game is worth waiting for even if it takes a week or two.

[Innocence]

Edi said:Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The hole in part of the logic is the lack of trust in the Dom3 copy protection, which is excellent. And when you don't have to worry about piracy, the rest of the why-not-to arguments are invalid, since they ultimately build on the first dogma that releasing the manual in digital form will make piracy ruin this game (which might be true if it wasn't for the protection build in by Illwinter).

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format

And "640Kb of RAM is enough for everyone" I've read those statements before, repeating them wont make them any more right.

But I agree that trying to argue with logic here seems futile - it probably is, as you say, "end of story" . Clearly, if other small/one man companies do this successfully it's obvious that this will never work for ShrapnelGames [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon02.gif[/img]

Even in our small "group", half the people interrested say they "wont buy it right now" (which pretty much means they'll never get their act together and order it) because of how difficult the game is to come by. And if your friends wont play the game, there goes the chance for a nice relaxed multiplayer experience, meaning you'll feel tempted to skip the game yourself. I recon the picture is much the same in the rest of the world.

For what it's worth though, yes I'll likely end up biting the bullet and buy the game on mail-order just like most people here - but under protest, futile as it may be [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/VikingHelm.gif[/img]

On an ironic sidenote: Illwinter is a Swedish Development team. "Sweden" as in "Europe", "Sweden" as in "two hours of ferry transport from where I live"

[MaxWilson]

Innocence said:

The hole in part of the logic is the lack of trust in the Dom3 copy protection, which is excellent. And when you don't have to worry about piracy, the rest of the why-not-to arguments are invalid, since they ultimately build on the first dogma that releasing the manual in digital form will make piracy ruin this game (which might be true if it wasn't for the protection build in by Illwinter).

I'd be very interested to know what data you base this conclusion on, that piracy isn't an issue for Dominions3 because the copy protection is so good. I'm sympathetic to the anti-copy protection camp (my favorite e-book publisher is Baen because they make e-books totally hassle-free, to the point of simply distributing books as .html files in a .zip) but I'm also conscious that whether this is a smart business decision depends very much upon your product and market. What makes you think the built-in copy protection is a better deterrent than the lack of a manual?

-Max

[Innocence]

MaxWilson said:What makes you think the built-in copy protection is a better deterrent than the lack of a manual?

First of all, the lack of a manual can be overcome by dedication. The tutorial is in the demo, lots of info on forums and wikis, and the in-game info is very good. I was up playing the demo in a few days/tried, and while there are some limitations, I doubt the full game is very different. The only way to *really* learn a game is, after all, by playing it. Once that's done, you don't really need the manual.

The brilliance of the Dom3 copy-protection is that it gives false positives - everything seems ok but really isn't. You might be in the middel of an exciting game, one you have invested countless of hours into, and suddently things start to go wrong. Small at first, then more and more severe, until your game is ruined and all your time is in effect wasted. It's like watching an exciting movie and then discover the last 10 minutes are missing (no actually it's much worse than that ).

In essense, *time* is the issue. Time wasted for the player, and time wasted for the hacker programming serial-generatores, which are close to impossible to get right, since the checks are many, spread out through the game, and don't reveal themselves until it's too late.

While a hacker might want to spend a few hours writing a serial-generator, there's no way in Ermor neither he nor anyone else will be willing to spend 100+ hours testing if every serial provided will pass every check, fully knowing that even if they by chance find a working one they'll be in trouble come the next patch

And if you simply don't patch you can wave goodbye to multiplayer - which after all is where these games really shine

So the equation is like this: Would you rather spend $50 one time to get a fully working, guaranteed problem-free gaming experience (not to mention a clean conscience), or would you rather try the freeride, filled with frustrating experinces like abandoned games and wasted precious sparetime (and knowing you haven't contributed a dime to make this rare genre live on)? I believe the answer is obvious

Like I said all this isn't new - it's the way they did it with Stars! (shareware) and it was very successfull in that department too

[Edi]

You're still claiming things without a single shred of evidence. Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window. There are some similarities, but that is all they are.

This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

[Wokeye]

I already have bought the game, but would have bought it digitally if that was possible. Maybe digital distribution is not right for Dom3 at the moment, as suggested - but it is the 'way of the future'. Maybe Dom4?

As for piracy of PC games, read:
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com...?postid=303512
Sums it up nicely, I think.

[Innocence]

Edi said:Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window.

They both use a similar and very effective copy protection scheme. If that's not a similarity then I don't know what it takes. Want proof of effectiveness, go search for other discussions on the Stars! copy protection.

This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

Excuse me, but do you own this forum? You seem very eager to shut down this discussion on the general principle that you find it tedious I've stated a new important issue about this case, and yes, you're probably right that it wont change their descision, but please let other people have their say before you cry out, demanding the discussion be shut down

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, so you'll get it your way

[JimMorrison]

Edi is a hard man, and these forums need discipline, something their mother never gave them. >.>


But seriously, I think that his point ultimately is that it doesn't matter what semi or totally vaid points you bring up - the distribution method of the game will not change because of your arguments.

[Edi]

Innocence said:

They both use a similar and very effective copy protection scheme. If that's not a similarity then I don't know what it takes.

The point apparently sailed right over your head. Similar != same. Your argument assumes that the copy protection for both Stars! and Dominions 3 is the same, when it is only similar, NOT the same. So your argument does not apply directly, yet you're still advancing it as if it did. This is what I and several other people have been trying to explain to you for the past several posts.

Innocence said:
Want proof of effectiveness, go search for other discussions on the Stars! copy protection.

I'll take your word for it that the Stars! copy protection is as effective as you say. It doesn't matter a jot, because it is simply not relevant for this discussion.

Innocence said:

Excuse me, but do you own this forum? You seem very eager to shut down this discussion on the general principle that you find it tedious

No, I don't own the forum, Shrapnel Games does. The reason I was contemplating shutting this discussion down because it's turning out to be a rehash of an issue that has been discussed and resolved already in the past. And not just once, if my memory serves me correctly.

Innocence said:
I've stated a new important issue about this case, and yes, you're probably right that it wont change their descision, but please let other people have their say before you cry out, demanding the discussion be shut down

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, so you'll get it your way

The problem with what you have been saying is not that there is something new, but that there is not and these considerations have already been taken into account and factored into the decision about how to distribute Dominions 3. That's why the decision is not going to change. I believe Tim Brooks also explained this in prior posts.

The thing is that the people on the forums do not have access to all the information that goes into making these decisions. I'm not an employee of Shrapnel or Illwinter, but even so I have a little bit more access than the average forum user due to being a forum moderator and the bug list manager. I have a slightly better picture due to that privileged information, though nowhere near complete. But with the information I do have, taken together with what Tim has said in the past, I feel I can safely say the Shrapnel argument is persuasive.

The problem with this approach is of course that since I cannot divulge what has not been said in public, I can only offer you my word on this issue. Whether you choose to trust that is up to you. I hope that I have generally been forthright enough that my word is sufficient for most people here.

[Zeldor]

Dom3 copy protection is good enough only because it is not popular game, so not huge interest in hacker community.

Most bad selling games are due to well... bad design, not piracy. And most anti-piracy things hit people that buy the game, not hackers. I think that most anti-piracy things [except for normal cdkey] decrease sales.

Dominions targets rather small community. Most people that try it get addicted and buy it. There are of course pirated copies of dom3, but mostly used by people instead of demo or by those that have problems buying it. And digital distribution could help those people. But there may be not enough of them to put all that into motion.